3.p Unchained Barb/Rogue MC Viable?

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I recently posted about transitioning from 5e to 3.p and that post has gone well.

I'm creating my character at Level 4 and wanted to know (before spending too much time by myself) if a Kobold Unchained Barb/Rogue MC would be viable. I'd be dex based.

I haven't done too much research because I want to ask those with experience if there's something glaringly wrong with this before getting in too deep. I'm thinking I'd take something like Quickdraw to be able to throw daggers as I close in, then with Rogue 2 I can pick up Weapon Finesse (and maybe even Fast Stealth later).

The character concept is to be a chaotic good Kobold from a barbarian tribe (I haven't fleshed out the backstory much more yet). But instead of relying on strength, this tribe is particularly lethal by combining speed, teamwork, cunning, and stealth. I'm envisioning the combat style as carefully placing blows and setting up my position before finally running full speed ahead and calling on my Barbarian gods to slice and dice with unbridled fury. I'd be okay with mixing levels fairly evenly, but do you see advantages to leaning more heavily on one side or the other?

As far as personality he'll probably be playful and sociable, but deadly as soon as a threat comes. He's seeking to prove that Kobolds can rival even the greatest barbarian warriors in the world.

Any suggestions or red flags?

[Silvercrys]

Are you looking at Unchained Barbarian/Unchained Rogue or Unchained Barbarian/Core Rogue?

What weapon(s) are you planning on fighting with?

Unchained Rogue 3/Unchained Barbarian 17 isn't a bad build for a Dex Barbarian, I don't think. There's an archetype for Core Rogue that allows you lose sneak attack and get bonus feats instead, though, called Phantom Thief. Not sure if it's compatible with Unchained Rogue (which you definitely want if you're using finesse weapons).

It's probably slightly weaker than a strength build in terms of damage (especially when you both build for pounce, as the strength barbarian gets it faster from not having a dip) but it should be ~fine I think.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Are you looking at Unchained Barbarian/Unchained Rogue or Unchained Barbarian/Core Rogue?

What weapon(s) are you planning on fighting with?

Maybe daggers and a rapier? I'm not even sure what the options are.

I didn't even know Unchained Rogue was a thing haha. I'm open to suggestions there. I have a good understanding of the concepts from my time in 3.5 and Modern, but I'm fresh-out-the-shrink-wrap new to the actual content of 3.p.

[Silvercrys]

Ah, okay.

Biggest difference for you is that Unchained Rogue can get Dex to Damage with one kind of weapon at level 3 to go with Weapon Finesse. Two shortswords might be better in that case, but if 3 levels is too much of an investment in Rogue (or you don't want to use two shortswords or daggers) you can get Dex to damage a couple other ways, like the Dervish Dance feat gives it to you with scimitars.

[Arkain]

Do you wish to fight with two weapons or one? Currently I'm imagining two weapons, but maybe that's just me. Anyway, point being if you go Unchained Rogue 3 you can apply dex to damage with any one finessable weapon type, e.g. kukris if you wanted to combine TWF and crit fishing. If you wanted to you could also actually go for an exotic weapon and try something like a small elven curved blade or even the rather weak PF spiked chain - because they can precisely be used with Weapon Finesse and should thus be eligible for dex to damage, allowing for fun times with Power Attack (admittedly, you'd need 13 strength for that, rather steep with the racial penalty) due to being two handed weapons. You could also go for natural weapons and/or something like kobold tail attachments, but unfortunately that doesn't mesh to well with the dex to damage part of the UC Rogue's finesse training, due to being too many weapon types.
In terms of classes, I'd be tempted to say instead of UC Rogue 3 for dex to damage, go 4, maybe even 5. 5 because of the additional sneak attack die, but more importantly, because it would give you a skill unlock, which seems to fit the character's cunning. Likewise, UC Rogue 4 would allow you to debuff enemies you sneak attack, which I find quite flavorful and offer another rogue talent. Oh yeah and do take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at some point. The obvious problem is that each level you don't take in Barbarian costs you not only rage powers, but also rage rounds, which are quite precious early on. Speaking of rage powers, if you go beast totem every level you take in a different class delays pounce.

I think this may also be the part where we ask how high the optimization level you strive for and the one you anticipate are, respectively.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Do you wish to fight with two weapons or one? Currently I'm imagining two weapons, but maybe that's just me. Anyway, point being if you go Unchained Rogue 3 you can apply dex to damage with any one finessable weapon type, e.g. kukris if you wanted to combine TWF and crit fishing. If you wanted to you could also actually go for an exotic weapon and try something like a small elven curved blade or even the rather weak PF spiked chain - because they can precisely be used with Weapon Finesse and should thus be eligible for dex to damage, allowing for fun times with Power Attack (admittedly, you'd need 13 strength for that, rather steep with the racial penalty) due to being two handed weapons. You could also go for natural weapons and/or something like kobold tail attachments, but unfortunately that doesn't mesh to well with the dex to damage part of the UC Rogue's finesse training, due to being too many weapon types.
In terms of classes, I'd be tempted to say instead of UC Rogue 3 for dex to damage, go 4, maybe even 5. 5 because of the additional sneak attack die, but more importantly, because it would give you a skill unlock, which seems to fit the character's cunning. Likewise, UC Rogue 4 would allow you to debuff enemies you sneak attack, which I find quite flavorful and offer another rogue talent. Oh yeah and do take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at some point. The obvious problem is that each level you don't take in Barbarian costs you not only rage powers, but also rage rounds, which are quite precious early on. Speaking of rage powers, if you go beast totem every level you take in a different class delays pounce.

I think this may also be the part where we ask how high the optimization level you strive for and the one you anticipate are, respectively.

I'd be open to either, I'm just curious what would work. I'll look into these options, and I'm hoping to be fairly optimal. The concept comes first in my mind though. Nothing you've said necessarily deviates from it yet so it's all helpful in considering options.

Edit: Here's the thing I forgot to mention. I'd like to be hard-ish to hit. I know rage in 3.p gives -2 AC, so it could be unreasonable. But I don't have a framework for what a good target AC would be for a cunning Barb or how to get it necessarily. This is where my experience with bounded accuracy limits me.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Two more questions: Does the Kobold really just suck in Pathfinder for this build? Seems like Goblin might be a much better option and wouldn't really deviate from what I'm wanting with the concept. Is there a way to get around light sensitivity?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Pathfinder kobolds are fairly weak in general. A goblin will do better in any dex-based build. And the -2 Con penalty kobolds have is a detriment to anyone seeking to stay in melee range.

However, because of this, kobolds ARE one of the best "Underdog races". So if you want to optimize that aspect of your concept, it's hard to do better than a kobold.

As for removing Light-sensitivity. Kobolds have an alternate racial trait called Day Raider that replaces their Darkvision with low-light vision and removes the light sensitivity.

As for build suggestion, I see a few options for you depending on your stats.

One-handed Build
For this build, you will want a means of added DEX to damage instead of strength. This is especially true if you go kobold. There are several ways to do this. There are the feats Dervish Dance, Piercing Grace, and Slashing grace. However, these feats have a few prerequisites so it may not be viable for non-fighter type classes.

You can also take 3 levels in unchained rogue, this will give you 2d6 sneak attack damage as well as the Weapon Finesse feat and DEX to damage with any one finesse weapon.

You can also just buy a weapon with the Agile weapon property. Although with the way weapon properties work you may not be able to afford this until level 7 or so.

You may want to pick up the feat Piranha Strike at some point. It is essentially a Power Attack but for light weapons. As such, it doesn't work with all finesse weapons (such as a rapier) but I've seen many a DM allow it to work with all one handed finesse weapons because why not. After that, you can take as many levels in BArbarian as you want. I recommend picking up the Urban Barbarian archetype for the ability to gain a bonus t oDEX while raging. It does, however, take away the "wilderness" aspect of the class.

The pros of this build is that (unless you are using the feats to get dex to damage) you can wear a shield for some added AC, which you mentioned is something you'd like. And you can still deal some respectable damage with iterative attacks when you factor in the sneak attack damage.

Two-handed build
Believe it or not, there is a few ways of getting DEX to damage with two-handed weapons. The problem is, you will probably want the feat Power Attack for the added damage, which has a prerequisite of Strength 13. Very costly for a kobold with their whopping -4 strength penalty.

For this build I recommend taking 3 levels in unchained rogue. The feats discussed in the previous suggestion only work with one-handed weapons, and the Agile weapon property doesn't benefit two-handed weapons.

For feats, you will want Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curve Blade). The elven curve blade is a two-handed weapon the is able to be finessed. After that, buy one whenever you get the chance.

The pros of this build is that, unlike in 5e, when you wield a weapon in both hands, you add 1.5x str to damage. This means that if you replace your strength for dex on a weapon that adds 1.5x strength mod, you add 1.5x Dex modifier instead.

As for other aspects of your build. I have no idea why people always seem to recommend "throwing daggers and then closing in" (I saw this recommended in your other thread and I see it was mentioned here). If you can throw a dagger, chances are you can also just walk up and smack them with a melee weapon, which in most cases will do more damage. The only reason I can see for any melee character choosing to use ranged weapons is if they wanted/needed to keep their distance, not "close the distance".

Hope this helps

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Pathfinder kobolds are fairly weak in general. A goblin will do better in any dex-based build. And the -2 Con penalty kobolds have is a detriment to anyone seeking to stay in melee range.

However, because of this, kobolds ARE one of the best "Underdog races". So if you want to optimize that aspect of your concept, it's hard to do better than a kobold.

As for removing Light-sensitivity. Kobolds have an alternate racial trait called Day Raider that replaces their Darkvision with low-light vision and removes the light sensitivity.

As for build suggestion, I see a few options for you depending on your stats.

One-handed Build
For this build, you will want a means of added DEX to damage instead of strength. This is especially true if you go kobold. There are several ways to do this. There are the feats Dervish Dance, Piercing Grace, and Slashing grace. However, these feats have a few prerequisites so it may not be viable for non-fighter type classes.

You can also take 3 levels in unchained rogue, this will give you 2d6 sneak attack damage as well as the Weapon Finesse feat and DEX to damage with any one finesse weapon.

You can also just buy a weapon with the Agile weapon property. Although with the way weapon properties work you may not be able to afford this until level 7 or so.

You may want to pick up the feat Piranha Strike at some point. It is essentially a Power Attack but for light weapons. As such, it doesn't work with all finesse weapons (such as a rapier) but I've seen many a DM allow it to work with all one handed finesse weapons because why not. After that, you can take as many levels in BArbarian as you want. I recommend picking up the Urban Barbarian archetype for the ability to gain a bonus t oDEX while raging. It does, however, take away the "wilderness" aspect of the class.

The pros of this build is that (unless you are using the feats to get dex to damage) you can wear a shield for some added AC, which you mentioned is something you'd like. And you can still deal some respectable damage with iterative attacks when you factor in the sneak attack damage.

Two-handed build
Believe it or not, there is a few ways of getting DEX to damage with two-handed weapons. The problem is, you will probably want the feat Power Attack for the added damage, which has a prerequisite of Strength 13. Very costly for a kobold with their whopping -4 strength penalty.

For this build I recommend taking 3 levels in unchained rogue. The feats discussed in the previous suggestion only work with one-handed weapons, and the Agile weapon property doesn't benefit two-handed weapons.

For feats, you will want Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curve Blade). The elven curve blade is a two-handed weapon the is able to be finessed. After that, buy one whenever you get the chance.

The pros of this build is that, unlike in 5e, when you wield a weapon in both hands, you add 1.5x str to damage. This means that if you replace your strength for dex on a weapon that adds 1.5x strength mod, you add 1.5x Dex modifier instead.

As for other aspects of your build. I have no idea why people always seem to recommend "throwing daggers and then closing in" (I saw this recommended in your other thread and I see it was mentioned here). If you can throw a dagger, chances are you can also just walk up and smack them with a melee weapon, which in most cases will do more damage. The only reason I can see for any melee character choosing to use ranged weapons is if they wanted/needed to keep their distance, not "close the distance".

Hope this helps

This is all great! I'll start teasing out the build options and get back to you guys with more specifics soon. And good point about the daggers. The only thing I could see would be wanting to wait until the right moment to get into melee depending on the arrangement of enemies or state of the battlefield.

[Arkain]

I'd be open to either, I'm just curious what would work. I'll look into these options, and I'm hoping to be fairly optimal. The concept comes first in my mind though. Nothing you've said necessarily deviates from it yet so it's all helpful in considering options.

Edit: Here's the thing I forgot to mention. I'd like to be hard-ish to hit. I know rage in 3.p gives -2 AC, so it could be unreasonable. But I don't have a framework for what a good target AC would be for a cunning Barb or how to get it necessarily. This is where my experience with bounded accuracy limits me.

Have you considered the Bloodrager class? Adds a bit of magic and particularly if you're going kobold, you'd end up with a good reason to go for, say, the draconic bloodline. Spells would go a long way to help you in terms of both versatility and aspects like not getting hit (e.g. via even something simple like a Shield spell or alternative protections like Mirror Image), while the class itself also keeps the barbaric flair. There is even an Urban Bloodrager archetype if you'd rather not lose AC to rage and get more dex along the way. May even go Dragon Disciple and focus on more dragon things (and thus also implicitly make up for levels lost to Rogue), though it's not quite clear if the bloodline is advanced, though it makes good sense. This also helps out with strength a bit, but is a way different direction, unless you're going to ignore all those juicy natural weapons, which I've already mentioned before as tricky due to finesse training. Thematically, it'd be somebody who goes from underdog kobold to manifesting their draconic heritage to the point of being able to become a dragon for short periods of time over the course of their adventures, which could be an interesting arc.

Besides that, the UC Barbarian also has rage powers called stances, some of which are defensive. Combine those with something like beast totem and the Urban Barbarian archetype as well as possibly a shield and you may end up with a surprisingly high AC. Admittedly, I'm not sure if an UC Barbarian can use that archetype, since the unchained rage is not based on attribute bonuses.


Two more questions: Does the Kobold really just suck in Pathfinder for this build? Seems like Goblin might be a much better option and wouldn't really deviate from what I'm wanting with the concept. Is there a way to get around light sensitivity?

Err, yes. I'm afraid they're mechanically mostly just worse. The fluff is different though and you do have some things that goblins don't get, such as a tail and the option to gain things like breath weapons and wings via feats, though the number of feats needed is quite high.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

UnRogue 3/UnBarbarian X is a fine build, but tbh you might want to just go full Rogue and VMC Barbarian for Rage. Be sure to ask your DM if you can use the Unchained version of rage to get flat bonus damage

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Okay, I just heard from the DM. Apparently there's a player that feels like it's unfair to use Unchained b/c they didn't have those options on player creation. That makes me nervous about whoever the player is in general, but that's besides the point. Is this still viable if I go Goblin and use the Core classes? My stats are 14s across the board but I can shift points around freely.

Right now I'm thinking this (Race modifiers included -2 STR, +4 DEX, -2 CHA): 10 STR, 22 DEX, 14 CON, 16 INT, 12 WIS, 10 CHA

If not viable, is Core Rogue okay with just DEX? I read that it lags behind and that's why they changed it in Unchained. What about a sniper build firing a longbow from cover to proc sneak attack? Does that work in Pathfinder if I'm hidden?

[Silvercrys]

Core rogue is ~fine, you just lose a little damage -- you're mostly a Barbarian, not a Rogue, so you won't notice the difference (much) other than needing an alternative way to get Dex to damage.

You could just play a straight Urban Barbarian 20. VMC Rogue isn't that great for you because you can't really sneak attack well without a flanking partner and your best options for Dex to damage at this point don't include two-weapon fighting as an option, anyway. Those are: Single Scimitar with Dervish Dance, single Rapier with Fencing Grace, any single light slashing weapon like Shortsword with Slashing Grace, and Elven Curveblade hoping to get the Agile property on it. And trying to fit TWF feats into a VMC build without bonus feats is rough since you lose six feats to the VMC and it takes, like, four feats to TWF effectively.

If you really want to TWF and think you'll have a flanking partner...

Scout Rogue 4/Urban Barbarian 11/Rogue +5 will give you mostly everything. At Rogue 4 you can add your 2d6 sneak attack damage to any charge even without a flanker or flat-footed target. At level 14 you can get Pounce from Greater Beast Totem (make sure you meet the prereqs, think you have to take lesser and regular Beast Totem first so you'll have to spend two rage powers on them before you hit Barbarian 10) and can pounce, making a full attack with both weapons and getting your sneak attack damage on every attack. You're basically leaning on your sneak attack to pick up your damage since you don't get an ability modifier to it (or at least, not a big one). Might want to make sure your DM won't nerf it before you get to too high a level, though, some DMs see that the Sorcerer can throw around a 14d6+14 Fireball a dozen times per day but think stuff like Scout's Charge + Pounce with half sneak attack progression is broken for some reason.

If you don't care about TWF you can just pick up an Elven Curveblade and two hand that, try to get the Agile property on your weapon otherwise your damage will be very low, though.

-------------

As far as Archery goes, you can make a decent archer out of a lot of classes, but Rogue isn't one I would pick. You can get lots of attacks with Rapid Shot and stuff to make up for losing TWF but actually getting Sneak Attack after the first round is really hard with ranged weapons, and just making one attack per round using the sniping rules isn't going to get you enough damage to remain relevant at higher levels. There are some ways of getting there, like using a really big bow (Large Orc Hornbow, preferably) and doing Scout Rogue 8/Mortal Usher 10/Rogue +2 with Greater Vital Strike, but generally the results aren't worth it compared to just going Fighter-or-Ranger instead (plus Mortal Usher is a prestige class from an adventure path, so possibly not kosher/a bit cheesy, though if you do decide on this for some reason you can take the Sniper archetype to increase the range you can sneak attack from to more than 30 ft).

[Arkain]

Your stats, with the given generation method, don't look too bad. The question is of course always how much wisdom you want for safety, as your will save is probably not going to have the highest base value.

Generally speaking, core Rogue is usually worse, yes. You'll have to jump through a couple hoops just to get dex to damage, for example. On the other hand, more archetypes are available, since iirc not all seem to be compatible with the UC variant. Take that last bist with a truckload of salt though, as it's just my vague memory. I'm at this moment not sure if there really are incompatible archetypes between the two class variants.
Concerning the long bow sniper, you'd first of all need the proficiency, which you don't have if you go full rogue, unless you're an elf, say. Then you get a hefty penalty for sniping, which would be kinda alleviated however, because goblins are really good at stealth. We're basically talking about a single shot you'd have to set up and I don't think that's exactly feasible, especially since you're not so much a "sniper" as somebody who hope to go unnoticed within 30 feet of the target. On the other hand, there's a Slayer archetype, fittingly called Sniper, which tries to deal with precisely those problems and of course there's magical support in the form of some spells (I guess, don't know any of the top of my head) and items, like Sniper Googles.
By the way, Slayer may be a compromise, as it's a bit of a more martial rogue. You could even use the aforementioned variant multi-classing and get a lot of your combat feats via the slayer talents. I'd first of all settle the potential trouble within the group, though.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Core rogue is fine. With the unchained rogue, you rogue a little easier than the basic rogue rogues. However without Finesse Training it becomes difficult to make a two-handed weapon dex build without significant investment in Fighter.

So your only other feasible option is either to purchase an Agile weapon, or take the following Feats: Weapon Finesse (you were gonna do this anyway), Weapon Focus (a prerequisite for...) Fencing/Slashing Grace (grants dex to damage with specific weapon). Or invest to skill points into Perform(Dance), pickup Weapon Proficiency(Scimitar), and then grab Dervish Dance. I recommend the former feat chain as you at least get a +1 Attack Bonus out of the whole affair.

This can be done with 3 levels of rogue if you use your rogue talent to gain a bonus combat feat. Or with 5 levels of barbarian (or 3 levels if you go for Dervish Dance). Or, again. Just buy an agile weapon as soon as you can.

Also, from what you said earlier... Is another player playing a rogue? That's the only reason I could see them complaining about another player using unchained if they didn't have those options to begin with. If that's the case, maybe make a straight barbarian using the urban barbarian archetype. Pickup either Fencing/Slashing Grace and grab Piranha Strike when you can. You should deal decent damage. Not spectacular, but you won't fall behind too much.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Core rogue is fine. With the unchained rogue, you rogue a little easier than the basic rogue rogues. However without Finesse Training it becomes difficult to make a two-handed weapon dex build without significant investment in Fighter.

So your only other feasible option is either to purchase an Agile weapon, or take the following Feats: Weapon Finesse (you were gonna do this anyway), Weapon Focus (a prerequisite for...) Fencing/Slashing Grace (grants dex to damage with specific weapon). Or invest to skill points into Perform(Dance), pickup Weapon Proficiency(Scimitar), and then grab Dervish Dance. I recommend the former feat chain as you at least get a +1 Attack Bonus out of the whole affair.

This can be done with 3 levels of rogue if you use your rogue talent to gain a bonus combat feat. Or with 5 levels of barbarian (or 3 levels if you go for Dervish Dance). Or, again. Just buy an agile weapon as soon as you can.

Also, from what you said earlier... Is another player playing a rogue? That's the only reason I could see them complaining about another player using unchained if they didn't have those options to begin with. If that's the case, maybe make a straight barbarian using the urban barbarian archetype. Pickup either Fencing/Slashing Grace and grab Piranha Strike when you can. You should deal decent damage. Not spectacular, but you won't fall behind too much.

No, there's no other players who went rogue, but there is one Barbarian so it may be him. And if I've just got access to the Core Rulebook I don't think I can go Urban Barbarian can I?

All may not be lost though...the DM did say he was going to give me a magic item or two, so I could potentially get a magic agile weapon or something that allows me to add Dex to damage. Anything in particular I should request? I might still go base barbarian with high Dex and Weapon Finesse if I can get that kind of magic item.

[TheFamilarRaven]

No, there's no other players who went rogue, but there is one Barbarian so it may be him. And if I've just got access to the Core Rulebook I don't think I can go Urban Barbarian can I?

All may not be lost though...the DM did say he was going to give me a magic item or two, so I could potentially get a magic agile weapon or something that allows me to add Dex to damage. Anything in particular I should request? I might still go base barbarian with high Dex and Weapon Finesse if I can get that kind of magic item.

I would find it odd that you have to stick to core only for classes but can play non-core races. I would ask if it's alright to use the archetype. Presumably other players had access to these options and it would be on them for not choosing to capitalize on the opportunity.

However, if you can't get that archetype, not having a DEX boost from rage is really gonna hurt, as then there is basically no reason to use rage on your character and thus you have a pretty useless classes feature. I'd say you'd be better off as a Fighter or Rogue if that's the case, but that's just me. Fighter has a way of getting dex-to-damage with most (if not all) weapon types depending on what books you're allowed, that is to say, a core only Fighter is pretty starved for goodies. So scrap that idea.

Unless you mean you physically only have access to core and you can only use what you can bring. I believe you're already aware all of Pathfinder's material can be found on the PFSRD or Archives of Nethys :smalltongue:

As for items ... I'm actually terrible at gearing up characters. :smalltongue: I can't think of anything that is a "must have" for you aside from an agile weapon (if you don't use feats to get dex-to-damage), other than your basic stat boosting items (Belt of Dexterity), and save boosting cloaks (Cloak of Resistance)