Shadow magic?

[EisenKreutzer]

I see a lot of talk about Truenaming, and Pact Magic seems to have a fair amount of fans as well. But I never see mention of the third system from Tome of Magic, Shadow Magic.

Whats the verdict on this subsystem? Is it just so mediocre that it never warrants mentioning? Or is it a hidden gem?

[Buufreak]

It is, in my professional opinion, a "meh" class. It has some interesting flavor, but never exactly reaches any spectacular height that one might hope for.

[pabelfly]

Binding is great. Definitely worth checking out. Truenamer is for people who hate themselves, want to play quirky character concepts, and/or people who want to seriously min-max a character without worrying about overshadowing the rest of the party. And Shadow Magic is somewhere between the two.

[Zaq]

It basically combines the worst parts of prepared and spontaneous casting. Like a spontaneous caster, you can’t really pick too many niche or downtime-focused mysteries because every mystery known comes at a big opportunity cost, but like a prepared caster, you lack round-by-round flexibility if you happen to have run out of daily uses of the mystery you really want. Which may very well happen quite frequently.

I really love the concept, but I can’t bring myself to play one. I keep getting hung up on the lack of stamina.

I feel like a quick-and-dirty homebrew fix would be to slap on eldritch blast as the warlock, since that would at least give the shadowcaster the ability to usefully spend a standard action on the many rounds where they lack an appropriate mystery, but I’ve never tested that.

[Psyren]

In addition to the mechanical issues, Mysteries don't really add anything concept- or fluff-wise that you couldn't add just by converting them all into shadow-themed spells and invocations. It's just not as meaty a subsystem as its two counterparts. You could replace the Shadowcaster entirely with just a Sorcerer or Arcanist archetype.

[Telonius]

The person who wrote the class did write some suggested fixes in a public forum (link here (https://www.enworld.org/threads/shadowcaster-fixes-by-mouseferatu.184955/); posts are by Ari Marmell, going as the handle Mouseferatu). It's not WOTC-official, but tweaks from the guy who wrote it may carry some more weight with your DM than other homebrew fixes.

My general impression is that it seems like they were rushing to get Tome of Magic out the door and onto the bookshelves, and kind of jumped the gun before everything was ready. Pact Magic was great as-is. Shadow and Truename magic needed more time in development. Both are full of flavor, but it's always seemed to me like Shadowcaster was about 3/4 finished, and Truenamer was about half finished.

[Quentinas]

A shadowcaster have a good stamina from level 10 and above if optimized as DCs because if you use your mystery in a good way you can resolve some encounter, they are good when the apprentice feat become 3/day , and the initiate 2/day but they will have to use their mystery in a way. They have some effects that are only of the Shadow Magic ,and they are more used in a noctumancer build that finish with the mystic theurge. The Child of Night as prestige classes is not so good, and the Master of Shadow can be good (but to use the shadow elemental in combat you will have to choose some mystery not so good or to lose in the action economy if you use an umbral touch character that transmit that with the shadow elemental not casting any mystery except an extended maximed umbral touch probably and then boosting him with the wish of the master. I would like to see the shadowcaster in an E6 campaign or competition but it would not be easy for sure

[Troacctid]

Whats the verdict on this subsystem? Is it just so mediocre that it never warrants mentioning? Or is it a hidden gem?
The first one.

Shadowcaster is just not a good class. It's easily the worst 9th level caster in the game. You don't get enough spell slots, the path system is clunky and awkward for no real reason, the level progression feels spiky and uneven, and you have split casting stats because who knows why.

What's the upside? Well, you see, there's this wonky distinction between spells and (Sp) and (Su) abilities, and shadowcasters get to interact with those rules! Isn't that exciting?

[crickets]

Oh, but come on! The (Su) abilities ignore spell resistance and don't require Concentration! And the (Sp) abilities...look, here's a chart illustrating the differences...

[more crickets]

...so yeah, anyway, shadowcaster sucks.

[Psyren]

I like the concept of a caster that only needs somatic components for all their spells, and the fluff idea of your shadow making different motions than you as a means of sussing out what you are is cool. But other systems realize this fantasy much better.

[The Viscount]

There is enough to look at that there is a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268661-3-5-Pulvis-Et-Umbra-Sumus-The-Shadowcaster-Handbook) on the class, but it's not as good as Binder or as fascinatingly bad as Truenamer.

I would say it has two major shortcomings.
From a gameplay perspective, as everyone will tell you and several in this thread have, Shadowcaster runs out of mysteries very fast, and this is a problem which plagues them for much of their career. Mystery selection is restrictive due to the way paths work, further limiting your options.

From a conceptual perspective, mysteries just aren't that different from spells. As you increase in level they can become SLA or Su abilities, but your highest level mysteries are still being cast as spells. When you read the description a lot of mysteries are "like this spell, but with extra feature." They didn't really carve enough of a distinct identity or niche to separate mysteries from spells, and the class suffers for it.

[Railak]

If the mystery selection wasn't so small the class would be amazing. With the ones they do have, they have very select few mysteries that actually do any significant damage, and only like one or two death spells at really high level. They do get some great battlefield control mysteries, but most of them are really low level. And then there's Flicker, which I think is probably one of the greatest things ever made, reminds me a lot of nightcrawler xD

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shadowmagic on the whole has some interesting stuff, mostly in the prestige classes. The base class, shadowcaster, is pretty solildly "meh." There's some mechanics there to play with as Troacctid has sarcastically jabbed at (not that she's wrong, really) but unless you want to be the guy with a whole mess of bonus feats and low-level powers, you're just not gonna have any staying power unless you buy up a mess of wands, staves, and scrolls of mysteries.

Now in the PrC section you get some genuinely interesting, if not particularly powerful stuff. Shadowsmith and shadowblade are just plain neat, even if they don't do a whole lot. Master of Shadows can just about make up for the shadowcaster's weaknesses by giving you a couple decent minions to point at your enemies and Noctumancer can actually make a solid anti-caster caster, in spite of being a theurge. Child of shadow is just as "meh" as shadowcaster itself though and both it and Master of Shadow are equally available to arcanists as they are to shadowcasters.

The last nail in the coffin for shadow magic's mentions has to be the fact that -none- of its feats are available to any character that doesn't dip into one of the chapter's classes. You can pick up a bit of binding or truename magic with a feat or two just to try 'em out. Not shadow magic.

The only regular mention I see from this chapter is the collar of umbral metamophosis for sneaky types. It's not at all difficult to see why once you've reached a certain degree of system mastery.

[enderlord99]

XuldarinarRealms-of-Chaos here on this forum did a really big Homebrew project on them, but otherwise it's pretty lackluster, IIRC.

[RatElemental]

Truenamer is for people who hate themselves, want to play quirky character concepts, and/or people who want to seriously min-max a character without worrying about overshadowing the rest of the party.

I love the concept of truenamer but there's no denying the mechanics are fundamentally broken. Luckily there's some great homebrew fixes out there, my favorite being the one that adds a wizard and necromancer themed variant.

[Troacctid]

My quick fix is to make mysteries per encounter rather than per day.

[javcs]

My quick fix is to make mysteries per encounter rather than per day.

Yeah. This is probably the quickest fix.
Might also give them more mysteries known.

Another quick fix might be to let shadowcasters utilize the Unearthed Arcana Recharge Magic rules.

Also, because they have crap for a reliable magical attack ... consider changing HP damage mysteries to do their amount of damage dice in both lethal and nonlethal damage, or double damage in nonlethal.



I've been looking at rewriting the shadowcaster as more of a magic sneak/traps rogue to the magic face rogue of the beguiler. But more like the Warlock with mostly at will or encounter abilities, rather than dailies.




The problem with the shadowcaster is that it never really grows out of the regular arcane full 9th caster's issues at low level - you don't really have enough magic to rely on it for more than one or two encounters in a day, and without magic, you mostly get to sit back and take potshots with a crossbow, your bad BAB, and no ability to invest build resources in supporting crossbow user without tanking what magical ability you do have.
And your most powerful abilities don't reach the heights of regular arcane (or divine) full 9th casters.



And shadowcasters have nearly no support. The Cityscape web enhancement included, what was it? 3 or 4 new mystery paths. And that's it for shadowcaster support.
And they didn't have that much in ToM on the first place. Just 57 pages for the Shadowcaster(6 pages), the 5 Shadow Magic PrCs(19 pages), Shadow Magic Feats(2 pages), Mysteries and Paths(16 pages), and Shadow Magic Items(4 pages). That includes the pictures and headers, plus various associated fluff and "x in the world" and "interactions with others" fluff.
Binders got multiple web enhancement vestiges and even some epic support.
And nobody cares that truenamers didn't get support because they are so broken it's not worth the effort.


The Shadowcaster and Shadowmagic are an amazing concept. One that could readily have had an entire book dedicated to it ala incarnum (for that matter, so could Binding/pact magic and truenaming - both which are also concepts that could easily have supported a book of their own).
They could have done a Tome of Magic series: Incarnum, Binding/Pact Magic, Shadowmagic, and Truenaming. And dedicated more time and resources to each concept.
Alas, the practical execution of shadowmagic (and truenaming) was sadly far from upholding the conceptual potential.

[Grim Reader]

I loved the concept and the fluff. I've tried to build a "Knight of Shadow" gish a few times but never made it click.

The problems are;

Mysteries are weaker than spells. Or you have a bigger set of spells to pick gems from, resulting in a better average, I don't know. But a Sorcerer with OK spell picks will normally have more powerful options than a Shadowcaster at the same level.

You got much fewer mysteries known. You learn one mystery per level, so you total up to 20 mysteries. Much less than a Sorcerer and spells.

I also understand that the Shadowcaster has a big problem with endurance even at high levels, much worse than the Wizard.

Additionally, the qualifying for and advancing rules for prestige classes are so limiting, its really hard to do all that much with the class to cover its weak points.

So, weaker options than other 9th level casters, fewer options than even Sorcerers, and less stamina than even Wizards, combined with more restricted options for character building and weak points coverage. Its basically just less in every category than other 9th level casters. At the point ToM was published I think they were starting to see how spells trumped martials, so I suspect the Shadowcaster represented a rebalancing. Problem is, that just leaves it simply inferior in all ways to the full casters, and being from a relatively obscure supplement with little support, the more powerful classes are always available.

I don't know how it would have worked in an environment where ToM classes were the only non-mundane classes.

[Troacctid]

Another quick fix might be to let shadowcasters utilize the Unearthed Arcana Recharge Magic rules.
Well, you'd have to define which mysteries have general and specific recharge times, so I'm not sure it qualifies as "quick," but sure.

[javcs]

Well, you'd have to define which mysteries have general and specific recharge times, so I'm not sure it qualifies as "quick," but sure.

Just give them all general recharge as sorcerers.
Only ones that would arguably have specific recharge would be some of the (limited) buff mysteries or the Shadow Walk mystery. Maybe some of the scrying mysteries.

Just giving them all general recharge times isn't going to break or unbalance anything. They've got little enough to work with as is, and mysteries are pretty lackluster.
The only mystery that could maybe cause problems is the "create ink" fundamental ... they can corner the market on basic black ink, woohoo. I'm not too worried.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ari's fixes help immensely by returning stamina and flexibility to an overly restricted class. It ends up being gently T3 rather than flavorful but messy system. If gets looked for mostly because at base it does something, unlike truenamer, but does it poorly unlike binder.

[liquidformat]

You are literally using cantrips or going spelless for the majority of your first 10 levels because they are so starved for spells. You are more or less playing slightly better than commoner hd that can cast a spell here and there for your first 10 levels. Beyond that the mysteries require you to follow a specific track with a lot of duds before you get anything interesting and almost all of it is easier to access from a normal arcane caster.

It doesn't get much worse than that. Frankly I am surprised it got put in tier 4, sure it is ok 10-20 but anyone that plays the first 9 levels will want to commit suicide and make a new character...

[javcs]

You are literally using cantrips or going spelless for the majority of your first 10 levels because they are so starved for spells. You are more or less playing slightly better than commoner hd that can cast a spell here and there for your first 10 levels. Beyond that the mysteries require you to follow a specific track with a lot of duds before you get anything interesting and almost all of it is easier to access from a normal arcane caster.

It doesn't get much worse than that. Frankly I am surprised it got put in tier 4, sure it is ok 10-20 but anyone that plays the first 9 levels will want to commit suicide and make a new character...

Since when are shadowcasters T4?!

They're T5 at best. Lower T5, at that.

[liquidformat]

Since when are shadowcasters T4?!

They're T5 at best. Lower T5, at that.

the retiering project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home) put them at T4

[Troacctid]

Putting them lower than adepts would be madness.

[javcs]

the retiering project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home) put them at T4
Well, that was a mistake, IMO.



Putting them lower than adepts would be madness.
Adepts have nothing to do with how much shadowcasters suck and fail to do their jobs. Adepts aren't that great either.

Shadowcasters objectively fail to do their jobs over an adventuring day. At level 20, they know a maximum of 2 9th level mysteries, that can each be used once per day.

[Troacctid]

Even if shadowcasters get off to a rough start at low levels, they are still 9th level casters. And the competition in T4 is like, ranger, fighter, barbarian, savant, adept...hardly the big leagues. T5 would mean that every T4 class beats shadowcaster on power level. I have a hard time buying that.

[javcs]

Even if shadowcasters get off to a rough start at low levels, they are still 9th level casters. And the competition in T4 is like, ranger, fighter, barbarian, savant, adept...hardly the big leagues. T5 would mean that every T4 class beats shadowcaster on power level. I have a hard time buying that.
Yeah ... they're 9th level casters ... but with a crap spell list, crap spells per day, and crap spells known.

Fighter isn't really a T4 either, IMO, they're a T5.

It's not just power level.
Shadowcasters fail to do their jobs.


The problem is that unlike other full 9th casters, shadowcasters never grow past their rough start, as you put it. They suffer from those same problems their entire careers.
As I previously pointed out, a Shadowcaster 20 knows at most 2 mysteries of 9th level, that can each be used only once per day. At most 3 8th level mysteries, each only once per day, and likely 3 7th level mysteries each useable only once per day.
Without magic, they have nothing, and they have very limited magic.

And, again, as previously pointed out, shadowcasters have zilch for support.


Shadowcasters are just incredibly disappointing, IMO.

[Lans]

Well, that was a mistake, IMO.



Adepts have nothing to do with how much shadowcasters suck and fail to do their jobs. Adepts aren't that great either.

Shadowcasters objectively fail to do their jobs over an adventuring day. At level 20, they know a maximum of 2 9th level mysteries, that can each be used once per day.

I think you are over estimating tier 4, they could take greater shadow evocation 8 times and still be low tier 4

[Quentinas]

If i'm not wrong by level 20 they would have (at least) 3 use of 1°st level mysteries + 3 use of 2nd level mysteries mysteries of 2nd level) + 3 use for level 3 mysteries +2 use of 4th level +2 use of fifth level +2 use of sixth level + 1 use of seventh level +1 use of eight level +1 use of ninth level all multiplied by two (we know at least 2 mysteries of each level) but then we can relearn the 2 level nine mysteries arriving at having 4 use of ninth level mysteries in total so they are not T5 (if we summed the number of mysteries multiplied by slots we would have 6 6 6 4 4 4 2 2 4 excluding cantrips a mix between wizard and sorcerer as number of slots) they are still weakier than them but for me even without the fix they are T4 (depend on the situation and maybe some class of T3 can't do the same thing of some of his mystery)

[javcs]

If i'm not wrong by level 20 they would have (at least) 3 use of 1°st level mysteries + 3 use of 2nd level mysteries mysteries of 2nd level) + 3 use for level 3 mysteries +2 use of 4th level +2 use of fifth level +2 use of sixth level + 1 use of seventh level +1 use of eight level +1 use of ninth level all multiplied by two (we know at least 2 mysteries of each level) but then we can relearn the 2 level nine mysteries arriving at having 4 use of ninth level mysteries in total so they are not T5 (if we summed the number of mysteries multiplied by slots we would have 6 6 6 4 4 4 2 2 4 excluding cantrips a mix between wizard and sorcerer as number of slots) they are still weakier than them but for me even without the fix they are T4 (depend on the situation and maybe some class of T3 can't do the same thing of some of his mystery)

?
Have you forgotten the rules on how the Shadowcaster can select mysteries known?
You need 2 mysteries of the previous level, except for the first mystery in a path, and toy also need all preceding mysteries in a path

You can only take 9th level mysteries if you know the 7th and 8th level mysteries in their path, and the 7th and 8th level mysteries in a second path.
As such, at level 20, assuming you stated taking master mysteries as soon as possible and have been taking only master mysteries once you gained access, you can have up to 2 9th level mysteries, 2 8th level mysteries, 3 7th level mysteries and one mystery that can be either a third 8th level mystery or a fourth 7th level mystery. Unless you double up on mysteries you already possess, in which case you theoretically could have up to 4 copies of a single 9th level mystery. Plus the 7th and 8th level mysteries in that path and the 7th and 8th level mysteries in a second path. But that's not going to get you very far.

You get 6 apprentice mysteries (2 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd), and 6 initiate mysteries (2 4th, 2 5th, 2 6th).
Or, rather, you can get up to 2 apprentice paths, 2 initiate paths, and 2 and 2/3 master mystery paths by level 20.



Frankly, the only thing that shadowcasters can do better than other casters is their Shadow Time Mystery is as Time Stop but 1d4+4 rounds, so inherently better duration. Unfortunately, they don't really have that much useful they can do with that time. Nor do they have the uses per day.



Shadowcasters are just disappointingly bad. They can't sustain an adventuring day.
They are neither particularly versatile nor powerful.
You're better off with a Warlock who took all the darkness/shadow invocations he could find - the warlock will have fewer invocations known, but is going to be more reliable both in and out of combat.


--

We may need to agree to disagree on some things, for the purposes of this thread.
I think we agree that shadowcasters are bad, we appear to disagree on exactly how bad they are.

[Quentinas]

I remember these rules but one could take multiple times the same mystery gaining another use and for this they would have 4 use of 9th level mysteries (even if they have only 2 mystery known of that level) without needing to know other level 7 or level 8 mystery

Note about shadow time by the tome of magic errata is duration is 3 round not 1d4+4 and compared to wizard or sorcerer yes they are not so strong and i don't use so much the warlock but in retiering project he is tier 3 ,and that the shadowcaster without any fix is under T3 is sure right? But is better than any class of the T5 of that project(the truenamer if not heavily optimized probably) so for me is still a not so good class is usable but only on the high level (and using only two of the Prestige class presented in the tome of Magic with one which is a wizard with an addition of shadowcasting)

[liquidformat]

Even if shadowcasters get off to a rough start at low levels, they are still 9th level casters. And the competition in T4 is like, ranger, fighter, barbarian, savant, adept...hardly the big leagues. T5 would mean that every T4 class beats shadowcaster on power level. I have a hard time buying that.


I remember these rules but one could take multiple times the same mystery gaining another use and for this they would have 4 use of 9th level mysteries (even if they have only 2 mystery known of that level) without needing to know other level 7 or level 8 mystery

Note about shadow time by the tome of magic errata is duration is 3 round not 1d4+4 and compared to wizard or sorcerer yes they are not so strong and i don't use so much the warlock but in retiering project he is tier 3 ,and that the shadowcaster without any fix is under T3 is sure right? But is better than any class of the T5 of that project(the truenamer if not heavily optimized probably) so for me is still a not so good class is usable but only on the high level (and using only two of the Prestige class presented in the tome of Magic with one which is a wizard with an addition of shadowcasting)

I think you are both over looking just how bad the shadow caster is for the first 9 levels. They are so starved for spells that they should expect to use all of their spells before finishing a single encounter. Furthermore, depending on what path they are taking it isn't unexpected for most of their spells to be more or less useless in many situations. They have good fort and will saves, bad bab progression and d6 2+int skill points with to be frank a bad skill list. They probably have the skill points to max hide, move silently, spellcraft, and spot if they have a very high int maybe intimidate or concentration.

With the expectation of either not having a useful spell or blowing through all of your spells before the end of an encounter and with crap bab the shadowcaster is dead weight for most of the day in most encounters and its lethargic spell list, skill list, and number of spells make them equally as useless outside of combat. That sounds like a clear cut tier 5 bordering on tier 6 for the first ~9-10 levels. Even after level 10 sure you get more spells per day so you are more useful but they are only as useful as the spells/mysteries you have chosen, heck compared to a paladin or ranger you have almost the same number of level 1-4 spells but they have a much larger and better list to choose from and other things they are capable of.

I really don't think they have enough spells and useful enough spells to truly enter tier 4 until level 13-15 in which case you have already gone through 2/3rds to 3/4ths of your build. That doesn't sound much like tier 4 to me...

[Lans]

my experience once they hit level 7 they are good enough to be tier 4 with them having 13 spells for the day. At level 1 they have arrow of dusk to carry them. I think they can use reserve feats, but I'm not sure.

[enderlord99]

In a low-op tristalt game (which, to be clear, is something basically no one would try to run, or play in) it might be decent as the "limited" part of the "endurance//limited//passive" trifecta.

Otherwise it sucks.

[Troacctid]

I think you are both over looking just how bad the shadow caster is for the first 9 levels. They are so starved for spells that they should expect to use all of their spells before finishing a single encounter. Furthermore, depending on what path they are taking it isn't unexpected for most of their spells to be more or less useless in many situations. They have good fort and will saves, bad bab progression and d6 2+int skill points with to be frank a bad skill list. They probably have the skill points to max hide, move silently, spellcraft, and spot if they have a very high int maybe intimidate or concentration.

With the expectation of either not having a useful spell or blowing through all of your spells before the end of an encounter and with crap bab the shadowcaster is dead weight for most of the day in most encounters and its lethargic spell list, skill list, and number of spells make them equally as useless outside of combat. That sounds like a clear cut tier 5 bordering on tier 6 for the first ~9-10 levels. Even after level 10 sure you get more spells per day so you are more useful but they are only as useful as the spells/mysteries you have chosen, heck compared to a paladin or ranger you have almost the same number of level 1-4 spells but they have a much larger and better list to choose from and other things they are capable of.

I really don't think they have enough spells and useful enough spells to truly enter tier 4 until level 13-15 in which case you have already gone through 2/3rds to 3/4ths of your build. That doesn't sound much like tier 4 to me...
Most arcane casters struggle through the early levels. Obviously shadowcaster struggles more, but that's why it's multiple tiers lower than the others. And it's level 7 that you start getting a decent number of mysteries per day, not level 10.

The shadowcaster's spells per day aren't even that much lower than a bard's. Assuming the bard has 16 starting Charisma:

At level 1, bards have two cantrips. Shadowcasters have nine cantrips and a 1st level spell.

At level 2, bards have three 0s and a 1. Shadowcasters have nine 0s and two 1s.

At level 3, bards have three 0s and two 1s. Shadowcasters have nine 0s, two 1s, and a 2. At this point the bard also has +1 more BAB than the shadowcaster.

At level 4, bards have three 0s, three 1s, and a 2. Shadowcasters have twelve 0s, two 1s, and two 2s.

At level 5, bards have three 0s, four 1s, and two 2s. Shadowcasters have twelve 0s, two 1s, two 2s, and a 3.

At level 6, bards have three 0s, four 1s, and three 2s. Shadowcasters have twelve 0s, two 1s, two 2s, and two 3s. The bard now has +2 higher BAB.

Then we hit level 7. Bards gain a 3rd level slot. Shadowcasters gain a 4th level slot and double all their 1st–3rd level slots.

Now I know what you're going to say—bards have other things to do besides cast spells. True. That's why they're higher-tier.