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kieza
2019-10-07, 11:47 PM
Hi all,

I'm working up a set of classes and their associated powers for a game I'm writing, and I'm trying to decide if the flavor for one of them is too...out there.

These are the "animist" classes, which draw their power from spirits--defined here as anthropomorphized personifications of things. There are four of these classes:
--the Druid calls forth the power of the elements (the four classical + plants) and can conjure minor spirits onto the battlefield. (Role: Battlefield control)
--the Shaman calls upon the spirits of the ancestors (not undead, more how they're remembered) and can set them to guide allies. (Role: Support)
--the Skinchanger calls upon the spirits of beasts, taking on bestial forms to attack with ferocity. (Role: Melee damage)
--the Wakener calls upon the spirits of the land, manifesting an area of terrain that bends to their will and opposes their foes. (Role: Tank)

These four classes can choose from a common pool of powers, with 1/4 of the pool being designed for each of the classes in particular: each class has a feature letting them get extra mileage from those powers. However, each class also gets to multiclass "for free" as one of the other animist classes--meaning that any animist character will find at least half of the animist powers useful to them. There's also nothing keeping a character from taking powers that don't synergize with class features if they find them cool. Examples of animist characters include:
--A Druid multiclassed as Shaman, who mostly throws balls of fire and occasionally calls on the spirits of the dead to protect his allies.
--A Druid multiclassed as Skinchanger, who conjures blasts of wind and grows the wings of an eagle.
--A Skinchanger multiclassed as Wakener, who can grow bear claws and turn an area into tundra.

Here's where I'm not sure if the flavor is good:
--The powers intended for the Druid and Shaman are pretty traditional fantasy fare: they're overtly magical, they're cast using magical implements, they involve either throwing balls of fire/conjuring strong winds/summoning roots and vines from the earth, or summoning spirits to attack enemies/empower allies. They also synergize with each other: they use the same primary and secondary abilities, and they're both mostly ranged/area powers.
--The powers for Skinchangers involve growing claws/fangs/antlers/etc. and attacking with them--also standard fantasy fare. These are unarmed melee attacks that can't be used with weapons.
--In order to make the powers for Wakeners synergize with the powers for Skinchangers (because both of them are melee-focused), I want to make the Wakener powers into unarmed attacks (so that the Skinchanger/Wakener hybrid above doesn't have to invest in a weapon for half of their powers). My idea here is that the Wakener can cause magical effects on touch: things like splattering someone with the clinging muck and stinging pests of a swamp, or conveying heatstroke like they'd been in the desert, with a touch--but this is, at the very least, a much rarer fantasy concept.

So here are my questions:
--Does the concept of a weaponless tank character, who channels the spirits of the land, but doesn't "fight" so much as "touch people and cause things to happen to them" have a broad enough appeal?
--The different types of terrain I have in mind are Desert, Forest, Marsh, Mountain, and Tundra. Do Forest and Mountain seem like they have too much thematic overlap with the elements of Plant and Earth? Because those elements are the domain of Druids.
--Does something like Wasteland seem like a better alternative?
--Are there flavorful kinds of terrain that I'm overlooking? I'm aiming for types that aren't "niche" like "underwater."

Particle_Man
2019-10-08, 06:44 AM
Are there any “dudes swinging swords” (or using bows or guns) even as npc mooks? Or are swords and other manufactured weapons not a thing in this setting?

Also, does the terrain using character get to use whatever terrain they are in to power up, or do they have to specialize in a terrain that they may or may not be adventuring in that day? For instance, are they SOL if they are on a boat in the middle of the ocean? What if they are on another plane with no standard terrains (if there is such)?

MoiMagnus
2019-10-08, 06:52 AM
So here are my questions:
--Does the concept of a weaponless tank character, who channels the spirits of the land, but doesn't "fight" so much as "touch people and cause things to happen to them" have a broad enough appeal?
--The different types of terrain I have in mind are Desert, Forest, Marsh, Mountain, and Tundra. Do Forest and Mountain seem like they have too much thematic overlap with the elements of Plant and Earth? Because those elements are the domain of Druids.
--Does something like Wasteland seem like a better alternative?
--Are there flavorful kinds of terrain that I'm overlooking? I'm aiming for types that aren't "niche" like "underwater."

1) Weaponless tank character is fine. From a technical side, as long as you still have reasons to be in melee, the way to survive in melee, and that you have some way to keep opponents adjacent to you so that they just don't ignore you, it's ok. From the appeal side, it heavily depends on the level of realism you want for your game: any land-shaping capacity that would be cool and flashy during fighting would likely be far too useful outside of combat, which mean that you could end up giving only boring powers for balance reasons.

2) For Mountain to feel different from Earth, you need to add emphasis on Volcano or Glacial pics (or both). Forest kind of overlap, but it would feel strange not having it.

3) Note sure about it.

4) Classic suggestions: Rivers? Coast? Underground?
Unorthodox suggestions: Countryside and farms? City? (Summoning the spirit of a city/village could be a class by itself, especially if it includes ruins of long fallen civilizations)

The main problem I can see with this class is more on the concept itself: land-based effects. If it is too dependent from where the fighting happens, it will lose a lot of appeal, since a lot of players hate having their power relying on the DM collaboration to actually work properly (in other words, they don't like the possibility of being stripped out of their powers on a whim or error of the DM). But conversely, if it does not depends at all from where the fighting happens, it kind of lose its uniqueness...

Psyren
2019-10-08, 10:07 AM
Wakener feels like it might have considerable thematic overlap with Druid, especially once you try to distinguish Earth magic and Land magic. In addition, magic that affects terrain is pretty clearly battlefield control. How exactly were you envisioning Wakeners to "tank?"

redwizard007
2019-10-08, 10:38 AM
What about making the wakener's powers terrain based but not terrain dependent. Basically, instead of using elements like the druid you alter how you feel or hour foes are affected by those elements.

Touch a foe and he sinks several feet into the ground and takes penalties to movement and maybe attacks and defense as well. It's as if, for him, the stone becomes mud or the ice becomes snow, but everyone else acts normally.

Brush a foe with your skin and his becomes inflexible as stone elementals focus on him. Major Dex penalties

You could also add riders to other abilities. If a foe was struck by lightning, you can cause it to slam him prone. If he is burned, make him float away as smoke. If struck by cold, he takes damage when he next strikes something...

kieza
2019-10-08, 02:09 PM
Also, does the terrain using character get to use whatever terrain they are in to power up, or do they have to specialize in a terrain that they may or may not be adventuring in that day? For instance, are they SOL if they are on a boat in the middle of the ocean? What if they are on another plane with no standard terrains (if there is such)?


The main problem I can see with this class is more on the concept itself: land-based effects. If it is too dependent from where the fighting happens, it will lose a lot of appeal, since a lot of players hate having their power relying on the DM collaboration to actually work properly (in other words, they don't like the possibility of being stripped out of their powers on a whim or error of the DM). But conversely, if it does not depends at all from where the fighting happens, it kind of lose its uniqueness...

I think I might have been unclear about how this would work. This:


Touch a foe and he sinks several feet into the ground and takes penalties to movement and maybe attacks and defense as well. It's as if, for him, the stone becomes mud or the ice becomes snow, but everyone else acts normally.

Is more or less how the Marsh powers would work, for example. But let me give some more details:

These Terraforming powers (name is WIP) would not, by themselves, create zones of terrain. They would cause damage and/or status effects that are thematically associated with the terrain in question:
--Desert: radiant/fire damage from heat and sun exposure. Dazzled, blinded conditions from bright light. Weakened condition from heatstroke.
--Marsh: poison damage from fetid water/stinging insects. Slowed, snared conditions from clinging muck.
--Mountain: untyped damage from avalanches/falls. Also forced movement.
--Forest: not thoroughly thought out, but one concept is that the powers drain health to the user.
--Tundra: cold damage from, well, cold. Immobilized/restrained conditions from freezing solid/being stuck in snow and ice.

However, the Wakener would have a class feature interacting with these powers. Specifically, they would have the ability to create a zone of manifested terrain overlaid onto existing terrain, with the following properties:
--When created, the Wakener chooses one of the five terrain keywords above. The zone is attuned to that type of terrain, and has an effect based on the type. (e.g. a Forest-attuned zone would be full of brush and trees that grant cover to allies.)
--Enemies in the zone are Challenged by the Wakener (they have penalties to attack other creatures) if not Challenged by another creature, because the land itself is working against them. (The other tank classes also have a class feature causing or interacting with the Challenged condition.)
--Although the Terraforming powers are unarmed/touch-based, the Wakener may use powers with the attuned keyword to target any creature in the zone, regardless of range.
--When the Wakener uses a power with the attuned keyword while inside the zone, the zone gets larger (up to a limit).

The end result is that the Wakener is really good at challenging enemies, but only if they stay put and grow their zone. If they decide to move, they have to create a new zone, and the old one goes away. The new zone starts out at the smaller size and has to be grown again. The same thing happens if they decide they want a different type of terrain. The other tank classes are way more mobile and flexible in how they can challenge, but they can't handle groups that are nearly as large.

redwizard007
2019-10-08, 02:28 PM
I think I might have been unclear about how this would work. This:



Is more or less how the Marsh powers would work, for example. But let me give some more details:

These Terraforming powers (name is WIP) would not, by themselves, create zones of terrain. They would cause damage and/or status effects that are thematically associated with the terrain in question:
--Desert: radiant/fire damage from heat and sun exposure. Dazzled, blinded conditions from bright light. Weakened condition from heatstroke.
--Marsh: poison damage from fetid water/stinging insects. Slowed, snared conditions from clinging muck.
--Mountain: untyped damage from avalanches/falls. Also forced movement.
--Forest: not thoroughly thought out, but one concept is that the powers drain health to the user.
--Tundra: cold damage from, well, cold. Immobilized/restrained conditions from freezing solid/being stuck in snow and ice.

However, the Wakener would have a class feature interacting with these powers. Specifically, they would have the ability to create a zone of manifested terrain overlaid onto existing terrain, with the following properties:
--When created, the Wakener chooses one of the five terrain keywords above. The zone is attuned to that type of terrain, and has an effect based on the type. (e.g. a Forest-attuned zone would be full of brush and trees that grant cover to allies.)
--Enemies in the zone are Challenged by the Wakener (they have penalties to attack other creatures) if not Challenged by another creature, because the land itself is working against them. (The other tank classes also have a class feature causing or interacting with the Challenged condition.)
--Although the Terraforming powers are unarmed/touch-based, the Wakener may use powers with the attuned keyword to target any creature in the zone, regardless of range.
--When the Wakener uses a power with the attuned keyword while inside the zone, the zone gets larger (up to a limit).

The end result is that the Wakener is really good at challenging enemies, but only if they stay put and grow their zone. If they decide to move, they have to create a new zone, and the old one goes away. The new zone starts out at the smaller size and has to be grown again. The same thing happens if they decide they want a different type of terrain. The other tank classes are way more mobile and flexible in how they can challenge, but they can't handle groups that are nearly as large.

This is really cool. It's almost more of a controller/debuffer than a traditional tank, but it fills the same role. I'm really interested in seeing it develop.

kieza
2019-10-08, 02:40 PM
This is really cool. It's almost more of a controller/debuffer than a traditional tank, but it fills the same role. I'm really interested in seeing it develop.

I've always thought that tanks were a sort of specialized controller/debuffer: unlike more general ones, their effects revolve around:
--You should attack me instead of ignoring me.
--If you do attack someone other than me, I'll do something nasty to you.
--And if you do attack me, I can take it.

In any case, I'm trying to create this kind of overlap in the animist classes: for example, the Druid is mainly a controller, because it floods the battlefield with summoned sprites that make opportunity attacks, but also deals some pretty good AoE damage. The Shaman is a healer/buffer that also has some control. The Skinwalker is a damage-dealer that's tough enough to do some tanking (but doesn't have explicit tank features).

And if I get the Wakener right, it'll be a tank that can buff allies, too. (e.g. by providing cover).

Pauly
2019-10-08, 03:43 PM
The wakener sounds like it has a lot in common with the D&D monk class. What you’re really doing is replacing quivering palm with a variety of other touches.

My suggestion is to make the effects generic, but how they manifest depend on the element the wakener is specialist in. For example the skin hardening could be due to stone, ice, wood, wrapped in vines etc.
on top of that then there could be unique bonuses that happen if the wakener is in an area where their specialty exist.
In addition each of the 5 elements could have a few unique powers if you want.

That would also encourage wakeners to multiclass into multiple elements (eg mountain and ice, marsh and forest).

kieza
2019-10-08, 04:09 PM
The wakener sounds like it has a lot in common with the D&D monk class. What you’re really doing is replacing quivering palm with a variety of other touches.

I'm afraid I don't really see the parallels, aside from "makes unarmed attacks with special effects." The wakener doesn't have fast movement, unarmored defense, ki, or really any of their other class features, and if it did, they would detract from the "uses spirits of the land" flavor that the wakener has. For that matter, is a monk really a tank in D&D? It's been a while, but I remember them being a little squishier than that.

Regardless--I'm looking for thoughts on the flavor rather than the mechanics (which I've detailed a little further above).

redwizard007
2019-10-08, 04:20 PM
I dont think its what you are going for, but I have this mental image of a witch doctor or voodoo priest whispering into his hands and then litterally smacking his target with a curse, or jabbing a talisman into their armor to mark him for the spirits.

Similarly, calling up a mist or light wind around himself. Perhaps vines stretching down from the trees. Spanish moss catching arrows fired from afar... His shadow turning to that of a bear and striking out at an enemy while fumes seep up from the ground and gag anyone too close to him. Even the light of the moon shining ggv brighter as he strikes out but fading as he dodges back into cover...

This could be fun.

kieza
2019-10-08, 05:12 PM
I dont think its what you are going for, but I have this mental image of a witch doctor or voodoo priest whispering into his hands and then litterally smacking his target with a curse, or jabbing a talisman into their armor to mark him for the spirits.

Similarly, calling up a mist or light wind around himself. Perhaps vines stretching down from the trees. Spanish moss catching arrows fired from afar... His shadow turning to that of a bear and striking out at an enemy while fumes seep up from the ground and gag anyone too close to him. Even the light of the moon shining ggv brighter as he strikes out but fading as he dodges back into cover...

This could be fun.

Actually, voodoo is one of the inspirations I have here, although I was using it more for the Remembrance (Shaman) powers.