Looking for a good "other Side" to Gestalt with a Dragon

[GrayDeath]

Sooo, our normal GM will be out of the country for around 2 months.

Our replacement one allows us to gestalt our Characters with a Dragon, as long as we follow the following 3 Limitations:

1.: No Full Caster/Manufester/etc Class. Or Imitation/Stealing/etc of the same (Wands, Rods, Potions and almost all "temporary" magic items are either restricted or less reliable).

2.: No more than 2 Classes + Prestige CLass on the nondragon, and ONLY Dragon HD on the Dragon Side (will be using HDwise advancement for that)

and

3.: Not Cheesy (this includes things that only work in the strictest RAW Interpretations, for reference assume if a slightly strict, COmmon Sense GM would say no, he will also say no).

Oh, and neither Lawful Good nor Chaotic Evil Alignments are allowed, otherwise its free but, as always, group compatibility is a necessity.


Other House Rules:

If we want we can replace the Dragons equivalent Sorcerer Casting with that Level+2 Initiating (using Warblade Progression without any other CLassfeatures).

Stats are rolled using 7 rolls a 2d6+6, Drop lowest. Any ONE Roll of those may be rerolled after the lowest is dropped, but if so, must be accepted even if worse.

Stupid Prestige Class Prerequs just to make them hard to enter" are removed (say Ride for Kensai, Dodge for ... just about everyone, and similar) while hard Limits ala BAB, Saves, and similar stand unchanged.

All Dragons once they reach ECL 15, gain one Domain befitting them and the God they venerate (count as Clerics, hav eone Domain Slot, but cannot use this to qualify for anything else).

LA Templates are allowed, as long as they fit the fluff, buyoff is considered done Pre Game Start and assumed to happen at Levels 4, 8 and 12 (so LA 3 is effectively free).

As mentioned above, the usual "use and forget" Magic items will be either much rarer or quite unreliable (there is some Chaos Stuff going on in the Setting, no further details).

That should be it, thanks in advance!



So, I am now looking for a fun to play, powerful Character that fits these Limitations.

Starting Level will be 14, we can expect to lervel up at least 3 times in 5-6 Gamesessions.

What would the Playgorounds Hive Intelligence suggest, and why?

[Unavenger]

Psychic Warrior would be potentially useful for psi lion's charge. Rogue works well with anything full-BAB on the other side.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can you do spellhoarding loredrake steel dragon + factotum/warblade multiclass?

[NomGarret]

Scout might be fun. You’ll get skirmish, which will facilitate flyby attacks. Otherwise, Incarnate could be a nice option, depending on whether you consider meldshaping full casting.

[Celestia]

Honestly, I'd go for dragonfire adept and load up on metabreath feats and other breath weapon optimization. Your biggest strength is being a dragon, so just be more of a dragon.

[Zancloufer]

Something like Warblade, Sword Sage or Crusader would be fun.

Unless. That Racial Sorcerer trading in for Warblade progression, it is HD+2 Initiator level/stances/manouvres known or CL +2. If it's HD+2 I don't see a reason not to trade out casting for it an going Sword Sage > Master of Nine might be fun.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starting at level 14 with 3 LA bought off, a Juvenile Steel Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) is 13 HD and +4 LA (Dragons of Faerun), so it should fit perfectly. That gets you Sorcerer 7 spellcasting right off the bat, the Loredrake archetype (Dragons of Eberron) increases that to Sorcerer 9 spellcasting in exchange for reducing your racial HD to d10's.

The Spellhoarding template (Dragon 313 p79-81) is a +0 LA, it trades your Sorcerer spellcasting for Wizard spellcasting of equal level, along with tons of other benefits like learning non-class spells by counterspelling them, and copying the same spell onto your scales multiple times at 100 gp per spell level and then expending a copy to cast it as though it's a scroll. Wizard 9 spellcasting at 14th level isn't bad at all in a party of no-primary-casters-allowed, and it gets better if you can advance it with a gestalt prestige class.

[Bphill561]

Does no full spell casting apply to classes like Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader in principle? Or alternatively a PrC that has 1/2 casting progression applied to progressing your natural dragon spell casting like Rainbow savant?

Is dragon LA just on one side or both?

Personally I think I would go with a Brainstealer dragon from Dragon magazine 337 if that is an option. Very young is 10HD, LA+ 5 which fits in your level 14 start with the 3 LA peeled off. Illithiad Savant has a skill requirement of 10, so you can enter it after level 7 allowing for at least 5 levels by the 14 level start (depending on how the LA works). You won't be allowed to copy spell casting with your rule set, but could still be a lot of fun. Not sure what would work best for the 2 base classes.


Otherwise, Incarnate could be a nice option, depending on whether you consider meldshaping full casting.

Mix with Incarnum dragon since it's natural soulmeld shaping is from the soulborn class list.

Warlock might be a valid option if that will allow better magic item access. You could take 12 levels of warlock to allow item creation, then any arcane progressing PrC of interest to advance the warlock. You could leverage your natural dragon spell casting to qualify for any spell casting requirements as the for-mentioned steel dragon would have access to third level spells.

Overall though, book of nine swords seems like the easiest route for an alternative magic system that is allowed in your rule set.

[pabelfly]

Can you get a Brainstealer Dragon and add psychic warrior or Ardent to it?

[GrayDeath]

THank you all for posting.

Now:



Can you do spellhoarding loredrake steel dragon + factotum/warblade multiclass?

For this and all others suggesting similar things: Going full casterish or close to it on ANY side is out. Hence very surely no steel dragon Loredrakes or similar.
And yes, this includes rapid Progressing anything.

To make it more clear: ANYTHINg that gets me more Casting in level and number of Spells than around a same HD Bard would have is between likely to surely out.


Something like Warblade, Sword Sage or Crusader would be fun.

Unless. That Racial Sorcerer trading in for Warblade progression, it is HD+2 Initiator level/stances/manouvres known or CL +2. If it's HD+2 I don't see a reason not to trade out casting for it an going Sword Sage > Master of Nine might be fun.

IL is equal to the preexisting Effective Sorcerer Level +2 and uses the Warblade Maneuver and Stance progression and recovery method, but nothing else of the Warblade.
So to better sum it up, Warblade Maneuver and Stance progression equal to preexistant Sorcerer Progression +2.



And for general LA Questions: There is no Dragon LA. THe Dragon Side is Dragon HD. Thats it. Otherwise the whole thing would be much less apealing.



And for People suggesting things like Illithind Savant and such: Remember, NO cheese. That does include CLasses whose whole SHTICK is mature Stinson ^^


Keep it coming please. :smallcool:

[Quertus]

And for general LA Questions: There is no Dragon LA. THe Dragon Side is Dragon HD. Thats it. Otherwise the whole thing would be much less apealing.

Wait, what? So, you're a 15 HD dragon, regardless of LA? Well, then, clearly the optimal thing to do is to pick a dragon with really high LA at 15 HD.

But that's optimal. Fun? Hmmm… I think it would be fun to utilize all those natural attacks with maxed out sneak attack damage. And be stealthy, while we're at it. A very young Pyroclastic Dragon has 10 HD and large size; so a three-headed very young dark Pyroclastic Dragon would have 14 HD. So "3-and-a-half tails heads”. Just go straight Rogue on the other side, max out stealth (and whatever other skills you want). 8 natural attacks for +8d6 SA damage sounds pretty buff. Should be over 200 damage, if every attack hits. And Evasion is probably gonna be pretty handy for someone who wants to melee, what with all the breath weapons likely being thrown around.

You want things to boost your saves, boost your stealth, give you pounce, and add other on-hit effects. So, items for saves & stealth, a level of Barbarian for pounce, and feats or a level of Crusader for a stance for on-hit healing. Granted, you lose a d6 of SA if you drop a rogue level, but I think that it's worth it for pounce. Also, an Amulet of Natural Attacks (+1) to let you hit incorporeal creatures.

Tone down to taste.

-----

If that wasn't what you meant, then I'll redo things in a bit. Because "whatever dragon, at 15 HD" could get rather ridiculous, if we let it.

[GrayDeath]

No, that was what I meant.

But also, as contra to the usual GiTP method it might be, do not forget the "no cheese" limit.

if the Dragon I take has powerful abilities? Good.
If the CLass I take has funs tuff?
Good as well.

If combining them is extremely cheesy and/or obsoletes more than one Character Concept....eh, probably gonna be shot don.

[Silvercrys]

Because "whatever dragon, at 15 HD" could get rather ridiculous, if we let it.Pretty much this.

Only question I really have remaining besides that is, do initiating classes count as full casters? And also what about Incarnum, can we do like a Totemist/Rogue multiclass on the off side for even more natural weapons?

Edit: "cheese" is inherently subjective, unfortunately. I suppose Totemist 2/Rogue 18 to get a brazillion natural weapons with sneak attack is cheesy, though.

Barbarian 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 with Swift Hunter might be fun though and not too cheesy. Rogue/Swift Ambusher in place of ranger gets more d6's and you don't lose BAB though since, Gestalt Dragon.

[Mr Adventurer]

Factotum would be great with a high Draconic Intelligence score.

[GrayDeath]

Lets put it like this (guesswork, but I know him so good guesswork): If it requires adding "RAW only" arguments, its out. If its ludicrously powerful and/or comes close to violate the other 2 rules, its out.
If it adds enough Damage dice to one turn kill more than a "Normal" Übercharger could, without needing ressources, its out. If its entirely unfluffy (say making a Dragon with classes connected to nondragon Beings, especially in a subserviant role) its out.
everything else should do.

And full Initiators do not count as full casters, but due to doubling up, Warblades would be out (that was my first Idea, when I read the rules, so...yeah...^^).

Incarnum he likes a lot, so unless its totally "power only build" that should be allowed at will. ^^

Edit: The Totemnist/Rogue thingy would probably fly, except it would likely end at Totemnist 2/Rogue 4ish, as it does only add physical stuff.




So far I like the Dragonfire and Metabreath Idea or the use Warlock to be the only semireliable Magic Crafter best.

But please, keep em coming!

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about a juvenile battle dragon with Dragonfire Inspiration, using something like battle dragon 14//divine bard 4/crusader 1/bard +2/crusader +1/bard +2/crusader +1/bard +2/crusader +1? (Forgive the ugliness, but weaving in crusader levels allows you to pick some higher-level maneuvers.) Pick up Dragonfire Inspiration at level 3, Song of the Heart at bard 6/ECL 7 (instead of whatever song you get at 6), Song of the White Raven at level 6, and Words of Creation at level 9. That gives you a +8d6 Dragonfire Inspiration (sonic damage) at level 14, a sonic breath weapon, and the ability to cast creaking cacophony to give enemies sonic vulnerability. At level 17, you could get a cohort (paladin 14 with Spirited Charge? Hell, an aristocrat would do, it's just for show :smalltongue:) to serve as a rider. Slap on a matching set of mithral breastplate-grade armour, get a cool banner, and you've got the classic dragon rider archetype down to a tee.

Power-wise, bardsaders have a nice mix of spellcasting and initiating, good skills, and a nice power bump from the +8d6 sonic damage to each of your and your allies' attacks (stacks with regular IC for an extra +8 attack/damage, but that requires a second action to activate, and you only have 11 uses/day). On the other hand, on the DM appeasment front, planar dragons have no spellcasting, and you're only using 11th-level bard casting at level 14, so you're not exactly overpowered compared to other dragons, right? Hell, it's not even Pouncing (except through a maneuver, perhaps).

Fluff-wise, battle dragons are NG Celestial-speaking planar entities, so using Words of Creation is 100% in keeping with their fluff. They have Perform as a class skill and Inspire Courage as racial ability (at old age). Even better, this is right in their description: "[Battle dragons] inspire others to bravery and valor in battle". And this: "[A battle dragon] uses its special abilities to fortify the prowess of its allies". And: "[Battle dragons] often serve as steeds for powerful warriors". I mean, I don't think you're going to get a better fit than that.

[Silvercrys]

Think I'd be real tempted by some kind of pouncing build, personally. If Swift Hunter with Lion Spirit Totem for pounce isn't your speed, something like Rogue 3/Swordsage 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 6/Swordsage +X maybe? Even if you don't get multipouncing because it's OP you can still spend all your actions to teleport 150 ft and mess up whatever you end up next to, then be a dragon with maneuvers and Telflammar Shadowlord casting afterwards (which isn't great, mind, but it's better than anyone else probably has unless you have a straight Bard with you).

Could even pick a Dragon with Alternate Form and say you picked up shadow pouncing from humans and adapted it for Dragons or something (though if you don't need to do that, Shadow Dragon's thematics are perfect for the character).

[Quertus]

No, that was what I meant.

But also, as contra to the usual GiTP method it might be, do not forget the "no cheese" limit.

if the Dragon I take has powerful abilities? Good.
If the CLass I take has funs tuff?
Good as well.

If combining them is extremely cheesy and/or obsoletes more than one Character Concept....eh, probably gonna be shot don.

Fortunately, the only concept my build obsoleted was that of Rogue (Stealth + damage = assassin). As a Rogue. OK, so maybe pounce would be a bit much, but I believe in giving muggles nice things.

And, at level 15, 200 damage (less, if you lose SA to get pounce etc) shouldn't obsolete the Fighter - it just means you've softened the foe up for them.

And I'll second "cheese is subjective". This is just things doing what they say on the tin.

[Bronk]

I'd go with a juvenile arboreal dragon (14HD, CG, large, alternate forms that includes fey, breathes thorns(!), no racial spellcasting) on one side, and on the other side either one level of monk and the rest warblade, or one level of lion totem barbarian and the rest swordsage.

For templates I'd go with dark (+1), and half fey (+2).

[liquidformat]

I am for the dragon fire adept suggestion, that is a great and thematic way to go.

[Quertus]

For humor value, go Paragon Pseudonatural (insert least common type of Dragon here) on one side; on the other, Commoner. Choose a correspondingly silly accent, and dress appropriate to (humanoid) civilian life. Straw hat a bonus. Be deeply concerned with living a "normal" / "good" life.

[GrayDeath]

For humor value, go Paragon Pseudonatural (insert least common type of Dragon here) on one side; on the other, Commoner. Choose a correspondingly silly accent, and dress appropriate to (humanoid) civilian life. Straw hat a bonus. Be deeply concerned with living a "normal" / "good" life.

If Paragon wasnt an Epic Template, I`d actually go for this, I think. For the comedy value alone. ^^

[GrayDeath]

Just wanted to post that I ahve decided.

I`ll be going for Dragonfire Adept/Crusader on the CLass Side (Crusader Maneuvers almost exclusively to self heal) and Pyroclastic Dragon on the Dragon Side.
Nice Force of nature Build, but not flexible enough to step on the other Players toes (one also takes the Dragon path, but with mercury Dragon/Bard/something, the other 2 are non T1 Casters).

Should work nicely with focussing on massive Breath Weapon Spammage and physical Abilities.