Longtime Martial, First-Time Ranger

[Khi'Khi]

Greetings all,

This is my first time playing a ranger in 5e, and the first time playing a half-caster (only previous magic experience was cleric) Hoping to get some build advice from those who are way better at numbers than me!

The build so far:

Half Orc
Starting Level 3
Gloom Stalker
Looking to spec melee dual-wield

Need advice on:

Feats (I'm thinking Mobile for a 1st)
Spells
Stats (starting: 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8)
Anything else I've forgotten

I'm willing to multiclass in the future but house rules say single class to start. Any advice is appreciated!

[strangebloke]

Generally speaking, Rangers aren't really that good at TWF.

but they aren't bad either. Let's break it down.


Feats: Mobile is a great choice. Gloomstalkers really want to be attacking while the enemy is surprised and that presents a challenge for a melee build. I'd generally say that archery is better here but for TWF you definitely want something like mobile that can get you in close in a real hurry. Duel Wielder is kind of a trap option so I wouldn't reccomend it unless you have already maxed-out your Strength. Another fun one is Prodigy:Stealth although TBH that can be overkill. All depends on what you want to fixate on.

Spells: Hunter's Mark, unfortunately, is going to be kind of hard to properly set up. Longstrider helps with movement speed so you should consider casting it before a fight. Pass without Trace, Healing spirit, and spike growth are all very powerful spells. Remember that you can use hunter's mark for tracking purposes. Guardian of Nature is your real capstone. Ignore that 'foe slayer' garbage.

Stats: I always like to see a Str-based Ranger, but in this instance it does feel a little weird. Your shortswords are finesse anyway so it seems like a Wood Elf with low STR would be a better fit here. I guess you were just really committed to a half-orc ranger with twin swords? Anyway, sticking with the Str-based build, I would say your stat distribution is fine. You could probably go down to 14 STR before racial modifiers unless you have a specific plan and give the rest of your stats a buff. (Something more like 14/14/13/12/12/8?)

Basically, I think everything looks solid. Looks like a fun character! After level 5 or 9 you may want to consider multiclassing to Rogue for a few levels, as in my experience that makes the ranger a bit more fun to play. (Levels 10 and 6 don't actually give you any class features worth speaking of.)

[Makorel]

Are these stats before or after you add your racial modifiers? A strength based Ranger wants high Strength, as much Constitution as they can get, exactly 14 Dex to max medium armor, and honestly Rangers aren't as beholden to Wisdom as you might think. A lot of their best spells don't key off of their wisdom so you'd be okay dumping it.

For a Dual Wielder character you may want the Dual Wielder feat to use non-light weapons. You don't get much value upgrading from d6 to d8 though. Warcaster might be a better pick because Rangers rely a lot on combat magic.

If you want Mobile as a feat, try out the Zephyr Strike spell first. It allows you to move without provoking opportunity attacks so you can essentially "test drive" having mobile and see if it's worth a feat to you.

The Ranger's best assets for doing martial damage is their spells. Two Weapon Fighting isn't particularly strong unless you can keep Hunter's Mark up without having to reapply it. In general combat moves from foe to foe so unless you're fighting just one person per combat this isn't really feasible. Turn 2 TWF Ranger is slightly stronger than Turn 2 Duelist Ranger, but Turn 1 TWF Ranger is slightly weaker. In general I would say it's fine if slightly weak for Ranger up until level 11. For other martial classes level 11 is where they get some kind of direct damage buff and Ranger just doesn't at this level. Ranger has to wait until level 13 in order to get Guardian of Nature. Guardian of Nature gives you advantage on all strength rolls and a d6 of force damage. This solves the weakness Hunter's Mark has of having to be reapplied and you're swinging like a Barbarian to boot, with the downside being that you only get that single 4th level spell slot for a single combat per day for 2 levels. To summarize, You'll probably be okay up through level 10, dip hard for 2-4 levels and then you'll probably be okay again after that, assuming the campaign goes on that long.

[Khi'Khi]

Stats are not yet assigned or boosted

So if ranger isn't so hot for TWF, is there a better starting class like fighter I should choose if I want to go in that direction?

[GlenSmash!]

Stats are not yet assigned or boosted

So if ranger isn't so hot for TWF, is there a better starting class like fighter I should choose if I want to go in that direction?

I would argue that the Fighter is actually worse. Fighters feature like action surge and more Extra Attacks help a single weapon style out distance TWF pretty easy.

Rogue actually gets decent use out of it as they only have one attack per action and an extra chance to land a sneak attack when they miss on their first attack is a pretty big deal.

Rangers are in the middle compared to either of these.

As far as Feats, on a melee Ranger keeping Concentration is going to be harder than on a ranged Ranger. Resilient Constitution or War Caster might be helpful. But Mobile is a solid choice. Extra movement is great on a melee character.

Rangers get a great spell section. I found myself using most of my slots on Hunter's Mark and Spike Growth.

[Bobthewizard]

Your concept is great. Two weapon fighting on any class uses a bonus action so interferes with other bonus actions. This will become more pronounced if you multi class into rogue later, but it's still a good multi class.

For rangers the bonus action competition is primarily casting or moving hunter's mark. On the round you do that, you lose all of the bonus from TWF. If you instead took dueling you'd still get the +2 damage to every attack you made that round.

I think TWF is better for a ranger than other classes, though. After you have hunter's mark up, you'll be able to add it to your regular attack(s) and the offhand attack.

[Skylivedk]

Stats are not yet assigned or boosted

So if ranger isn't so hot for TWF, is there a better starting class like fighter I should choose if I want to go in that direction?

Unfortunately, twf is generally not strong in 5e. It's better on rogues (esp swashbucklers) and Bladesingers, but for strength builds it's usually strictly worse than PAM. Especially with one handed spears know being a thing... Dueling + the two extra ac and more reactions easily beat strength dual wield

[Khi'Khi]

Yeah the more I look the less I like twf mechanically

That said my group is pretty open to house rules and homebrew. Is there a way to tweak twf so that its more feasible? Maybe make the two strikes part of the same attack action and not a bonus action?

[strangebloke]

Yeah the more I look the less I like twf mechanically

That said my group is pretty open to house rules and homebrew. Is there a way to tweak twf so that its more feasible? Maybe make the two strikes part of the same attack action and not a bonus action?

add this line to the TWF style:

"additionally, if you get the extra attack feature, the one offhand attack allowed by two-weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action."

It's mathematically the most balanced solution, and the one I use at my table. Makes it good for rangers but not overpowered.

[Teaguethebean]

add this line to the TWF style:

"additionally, if you get the extra attack feature, the one offhand attack allowed by two-weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action."


Yup I'm stealing this.

[Bobthewizard]

add this line to the TWF style:

"additionally, if you get the extra attack feature, the one offhand attack allowed by two-weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action."

It's mathematically the most balanced solution, and the one I use at my table. Makes it good for rangers but not overpowered.

What would you do with PAM? Technically, with PAM, dual wielder feat, and spears or staves, you could make 2 regular attacks, an offhand attack and then a bonus action attack with the back end of one of the spears. Add in Gloomstalker and they're making 5 attacks in the 1st round.

At my tables, we require spears and quarterstaves to be used two-handed to benefit from PAM but by RAW it works with one hand.

[strangebloke]

What would you do with PAM? Technically, with PAM, dual wielder feat, and spears or staves, you could make 2 regular attacks, an offhand attack and then a bonus action attack with the back end of one of the spears. Add in Gloomstalker and they're making 5 attacks in the 1st round.

At my tables, we require spears and quarterstaves to be used two-handed to benefit from PAM but by RAW it works with one hand.

We do the same as you.

But TBH it isn't something you really have to watch for with homebrew

[stoutstien]

add this line to the TWF style:

"additionally, if you get the extra attack feature, the one offhand attack allowed by two-weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action."

It's mathematically the most balanced solution, and the one I use at my table. Makes it good for rangers but not overpowered.
How does this work for monks?

[strangebloke]

How does this work for monks?

Monks don't get the twf style so it has zero impact for them unless they multiclass.

If they want to multiclass to get a five attacks instead of four that's honestly fine by me. They'll be using light weapons (like nunchuks) so it won't even boost their total damage that much.

(1d6 + 4) * 5 = 37.5
(1d8 + 4) * 2 + (1d6 + 4) * 2 = 32

It isn't like monks are horribly overpowered anyway.

[stoutstien]

Monks don't get the twf style so it has zero impact for them unless they multiclass.

If they want to multiclass to get a five attacks instead of four that's honestly fine by me. They'll be using light weapons (like nunchuks) so it won't even boost their total damage that much.

(1d6 + 4) * 5 = 37.5
(1d8 + 4) * 2 + (1d6 + 4) * 2 = 32

It isn't like monks are horribly overpowered anyway.

Agreed. just was an odd cross over point to consider. Same with a rogue that dips for extra attack which seems to be pretty common.
Did you change the feat at all?

[strangebloke]

Agreed. just was an odd cross over point to consider. Same with a rogue that dips for extra attack which seems to be pretty common.
Did you change the feat at all?

Nah. It's still something you might take in some circumstances but isn't something that's generally a great idea, which is, IMO, what most feats should shoot for.

[stoutstien]

Nah. It's still something you might take in some circumstances but isn't something that's generally a great idea, which is, IMO, what most feats should shoot for.
Full on derail at this point.
Did you reduce the impact of the higher impact feats like Pam, SS, GWM, and XBM or add a level/stat requirements?
I'm an avid Homebrewer and always like to see how others approached similar problems.

[CNagy]

Monks don't get the twf style so it has zero impact for them unless they multiclass.

If they want to multiclass to get a five attacks instead of four that's honestly fine by me. They'll be using light weapons (like nunchuks) so it won't even boost their total damage that much.

(1d6 + 4) * 5 = 37.5
(1d8 + 4) * 2 + (1d6 + 4) * 2 = 32

It isn't like monks are horribly overpowered anyway.

Not a bad reason for a Ranger to pick up some Monk levels, though. Of course, at my table no one ever stays a Ranger anyway, lol.

[djreynolds]

Greetings all,

This is my first time playing a ranger in 5e, and the first time playing a half-caster (only previous magic experience was cleric) Hoping to get some build advice from those who are way better at numbers than me!

The build so far:

Half Orc
Starting Level 3
Gloom Stalker
Looking to spec melee dual-wield

Need advice on:

Feats (I'm thinking Mobile for a 1st)
Spells
Stats (starting: 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8)
Anything else I've forgotten

I'm willing to multiclass in the future but house rules say single class to start. Any advice is appreciated!

I played a strength based TWF ranger, it was great.

Half-orc is perfect. It is a fun build and dual wielder opens up almost any weapon combo.

Its not perfect, but no class combo is.

A tactic I used was to give up my first attack, trip and then hit with my sword (main) and then battle axe (bonus action). You have 3 attacks at 5th level. (so human prodigy for expertise in athletics is nice)

14 dex and scale mail or breastplate is as good as chainmail.

Can you accomplish this with the fighter? Of course. But the ranger is fun.

I also used thrown weapons and these work with hail of thorns, lightning arrow, and the conjures. So its not always hunter's mark.

The fun thing about dual wielder was, really any weapon you can use (aside from heavy) dual wielding.

If you get a feat for free, mobile is nice, but I would grab lucky. At lower levels, having advantage on saves when needed is stronger than resilient proficiency and this works for attacks versus enemy or attacks versus YOU.

Good luck

[Skylivedk]

A complete list of my table's changes to TWF:

Two Weapon Fighting
Two weapon fighting: As is (PHB p.195) with the following changes:
You can also use two weapon fighting when wielding any 1 handed weapon in your main hand and a club/dagger/light hammer/sickle in the other.
If you got the ‘Extra Attack’ feature you can make two attacks with your offhand weapon at level 8 (character level) as a bonus action.

The Two Weapon Fight Style
(PHB p. 72 for rangers and fighters) is now:
You gain a + 1 to attack rolls when you are wielding a separate weapon in each hand.
You can use two weapon fighting even when the one-handed weapons you are wielding aren't light.

Dual wielder
You can add your ability modifier to the damage of your offhand attack(s).
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
+1 to strength or Dex

You could probably make a rend ability (give a bonus for hitting with both weapons) or a disarm bonus or some such if you find making it a half feat is too weak.

[OracularPoet]

Paladin can work with two weapon fighting, if that is more important to you. Extra smite possibilities plus extra 1d8 on all attacks starting at 11. Vengeance for Hunter’s Mark (though that competes for your bonus action) or Ancients for nature theme, Outlander for background.

On edit: and if you are playing in Forgotten Realms, you could even worship Gwaeron Windstrom (the patron of rangers).

[Khi'Khi]

Thanks for the good advice, all!

Since I plan to go TWF, what do you say about Gloom Stalker vs Horizon Walker? HW has some fun movement stuff, though it's just more things to eat up my bonus action

[Makorel]

Thanks for the good advice, all!

Since I plan to go TWF, what do you say about Gloom Stalker vs Horizon Walker? HW has some fun movement stuff, though it's just more things to eat up my bonus action

Yeah the thing about Horizon Walker's BA ability is that you have to use your bonus action to activate it every turn. You don't have to spend a spell slot on it which is the benefit over hunter's mark. I've seen it used in play at low levels and was fairly impressed with it but you're not going to be using two weapon fighting while you're using this ability.

If I can make a suggestion: Hunter with Colossus Slayer. You get an extra d8 of damage every turn while your foe has less than maximum HP and you don't need to spend your bonus action. With TWF you get an extra chance to land that hit for the d8 and you get it every turn while Gloom Stalker only gets their extra attack and d8 for the first turn.

[Dork_Forge]

Personally I prefer Dex over Str builds but the Half Orc is a solid choice for a Str build. I would avoid Mobile to be honest, Gloom Stalker gives you a first round speed boost and being a Half Orc doesn't incentivise hit and run.

TWF works just fine, you'll typically only have a first turn bonus action to use anyway and with Hunter's Mark you capitalise on the extra attack more. There's a lot of comparison's between TWF and something like PAM/GWM etc. The simple fact is the TWF works just fine in practice and doesn't require you to sink a feat (in a game where ASIs/feats aren't exactly plentiful)compared to the other options. The Dual Wielder feat makes drawing your weapons mechanically easier on you (though some DMs don't care about things like that), raises your AC and opens up your weapon options. You can guarantee moving from d6s to d8s but it also means you don't have to be so picky when it comes to loot. Flame Tongue longsword amongst that dragon's hoard? Go nuts!

TWF might not be the creme de la creme when it comes to min max optimisation, but if you want to play a dual wielder and you don't have a regular use for your bonus (like a Rogue etc.) then it will serve you well and without requiring much if any investment.