Dwarf vs Centaur Barbarian

[Master O'Laughs]

I decided to make a Zealot Barbarian Cloistered Scholar instead of a caster for the West Marches game.

Aiming for more beer and pretzels of a persona rather than serious.

A question on race though, ability scores are a flat +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1 to Str/Dex/Con so that doesn't matter.

Mountain Dwarf gets all the dwarf stuff plus an extra 1d4 damage whenever using a martial melee weapon. I am thinking of going Polearm Master at lvl 4 so I can more consistently get reaction attacks as well as constantly have bonus action attacks available.

Centaur gets me more movement, I am a mount for allies, an extra skill and a free bonus action attack when moving at least 30 feet towards a target. Here I would consider instead of Polearm master going GWM or Sentinel.

Lastly, am I best off going GWM at lvl 4 to increase damage with reckless attack either way?

I was thinking of getting 2 feats but wondering if at most I should go 1 feat (GWM most likely then) and aim for maxing Str and then Con.

[strangebloke]

Is the Mountain Dwarf being +2/+1 a homebrew thing? Usually its +2 STR /+2 CON

Personally I prefer the Centaur since you're starting at level 1. The reason to go mountain dwarf is that you can get to 18 CON and 18 STR with your first ASI but realistically you won't be doing that here until level 8 or even level 12. Centaur is also very flavorful for the whole barbarian warrior scholar angle you're playing. Chiron was a teacher, but also a wild beast.

PAM is very popular for barbarians because generally you don't have a use for your bonus action, but personally I am not a fan. Reaction attacks cannot be reckless, and you can't use the haft attack on the first round. To compare it to just getting +2 STR comparison at level five:
With PAM: (1d10+3+3)*2 + 1d4+3+3 + 1d8 = 36
With ASI: (2d6+4+3)*2 +1d8 = 32.5

So PAM gives you 3.5 more damage per turn on average if you hit, but the ASI gives you better athletics, grappling, more diverse weapon choice... If you want the reaction attacks, go for PAM but otherwise don't bother.

Of course, GWM changes things, and to be honest you really need GWM as a barbarian. The chief saving grace of the barbarian is that they have ridiculously high attack modifiers courtesy of Reckless Attack. In fact, their attack modifiers are so high that they're almost pointless. Having (effectively) a +11 modifier to your attacks at level 5 is kind of overkill, and things get worse from there. So yeah, GWM help you turn that unnecessary attack bonus into sweet sweet damage.

Personally though I find that the greatest frustration I see barbarians having is being unable to do anything against flying/mobile opponents. So for fun, consider this idea: You duel-wield hand-axes, take the mobile feat, and run your enemies down with 60 feet of movement in a turn as it right and proper for a horse-man.

[Master O'Laughs]

Is the Mountain Dwarf being +2/+1 a homebrew thing? Usually its +2 STR /+2 CON

Personally I prefer the Centaur since you're starting at level 1. The reason to go mountain dwarf is that you can get to 18 CON and 18 STR with your first ASI but realistically you won't be doing that here until level 8 or even level 12. Centaur is also very flavorful for the whole barbarian warrior scholar angle you're playing. Chiron was a teacher, but also a wild beast.

PAM is very popular for barbarians because generally you don't have a use for your bonus action, but personally I am not a fan. Reaction attacks cannot be reckless, and you can't use the haft attack on the first round. To compare it to just getting +2 STR comparison at level five:
With PAM: (1d10+3+3)*2 + 1d4+3+3 + 1d8 = 36
With ASI: (2d6+4+3)*2 +1d8 = 32.5

So PAM gives you 3.5 more damage per turn on average if you hit, but the ASI gives you better athletics, grappling, more diverse weapon choice... If you want the reaction attacks, go for PAM but otherwise don't bother.

Of course, GWM changes things, and to be honest you really need GWM as a barbarian. The chief saving grace of the barbarian is that they have ridiculously high attack modifiers courtesy of Reckless Attack. In fact, their attack modifiers are so high that they're almost pointless. Having (effectively) a +11 modifier to your attacks at level 5 is kind of overkill, and things get worse from there. So yeah, GWM help you turn that unnecessary attack bonus into sweet sweet damage.

Personally though I find that the greatest frustration I see barbarians having is being unable to do anything against flying/mobile opponents. So for fun, consider this idea: You duel-wield hand-axes, take the mobile feat, and run your enemies down with 60 feet of movement in a turn as it right and proper for a horse-man.

Yes the attribute thing is a house rule. To compensate, mountain dwarves deal and extra 1d4 damage with melee martial weapons.

So their damage would be:
GWM - (2d6+1d4+2+3)*2 = 29 avg damage before GWM is added on @ lvl 5
vs
PAM - (1d10+1d4+2+3)*2+(2d4+2+3) = 36 avg damage

If GWM is assumed to hit then GWM avg damage increases to 49. That is a big assumption but less so with barbarian I guess?

One question if GWM is gone for over PAM is what should/could be done with my bonus action or does it just sit there not being used?

[strangebloke]

Yes the attribute thing is a house rule. To compensate, mountain dwarves deal and extra 1d4 damage with melee martial weapons.

So their damage would be:
GWM - (2d6+1d4+2+3)*2 = 29 avg damage before GWM is added on @ lvl 5
vs
PAM - (1d10+1d4+2+3)*2+(2d4+2+3) = 36 avg damage

Ah, I see. You weren't telling the whole story. :smallwink: +1d4 damage per hit is actually insanely strong so I would definitely go for that if its an option.


If GWM is assumed to hit then GWM avg damage increases to 49. That is a big assumption but less so with barbarian I guess?
It isn't. Advantage is something like a +4 to attack which nearly totally offsets the penalty from GWM. You won't hit all the time but you'll hit just a little less often than a fighter who isn't using GWM. Heck, when you get to high levels you may not even both with reckless!

YOne question if GWM is gone for over PAM is what should/could be done with my bonus action or does it just sit there not being used?
GWM will grant you a bonus action attack when you crit or drop an enemy to zero. Given that you're attacking twice a round with advantage and you're dealing a lot of damage, I usually find that Barbarians get the GWM bonus action attack on about half of all turns. Plus, you need to use one bonus action at the start of combat to start raging.

Beyond that? Don't really worry about it. PAM is a good feat, but its not crazy unless you want to combo it with GWM, and even then its GWM that's doing most of the work.

Oh, if you really want a bonus action though, multiclassing into rogue or fighter for a few levels really isn't a bad idea at all.

Fighter gives you second wind, fighting styles, and action surge. All great on a barbarian
Rogue sneak attack doesn't apply if you're using a great weapon, but expertise and cunning action are still great on a barbarian.

[Master O'Laughs]

Ah, I see. You weren't telling the whole story. :smallwink: +1d4 damage per hit is actually insanely strong so I would definitely go for that if its an option.


It isn't. Advantage is something like a +4 to attack which nearly totally offsets the penalty from GWM. You won't hit all the time but you'll hit just a little less often than a fighter who isn't using GWM. Heck, when you get to high levels you may not even both with reckless!

GWM will grant you a bonus action attack when you crit or drop an enemy to zero. Given that you're attacking twice a round with advantage and you're dealing a lot of damage, I usually find that Barbarians get the GWM bonus action attack on about half of all turns. Plus, you need to use one bonus action at the start of combat to start raging.

Beyond that? Don't really worry about it. PAM is a good feat, but its not crazy unless you want to combo it with GWM, and even then its GWM that's doing most of the work.

Oh, if you really want a bonus action though, multiclassing into rogue or fighter for a few levels really isn't a bad idea at all.

Fighter gives you second wind, fighting styles, and action surge. All great on a barbarian
Rogue sneak attack doesn't apply if you're using a great weapon, but expertise and cunning action are still great on a barbarian.


I am considering Fighter 3 at some point for champion increase crit range.

What would be a good break point to take the fighter levels? Maybe after Barb 8?

That would mean I would then have 18 Strength and GWM. Going 3 levels of fighter would mean I miss out on Indomitable Might which seems worth it.

[Brookshw]

Why does Mountain Dwarf get an extra d4 damage with a martial weapon? I think I'm overlooking something very basic.....

[Master O'Laughs]

Why does Mountain Dwarf get an extra d4 damage with a martial weapon? I think I'm overlooking something very basic.....

House rule for the setting. Instead of normal +2 to STR and CON, all races simply get +2/+1 to a certain class determined abilities.

To compensate Mountain Dwarves they get the +1d4 with melee martial weapons.

Half elves get to pick only certain variant half elf abilities in addition to normal stuff

Variant Humans are the default and basically get a straight buff as being the only Race to be able to pull of +4 total from race on ability scores.


TL:DR It is a homebrew thing for the campaign setting.

[CheddarChampion]

You could start with 17/14/14/10/10/10 as a dwarf and pick up squat nimbleness as an alternative to +2 Str.

Simplified DPR calculation (if you care):
(Assumptions: Advantage from RA gives an average +3.3 accuracy, rounded down to +3. I consider the PAM reaction and the GWM bonus to happen 1/2 the time. Centaur charge happens 50% of the time if you don't get GWM. Let's get an AC 17 enemy so you hit 50% of the time with +6.)

PAM dwarf turn 1 - 2x(1d10+1d4+5 @ +9 accuracy) and 50% chance of 1x(1d10+1d4+5 @ +6). Expect 21.25 damage.

PAM dwarf turn 2+ - 2x(1d10+1d4+5 @ +9), 1x(2d4+5 @ +9) and 50% chance of 1x(1d10+1d4+5 @ +6). Expect 27.63 damage.

GWM centaur turn 1 - 2x(1d10+15 @ +4). Expect 16.40 damage.

GWM centaur turn 2+ - 2x(1d10+15 @ +4), 50% chance of 1x(1d10+15 @ +4), 25% chance of 1x(1d4+5 @ +9). Expect 21.72 damage.

If an enemy has less AC, GWM gets better comparatively. If an enemy has more AC, the reverse.

I don't know what kind of enemies you'll be fighting. Moderate to high AC - dwarf is better. Low AC, centaur might be better.

[strangebloke]

I am considering Fighter 3 at some point for champion increase crit range.

What would be a good break point to take the fighter levels? Maybe after Barb 8?

That would mean I would then have 18 Strength and GWM. Going 3 levels of fighter would mean I miss out on Indomitable Might which seems worth it.

Five or eight are the break points, yeah. I'd say that you want two to four levels of fighter and one or two levels of rogue with this build.

[Master O'Laughs]

Five or eight are the break points, yeah. I'd say that you want two to four levels of fighter and one or two levels of rogue with this build.

Okay, reason I think 8 is because I am leaning GWM for first ASI since AC's should still be low to make the most of it. Then get to Barb 8 asap for +2 Str. Is the extra ASI from Fighter 4 (as opposed to Fighter 3) worth missing out on the next increase in Brutal Critical? Also would miss 6 rages/day which shouldn't be an issue but could be.

Realizing it would be slightly sad to not get the "Always angry" mode at Barb 20

[strangebloke]

Okay, reason I think 8 is because I am leaning GWM for first ASI since AC's should still be low to make the most of it. Then get to Barb 8 asap for +2 Str. Is the extra ASI from Fighter 4 (as opposed to Fighter 3) worth missing out on the next increase in Brutal Critical? Also would miss 6 rages/day which shouldn't be an issue but could be.

Realizing it would be slightly sad to not get the "Always angry" mode at Barb 20

Brutal Critical is honestly just kind of a meh ability.

Like.

crit w/o brutal critical: 2d12 (crit) + 5(str) + 3(rage) + 10 (GWM) = 31
crit w/ brutal critical: 2d12 (crit) + 5(str) + 3(rage) + 10 (GWM) = 37

As to 20th level capstones, don't sweat it. Almost no campaigns actually get that far.