Any way to compensate for bloodline levels as a spellcaster? [3.5]

[Luckmann]

I'm toying around with some ideas, and it occurred to me that bloodline levels seem incredibly debilitating to spellcasters especially. In particular, having a Major Bloodline means throwing 3 levels into it, which means you'll never have more spells/day and spells known than level 17, i.e. no lvl 9 spells.

Which raised the interesting question: Does anyone know a way to compensate for this loss? Gaining caster levels isn't that hard (Bloodlines advance it, Practiced Spellcaster can compensate, etc.) but spells/day and spells known seems way harder - but is it impossible?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bloodlines aren't levels precisely--they don't increase character level, and thus don't increase the amount of XP you need to reach the next level. Effectively, you are paying 2000 XP at level 2, 5000 XP at level 5, and 11 000 XP at level 11 to get the benefits of a major bloodline. That sum total of 18 000 XP is slightly less than the XP required to go from level 19 to level 20. If you allow for a small increase in XP from encounters--since bloodline benefits allow you to handle slightly stronger challenges--the number of encounters needed to hit level 20 with a major bloodline is no greater than the number of encounters required to hit level 20 without a bloodline.

However, a clever optimizer will note that the XP cost is only 1000 at level 1, and you can take bloodline levels at any point before the listed level, so you could get all major bloodline benefits for as little as 3000 XP, if you take each bloodline level after your first hit die.

As for your original question: Abilities that increase spellcasting level beyond HD are very rare. There are some ways to do it--the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage ritual (kobold only), the Loredrake draconic archetype (true dragon only), the right creatures' racial casting (which can be acquired with fusion + astral seed or polymorph any object or magic jar or true mind switch etcetera), or a template (dragonspawn--usually white is preferred). Certain quick-progression classes can provide higher-level spells than normal, such as Ur-Priest and Beholder Mage, which can be combined with CL boosts to achieve what is essentially spellcasting beyond HD.

[Kaleph]

Bloodlines aren't levels precisely--they don't increase character level, and thus don't increase the amount of XP you need to reach the next level. Effectively, you are paying 2000 XP at level 2, 5000 XP at level 5, and 11 000 XP at level 11 to get the benefits of a major bloodline. That sum total of 18 000 XP is slightly less than the XP required to go from level 19 to level 20.

Are you sure? That's really not what I understood when I've read their description - at least not RAI.

Is your ruling a "consensus" RAW reading?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Are you sure? That's really not what I understood when I've read their description - at least not RAI.

Is your ruling a "consensus" RAW reading?
I'd have to ask the concensus, but a few things are clear (and a whole lot more is murky).

(1) You must take "class levels in "bloodline"", whatever that means. I take that to mean that you must attain an experience total high enough to take another class level, and then spend/reserve that XP for your bloodline level, as you would for a class level.
(2) Bloodlines do not increase character level. This is explicit.
(3) Bloodlines do not increase level adjustment or ECL. This is implicit: it is not called out as increasing LA or ECL, and class levels do not do so by default (except by increasing character level). The text does specify that bloodline levels are 'instead of static level adjustment' (paraphrased), which could be interpreted as "it's a dynamic level adjustment" or "it's something entirely different" (like an XP cost, as with LA buyoff).


The concensus is that bloodlines-as-increasing-LA are broken in places, but generally weak outside of specific shenanigans, and bloodlines-as-3k-XP-cost are broken in places, and generally strong.

[Kaleph]

I'd have to ask the concensus, but a few things are clear (and a whole lot more is murky).

(1) You must take "class levels in "bloodline"", whatever that means. I take that to mean that you must attain an experience total high enough to take another class level, and then spend/reserve that XP for your bloodline level, as you would for a class level.
(2) Bloodlines do not increase character level. This is explicit.
(3) Bloodlines do not increase level adjustment or ECL. This is implicit: it is not called out as increasing LA or ECL, and class levels do not do so by default (except by increasing character level). The text does specify that bloodline levels are 'instead of static level adjustment' (paraphrased), which could be interpreted as "it's a dynamic level adjustment" or "it's something entirely different".


The concensus is that bloodlines-as-increasing-LA are broken in places, but generally weak outside of specific shenanigans, and bloodlines-as-3k-XP-cost are broken in places, and generally strong.

I see. I also recognize where the different views are coming from:


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

(Emphasis mine).

You say the sentence means there's no character level increase at all, I read as - yes, there's a character level increase, but it follows separate rules.

There are some points in the paragraph that may support my thesis and others that support yours; hard to understand what they were meaning.

Anyhow I agree that LA-blodlines are weak (but in line with LA races).

@OP: sorry for slightly derailing the post, but clarifying this aspect is necessary.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You say the sentence means there's no character level increase at all, I read as - yes, there's a character level increase, but it follows separate rules.
That would make a lot of sense, and probably was intended, but none of the subsequent text actually lays out how it does increase character level (it's also hard to see how an increase in character level would be a "benefit", since it reduces XP gains, but that aside). It lays out how it increases class level (bloodline levels are included in calculations involving class level, etcetera), but no increase to character level is mentioned, and, crucially, the XP required to level up is based on (effective) character level, not class level.

I mean, I totally agree with you that it's probably an editorial mistake, a confusion possibly arising from the fact that Wizards never considered multi-classing (how different examples would have been had they been called Barbarians!), but the text is still what it is.

[Luckmann]

@OP: sorry for slightly derailing the post, but clarifying this aspect is necessary.I don't mind at all, especially since it raises interesting issues. It seems to me that Bloodlines are far too vague to be depended upon. I really woncer what they intended.

Re-reading it with the added input here and in other threads I dug up by googling, it actually seems like you.. don't have to pay anything. It never says. It just says that you need to take a bloodline level, but that it's not a character level (maybe), so ECL arguably would not increase (which initially seems to be the intent), but then there is seemingly no cost at all; even the idea that you basically "burn" experience similar to the rules for Reducing LA seems to be an extrapolation on inference.

[Dimers]

Bloodline levels are directly compared to LA. "Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference." That makes it sound (to me) like the intent is an entire lost level. Not that that's an optimal tradeoff, of course, but neither is almost any LA that WotC has assigned.

The only time I really consider taking bloodline levels is in gestalt. Gestalt paladins, especially. They get sooooo much level-based stuff.

[weckar]

The bloodlines all give fairly minor boosts anyway. Nothing there is going to utterly break a character that was not broken already.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The bloodlines all give fairly minor boosts anyway. Nothing there is going to utterly break a character that was not broken already.

Well, there's always the Titan bloodline, for wielding a Gargantuan hammer regardless of your own size. Okay, that's probably not strong enough to qualify as broken, but the idea of a Pixie wielding a hammer large enough to smash buildings will never stop being hilariously stupid.

EDIT: More seriously, there are some prestige classes that get a truly absurd benefit from more 'effective' levels. Such as Hellfire Warlock, which could get another 2d6 damage on all attacks for each bloodline level taken after entering the class.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm toying around with some ideas, and it occurred to me that bloodline levels seem incredibly debilitating to spellcasters especially. In particular, having a Major Bloodline means throwing 3 levels into it, which means you'll never have more spells/day and spells known than level 17, i.e. no lvl 9 spells.

Which raised the interesting question: Does anyone know a way to compensate for this loss? Gaining caster levels isn't that hard (Bloodlines advance it, Practiced Spellcaster can compensate, etc.) but spells/day and spells known seems way harder - but is it impossible?

I've actually toyed with the idea of using bloodlines as an intentional nerf to casters (and high-tier classes in general). Tier 1 classes must take a major bloodline to explain the source of their power, T2 an intermediate, and T3 a minor, all using the "increases ECL" interpretation. Maybe also give T4 a minor bloodline, T5 an intermediate, and T6 a major, using the "doesn't increase ECL" interpretation to boost their power too, but that doesn't fit the fluff justification as well.

The idea is that this nerfs full casters while still giving them more things to play with, so hopefully the classes don't become less fun to play. I'd probably have to tweak it somewhat, maybe making it so the bloodline levels are taken later rather than earlier (when martials are already keeping up in the early game). I'd also probably create/allow for some custom 'bloodlines' to allow for power sources other than heritage, e.g. studying, luck, that sort of thing.

[Bphill561]

Well, there's always the Titan bloodline, for wielding a Gargantuan hammer regardless of your own size. Okay, that's probably not strong enough to qualify as broken, but the idea of a Pixie wielding a hammer large enough to smash buildings will never stop being hilariously stupid.

EDIT: More seriously, there are some prestige classes that get a truly absurd benefit from more 'effective' levels. Such as Hellfire Warlock, which could get another 2d6 damage on all attacks for each bloodline level taken after entering the class.

I am rather fond of Fiend of Possession with more magic item boosts. Also seems to work better with psionics than magic.

[RatElemental]

(2) Bloodlines do not increase character level. This is explicit.


I always thought it was rather explicit that they did increase character level.



A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

[weckar]

You know what, I am starting to think this whole thing was just badly written.

[Luckmann]

I always thought it was rather explicit that they did increase character level.

Nothing you quoted mentions character level, and the section explicitly says:
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does,

[HouseRules]

Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_effectivecharacterlevel&alpha=)
effective character level

This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an effective character level (ECL) of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character.


Hit Dice increases Class Level and Character Level.
--Character Hit Dice increases Character Class Level, and Character Level.
--Racial Hit Dice increases Racial Class Level, and Character Level.
--Template Hit Dice increases Template Class Level, and Character Level.
Level Adjustment increases Class Level, but not Character Level.
--Racial Level Adjustment increases Racial Class Level, but not Character Level.
--Template Level Adjustment increases Template Class Level, but not Character Level.
Bloodline increases Bloodline Class Level, but not Character Level.

Guess which definition it fits better: Hit Dice or Level Adjustment?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bloodline levels say they don't increase Character Level, but it doesn't say they don't increase Effective Character Level. It's most likely that it was intended that they increase ECL, but they forgot to say so. It's ultimately up to your DM to make a ruling on it.

The most liberal interpretation is that it doesn't increase character level or ECL, so a 1st level character who hits 1,000 xp gains his first bloodline level, it doesn't count as anything, he's still a 1st level character with 1,000 xp and gets to level-up again. Thus you could take all three of your bloodline levels and still gain a second class level (with max skill ranks of a 5th level character even).

An ad-hoc ruling to avoid the above making them completely free would be to make them cost the difference between the previous level and the current level in XP. So a 1st level character needs to gain 1,000 xp to reach 2nd level, if that's taken as a bloodline level the character still needs to gain another 1,000 xp to gain his actual second level. If you choose to gain all three bloodline levels back to back, you pay a total of 3,000 xp, and each successive character level takes 3,000 xp more than what's printed on the table. Characters of 1st-3rd level gain xp evenly, so you wouldn't start catching up until the rest of the party reaches 4th level. A 1st level character in a 4th level party isn't going to contribute much, so this is not recommended if starting at a low level.

The likely most RAI interpretation is that a 1st level character who hits 1,000 xp and gains a bloodline level is now ECL 2, and must reach 3,000 xp before gaining another level. Ideally you would be able to buy off that ECL increase the same way level adjustment can be bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), i.e. at your 3rd class level (ECL 4) you pay 3,000 xp and you go to ECL 3 with current experience appropriate for a 3rd level character. You would still have the benefits of increased max skill ranks and other class-level-dependent calculations, but it wouldn't be as much of a hindrance on your level progression. It wouldn't matter when you gain each bloodline level, as long as it's by the time you're required to for your bloodline, but you want to buy each one off as early as possible as it's a lower xp cost to do so.

If bloodline levels increase ECL and can't be bought off, they're generally not worth using, but could make some NPCs more interesting.

[HouseRules]

Usually, they can only be bought off after the character completes the sequence. Thus, finish the sequence earlier is better.

Level 1: Your Class 1
Level 2: Bloodline 1
Level 3: Bloodline 2
Level 4: Bloodline 4
(9 levels after LA +3)
Level 13: Your Class 10
Level 13+: LA Reduction 1
(6 levels after LA +2)
Level 14: Your Class 12
Level 19: Your Class 17
Level 19+: LA Reduction 2
(3 levels after LA +1)
Level 20: Your Class 19
Level 22: Your Class 21
Level 22+: LA Reduction 3
Level 23: Your Class 23

[Silvercrys]

Saying it "seems more like a level adjustment than a class level/fits the glossary definition better of a level adjustment better" might go to RAI but not to RAW; RAW is pretty explicit that it is different from: a normal class level, a racial hit die, or a level adjustment. It is a "level" in a special class called "bloodline", and in fact the glossary definition supports the more powerful reading by saying you only add hit dice and level adjustment, of which Bloodlines are neither.

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

If they meant hit dice, they should have said hit dice, not character level. The italics say that when you take a level in a normal (non-bloodline) class your character level increases, but it does not when you take a class level of "bloodline". This is the plainest reading of the passage without inserting extra words.

Did they intend to write "hit dice" instead of "character level"? Possibly. But they did not write "hit dice". They wrote "character level", which is a defined game term and is not increased by taking a level of "bloodline" as written.

There is, however, an argument that class levels of "bloodline" increase your Effective Character level. This is from the SRD section on Monsters as characters:

"To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character."

Now, read literally, these rules only apply if you are a playing a monster character. I suppose you could consider all characters with a bloodline to be monster characters, but that's not RAW, either.

But it does say that, to calculate Effective Character Level, you add your level adjustment to your racial hit dice and character class levels. "Character class levels" do technically include levels of "bloodline".

I believe the counter argument to this rests on claiming that "character class levels" means "character level", which Bloodlines are exempt from, as above, but "character class levels" are not actually literally the same thing as the defined game term "character level".

So, my reading of the RAW is that non-monster characters with a bloodline do not add bloodlines to their ECL (because they don't have an ECL unless they are a monster character). A Human Rogue 2/Bloodline 1 character has 3 max skill ranks and a character level of 2 for determining how much XP they need to level and how much XP they gain from encounters.

RAI is probably that it works like a less awful level adjustment that still increases some numbers for your character like max skill ranks, yes.

It doesn't count as a Level Adjustment at any point, though, by my reading, so it cannot be bought off.

Definitely written badly in any case, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Usually, they can only be bought off after the character completes the sequence. Thus, finish the sequence earlier is better.

Level 1: Your Class 1
Level 2: Bloodline 1
Level 3: Bloodline 2
Level 4: Bloodline 4
(9 levels after LA +3)
Level 13: Your Class 10
Level 13+: LA Reduction 1
(6 levels after LA +2)
Level 14: Your Class 12
Level 19: Your Class 17
Level 19+: LA Reduction 2
(3 levels after LA +1)
Level 20: Your Class 19
Level 22: Your Class 21
Level 22+: LA Reduction 3
Level 23: Your Class 23

"Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1."

You don't need to gain X class levels after gaining the level adjustment, you just need your total levels to equal three times the current level adjustment. So it's more efficient to do it like...

ECL 4: Classes 3/ Bloodline 1 (order doesn't matter), your class levels are three times your level adjustment and you reduce it by one (-3,000 xp, ECL becomes 3).
ECL 7: Classes 6/ Bloodline 2 (reduced by 1) (order doesn't matter), your class levels are three times your level adjustment (pre-reduction) and you reduce it by one (-6,000 xp, ECL becomes 6).
ECL 10: Classes 9/ Bloodline 3 (reduced by 2) (order doesn't matter), your class levels are three times your level adjustment (pre-reduction) and you reduce it by one (-9,000 xp, ECL becomes 9).

[HouseRules]

Saying it "seems more like a level adjustment than a class level/fits the glossary definition better of a level adjustment better" might go to RAI but not to RAW; RAW is pretty explicit that it is different from: a normal class level, a racial hit die, or a level adjustment. It is a "level" in a special class called "bloodline", and in fact the glossary definition supports the more powerful reading by saying you only add hit dice and level adjustment, of which Bloodlines are neither.

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

If they meant hit dice, they should have said hit dice, not character level. The italics say that when you take a level in a normal (non-bloodline) class your character level increases, but it does not when you take a class level of "bloodline". This is the plainest reading of the passage without inserting extra words.

Did they intend to write "hit dice" instead of "character level"? Possibly. But they did not write "hit dice". They wrote "character level", which is a defined game term and is not increased by taking a level of "bloodline" as written.

There is, however, an argument that class levels of "bloodline" increase your Effective Character level. This is from the SRD section on Monsters as characters:

"To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character."

Now, read literally, these rules only apply if you are a playing a monster character. I suppose you could consider all characters with a bloodline to be monster characters, but that's not RAW, either.

But it does say that, to calculate Effective Character Level, you add your level adjustment to your racial hit dice and character class levels. "Character class levels" do technically include levels of "bloodline".

I believe the counter argument to this rests on claiming that "character class levels" means "character level", which Bloodlines are exempt from, as above, but "character class levels" are not actually literally the same thing as the defined game term "character level".

So, my reading of the RAW is that non-monster characters with a bloodline do not add bloodlines to their ECL (because they don't have an ECL unless they are a monster character). A Human Rogue 2/Bloodline 1 character has 3 max skill ranks and a character level of 2 for determining how much XP they need to level and how much XP they gain from encounters.

RAI is probably that it works like a less awful level adjustment that still increases some numbers for your character like max skill ranks, yes.

It doesn't count as a Level Adjustment at any point, though, by my reading, so it cannot be bought off.

Definitely written badly in any case, though.

Character Class Level is the verbose way to say Class Level just like Spellcaster Level is a verbose way to say Caster Level.


"Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1."

You don't need to gain X class levels after gaining the level adjustment, you just need your total levels to equal three times the current level adjustment. So it's more efficient to do it like...

ECL 4: Classes 3/ Bloodline 1 (order doesn't matter), your class levels are three times your level adjustment and you reduce it by one (-3,000 xp, ECL becomes 3).
ECL 7: Classes 6/ Bloodline 2 (reduced by 1) (order doesn't matter), your class levels are three times your level adjustment (pre-reduction) and you reduce it by one (-6,000 xp, ECL becomes 6).
ECL 10: Classes 9/ Bloodline 3 (reduced by 2) (order doesn't matter), your class levels are three times your level adjustment (pre-reduction) and you reduce it by one (-9,000 xp, ECL becomes 9).

Template Progression
ECL 4: Classes 3/Half Dragon 1
ECL 7: Classes 6/Half Dragon 2
ECL 10: Classes 9/Half Dragon 3

[Silvercrys]

Yes, I said that and agreed with it, but the rules for ECL only "technically" apply to monster characters as written.