How do you Homebrew a defense-focused fighter class to not suck?

[MatrixStone93]

I want to design this defense-focused class called Fortress Knight, he exists to be the "Tank", the super-heavily armoured designated guy your enemies turn into chunky salsa while your casters stand back and do their thing. But I have no idea how to make this character class not suck eggs because magic classes are almost always better than melee classes. And giving him some real big stat-buffing numbers and a huge shield plus a big sword or lance or axe big enough to make a Monster Hunter character jealous wouldn't do enough to offset that. I guess I could give him some magic-negating ability so enemies can't one-shot him. Maybe a class feature that limits how much damage you can take in one go, and another class feature that makes healing effects from allies heal you over time for a few turns after they're used.

Then it hit me. Royal Guard in DMC, everyone loves it. It gives you a reason to stop ripping and tearing and start parrying and releasing. I don't know how I'd write this, but this character class needs a way to absorb damage for a bit and then release it all over the enemy's face.

I'm open to more suggestions. So far, this is all I've got.

[pabelfly]

It needs a way to provoke aggro and force enemies to attack them. Tanks normally have the problem of opponents just being able to go around them, negating their high AC and/or HP

[ThatMoonGuy]

I'd say the Warder from PoW is a good place to start looking as well as the Guardian and Shield spheres from Spheres of Might. The Crusader from ToB also has some good aspects.

You could make the class also give some defensive buffs against magic to allies who are close to it, similar to the Marshall's aura in 4e. Maybe a bonus to save or Spell Resistance.

Actually, one way to go about it is to let him give significant defensive buffs to the allies so that while he stands, the party is harder to break through. You could have the aura start by giving just some extra AC and then grow up to give allies DR, bonuses to saves and regen. That way the enemies would want to kill him because as long as he stands, the rest of the group is that much harder to drop.

[Sereg]

Needs a way to redirect attacks, punish being ignored, punish attacking allies, quickly move self and allies around the field, place self between attacking monster and ally, wide reach for attacks of opportunity, multiple attacks of opportunity per turn, ability to rebuff an opponent's damage dealing capabilities, good saves, extra defence against mind effecting abilities, ability to use heavy armour while keeping mobility, D12 hd. That kind of thing.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Sentinel (Spheres of Might) or Warder (Path of War), done

[weckar]

Max out on reach and extra attacks of opportunity.
Get Stand Still
Get the Bulwark of Defense and Mage Slayer abilities.

Basically, make it so people can't just run past you, that mages can't break away with a 5 ft. step or cast defensively, and that you guard the largest area possible.

[Quertus]

It needs a way to provoke aggro and force enemies to attack them.

From another thread, I would love to play a tank who… had some variant / combination of… forces opponents near him to use a horrific fumble table, allows allies near him to get debilitating crits, makes AoO (utilizing said crits) whenever a nearby ally is attacked, and has super tanky defenses. Although the "my allies healing works super good on me" would be a nice perk.

But, the first time someone attacks my ally, and I cause them to fumble as I parry their sword into their spleen by way of their ear, or cause them to bite their own head off, I don't think anyone else will want to ignore me.

[rel]

lets see:

you need to be able to take damage.
If a CR appropriate enemy bruiser decides to just play your game and stand there full attacking you then you should be able to last a few rounds.

You need to be able to take esoteric effects.
Taking damage is nice but you should be just as hard to put down with a save or suck / die. If a CR appropriate enemy starts throwing SoS spells it should take a few rounds to get something to stick.

You need to be able to reach your enemies and force them to attack you.
If you can't effectively stand in front and take hits meant for squishier allies all that defensive power is useless.

Get those 3 things working at levels 5, 10 and 15.
By working I mean take a selection of CR appropriate monsters. Put your class, a monster and a commoner onto a battlefield.
Have the monster try and kill the commoner while your class tries to defend them. Keep adding features to your class until it can keep the commoner alive for at least a few rounds.

[BaronDoctor]

Well, I'd probably take a lot of elements from Crusader. The ability to make an area difficult terrain for your enemies and threaten all of it. The ability to punish enemies not going after you. The ability to delay damage and reroll saves against spells.

I'd throw in Diamond Mind for the save-boosting maneuvers and Iron Heart for Iron Heart Surge.

Tack on a variant of the Goad feat for free to mechanically "force them" your way and you've got the beginnings of what you're looking for.

[StevenC21]

I think the class should get Combat Reflexes or something similar for free, combined with abilities that synergize with creating AoOs.

[Manyasone]

Sentinel (Spheres of Might) or Warder (Path of War), done

so much this (got my ten characters and more, hah...)

[Efrate]

Warder or aegis from PoW in pf. Iron tortise, eternal guardian, and golden lion maneuvers. Aegis is a bit more modular if you want to customize it more, but warder usually does it better.

[Blackhawk748]

Others have mentioned the various options that already do this well in several ways, but noone has mentioned the valiant (but ultimately failed) attempt called the Knight.

It has ways to provoke Aggro, it is durable, it has some minor offensive buffs and it's capstone is hilarious in that as long as you have Challenges you can't die short of disintegration.

It was so close to working

[weckar]

Dip Knight for Bulwark of Defense, never look back. Amazing synergy with Mage Slayer.

[16bearswutIdo]

Dip Knight for Bulwark of Defense, never look back. Amazing synergy with Mage Slayer.

Surprised it took this long to get people to mention Knight. Knight has some extremely nice defensive builds with Bulwark, Combat Expertise, and Stand Still. They're even the only class with an actual taunt.

They don't stand up in power to like a gray elf transmutation wizard, but they're a solid class

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonborn for a breath weapon, Entangling Exhalation to keep opponents debuffed and unable to move to the back row characters. Preferably combined with Warforged and Adamantine Body.

Crusader 4/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 10. Always bind Naberius so you can spam holy power abilities every round. You’ll be tanky, able to deal decent damage, able to heal yourself and your party without sacrificing attacks, and you’ll be debuffing the enemies and doing damage every round with entangling breath attacks. Opponents won’t be able to ignore you, but that’s because you’re a credible threat, not because you’re using some kind of MMO taunt mechanics.

[Karl Aegis]

Give them a gun.

[Drackstin]

I know what i did for my Paladin was create a spell that worked like mass command person, but the only command was to attack me.

I also made a spell where any time he was hit he would get a free Aoo on the enemy as long as he was in range, the effect would end if he moved, first Aoo was free but every one after the first required a Cumulative +5 concentration check starting at 15.

i combined these with the paladin spell that adds extra damage to attacks when i take damage.

[Telonius]

For any homebrewed solution, a reliable way of drawing aggro is really the key to a defense-focused class. A massive pile of AC and defenses doesn't matter if the enemies aren't targeting you. So you have to either make the class enough of a threat that the enemies would be silly to target the other characters, or force them to attack you whether they want to or not.

If you're going to force the enemy to attack you, one way of achieving that is through Knight's Challenge, or a similar ability. The enemy literally has to attack you. Another way would be through something like Shield Ally, where you absorb some or all of the damage intended for another character. Another way of doing that would be to have an ability that could lend your defense to another character, letting them use your AC instead of their own. This would prevent the hit to begin with, instead of spreading out the damage for a hit that landed on an ally. As a lesser ability, maybe make Aid Another (for AC only) a swift action and not a standard action.

[AvatarVecna]

Tanking in general has a problem. Any character who wants to tank needs to both be an absolute bastion of defense (meeting the basic qualifications), but in a way that the enemies can't just ignore them.

One method of tanking is to simply be too dangerous to ignore, that if the enemy isn't forcing you on the defensive they are leaving you open to run through them like a hot knife through butter. In this way, Shock Trooper is an absolutely wonderful feat for a Tank: if you don't focus down the tank, if you try to not engage the tank in melee and go around to get at the mages, you're leaving yourself open to an attack with no attack penalty and full two-handed PA tradeoff (possibly with pounce, probably with other damage boosters). The problem is that mechanics that let you choose between "high defense" and "high offense" on-the-fly like that aren't really common, so most builds end up becoming dangerous by just being a dangerous guy with really good defenses...and then they don't need to tank because they can just murder their enemies.

Another method of tanking is, to use the common terminology, "drawing aggro": it acknowledges that attacking a defense-hyperfocused target is probably the worst way for an enemy to spend their time, but instead of investing in ways to punish the enemy's lack of attention, they focus the rest of their build on taking away the enemy's ability to choose their own targets. This has a similar problem to the above "the best defense is an overwhelming offense", in that if you're investing in taking away the enemy's choices...you could stop investing in defense so much to invest more in taking away choices, and now you're just a wannabe-enchanter (or an actual enchanter, mindraping the enemy into attacking a tree instead of the fighter, or just making them sit on their hands while your friends beat them up). This is also the tanking method that is the easiest to block - the other methods, the enemy's choice of target is forced in the mind of the player/DM, but here it's forced in the mind of the character, and that has in-game defenses for resisting.

Another method of tanking, which I think is the closest to true tanking, is to simultaneously be the most difficult person on the field to take down, and the least directly dangerous person, but make it integral to take you down first because you make life hard for the enemy somehow. This comes in two flavors, basically: you're a high-defense buffer (making your allies into gods as long as you're alive, so even if you have pathetic DPR the enemy basically has no choice but to kill you first), or a high-defense debuffer (you make it difficult for enemies near you to do much of anything useful, meaning they have to eliminate you first to have a chance at hurting the wizard). The former can be basically any build that focuses on buffing as long as some of that buffing goes towards buffing your own defenses, although typically this results in the build not looking like a typical "tank": a wizard/war weaver, a dragonfire inspiration bard, a marshal, all of these builds can be excellent buff-tanks. Far more iconic is the debuffer-tank, which is what's generally referred to in charop discussions as a "lockdown build". This is that guy who somehow gets like 50 ft reach with a spiked chain, NI AoOs/turn, a half-dozen ways of taking AoOs besides the normal methods, and a half-dozen things that slap extra effects besides damage on his AoOs. The result is a character where, if you're within 50 ft of him, you're moving through difficult terrain, provoking for all movement (including 5ft steps) and having to make saves vs stunning/dazing/losing half your speed for a round every time he hits you for piddly damage. This build is also typically some fighter/knight/ToB nonsense multiclass, but if you were trying to homebrew a tank, making a class that had things like that natively would be a good way to go about things.

[Elves]

It was so close to working

Interesting, I haven't heard people be so optimistic about it. What do you think is the minimum necessary change for it to work?

[AvatarVecna]

Interesting, I haven't heard people be so optimistic about it. What do you think is the minimum necessary change for it to work?

Knight has useful features, and even has an aggro ability, but it just doesn't get enough of anything to be really great. There's been threads before making serious arguments that Knight + two of Marshal/Paladin/Fighter tristalted together would make a super-solid tank class.

EDIT: But if you're looking more for "changes to base Knight that make it less garbage":

1) Change out the Knight bonus feat progression/limits for the Fighter's version, maybe not including the ability to take fighter-specific feats: open combat feats at every even level (and 1st) would help out greatly. If you feel that's too open, the list should still be opened up to defense-oriented combat feats at least. Hyperfocusing their feats on mounted combat when they don't get a horse that can survive combat past lvl 6 is cruel.

2) Give it a good Fort save. It has no excuse for not having one.

3) Challenges/day should be level+Cha mod, not half-level+Cha mod.

4) Give them a bit of reach.

5) DR, SR, and maybe ER related to their AC/armor.

[Piggy Knowles]

Take Knight, removed the Mounted Combat focus, add in the Crusader's maneuver and stance progression.

[ngilop]

Check out my Knight Re-tool. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472971-Knight-Re-tool-PLease-Critique)

[Blackhawk748]

Interesting, I haven't heard people be so optimistic about it. What do you think is the minimum necessary change for it to work?

Remove the Language and Int requirement from Challenges, body language should be a fine cop out if we need one.

Boost some of the numbers to make them more reasonable.

And that's about it. The Knight was close to working out alright as maybe a T4 tank, but the restrictions on its ability killed it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Needs a way to [...] punish being ignored [...]
This is the main thing. In video games, tanks work because players are given the ability to manipulate AI-controlled attackers' attacking priorities. In other words, you can hold aggro. Not so in D&D, which brings you to the second type of tanking: that in (team) pvp games. I can't speak for all pvp, but in MMOs I've played, you tank by being (a) a juicy target because you go down fast and provide easy points (bad), or (b) a juicy target because without killing you, it's a royal pain to get anyone else (to stay) down (good). Things like a crusader's Iron Guard's Glare are a good start, as are party-wide defense buffs.

Another thought: in pvp, and perhaps also in D&D, it's not about the aggro table, but about the perceived effort required to kill the party in a specific order, where the paths with the tank first should be perceived as least-effort/optimal. Now, you don't actually want your tank to be squishy, but note: perceived effort--you just want them to look squishy. Maybe you could do something with that, allowing enemies to mess you up pretty good (so they think they're making progress), but secretly having the ability to turn the tables. Doesn't work against well-informed opponents, though.

[Elves]

+1 to Libris. The basic conflict is that you want the tank to be the logical person for enemies to attack, but not actually.

The basic dynamic of trickery involved in this seems like it would be good fruit for an illusion/deception based tank, actually. That would be an interesting beguiler or rogue PrC.


Assuming conventional tank gameplay, my favorite solution is to have the tank inflict an active, pressing need for the enemy to attack them, not just a demerit if they don't. This is more dramatic because it's no longer just about slightly adjusting the enemy's cost-benefit ratio for who to attack, which is sort of boring: instead it flips the table so that the targeted enemy is now on the defensive. I think the most fun form of this is if the tank actually inflicts a harmful condition on the enemy that takes effect right now and can only be removed by attacking the tank. Of course, you then have to counter the incentive this creates for the tank to hit-and-run -- a distance requirement past which the effect breaks would be a place to start -- though that tag and run gameplay could be exactly what you want and might make a fun idea for a skirmishing tank.


I would avoid solutions that just make the barrier the tank presents be a big wall of HP. Or rather, that gameplay is only interesting if the attacker's gameplay revolves around timing damage bursts.

Another cute tank concept is the "yank-tank" who pulls people to them, maybe physically dragging them around in some cases. In general, active gameplay is best and role reversal is the best way to take control of a situation.

PS: In 3.5 the tank role tends to simply mean lockdown, so maybe that's a better word to use than tank?

[AvatarVecna]

If you look to video games that have tanking you can get ideas for how to go about this, too. World Of Warcraft has the classic "drawing aggro" tanking that can be used against NPC mobs - this is your Knight's challenge and your AoE fear abilities that screw around with enemy choices. Alternatively, you could look to something like Overwatch which has a few different kinds of tanks: Reinhardt, a slow tank who can deploy an enormous ally-protecting shield or lower it to ubercharge through enemies; Winston, who has a good balance of offense/defense/mobility, who can lock down and eliminate squishies in the back line unless he himself is locked down (referred to in the meta as a Dive Tank), while Roadhog just has good damage, good self-healing, and the ability to yank people out way out of position.

[liquidformat]

Here is my Marshal Knight (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JQ0ASlof3lsjwbeZEy0FM4mWyEeXelcji0x0Ju-oKSo/edit?usp=sharing) which does a pretty good job at being a tank

[Sian]

Interesting, I haven't heard people be so optimistic about it. What do you think is the minimum necessary change for it to work?

together with what others have said ... Give them native access to an ability similar to Devoted Defender(S&F)/Maquar Crusader(FR:SS)'s Harm's way (or DoTU's Dutiful Guardian feat) and retune Test of Mettle into being The core mechanic, available from an even earlier level, letting the DC scale somewhat similar as to how initiator levels are calculated (or if that's to complicated, either ½CharLevel or full Class Level). This would in and of itself probably make it strong enough to, with multiclassing make just about every flavour of tank that you could imagine.

For all that it just barely fails to manage to hold itself up, it's probably my favourite type of character to fiddle with

[Elves]

Give them native access to an ability similar to Devoted Defender(S&F)/Maquar Crusader(FR:SS)'s Harm's way (or DoTU's Dutiful Guardian feat)
I like this, it definitely feels nice for them to have a tanking mechanic both for direct engagement with an enemy and for protecting a specific person. Flavorful too.

The test of mettle aoe seems a little too cheesy (flavor- not balance-wise) to center the class on though. I'd keep st challenge as the main thing.


Check out my Knight Re-tool. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472971-Knight-Re-tool-PLease-Critique)
The shielded evasion ability on this is pretty cool btw.

[weckar]

Ultimately, they need a way to deal with mages.
The modern answer to this is save rerolls, but I am not sure that works in this classic environment.
More likely, they should be able to dismiss a magical effect on themselves whenever they use a challenge ability (or similar).

[Elves]

A mageslayer version of their challenge designed for fighting casters? Maybe gives their spells some kind of fail % vs you, to start with?

Re: rerolls and such, those are important but ultimately kind of a downer since they focus purely on negating someone else's ability. Better to have something that builds on or responds to it. Maybe there's a class ability you must declare before making a save against a hostile spell, and then if you fail the save you get some kind of benefit or contingent action? That's just an idea, the point is, something that builds on or transforms the enemy's action instead of just shutting it down.

[Kazuel]

I’m not sure if it’s already been said but pulling inspiration from 5e Ancestral Guardian barbarian might get you started with what you want.

[Zancloufer]

One thing I don't recall being mentioned (and I added to my own Homebrew "Tank" class) is the ability to actually intercept attacks. Giving the class the ability to jump in-front of allies at least once per round goes a long way to being a tank.

[Quertus]

+1 to Libris. The basic conflict is that you want the tank to be the logical person for enemies to attack, but not actually.

The basic dynamic of trickery involved in this seems like it would be good fruit for an illusion/deception based tank, actually. That would be an interesting beguiler or rogue PrC.

I like the idea of describing Armus moving to protect someone with better defenses as "deception based tanking" (Although there was much more to it than that).

I'm just not sure how to implement that at the "class feature" level.

[Elves]

"Gotcha" powers basically. Boring tanks give their enemy no good options and no openings. Fun tanks create new incentives. Tricky tanks would make opponents think it's in their best interest to attack them when it actually isn't, which is the deception I'm talking about.

Literal illusions and deceptions would work, but so would someone who seems to be the path of least resistance until gotcha effects turn the situation into one the attacker wasn't expecting. Maybe they seem weak but have a lot of contingencies, or maybe they seem very threatening when they're actually fangless with mainly defensive powers. Either way, to be a real tank, the key part is how they thrust themselves into the situation instead of being just a distraction on the side.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say a proper defensive/tank class would need several key elements:

1. Damage Mitigation. The ability to reduce, avoid, or heal the damage he takes, and to a lesser extent the damage his party takes. The most basic version of this is the Barbarian's d12 HD and DR, a hit he takes is a lower percentage of his total HP than the same hit on a lower-hp character. There's also high AC, energy resistances, DR, miss chance, SR, etc. A superb example of this is the Crusader, who can use healing maneuvers, use Stone Power for temporary hp, the Shield Block counter to protect an ally, and delays the damage he takes so it can be healed or mitigated with the temporary HP. Hellreaver is also good at this, with spammable swift action heals that can fix himself or an ally.

2. Keep the Attention of Enemies. Defensive abilities don't do any good if the opponents ignore you. The worst example of this is some kind of threat/taunt mechanic that MMOs have, as trying to add such mechanics to D&D completely ruins the immersion for many players. A good example of this is a spammable breath attack (such as from Dragonborn) with Entangling Exhalation, as it deals constant damage and debuffs opponents so it's difficult for them to move past you, plus you're using it every few rounds so you're presenting yourself as a constant threat. A chain tripper is another great example, especially with Knock-Down and Knock-Back and Dungeoncrasher. The Crusader stance Iron Guard's Glare that penalizes opponents for not attacking you is useful, but stretching the boundaries of immersion. Another way to accomplish this is with fear effects, if they're not attacking your party because they can't attack anyone then you've covered both 1 and 2, but it's gimmicky and too many opponents will be outright immune so it's unreliable. The best way to accomplish this is to deal damage every round, preferably combining it with inflicting a negative condition.

3. Counterplay. Being able to get in the way and block the dragon breath from hitting your party. Being able to disrupt an enemy spellcaster on a moment's notice. Doing things is fun, and it's especially fun when you doing something can stop the opponent from doing something that your party wouldn't have liked. A great example of this is the spell Wings of Cover from a dragonblood caster. Another is a Cleric 1/ Paladin 19 that traded Paladin Turn Undead for Divine Counterspell, and took Divine Defiance powered by Cleric turn uses to counterspell as an immediate action. Spells and powers like Celerity, Anticipatory Strike, White Raven Tactics, and to a lesser extent Fate of One, and the Destiny and Luck domain powers, are all good examples of this. Also a chain tripper getting AoOs that knock opponents prone and knock them away.


Any good homebrew class will need to be on-theme, which can be challenging when deciding how to combine all of the above. I'd say go with some kind of magitech alchemist theme who uses alchemical items and powers abilities with some kind of magical energy capacitor. Something like...

Good BAB, good Fort and Will, d10 or d12 HD, 4 or 6 skill points/level. Arcane spellcasting progression like Ranger or Paladin or Hexblade. Proficient in all simple weapons, light and one-handed melee martial weapons, all armor, all shields.

Magitech Capacitor (Su): You've learned to store magical energy to power certain abilities. Only one such ability can be active at any time, and each round you have one active you lose 1 energy from your capacitor. Once your capacitor has been drained, you cannot use any more such abilities until it's recharged. A spell cast into the capacitor, or a spell absorbed by the capacitor's Absorption Matrix, recharges 1.5x the spell's level in energy (rounded down). Its maximum capacity equal to three plus 1/2 your class level plus your Constitution modifier. It's fully recharged after ten minutes of uninterrupted restful meditation.
* Energize Self: At 1st level, you can power up yourself to increase your physical durability for one round at a time. You gain DR/- and resistance to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage equal to half of your Constitution bonus (minimum 1). At 3rd level and every odd-numbered class level, this increases by an additional +1. Activating this ability is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and expends 1 energy from your capacitor.
* Energize Weapon: At 2nd level, you can power up one melee or thrown weapon for one round at a time. This weapon deals an additional 1d4 damage of the weapon's base damage type when you attack with it. At 4th level and every even-numbered class level, this bonus damage increases by an additional 1d4. Activating this ability is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and expends 1 energy from your capacitor.
* Overload: Beginning at 3rd level, you can expend all the remaining energy in your capacitor as an immediate action to negate any one spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability you can perceive as it's being used, that originates within 100 ft. of your character. The ability targeted by this is still expended, but it's cancelled as though countered. This ability cannot be used if your capacitor is drained.
* Absorption Matrix: Beginning at 5th level, you can project an invisible field around your character's space and all adjacent squares as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and expends 1 energy from your capacitor. While this field is active, if any spell is targeted at a creature within the area of effect, or centered on any square within the area of effect, that spell is absorbed into your capacitor and is cancelled as though countered, and this effect immediately ends. Your capacitor regains energy equal to 1.5x the absorbed spell's level.
* Overcharge: Beginning at 6th level, you can choose to double the numeric effect of your Energize Self or Energize Weapon ability at the cost of spending 2 energy from your capacitor for that round of use, instead of 1 energy.
* Efficient Overload: Beginning at 9th level, if your capacitor's remaining energy is equal to or greater than three times your Constitution bonus when you use Overload, it retains an amount of energy equal to your Constitution bonus after that ability is used, instead of being completely drained.
* Expanded Matrix: At 10th level, you can spend 2 energy when activating Absorption Matrix to increase its area of effect to a sphere 15 feet out from each edge of your character's space.
* Fast Recharge: Beginning at 12th level, you can expend a spell slot as a free action on your turn to restore energy to your capacitor equal to twice the spell's level. This ability can only be used once per turn.
* Extended Matrix: At 15th level, you can extend the duration of your Absorption Matrix by expending additional energy when activating it. For every 1 additional energy you spend, but no more than your Constitution bonus, the matrix lasts 1 additional round. It still immediately ends upon absorbing one spell.
* Sacrificial Charge: At 18th level, you can use your own life force to recharge your capacitor. By taking 2 Constitution damage as a free action, you can add energy to your capacitor equal to one half of its maximum capacity (adjusted for the Constitution damage you just took). Any effect that would reduce or negate this constitution damage causes this ability to fail to have any benefit.
* Energize Both: At 20th level, you can activate Energize Self and Energize Weapon simultaneously with one swift action. The full cost to activate each effect must still be paid.

Alchemical Arsenal (Su): At 1st level, you learn to craft alchemical items. You can use the Craft: Alchemy skill if trained, and you gain a bonus to Craft: Alchemy checks equal to one-half your class level. You're able to scavenge enough materials to create some alchemical items without paying for them. Doing so takes 10 minutes. You can create a makeshift acid flask, alchemist's fire flask, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone with this ability, or any of the special alchemical items listed below once you've learned them. Such items are unstable and only your character can use them effectively, if anyone else tries to use one it fails to have any effect. You can have only one such item created by this ability at one time, if you create a second one the previous one no longer works as you can't help yourself from scavenging parts from it to make the next item. The range increment of thrown alchemical items you use is increased to 5x your Strength bonus, and you may use your strength modifier instead of your dexterity modifier on attack rolls with thrown alchemical items.
* Corrosive Tanglefoot Bag: At 2nd level, you learn to combine a tanglefoot bag and an acid flask to create a corrosive tanglefoot bag. When thrown, this item has the effects of both an acid flask and a tanglefoot bag. You only need to make one attack roll to hit your target with both effects.
* Combustible Tanglefoot Bag: At 3rd level, you learn to combine a tanglefoot bag and an alchemist's fire flask to create a combustible tanglefoot bag. When thrown, this item has the effects of both an alchemist's fire flask and a tanglefoot bag. You only need to make one attack roll to hit your target with both effects.
* Powerful Alchemy: Beginning at 4th level, when you activate an alchemical item that you created, you may add your Constitution bonus to the DC of its effect, if it has one.
* Intense Alchemy: At 5th level, when you activate an acid flask or alchemist's fire flask (or either of those combined with a special tanglefoot bag) you created, the initial hit deals 3d6 damage to the primary target(s) instead of 1d6, and the splash damage deals 1d6 damage to adjacent creatures instead of 1 damage. Additional damage for catching on fire is not increased.
* Bigger Tanglefoot Bags: From 6th level, when you activate a tanglefoot bag (or any variants you've learned) that you created, it affects all creatures within a 5-ft. radius of your target, including any additional effects for the variant tanglefoot bags. Compare your attack roll to the touch AC of each creature in the area to see if they're affected. Creatures adjacent to anyone hit who were not hit with the initial effect take splash damage as appropriate for the item being used.
* Quick Hand: Beginning at 7th level, if you have a free hand you can draw and throw an alchemical item as a move-action.
* Volatile Tanglefoot Bag: At 8th level, you've learned to combine a tanglefoot bag with both an acid flask and an alchemist's fire flask. When thrown, this item has the effects of all three of those items on each target hit by the attack roll.
* Cascading Tanglefoot Bag: At 11th level, when you throw a tanglefoot bag (or any variants you've learned) that you created, if you hit the initial target, you may choose to attempt to hit a second target within 10 ft. of the first one with the same effect. At 16th level, you can choose two secondary targets within 10 ft. of the initial target instead. The item has its full effect on each target hit, and you can choose the same target multiple times.

[Karl Aegis]

Abilities that don't extend into the range of a light warhorse's double move, an archer's second ranged increment or a spellcaster's medium range spells are going to suck. When spellcasters are so weak they need a character dedicated to protecting them and a dedicated character can't even deal with basic threats, that character sucks. So, no. Don't make your class have to be adjacent to your casters. Don't make your class deliberately pull enemies into your casters.

Give them a gun, a hoverjetpack and allow them to drop bunkers and turrets to block line of sight.

[Drackstin]

I feel like a Bloodstorm blade kind of remodel might work. I see a lot of ideas based around def and drawing attention. those are still good but i ways to stop enemies from progressing to your allies would be a better option.

say someone is running to your wizard or whatever, the ability to make an AoO at ranged to stop them from moving will help, the ability to bullrush at range will also help. if you get attacked by a AoO you get a free counter. Basically like a you gain field control without needing to move. this gives your group more time to react to a threat, and it also makes you a bit target, if someone is knocking you off your feet every time you try to move to attack someone else, they become the obstacle. the value of removing them is heightened.

The thought of a big guy just throwing great swords or tower shields at people and knocking them all over the place, just seems fun. it stops their turn, and if close enough gives an AoO to your ally.

On a side note, one game breaking skill i found when i played 4th was a fighter aura, if any ally would be attacked in any square adjacent to you, you could attack the attacker back for free. i would use this all the time, standing next to someone and making my allies run around them, getting AoO on purpose. giving me about 5 attacks a turn.

[Sutr]

So hexblade 4/binder 8(can be knight of the sacred seal)/palladin of tyranny x. That stands near people and lowers their saves and ac by 8? Hasn't been discussed, but it needs mobility help.

[rel]

Abilities that don't extend into the range of a light warhorse's double move, an archer's second ranged increment or a spellcaster's medium range spells are going to suck. When spellcasters are so weak they need a character dedicated to protecting them and a dedicated character can't even deal with basic threats, that character sucks. So, no. Don't make your class have to be adjacent to your casters. Don't make your class deliberately pull enemies into your casters.

Give them a gun, a hoverjetpack and allow them to drop bunkers and turrets to block line of sight.

This suggestion has potential. Make the bunker drop an immediate action.

[MatrixStone93]

And here I was thinking a Class Feature called Super-Heavy Armour Proficiency that allows you to commission and wear incredibly thick and heavy armour while also getting bonus stats for doing so would be enough.

What do you do for "I phase through objects" enemies?

[Bartmanhomer]

Created an invincible ability against all magic and psychic powers.

[AvatarVecna]

And here I was thinking a Class Feature called Super-Heavy Armour Proficiency that allows you to commission and wear incredibly thick and heavy armour while also getting bonus stats for doing so would be enough.

What do you do for "I phase through objects" enemies?

Shield Ward (PH2) and Parrying Shield (LoM) add your shield bonus to Touch AC (whether they stack...); basically anything else that upgrades your Touch AC (deflection bonuses being the most common source) are pretty solid. Ghost Touch armor/shield helps, as do deflection bonuses.

[Karl Aegis]

And here I was thinking a Class Feature called Super-Heavy Armour Proficiency that allows you to commission and wear incredibly thick and heavy armour while also getting bonus stats for doing so would be enough.

What do you do for "I phase through objects" enemies?

That might work if your casters were strong enough to back up your fighter-type character, but you want your fighter-type to back up your relatively weak casters. Armor is to protect yourself, not your allies. Just having higher numbers won't change what your character can fundamentally do.

[MatrixStone93]

What if the Fortress Knight had a limited form of Casting based on the Endurance stat? But the only spells he has are defensive ones your Wizard, Cleric, Druid or Paladin would waste a turn casting if you didn't have a guy specifically for handling your entire party's defense.

In addition to taunt abilities he could form walls, help allies negate instadeath (my table houserules all save or dies into save or temporarily suck), maybe even heal himself or friends. Might not need full casting, but full casting with Time Stop (the ultimate defensive ability) as a lv9 ability would be nice. Maybe some Earth spells for reshaping earth into walls and trenches, with lv9 giving out Castle Creation. When your enemies are in your castle, you get buffs and they get debuffs.

Could maybe also add a resource mechanic, he gains Fight Energy by blocking and parrying attacks then he can spend that on different spell-like abilities. Including "my next atk deals big damage", "this ally of my choice is invincible for 2 turns", "I fullheal", etc. You don't just want your enemies hitting you, you want to be rewarded for playing like a tank.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, the first problem is that like anything else a T1 does it better. You need a lot of mojo to try to compete with a dozen skeletal minions with some angels throwing heals and buffs and a for real wizard or cleric dropping walls and area control spells.

So, start with the knight. Crumple it up, use it to clean your rangers pets droppings and set it on fire. Now we are done with knight.

Look at the DSP tanks from pathfinder. Their TOB equivalent, path of war, has actual tank abilities. Ways to give yourself non AC defenses, like rerolling saves or enemy crits. Mirror images. Iron heart surge like powers to shake off enemy effects as an immediate. Movement powers like short range teleportation. Heals. Lockdown effects. Crusader is OK but PoW does everything ToB does but better and still doesn’t beat T1 casters. Aegis, as mentioned, is also solid. Their Dragon racial class tanks well, with 3 good saves, d12s, flight, blindsense, SR, scaling NA and more. Another weird but surprisingly good one is moonlight meditant, a soulknife archetype, which gets size increases, DR, temporary HP which recharge, free battlefield movement, shifting feats, flight, and a bite related aggro mechanic through feats.

[Vaern]

I've seen a couple of threads about creating a decent tank class recently and I'm kind of tempted to give it a shot myself. The real question is, should this be a prestige class or a base class?
Since an actual functional tank isn't really considered a necessary role in 3.5 I feel like it should be a prestige class - a little something extra you can add onto a base fighter or barbarian to fill a niche role or offer a different kind of play style experience.
On the other hand, though the amount of stuff a dedicated tank would have to have defenses against and the aggro management abilities they would need to have to actually function as a tank could easily be spread out across a full 20 level base class if you really wanted to go that far with it.
I think I'll try writing up one of each when I get home and have a bit of free time. I'll start the base class with free Goad and have it as a prereq for the prc version, give them an improved version after a couple of levels that works on ranged and caster opponents, and an ability like a defensive "rage" that lets them ignore pain (in the form of temporary hit points that fall off and refresh at the beginning of each round for the duration) in addition to more common defensive abilities.

[MatrixStone93]

What if to mitigate the MAD of a melee class, he was SAD on Constitution? It's his casting stat for a limited Sorceror style spell list full of tanky and protectory spells and wide area buffs, a class feature adds his Con bonus to STR and melee damage and damage reduction and health regen per turn. WIS makes him a better defensive caster (frees up stuff for your T1 casters to do), STR means more damage and Critical Block range.

Maybe that can be his role, the supportive guy who does what your T1s could probably do better so they can do what he can't do better. He provides buffs, a shield, health regen, resistances to designated damage type and alignment, and taking damage makes him stronger somehow.

The mental image of a massive dude in massive armour with a massive shield and massive weapon is a good one. Could build him around some gimmicky mode-changing weapon but a good Fortress Knight will never sacrifice defense for offense. He needs a way to do both at once. A class feature could let him have a Favoured Damage Type, so he's hurt less by fire or sonic or acid in addition to designated weapon type of blunt and sharp.

Maybe he could have a Royal Guard kind of mechanic. Roll to block an attack and gain meter and take quartered damage, roll bad to take full damage, Crit to Perfect Parry it and you add the numbers that attack would deal to your Guard Meter while taking no damage. Royal Release as a free action to punch any enemy in melee range with that Guard Meter charge.

Finally add a "no attack can deal more than 40% of your health in one hit" at low levels and "you can't lose more than 40% of your health in a round" at high levels. So blocking the BBEG's big attack won't turn you into chunky salsa. However his Guarding still charges the full attack damage into his meter. So he can block 60 hits in a turn, lose 40% health, then Royal Release to ruin one foes day. Or Royal Release Explosion to blast a sphere of foes surrounding you away. Oh and add a Limit Break thing for when you're below 30% health because of course you need one of those, everyone who's not T1 needs one.

Oh and add Mind Control Resistance and "I suck this Negative Effect away from my friend to deal with it myself" SLA and a "All debuffs and stuns and sucky effects in general are less effective on me" feature. There, now you want his face to tank everything from damage to DOTs to debuffs.

There, now he's not low tier trash any more. He's a contributor to the team's effectiveness through buffs and damage mitigation whether he can put his face between you and the dragon or not.

If we want to take this too far let's make him able to buff T1 casters in a meaningful way. Giving them their best tools sooner or a few free spell casts per day. Of any level. Without material components or downsides.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Rather than look to 3.5 for inspiration (infamously lacking in ways to make tanking viable), I'd look to 4e for powers to give. I never actually played a defender class, but for shrugging off status effects I remember the Juggernaut paragon path had the ability to end any effect on them instantly at the cost of taking 10 damage that couldn't be negated or reduced in any way. That would probably be too strong for 3.5, but it's a good starting point (the 3.5 equivalent would be Iron Heart Surge).

[Kitsuneymg]

Sentinel (Spheres of Might) or Warder (Path of War), done

If you mix the systems, a Zealot with guardian sphere for delays damage and beeserking for temp HP can steal others’ damage, delay it, then gain temp HP to basically make it free. In addition to the maneuvers that make them enough of a threat you can’t ignore them.

[MatrixStone93]

Ok, so the Royal Guard meter, an undecided Limit Mechanic of some kind, damage mitigation, mobility, taunts, spontaneous casting from a pool of buffing, battlefield control, save boosting, tanky and healy spells, and "I cancel any effect on me in return for an instant 7 dmg".

Maybe a "your foes take damage when hitting you in melee" effect, Enemy Spells get reflected back at foes at double strength on a Critical Block, you get better Attacks Of Opportunity and a way to negate "I AOO anyone who gets close enough, especially that tank putting his face between me and the caster", and you can give up your Attack in your turn to Defend, boosting Block and Critical Block chance.

[ericgrau]

D&D isn't built for this, and actually even fighters are designed to be damage dealers and to have defense to protect themselves more than to protect others. There is some favoritism towards targeting them due to them standing in front and attacks of opportunity. But by no means are they supposed to draw all the hits to themselves nor does this make a whole lot of sense.

I agree with the others that say you need to steal some kind of taunt mechanism from video games and so forth if you want this to happen. It's difficult to balance since 3.5e wasn't designed for this. I'd start with similar mechanisms from crusader and so on and go from there. So at least there's less for you to test. Otherwise an elaborate untested mechanic will spell disaster in real play, even if it looks cool on paper to everyone.

Now with low optimization groups and/or limited options from splatbooks you can make a fighter with a shield, good AC and so forth that does not suck. You simply balance it out with damage dealing as above. Fighters are far from immortal even to HP attacks, AC is super cheap, and it does benefit them tremendously. Options like shocktrooper kind of ruin everything except THF, and ruin AC. You would have to limit those options. And of course limit other classes too, to be fair. Then after you do that SAB isn't far behind THF in damage (nor are other options), while the defense even on a low AC budget is far higher. In spite of myth it scales 1 for 1 with monster attack bonus too,= with some basic knowledge of simple DMG items. Plus stopping secondary attacks is also nice. So, again for lower optimization limit groups and not high optimization rocket tag / NI loop campaigns, it's usually well worth it.

[Darg]

I like the idea of a Spell Deflection feat or class ability that if a spell requires a reflex save it negates it completely for the user and a cone behind the user (caster chooses which corner the "null" cone originates from) or ends a chain. Additionally, should the feat user recognize the spell being cast and the spell has a projectile that does not "activate as specified" (i.e. fireball) it can be redirected to maximum range while choosing new targets if the spell is a chain to a maximum of the remain number of targets not hit specified by the caster.

[Psyren]

do their thing. But I have no idea how to make this character class not suck eggs because magic classes are almost always better than melee classes.

You got some good suggestions from Path of War but part of the problem is a mindset issue. "Not being as good as a caster" does not have to mean that your class "sucks eggs." Your desired job is to be a martial class that can go toe-to-toe with big scary monsters - while ToB and PoW classes will be best at that, a decently-built Fighter or Barbarian can do that just fine (especially in Pathfinder), no homebrew or third-party needed.

[MatrixStone93]

Ok so Limits, Spell Reflect, Royal Guard, Taunt, Crusader stuff, but I don't need to outdo or go toe to toe with spellcasters, just monsters.

oh and spell resistance. Lots of it.

Should I keep the "Spontaneous instant costless casting exclusively from a pool of tanky, buffy, and limited anti magic field spells" feature or toss that in favor of more attack bonuses and danage reduction?

edit: wait, no, forget the limit breaker. Getting stronger by having low health is stupid. lets have him gain limit points when taking/reflecting/guarding damage then when at Max Limit you can cast "for 3 turns everyone on your side but you is invincible and you take reduced damage" as a free automatic action.