How good is Illusory Dragon?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

As a DM I've used Illusory Dragon against some players in a very effective way and the players had fun with it.

How effective is this as an 8th level spell though?

-7D6 isn't particularly great.

-It can last for a minute if you cast it and back off

-The Intelligence save AOE seems like a rare creature. it sure punishes a party of Int dumpers.

-The first time the party encountered this it was GREAT watching their wheels turn. The damage was serious but not an instant kill. They figured out it was an illusion and to go after the caster and even took some Dispel Magic shots at it.

-(edit) oh, and its that rare non Verbal spell only requiring Somatic components.

But how effective is it going to be for a player character?


**************************

8th-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
By gathering threads of shadow material from the Shadowfell, you create a Huge shadowy dragon in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The illusion lasts for the spell’s duration and occupies its space, as if it were a creature.
When the illusion appears, any of your enemies that can see it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of it for 1 minute. If a frightened creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn’t have line of sight to the illusion, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 60 feet. At any point during its movement, you can cause it to exhale a blast of energy in a 60-foot cone originating from its space. When you create the dragon, choose a damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, necrotic, or poison. Each creature in the cone must make an Intelligence saving throw, taking 7d6 damage of the chosen damage type on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The illusion is tangible because of the shadow stuff used to create it, but attacks miss it automatically, it succeeds on all saving throws, and it is immune to all damage and conditions. A creature that uses an action to examine the dragon can determine that it is an illusion by succeeding on an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through it and has advantage on saving throws against its breath.

[DracoKnight]

As a DM I've used Illusory Dragon against some players in a very effective way and the players had fun with it.

I've had fun with it as a player - used wish as a Shadow Sorcerer a couple of times to cast it.


How effective is this as an 8th level spell though?

I would say it's very effective. Decent damage, targets a generally weak save, allows for mobility, yeah, pretty solid.


-7D6 isn't particularly great.

Okay, but it's a repeatable 7d6 in a 60-ft cone. That's pretty solid. Don't think of 7d6, if you get the full duration it's 70d6 in a 60ft cone.


-It can last for a minute if you cast it and back off

Again, see my comment about 70d6.


-The Intelligence save AOE seems like a rare creature. it sure punishes a party of Int dumpers.

Not only does it punish a weak save, but it also requires them to use their action to determine it's fake.


-The first time the party encountered this it was GREAT watching their wheels turn. The damage was serious but not an instant kill. They figured out it was an illusion and to go after the caster and even took some Dispel Magic shots at it.

I haven't gotten to use it as a DM, but I can't wait!


-(edit) oh, and its that rare non Verbal spell only requiring Somatic components.

But how effective is it going to be for a player character?

Terribly effective, and I'll go into why down below.



**************************

8th-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
By gathering threads of shadow material from the Shadowfell, you create a Huge shadowy dragon in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The illusion lasts for the spell’s duration and occupies its space, as if it were a creature.
When the illusion appears, any of your enemies that can see it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of it for 1 minute. If a frightened creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn’t have line of sight to the illusion, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 60 feet. At any point during its movement, you can cause it to exhale a blast of energy in a 60-foot cone originating from its space. When you create the dragon, choose a damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, necrotic, or poison. Each creature in the cone must make an Intelligence saving throw, taking 7d6 damage of the chosen damage type on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The illusion is tangible because of the shadow stuff used to create it, but attacks miss it automatically, it succeeds on all saving throws, and it is immune to all damage and conditions. A creature that uses an action to examine the dragon can determine that it is an illusion by succeeding on an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through it and has advantage on saving throws against its breath.

Emphasis is mine.

You can ride it. You can ride your motherfluffing illusory dragon and strafe enemies with fire or lightning or whatever draconic damage type you want. It occupies space as if it were a creature, creatures count as cover, so if you're on its back between its wings, you have 3/4 to full cover from people below you. Which means you're going to be maintaining the spell for nearly the full duration.

You can be a dragon rider. Need I say more?

Lots of fun. 10/10 GREAT SPELL.

[Sigreid]

I've had fun with it as a player - used wish as a Shadow Sorcerer a couple of times to cast it.



I would say it's very effective. Decent damage, targets a generally weak save, allows for mobility, yeah, pretty solid.



Okay, but it's a repeatable 7d6 in a 60-ft cone. That's pretty solid. Don't think of 7d6, if you get the full duration it's 70d6 in a 60ft cone.



Again, see my comment about 70d6.



Not only does it punish a weak save, but it also requires them to use their action to determine it's fake.



I haven't gotten to use it as a DM, but I can't wait!



Terribly effective, and I'll go into why down below.




Emphasis is mine.

You can ride it. You can ride your motherfluffing illusory dragon and strafe enemies with fire or lightning or whatever draconic damage type you want. It occupies space as if it were a creature, creatures count as cover, so if you're on its back between its wings, you have 3/4 to full cover from people below you. Which means you're going to be maintaining the spell for nearly the full duration.

You can be a dragon rider. Need I say more?

Lots of fun. 10/10 GREAT SPELL.

You forgot to highlight that if you do discover it's an illusion all that means is you get advantage on the save vs. it's breath and can see through it. It can still jack you up.

[sithlordnergal]

I find Illusory Dragon falls into the same category as Slow, its an ok spell for PCs to use, but it shines when a DM uses it. While it is a very fine spell, the other 8th level spells kind of outshine it. By the time you can cast it, most of your foes won't really care about a 7d6 dex save, and they'll generally be immune to Fear. After that all it can do is move around to breathe again, and try to trick foes into attacking it, which can be very DM dependent. Compare that to other spells like Feeblemind, Mind Blank, Dominate Monster, Clone, ect., and you start to realize that, as a player, you get so many better options and only one level 8th spell slot to use.

[NoxMiasma]

Illusory Dragon is good for a number of reasons:

As said upthread, a creature passing the save just informs that particular creature that it is an illusion, and gives them advantage on saves against the breath weapon. The illusion can still absolutely wreck their ****.
Flying is good. Flying that can be used by multiple pcs - maybe the Eldritch Blast-focused Warlock, or the archery Rogue, as well as the squishy caster, making use of hit-and-run to stay out of range of most monsters
Your flying assault platform also breathes fire
Intelligence is an uncommon saving throw, with proficiency only showing up on arcane casters, Solars, Mind Flayers and the like. Also, a large portion of the manual has terrible-to-poor intelligence, and unlike Con, Int doesn't scale to CR
Most creatures posses a very rational wariness of dragons, because they are large, carnivorous, and have a breath weapon. An illusory dragon is an excellent distraction in any situation where a dragon could possibly show up, and all dragons can fly, some can dig, and some breathe underwater.
The sheer hilarity of what happens if someone who doesn't know a lot about spells is the only one to see through the illusion:

"Dragon flying from the west!"
"No, it's fine, that's clearly an illusion."
*Illusory dragon uses breath weapon*
"Oh merciful Bahamut! What the -"

See, fabulous comedy value, on a versatile spell.

[dragoeniex]

I find Illusory Dragon falls into the same category as Slow, its an ok spell for PCs to use, but it shines when a DM uses it. While it is a very fine spell, the other 8th level spells kind of outshine it. By the time you can cast it, most of your foes won't really care about a 7d6 dex save, and they'll generally be immune to Fear. After that all it can do is move around to breathe again, and try to trick foes into attacking it, which can be very DM dependent. Compare that to other spells like Feeblemind, Mind Blank, Dominate Monster, Clone, ect., and you start to realize that, as a player, you get so many better options and only one level 8th spell slot to use.

It's an intelligence save, not dex, and the customizable type is lovely. And I disagree- it's more correct to say many enemies won't care about a *single* 7d6.

That's almost a baseline fireball with flexible damage and super maneuverability on top of a bigger field of effect. As a bonus action. This spell isn't meant to be devastating with a single exhale; it's another way to turn action economy against the opposing side. There are still many minions who will take hard hits from this, and even bosses dislike getting pegged with bonus action blasts throughout a fight.

Let's compare with Crown of Stars, which I picked as a Magical Secrets and used from character levels 14 - 20. It's a similar concept: bonus action damage. Except it's non-concentration and does slightly more average damage at 4d12. The tradeoff? You can miss and deal nothing, and you can hit only a single target each turn.

Along with using my other spells and actions, this spell continually had the DM nervously asking "and how many more of those can you fire" as damage started compounding. It helped us keep pace with the ever-climbing insanity of our epic tier encounters.

I'll grant you, having to concentrate IS a price to pay for Illusory Dragon. But getting to sweep the damage shower over a bouquet of baddies? Yes, please. Having a huge, mobile target to strategically block areas or people while spraying said damage? Even better. If the DM allows riding the thing like an earlier post mentioned, recognize it was already worth it before but is bananas good now.

Also, the 8th level spells brought up are not innately better. Feeblemind hits the same save and is a single-target, all-or-nothing gambit. Late-game encounters are often going to feature multiple scary things on the board, and hoping you disable one is a leap of faith. The enemies most likely to fail the save are the ones who will be more dangerous in battle even with the mental effects- physical hitters. And if you're fighting a single scary thing? Most by now have legendary resistances. I took Feeblemind myself exclusively hoping to help strip one of the big bad's saves off, but that's not how most people imagine use.

Mind Blank is also good, but much more situational. You'll get more consistent help from destruction breath than titanium mind shields. There's a good case for taking both and going Dragon until spooky mind shenanigans present themselves.

Dominate Monster is a common save, all-or-nothing concentration effect that your opponent has advantage on once aggressions have started. It's best for subtler starts, while Illusory Dragon does better after battle horns have been sounded. Also, Dominate has that pesky charm feature so many beautiful toys are immune to.

Again- both can be good, but Illusory Dragon is easier to use and never flat-out blows the slot.

Finally, I don't know why Clone would have any weigh-in here. It's like comparing apples and faucet knobs. Sure, they take up the same amount of space in your cart, but you're not using them for the same things. Clone is good only if you can set it up and still have enough time skip left to become viable before the story's end. And if you're flirting with Wish, you may as well skip it entirely and replicate it as desired during the odd free day.

Illusory Dragon is a short-duration combat spell. It does its job very well, and then it's gone. Whether someone goes for the bonus action ultra boost or Maze or whatnot is going to come down to individual build and preference.

[Corran]

That's almost a baseline fireball with flexible damage and super maneuverability on top of a bigger field of effect. As a bonus action. This spell isn't meant to be devastating with a single exhale; it's another way to turn action economy against the opposing side. There are still many minions who will take hard hits from this, and even bosses dislike getting pegged with bonus action blasts throughout a fight.
There is a problem of logistical nature. And that is finding (enough) targets for the AoE round after round. To go around that, you either need to have your team constantly reposition (and you need a little help from initiative there), or you need to be fighting armies.

Since it can be ridden (never noticed that before), it's a great spell for scenarios like the following:
You need to attack an enemy base that has a courtyard. You approach close enough at an opportune moment (much of the enemy force is gathered in the courtyard; maybe they are ready to set out for an invasion, or whatever), you cast the spell and have the whole party ride the mount, and that's how you open the fight. Flying above them, frightening them and blasting the 100+ mooks with little to worry about. After most of them are dead, you get down, end the spell, and the party proceeds to the interior to finish up whatever was left of the mooks, plus deal with the whatever big threat is inside the enemy base (where you will need to count on other resources of course).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

There is a problem of logistical nature. And that is finding (enough) targets for the AoE round after round. To go around that, you either need to have your team constantly reposition (and you need a little help from initiative there), or you need to be fighting armies.

Since it can be ridden (never noticed that before), it's a great spell for scenarios like the following:
You need to attack an enemy base that has a courtyard. You approach close enough at an opportune moment (much of the enemy force is gathered in the courtyard; maybe they are ready to set out for an invasion, or whatever), you cast the spell and have the whole party ride the mount, and that's how you open the fight. Flying above them, frightening them and blasting the 100+ mooks with little to worry about. After most of them are dead, you get down, end the spell, and the party proceeds to the interior to finish up whatever was left of the mooks, plus deal with the whatever big threat is inside the enemy base (where you will need to count on other resources of course).

Oh my. The immune to damage dragon vs an upcast fireball on the defenders....

The dragon goes off round after round and doesn't burn down the place. Plus it wins on style points. Unfortunately its a darn level 8 and you can't get a smaller Level 3 version

[dragoeniex]

There is a problem of logistical nature. And that is finding (enough) targets for the AoE round after round. To go around that, you either need to have your team constantly reposition (and you need a little help from initiative there), or you need to be fighting armies.

Since it can be ridden (never noticed that before), it's a great spell for scenarios like the following:
You need to attack an enemy base that has a courtyard. You approach close enough at an opportune moment (much of the enemy force is gathered in the courtyard; maybe they are ready to set out for an invasion, or whatever), you cast the spell and have the whole party ride the mount, and that's how you open the fight. Flying above them, frightening them and blasting the 100+ mooks with little to worry about. After most of them are dead, you get down, end the spell, and the party proceeds to the interior to finish up whatever was left of the mooks, plus deal with the whatever big threat is inside the enemy base (where you will need to count on other resources of course).

With most 60 ft cone spells, I would agree, but you get to swing the dragon around 60 ft any which way you want before firing. Enemies 10 ft or taller can be hit without endangering your shorter companions, if we're going strictly verticle. And if the bunch is too mixed for a clean blast, you're typically going to be able to wing around somewhere and catch at least a couple enemies who aren't dead-center in the fight. It may not always be the full area in effect, but then, neither is Fireball. The maximum coverage is still greater, and it's actually a heck of a lot easier to position how you like compared to your standard caster trying to move around and blast cones starting from their own square.

That said, courtyard death slaughter is a wonderfully vicious option. Just far from the only one.


Edited addition: with aerial combat increasingly common among opponents "point up" is also often a great way to smack things half your party couldn't reach.

[Sigreid]

Bottom line is it's a really great spell, provided you're in the right situation to use it. Wizard is really all about having the right spell prepared for the situation. There aren't really any wizard spells that are great for all situations.

[MaxWilson]

You need to attack an enemy base that has a courtyard. You approach close enough at an opportune moment (much of the enemy force is gathered in the courtyard; maybe they are ready to set out for an invasion, or whatever), you cast the spell and have the whole party ride the mount, and that's how you open the fight. Flying above them, frightening them and blasting the 100+ mooks with little to worry about.

With a dragon that goes only 6mph (about the same speed as a slow elevator) and lasts only for one minute, you've got to get REALLY close for this courtyard assault thing to work. At that point you're practically in the same building already.

[Corran]

With most 60 ft cone spells, I would agree, but you get to swing the dragon around 60 ft any which way you want before firing. Enemies 10 ft or taller can be hit without endangering your shorter companions, if we're going strictly verticle.
Good point. The AoE is(?) a 30' radius circle then. Now we need the tankiest gnome we can build and leave it down on the ground as bait!:smallsmile:


And if the bunch is too mixed for a clean blast, you're typically going to be able to wing around somewhere and catch at least a couple enemies who aren't dead-center in the fight. It may not always be the full area in effect, but then, neither is Fireball. The maximum coverage is still greater, and it's actually a heck of a lot easier to position how you like compared to your standard caster trying to move around and blast cones starting from their own square.
I think there is a key difference here that is worth highlighting. If you can't get enough enemies inside a fireball and you don't think it's worth the resources or action to cast it, then you don't have to do it, even if you did cast a fireball during the previous round. But if you cast illusory dragon, then you are sort of committed to it. In other words, it wont be great to use such a high level slot if we can't get many well placed AoE's in the following rounds. And that's something that needs to be solved. The better the solution, the better the spell works for us. Personally, I think that an easy solution is to have the party mount the dragon. Heps with the AoE issue (we still have to worry about enemies dispersing*; tight spaces non withstanding cause they make flight difficult), and taking allies up to the air with us (while giving them cover) can be a big advantage on its own. To do that though (ie mount cast it prior to combat and have everyone mount it), we do need a little bit of preparation and knowledge of what's ahead. I think that's a problem with all continuous AoE's. They are hard to plan for and make good use of. Illusory dragon is great because it grants us some good mobility which also helps with targeting, but on the other hand it's an 8th level spell. In theory I would want to use my 8th level slot and win a fight thanks to its contribution, not just to exploit action economy for some extra AoE blasting.

* I now wonder if it would be worth having someone like a hexblade dodging and concentrating on far step down on the ground as a bait. Maybe too risky.


That said, courtyard death slaughter is a wonderfully vicious option. Just far from the only one.
On second thought, I think I undersell it too. Could be good even against significantly lower numbers if the enemies are dumb enough or unable to disperse fast enough. Or if we are really worried about the melee capabilities and have no good way to control them.


Oh my. The immune to damage dragon vs an upcast fireball on the defenders....

The dragon goes off round after round and doesn't burn down the place. Plus it wins on style points. Unfortunately its a darn level 8 and you can't get a smaller Level 3 version
Dragon's breath on your familiar is the closest thing I can think of for low level play. Excluding the riding part, they share the same benefits and drawbacks more or less (and to a lesser extent with all other continuous damage AoE's, like dawn or sickening radiance), if you take into account the difference in the level of play of course.


With a dragon that goes only 6mph (about the same speed as a slow elevator) and lasts only for one minute, you've got to get REALLY close for this courtyard assault thing to work. At that point you're practically in the same building already.
Hmmm, and its size is huge, so not much benefit to be gained by it being S-only. Not only do we need to be close, we also need to be protected enough to be able to use our first round to mount it. Damn, this thing is so slow it can hardly stay out of the range of a dispel magic!




I now wonder if by RAW enemies get to save against fear if the see the dragon on subsequent turns and not on the one we cast the spell.

[Sigreid]

If you have an army laying siege to your stronghold, this spell would be a really good siege breaker. Or at least could be.

[dragoeniex]

Good point. The AoE is(?) a 30' radius circle then. Now we need the tankiest gnome we can build and leave it down on the ground as bait!:smallsmile:

Heh. I can dig that. Or a party code word for "Everyone hit the dirt!" when the caster plans on initiating a combat encounter via dragon spawn.



I think there is a key difference here that is worth highlighting. If you can't get enough enemies inside a fireball and you don't think it's worth the resources or action to cast it, then you don't have to do it, even if you did cast a fireball during the previous round. But if you cast illusory dragon, then you are sort of committed to it. In other words, it wont be great to use such a high level slot if we can't get many well placed AoE's in the following rounds. And that's something that needs to be solved. The better the solution, the better the spell works for us. Personally, I think that an easy solution is to have the party mount the dragon...

The differences you're bringing up are valid. It's more a difference in how we're personally weighing the pros and cons here, which is fine. To me, it would be tedious and difficult to work out positioning and timing in such a way that everyone rides the dragon for most of a minute. Readied actions or movements to coordinate, which means delaying the first set of movement for the dragon or planning an ambush, etc. There are quite a few variables to go wrong.

The bread-and-butter I'm looking for in a spell like this is super bonus action economy- being able to tag anywhere from 1 to 5 or so baddies per turn. Heck, I wouldn't even consider a turn with just one opponent affected a waste. As previously stated, I've found the single-target Crown of Stars to be plenty punchy. And because I had to choose which of those spells I ultimately wanted, I was pretty aware when situations came up where Illusory Dragon would have been better. Crown was just the best overall fit for my build.

Even the 9x9 ft square block of "you can't move through this" is a pretty great use for off turns and parking something in front of vulnerable friends.

The great thing about this being a bonus action enhancer is that it's not meant to be your "main" contribution each turn. It definitely can be! But for me? I'm gleefully moving to Psychic Blades crit fish someone, or cast Blindness/Deafness on three dudes, or drop Synaptic Static on the boss and his minion, or Forcecage something, or heal an ally before pausing to thoughtfully add, "Oh. And also dragon breath. Two more intelligence saves, please!" Every time. Which makes me a very happy camper. :smallsmile:

Eighth level spells can sometimes win fights, but they shouldn't have to. Make-or-break ones typically have a higher chance of leaving you with nothing for the effort, and you'll almost always have some form of cleanup even then. In bigger, longer combats (like we typically ran), a spell that makes you more effective over a series of turns is invaluable.

This thing can turn tides. It doesn't need to be wiping enemies out so much as wearing them down and looking boss while doing it.

I'm probably underselling the value of the caster riding on it, too, but I was typically riding a griffon at this point in the game and was able to pretty freely position myself already. Though griffon+dragon would have been a sick sky combo.




On second thought, I think I undersell it too. Could be good even against significantly lower numbers if the enemies are dumb enough or unable to disperse fast enough. Or if we are really worried about the melee capabilities and have no good way to control them.

I still don't think you need enemies all clumped up for this, but heck, if a lot of small things are clumped up around the group tank or fighter, I'm still probably dropping this as a friendly "let's get these guys off your back" kinda deal.

[Corran]

The differences you're bringing up are valid. It's more a difference in how we're personally weighing the pros and cons here, which is fine. To me, it would be tedious and difficult to work out positioning and timing in such a way that everyone rides the dragon for most of a minute. Readied actions or movements to coordinate, which means delaying the first set of movement for the dragon or planning an ambush, etc. There are quite a few variables to go wrong.
Oh yeah, I am totally discussing it completely theoretically, because I am curious about how it would be best to use the spell. I have no real opinion if it's a good or a bad pick, cause I have no build in mind, but even more because I am not very familiar with the competition it has for that 8th level slot.


The bread-and-butter I'm looking for in a spell like this is super bonus action economy- being able to tag anywhere from 1 to 5 or so baddies per turn. Heck, I wouldn't even consider a turn with just one opponent affected a waste. As previously stated, I've found the single-target Crown of Stars to be plenty punchy. And because I had to choose which of those spells I ultimately wanted, I was pretty aware when situations came up where Illusory Dragon would have been better. Crown was just the best overall fit for my build.
I get it. Assuming you also have animate objects, between these 3 spells you have several ways to use your bonus actions with (and damage is something missing from the bard's list anyway). Crown of stars can be easily justified, cause it's both no-concentration and ranged (single target) damage. Between animate objects (assuming you have it) and illusory dragon there is some overlap though. I am assuming that damage resistance is common enough and this is why you wanted to upgrade from animate objects to illusory dragon?


Even the 9x9 ft square block of "you can't move through this" is a pretty great use for off turns and parking something in front of vulnerable friends.
I think it's 3x3, but point taken.


The great thing about this being a bonus action enhancer is that it's not meant to be your "main" contribution each turn. It definitely can be! But for me? I'm gleefully moving to Psychic Blades crit fish someone, or cast Blindness/Deafness on three dudes, or drop Synaptic Static on the boss and his minion, or Forcecage something, or heal an ally before pausing to thoughtfully add, "Oh. And also dragon breath. Two more intelligence saves, please!" Every time. Which makes me a very happy camper. :smallsmile:
I don't know bards all that well, and I certainly don't know your character better than you. But you know what bugs me a little? ID is a concentration AoE spell. I mean, it has other benefits (like the ones you mentioned), but a big part of it is the AoE, which means that it works well against many enemies. The fear effect adds to that too. Now, bards have a lot of good concentration AoE's, so they already have good ways to deal with multiple enemies. Crown of stars is single target ranged damage, which the bard does not have in abundance, so it's a good pick because it actually adds options (which can be useful against legendary creatures against which spellcasters typically struggle, at least until the higher levels). So I get crown of stars, and I give it lots of bonus points for not being a concentration spell. Now, the straightforward use of ID does not really add new options. It just improves our existing ones, which is something we should expect from an 8th level spell. The fact that it is a magical secret, makes me think that there must be some other spell that we would need more. A spell that is really missing from the character, or better, a spell that the party would really profit from. I really don't know if there is. I am just assuming that there must be. That said, I have never seen ID in action and it's not like I have given it much thought generally.


Eighth level spells can sometimes win fights, but they shouldn't have to. Make-or-break ones typically have a higher chance of leaving you with nothing for the effort, and you'll almost always have some form of cleanup even then. In bigger, longer combats (like we typically ran), a spell that makes you more effective over a series of turns is invaluable.

This thing can turn tides. It doesn't need to be wiping enemies out so much as wearing them down and looking boss while doing it.
I totally buy that. The more enemies, the more need for AoE, the more reason to upgrade your AoE options. I think this answers my previous rambling as to your justification.



I'm probably underselling the value of the caster riding on it, too, but I was typically riding a griffon at this point in the game and was able to pretty freely position myself already. Though griffon+dragon would have been a sick sky combo.
Yes, you are underselling it. I've been trying to get some flying speed on my characters only for some years now. So don't tell me it's not the best thing there is!
Edit: More seriously now, we didn't pay attention to something important. The dragon cannot be harmed. And it will keep doing damage even if the enemies realize it's an illusion. It's not a spell you use to give your party a flying speed, it's a spell you use so that you can have something else do the fighting for you while the party stays behind and watches. Now I understand why they gave it such a low speed. It will not be able to catch up to most enemies after they disperse, so not much point in using it in an open field. And due to size it will have trouble following through narrow spaces, so that rules out several indoor situations as well.

[MaxWilson]

The fact that it is a magical secret, makes me think that there must be some other spell that we would need more. A spell that is really missing from the character, or better, a spell that the party would really profit from. I really don't know if there is. I am just assuming that there must be.

I believe the spell you are looking for is Holy Aura, which is a fantastic party-support spell.


Divine light washes out from you and coalesces in a soft radiance in a 30-foot radius around you. Creatures of your choice in that radius when you cast this spell shed dim light in a 5-foot radius and have advantage on all Saving Throws, and other creatures have disadvantage on Attack rolls against them until the spell ends. In addition, when a fiend or an Undead hits an affected creature with a melee Attack, the aura flashes with brilliant light. The attacker must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be Blinded until the spell ends.

[dragoeniex]

I get it. Assuming you also have animate objects, between these 3 spells you have several ways to use your bonus actions with (and damage is something missing from the bard's list anyway). Crown of stars can be easily justified, cause it's both no-concentration and ranged (single target) damage. Between animate objects (assuming you have it) and illusory dragon there is some overlap though. I am assuming that damage resistance is common enough and this is why you wanted to upgrade from animate objects to illusory dragon?

I never picked up Animate Objects, actually! It's a wonderful spell, though I'm curious why you assume it would be an auto pick. I heavily considered it, but my love of debuffs and screwing with enemies compelled me to take Synaptic Static instead. And Mass Cure Wounds, Greater Restoration, and Dream (medieval Skype calls for cross-country war planning with allied generals!) over time.

I'll take Animate Objects on a caster someday, as it looks like a blast, but there's plenty of lv 5 competition. And as terrifying as the blender radius can be against melees, AoEs positively wreck a swarm of tiny objects. Something like Crown of Stars or Illusory Dragon really doesn't care how many AoEs you drop on it.

My bonus action was also getting consistently good use all game, and Crown was just good enough for me to take it regardless of that fact. Plus, I loved the apocalyptic mental image of a shadow-powered bard flying on a griffon with a circlet of stars around his head.



I think it's 3x3, but point taken.

It'd be 3x3 squares or 15x15 cubic ft. Either way, 9 was wrong, and I think my brain just went "three things by three things is nine" and derped.



I don't know bards all that well....

Illusory Dragon (lv 8) and Crown of Stars (lv 7) are both Magical Secrets choices. I picked between the two since they were roughly the same slot level and had some overlap in bonus action function. For me, Illusory Dragon is adding a fresh combination of things to the mix. Intimidation and awe tactics- which, as someone with +stupid to deception, is always fun- physical blocking, airplane mode, damage sprinklers, etc. You can do a lot of fun maneuvers with it, and I prefer getting sustained use out of my higher slots than short flashes. (Though I think it deserves restating: I never took Illusory Dragon on this character. I've just run full casters over enough time and levels and had to agonize over so many Magical Secrets that I did a lot of scrutinizing over tempting choices.)

Speaking of which, I went Crown of Stars in part because I knew I was picking up True Polymorph. And being able to shoot meteors from your forehead while turning yourself or a friend into something large and tanky (like a dragon) is pretty fun. Other strategies could build more into Illusory Dragon as the high level concentration constant between punchy one-off moves.




Yes, you are underselling it. I've been trying to get some flying speed on my characters only for some years now. So don't tell me it's not the best thing there is!

Haha, then you're going to be a bit cross if I say I tossed my Fly-casting bandore from the instruments of the bards once we got late-game. Between those, a flying broom, and a flying teammate, half our team was usually off the ground. I think availability depends on setting and tier pretty heavily, though.

Have you considered running an Aasimar protector for a 1-minute stint of battle flight per day? If you're not into the caster or item-based options, that is.

[Chronos]

Not that riding an illusory dragon isn't awesome enough on its own already, but it also completely solves the area-of-effect problem. When the dragon repositions itself to get the maximum number of enemies in the blast, it's also, automatically, at the same time repositioning the entire party to put them out of the blast. That's something that Fireball or Cone of Cold can't do.

[Corran]

I believe the spell you are looking for is Holy Aura, which is a fantastic party-support spell.
Yes, this is a really great spell. Had a look at the wizard's and the druid's list but I didn't think to check the cleric. I knew this spell was good (even if I had forgotten it existed), but upon reading it again, damn...


I never picked up Animate Objects, actually! It's a wonderful spell, though I'm curious why you assume it would be an auto pick.
All the talk on the internet about it for once. Plus that I have played sorcerers more than other casters, and for them it's kind of an obvious pick due to the lack of interesting options that other casters get. And a little bit because of your talk about optimizing action economy.


I heavily considered it, but my love of debuffs and screwing with enemies compelled me to take Synaptic Static instead. And Mass Cure Wounds, Greater Restoration, and Dream (medieval Skype calls for cross-country war planning with allied generals!) over time.
Going a little off topic, I love dream. It's my second or third favorite spell in the game. I like its usefulness (communication), but what I really love is the rp potential there. Depending on the nature of the ''call'' you can prepare the right scenery and appearance, or change it midway as appropriate. Plus, a lot of other spells that I really like are of this level (scrying, modify memory, contact other plane), and that's before even getting into combat spells. Level 9 presents some very hard choices for me, for wizards and warlocks (bards fall into the same category as far as I can tell).


I'll take Animate Objects on a caster someday, as it looks like a blast, but there's plenty of lv 5 competition. And as terrifying as the blender radius can be against melees, AoEs positively wreck a swarm of tiny objects. Something like Crown of Stars or Illusory Dragon really doesn't care how many AoEs you drop on it.
It's the go-to damage spell for most casters. Yes, it is more vulnerable than illusory dragon (ID is more vulnerable to dispel magic, though I suppose that AoE's remain more common than dispel at higher levels), though it's easier to direct its damage. ID will need to target roughly 2.5 enemies per round to match the damage, or roughly 1.5 enemies if they have resistance to the damage from AO. Illusory dragon is the better spell, but I would prefer to not make a direct comparison. Cause while the value from upgrading from AO to ID can easily be seen, the value of sticking with AO is that I will now have room for something else for that 8th level slot (eg holy aura as Max mentioned above; seeing both greater restoration and mass cure wounds make me think that you probably don't have a cleric in the party, in which case holy aura would be a really good pick; although I will admit, that is not nearly as cool as ID, and it's completely different discussing what would be best for another character than making the choice for your own). That's kind of why I try to think of the best way one could use illusory dragon. Cause I would not really want to pick just as an improvement to animate objects, but instead I would like to pick it if there is a uniquely powerful and not too situational way to use it. Currently I am thinking that the really big selling point of ID is that the dragon is immune to almost anything, though its low speed and big size make it difficult to profit from having it do the fighting while the party stays away from the fight (though combining it with plant growth might have some potential). Best I can think of is using it for some sort of sabotage (probably combined with etherealness), though this is too situational for my taste on a pc.


My bonus action was also getting consistently good use all game, and Crown was just good enough for me to take it regardless of that fact. Plus, I loved the apocalyptic mental image of a shadow-powered bard flying on a griffon with a circlet of stars around his head.
I think I recall. CE feat, to use with Tenser's. I remember because that old post of yours had given me a lot of pause about whether I would want this feat on a whispers bard (cause on one hand they kind of need a weapon attack for psychic blade, but on the other hand they don't get extra attack to make the feat investment really stand out).



It'd be 3x3 squares or 15x15 cubic ft. Either way, 9 was wrong, and I think my brain just went "three things by three things is nine" and derped.
I messed up the dimensions of the AoE of the vertical breath. I will be a 40 feet radius (rounded round), although we would need to be closer than the 60 feet I had previously assumed (we'd need to be only 40-45 feet away now, assuming we want to form an AoE of a circle at the ground, so 90 degree blasting).



Haha, then you're going to be a bit cross if I say I tossed my Fly-casting bandore from the instruments of the bards once we got late-game. Between those, a flying broom, and a flying teammate, half our team was usually off the ground. I think availability depends on setting and tier pretty heavily, though.

Have you considered running an Aasimar protector for a 1-minute stint of battle flight per day? If you're not into the caster or item-based options, that is.
Tossed it? Where?!!! :)

I am torn about the protector aasimar. On one hand it's the only aasimar variant that I like, and I like aasimar as a race. On the other hand, the kind of incompatible stat bumps and the fact that the transformation takes an action make me think twice before deciding to play one. Plus, I would most likely play an aasimar if I went with a devotion paladin or with a divine sorcerer, and both of them get flight in the long term. Who knows, maybe if I decide a cleric or a celestial warlock in the future. Or if I come up with a concept that really screams aasimar, and manage to stick with it till I need a new character. Thinking about it more, I think it's not really the flying speed I most care about, it's the cool esthetic of having wings (okay, functional wings; flying speed is important too, but bottom line is that what I really like is the whole package). But not any wings. Definitely not lame bird wings. Ok, angel wings would be cool. Bat wings wouldn't be bad either. But dragon wings... that's something!