Guidance of the Avatar + Diplomacy

[Armyguyclaude]

Hi everyone,

Playing an artificer in a campaign that's been running for quite some time. My DM and I have worked it out that I will eventually become a Diplomancer smooth talking my way into taking over the world. But I'm trying to figure out ways I can do it without investing a lot into. I'm already a level 6 Artificer about to become level 7. I've got the majority of my next several levels planned out for how I'm going to move my character forward, but am running into a technical snag. I was going to use Persistent Spell MetaMagic Feat to give me a 24 hour skill bonus with Guidance of the Avatar, but I don't think it'll work the way I'm hoping. I'm hoping that once I make the skill check that effect will last 24 hours, but I believe with the way it's worded the ability to gain a bonus will be there for 24 hours. Thus making it difficult to use Guidance of the Avatar to gain a bonus while Diplomancing a large group of individuals for long periods of time. Does anyone have an idea on how I could get the Effect of Guidance of the Avatar to last long enough to be used during let's say a 4 hour diplomacy talk? Thanks for any help. Been wracking my brain for awhile trying to figure it out.

[Jack_Simth]

Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) has a duration of "1 minute or until discharged"
Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) includes the line "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged." (emphasis added)

So... that specific trick does not function, no. Divine Insight (Spell Compendium) is a bit better - you cast it in the morning, and use it basically whenever (it's hours/level) - but it's still a discharge spell (also a lower bonus).

So... really, what you want is a command-word or use-activated at-will item. Or at least, an easy way to trigger the spell effect on yourself over & over. There's ways to pull it off... what's your cheese tolerance?

[Bronk]

I think you'd be better off just making a bunch of magic diplomacy skill items, each with a different bonus type so they stack. That's perfect for an artificer whose DM is already on board with diplomancer shenanigans.

[AvatarVecna]

An item of Use-Activated "Divine Insight" costs [CL x 4000] gp, and gives you a +[CL+5] insight bonus to a single check within the next [CL] hours. A CL 10 item would cost just 40k on the market (less if you restrict it by race/alignment/skill), and that'd be a +15 bonus on basically any check you make as part of narrative time. In a low-epic mid-op game I built an item with Quickened "Divine Insight" CL 10, Quickened "Guidance Of The Avatar", and "Moment Of Prescience" CL 20 (all use-activated) so I could have up to three charges available at any given time. I also had built-in Sadism and Masochism to turn damage dealt/taken into huge short-term bonuses, but that's less useful unless you think you're able to somehow work "summoning two hundred chickens and then fireballing them" into your negotiation strategy.

[Feantar]

(...) unless you think you're able to somehow work "summoning two hundred chickens and then fireballing them" into your negotiation strategy.
If you happen to find a way to do that, please tell us because it's bound to be hilarious.

As to your question, you can get pretty high bonuses with artificers using multiple small competence bonus (usually up to +4) items and a couple of schemata of Item Alteration infusion, to shift the bonuses around so they stack. While these don't last a day, at a minimum they last 70 minutes (minimum CL is 7) so you can use them before an important interaction. While it might be seen as cheese, this is -exactly- what the infusion does; the example even mentions AC which is usually more useful than skill bonuses.

If you want a spell that gives a long term bonus to a skill when persisted, there's Loresong from Dragon Magazine. 4 Competence +1/2 levels. Yeah, its much less than guidance, but it also allows you to use a skill untrained if you feel like it.

[Bronk]

An item of Use-Activated "Divine Insight" costs [CL x 4000] gp, and gives you a +[CL+5] insight bonus to a single check within the next [CL] hours. A CL 10 item would cost just 40k on the market (less if you restrict it by race/alignment/skill), and that'd be a +15 bonus on basically any check you make as part of narrative time. In a low-epic mid-op game I built an item with Quickened "Divine Insight" CL 10, Quickened "Guidance Of The Avatar", and "Moment Of Prescience" CL 20 (all use-activated) so I could have up to three charges available at any given time. I also had built-in Sadism and Masochism to turn damage dealt/taken into huge short-term bonuses, but that's less useful unless you think you're able to somehow work "summoning two hundred chickens and then fireballing them" into your negotiation strategy.

The 'Improvisation' spell is pretty good too... It's a level one personal bard spell, and it isn't exactly discharged, instead it gives you access to a pool of bonus points that can be diminished, so it should be able to be persisted if you were still interested in that.

[Kalkra]

The types of bonuses I can think of offhand are:

Enhancement
Competence
Circumstance
Sacred
Profane
Insight
Luck
Perfection
Racial
Alchemical
Morale

That's eleven types, although your DM might be a bit iffy about items giving racial bonuses. If he's okay with that, go for dodge bonuses (they stack!). On a more serious note, the famous AaEG sidebar about feats in items also mentions that you can make a bonus typeless for "double or even triple" the price.

If you can afford it, and if your DM allows it, there are plenty of helpful feats you could slap onto items.

Also, don't forget to persist Eagle's Splendor.

Regarding Sado-Masochism, I once had an idea for an item that simultaneously cast cure and inflict spells on the wearer, although I think I was also using Delay Death.

[AvatarVecna]

If you happen to find a way to do that, please tell us because it's bound to be hilarious.

"Tell me, Duke Westleton, why should I stop my men from burning this miserable village to the ground?"

[unveils an enclosure full of 1000 chickens]

[stares down the invader as he fireballs his own chickens]

[STARES]

[nat 1, +1000, -20 for rushed diplomacy, total 981]

"...you know what, I think I'm just gonna leave you and yours alone, you have a nice day." [backs away slowly]

[Armyguyclaude]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

Between some research and your help I now know about:
Divine Insight
Recitation
Improvisation
Moment of Prescience

I am currently working it out on how to do a 24 hour Guidance of the Avatar though through item creation and Continuous Effect. Still have the question on whether or not the 24 hours applies before or after the skill check. But here's to hoping. I do know I'll be using Bind Vestige feat to gain access to Naberius. So I'm excited about that. But now that I know I can't use Persistent Spell I might be able to do what I want sooner than later, but at the cost of more money lol. Trying to get my revenue up is a slow process. So far I just created my first Magic Item shop.

I am confused about this Sado-Masochism you guys keep talking about. I can't find any reference to it on google. Is it a spell, feat, class feature?

[Silvercrys]

Sadism and Masochism are spells from the Book of Vile Darkness, pretty sure.

Guidance of the Avatar works the wrong way, unfortunately. The duration is how long you can wait between casting the spell and using the effect.

[Biggus]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

Between some research and your help I now know about:
Divine Insight
Recitation
Improvisation
Moment of Prescience


Recitation doesn't give a bonus to skills, unless there's a newer version than the one in the Spell Compendium?

Divine Insight and Moment of Prescience both give Insight bonuses so don't stack with each other.

Those are all the big bonuses as far as I know, but there are some smaller ones you can stack with them. Heroism gives a morale bonus and with a high caster level and Extend Spell can last long enough for complex negotiations. Skill feats give untyped bonuses so items of Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Negotiator will stack with each other and everything else.

Also, any way to boost your Charisma increases your Diplomacy, there's a list of ways to do that here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0). A high-level Bard can make a big difference with Inner Beauty (if you're good-aligned) and Snowsong (although you might have some difficulty explaining the magical snow).

Finally, a Marshal can provide a circumstance bonus to your skill checks which stacks with all of the above.

[AvatarVecna]

Divine Insight and Moment of Prescience both give Insight bonuses so don't stack with each other.

You can't benefit from both on the same check, but you're only allowed to have one Divine Insight at a time, and only one Moment Of Prescience at a time...but having a charge of each ready means you can get bonuses to two checks without having to take actions between, if that kind of very small advantage in the action economy is necessary.

[Jack_Simth]

Depending on your cheese tolerance, use the magic device trap rules to make a "trap" of Guidance of the Avatar ona spell component pouch. Anyone getting anything out of it is subject to the spell. Market would be just 6k.

[Armyguyclaude]

Recitation doesn't give a bonus to skills, unless there's a newer version than the one in the Spell Compendium?

Divine Insight and Moment of Prescience both give Insight bonuses so don't stack with each other.

From their website. Only one I know about. Unless it was updated from that. Only recently learned about it as well.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20021103a



Skill feats give untyped bonuses so items of Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Negotiator will stack with each other and everything else.

I found out about Cosmopolitan earlier from a thread on this site that helps you learn non class skills as class skills. There's a lot of ways to do things in this game. I love it.



Also, any way to boost your Charisma increases your Diplomacy, there's a list of ways to do that here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0).

Thanks! This thread is amazing!


Depending on your cheese tolerance, use the magic device trap rules to make a "trap" of Guidance of the Avatar ona spell component pouch. Anyone getting anything out of it is subject to the spell. Market would be just 6k.

Would you have to re-trap it with a spell each time a pouch was opened? Or would it automatically re-trap itself?

As for the whole stacking bonuses thing, I know I was just putting down the different spells as things learned.

[Jack_Simth]

From their website. Only one I know about. Unless it was updated from that. Only recently learned about it as well.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20021103a




I found out about Cosmopolitan earlier from a thread on this site that helps you learn non class skills as class skills. There's a lot of ways to do things in this game. I love it.



Thanks! This thread is amazing!



Would you have to re-trap it with a spell each time a pouch was opened? Or would it automatically re-trap itself?

As for the whole stacking bonuses thing, I know I was just putting down the different spells as things learned.
At the 6k market figure, it would be self-resetting. Details can be found:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost

[Biggus]

From their website. Only one I know about. Unless it was updated from that. Only recently learned about it as well.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20021103a

Weird. Recitation has appeared in four 3.0/3.5 books, one of which came out before this appeared online, and none of them include the skill bonus.

[DarkSoul]

Is third party content available? There's a spell in the Book of Erotic Fantasy that gives +1d4 enhancement to Charisma, per 2 caster levels I think, to a maximum of 5d4. Average +12 charisma, maximized +20.