What playable races are 100% human-descended? Which actually count as human?

[Katie Boundary]

What playable races are 100% human-descended and have, or should have, the human subtype and/or humanblood trait? This is what I have so far.


Aventi - basically merfolk descended from humans, they have the human subtype and the humanblood trait

Azurin - humans exposed to a bit too much incarnum at birth. Human subtype

Buoman - humans whose hands and feet have gotten really long from spending too much time on the astral plane. Humanoid type, extraplanar subtype, no humanblood trait.

Deep Imaskari - human wizards who live underground. No type or subtype is given, no humanblood trait.

Elan - normal humans at birth who get... modified... as adults, in order to get psionic abilities. Aberration type, psionic subtype, no humanblood trait.

Empty Vessel - like Elans, except that their psionic abilities are the result of selective breeding. No type or subtype are specifically given for Empty Vessels, but the Human subtype is given for the Inspired, which are just empty vessels possessed by extraplanar demon-ghosts.

Frost folk - humans who sold their souls to the gods of winter. Monstrous humanoids, no human subtype or humanblood trait.

Illumian - Like elans or empty vessels, except magic instead of psionic. Human subtype.

Ithin'carthians - Three human tribes (Tarmaks, Damjatts, Keena) from the Dragonlance setting with unique racial traits

Karsite - humans descended from one really horny wizard who died long ago. Human subtype

Mongrelfolk - The description says they're a bunch of humanoid races mixed together in roughly equal amounts, but RoD gives them the Human subtype.

Neanderthal - snow humans. They have the humanblood trait and the human subtype.

Sea Kin - basically the same thing as Aventi. Human subtype.

Sharakim - Orcs with human subtype, apparently?

Silverbrow humans - "identical to the humans described in the player's handbook except as follows"

Skulk - Human subtype

Underfolk - humans who got lost while spelunking. Human subtype.

Vasharan - "Vasharans are humans, but they are to other humans as drow are to elves"... but no type or subtype are given, nor the humanblood trait.


EDIT: No UA, no magazines, no Web-only sources, no third-party.

[Luccan]

What playable races are 100% human-descended and have, or should have, the human subtype and/or humanblood trait? This is what I have so far.


Aventi - basically merfolk descended from humans, they have the human subtype and the humanblood trait

Buoman - humans whose hands and feet have gotten really long from spending too much time on the astral plane. Humanoid type, extraplanar subtype, no humanblood trait.

Elan - normal humans at birth who get... modified... as adults, in order to get psionic abilities. Aberration type, psionic subtype, no humanblood trait.

Empty Vessel - like Elans, except that their psionic abilities are the result of selective breeding. No type or subtype are specifically given for Empty Vessels, but the Human subtype is given for the Inspired, which are just empty vessels possessed by extraplanar demon-ghosts.

Neanderthal - snow humans. They have the humanblood trait and the human subtype.

Silverbrow humans - "identical to the humans described in the player's handbook except as follows"

Vasharan - "Vasharans are humans, but they are to other humans as drow are to elves"... but no type or subtype are given, nor the humanblood trait.

I think all the races described in Races of Destiny are given the subtype, except Doppleganger and weirdly half-orc and half-elf.

Edit: IMO, half-orcs and half-elves should totally have one either the subtype or humanblood trait. But officially they don't, even in the book most suited to giving it to them.

Also, I guess if Silverbrow counts, Aquatic Humans from UA.

[frogglesmash]

Magic of Incarnum has Azurins, and Races of Destiny has Illumians, Mongrel Folk, Sea Kin, Sharakim, Skulks, and Underfolk. Races of Destiny also had a few other races that might fit your criteria, but I wasn't sure, so I didn't include them here.

[noce]

Deep Imaskari from a Forgotten Realms book are humans modified by being exposed to their own transmutations for centuries.

[Malphegor]

Illumians I guess, since they're humans who did a ritual to be made of words. I can't find what subtype they are atm, but it's races of destiny so they probably forgot to type the humans who are humans+magic in the book of human offshoots.

they count

[Feantar]

If we're including modified humans (like elans) then Inspired & Kalashtar from Eberron (a human possessed is still human), and mayyyybe Daelkyr Halfbloods? As these are actually conceived human and modified in utero by a symbiont? Maybe.

The Buomann might not be human actually. It's unclear.

Finally, three weird inclusions. Githyanki and Githzerai were human once. As well as grimlocks. All made by modifications the Illithids did. I really don't know if it should count.


Edit: Also, Karsites from Tome of Magic and Shades from FR (The shadowvar).

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, half-elves and half-orcs do count as human and have the human subtype. In addition Aasimars (Scion of Humanity), Tieflings (Pass For Human), and Fetchlings (Bound To Golarion) count as humans with the human subtype also.

[Katie Boundary]

Sorry, I forgot to mention: UA and Dragon mags don't count.

Races of Destiny was a jackpot :) Slightly confusing in the case of the Sharakim, though. They're orcs that count as human instead of as orcs? They're humans who look exactly like orcs? I don't understand the lore here.

While I considered the Kalashtar, they are officially described as "a distinct species" and "neither spirit nor human; they are a new race that breeds true". The Inspired would count but they're not playable. Why are inspired human and the Kalashtar a new species? I have no idea.

Deep Imaskari aren't given a type or subtype, nor the humanblood trait, but totally should. I'll add them to the list.

All I can find on the Githyanki and Githzerai is that they were descended from a humanlike race.

Daelkyr half-bloods are most commonly born from humans but not always. Even when they are, they're far from 100% human.

Grimlocks are a definite no.

Azurins have the human subtype. Good catch!

[Zerathize]

In Pathfinder, half-elves and half-orcs do count as human and have the human subtype. In addition Aasimars (Scion of Humanity), Tieflings (Pass For Human), and Fetchlings (Bound To Golarion) count as humans with the human subtype also.


Well if you are including Pathfinder, all the genie-kin(ifrit, oread, slyph, and undine) have pass for human as well

[Sian]

Karsites (ToM) explicitly says that they're humans with additional bells and whistles


Human Traits: Karsites possess all the traits of humans as described in the Player's Handbook, except as noted here.

[ShurikVch]

How about Extaminaar and Krinth from Champions of Ruin?

[Katie Boundary]

Karsites (ToM) explicitly says that they're humans with additional bells and whistles

Feantar beat you to it.


How about Extaminaar and Krinth from Champions of Ruin?

"The extaminaars are the snake-blooded..."

Okay that's a negative.

"From these unions came a race of half-demon beings that came to be called the krinth."

Half-demon is exactly one-half too much. Ye Gods, can you imagine how long this list would be if we allowed every kind of half-human, half-something-else?

[ShurikVch]

Then, maybe, Tarmak from Dragonlance Campaign Setting?

[Troacctid]

Anything with the human subtype should count. At +0 LA from books only: aventi, azurin, deep imaskari, extaminaar, illumian, mongrelfolk, neanderthal, sea kin, silverbrow human, underfolk, and vasharan.

Inspired are not really human, they're quori who wear humans like meat suits. Like how Esplin 9466 is actually a yeerk, not an andalite. However, while they're possessing a human body, they count as humanoid (human) for most purposes.

[Psyren]

Inspired are not really human, they're quori who wear humans like meat suits. Like how Esplin 9466 is actually a yeerk, not an andalite. However, while they're possessing a human body, they count as humanoid (human) for most purposes.

Inspired don't, but Empty Vessels (Inspired w/o the creamy quori filling) do, although they're already on the OP's list.

[ThanatosZero]

Weren't the gith (githyanki and githzerai) also originally humans, which became what they are now, through the agelong enslavement of the illithids?

[The Viscount]

The bit about Kalashtar is especially confusing since Kalashtar are descended from Empty Vessels and are essentially in a constant cooperative link with their quori instead of overt possession as the only difference.

I'd propose adding Daelkyr Half-Bloods from Magic of Eberron. Despite the name and the aberration type they are born of human parentage and were tainted by proximity to contained Daelkyr or infection with a Breed Leech during the pregnancy.

[Sian]

found an obscure one

Cynidiceans (EE p146) ... Humans with Low-Light Vision and Light Sensitivity

[Falontani]

While I considered the Kalashtar, they are officially described as "a distinct species" and "neither spirit nor human; they are a new race that breeds true". The Inspired would count but they're not playable. Why are inspired human and the Kalashtar a new species? I have no idea.


Daelkyr half-bloods are most commonly born from humans but not always. Even when they are, they're far from 100% human.


I can explain this!

It all starts with the Quori, which are dream spirits from another plane of existence called Dal Quor. A very long time ago several good aligned Quori decided that they didn't like what happens to them during the turning of the age. So they sought out, bargained with, and possessed some ancient humans. While possessing these humans they learned that they were anchored to the material plane, and immune to the effects of the turning of the age. So stay with the humans they did. For generations. The once human people evolved as biology is won't to do, granting the people increased psionic power, and a reliance on the quori spirit within them. Kalashtar were born. Human now? No. Human descended, yes. Pure human lineage too. Well except when they became a distinct species. Considered them like humans vs neanderthals.. Which are Human subtype.

Well then what are the Empty Vessels and Inspired?
Remember the turning of the age that I was talking about? Well it happened, and the planar alignment changed from good, to evil. And the new quori are pissed off at the old ones for destabilizing the plane. Because something is wrong with Dal Quor. How do they return the old Quori to Dal Quor? By freeing the Quori from their new corporeal form. In other words, though death to all Kalashtar! So they took over the vast majority of a continent (the Kalashtar's continent by rights) created a government enforced cult, and began training the most bestest humans for a spiritual ascension... Though an implanted evil quori spirit who gets to control these uber humans like flesh puppets! Meet the Empty Vessels (trained human stock that has yet to ascend to meat puppet uber human) and Inspired (meat puppet uber human). These Inspired then work to cause a genocide. Oh and if they die, their spirit returns to Dal Quor, gets reborn as a fancy new Quori with rewards given for how good a genocidal spirit they were, and then shoved right back into a new meat puppet.
Fun for the whole family!

Finally we move on to the Daelkyr Halfblood. Who is a pure human... Who was modified in embryo by what's called a Breed Leech, a symbiont created by creatures of reputable power from the plane of madness. Who's minds are so different that merely attempting to comprehend them can cause insanity! Yay! But no seriously these guys, you can't understand them. The best way to try to understand what they are, is to act like they can view and interact with more than three dimensions, without themselves being more than three dimensional. Anyways:
Daelkyr Halfblood: descended from human parents? Yup. Are they human? Well... What do you count as human? They are more human then Elan. That's about as much as can be said...


Next up we have... Mind Flayers/Illithid? Hold up is this right? Yup Illithid are created by adding a tadpole from the illithid breeding pools to a human. (Mostly, although apparently other humanoids work, humans are best.) So this tadpole... When it grows up it just becomes an illithid, right? Wrong, it becomes a gargantuan psionic worm creature called a neolithid, which illithids attempt to prevent at all costs. So without the Human, there is no illithid. Yay!

Where did the illithid race even come from... Oh. The Future. And it is rumored that perhaps, humans evolve into illithid, run out of humanoids to convert into more illithids, so travel back in time to turn what eventual evolves into illithids.. Into illithids, so that their species can continue to evolve. Oh and their slave species was Githyanki and Githzerai... Which are humans that evolved along a different path (probably due to the illithid).

Ya sorry, I'm done.

A suggestion: a table with all the distinctly [human] races, as well as one for all the races that qualify for the Human Heritage feat by virtue of their species.

[Troacctid]

The bit about Kalashtar is especially confusing since Kalashtar are descended from Empty Vessels and are essentially in a constant cooperative link with their quori instead of overt possession as the only difference.
That's not quite correct. Kalashtar came first. Good-aligned quori refugees came to the material plane to escape from the evil quori who were taking over Dal Quor, and merged with human monks to create a new, true-breeding species where the quori's spirit would persist through the kalashtar's bloodline. The evil quori then followed them to the material plane, but instead of developing a symbiotic relationship with the humans, they forcibly possessed them, controlling their actions directly. They established the nation of Riedra and began breeding humans as hosts. Empty vessels are the result of that program—they're bred to be especially vulnerable to quori possession, and to have natural psionic powers. However, they're still separate from the quori who inhabit them. If you exorcise an inspired, you can forcibly remove the quori from the host. Do the same thing to a kalashtar and nothing will happen because they are one being. To continue my increasingly obscure Animorphs metaphor, if the inspired are yeerks, the kalashtar are iskoort.

EDIT: Longstride shifter'd

[Efrate]

Half orc and half elf after their first level paragon class can take levels in human paragon, which I think officially makes them count as human. Also maybe changeling? I know next to nothing about Eberron. I know there was a dragon magazine changeling that was a human but not sure how much of that reflects their first party stats. Also we're Krynn minotaur from dlcs humanoids or giants?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Can't really be added to the list, but I think it's worth noting that anything half-human or "human descended" that takes the Human Heritage feat at 1st level becomes Humanoid (human) and counts as human for most purposes.

EDIT: That could be the highest concentration of the word "human" I have ever typed into a single sentence.

[Katie Boundary]

Assume that this is in the context of categorizing races and subraces, so feats and racial substitution levels and other shenanigans don't count.

However, I think the human clans from OA are functionally subraces. Lore-wise, they're all just "human", and clan has nothing to do with race, but functionally, they're more different from each other and from clan-less humans than Jerrens are from humans, or Half-Drow are from Half-Elves.


Anything with the human subtype should count. At +0 LA from books only: aventi, azurin, deep imaskari, extaminaar, illumian, mongrelfolk, neanderthal, sea kin, silverbrow human, underfolk, and vasharan.

Forgive me for my temporary retardation but in which book did Mongrelfolk get a PC stat block? I'm about 99% sure I've seen it, but it has slipped through my text files and spreadsheet somehow.


Inspired are not really human, they're quori who wear humans like meat suits. Like how Esplin 9466 is actually a yeerk, not an andalite. However, while they're possessing a human body, they count as humanoid (human) for most purposes.

The more pressing issue is that they're not intended to be playable.


Weren't the gith (githyanki and githzerai) also originally humans, which became what they are now, through the agelong enslavement of the illithids?

A humanoid race, but not humans.


Cynidiceans (EE p146) ... Humans with Low-Light Vision and Light Sensitivity

What is EE?


If you exorcise an inspired, you can forcibly remove the quori from the host. Do the same thing to a kalashtar and nothing will happen because they are one being.

Interesting.

[hamishspence]

Forgive me for my temporary retardation but in which book did Mongrelfolk get a PC stat block? I'm about 99% sure I've seen it, but it has slipped through my text files and spreadsheet somehow.
Races of Destiny.



What is EE?

Elder Evils.




A humanoid race, but not humans.



I recall a D&D novel with a god describing the githyanki as "a race of humans that worships a lich queen" (Finder's Bane).

Which may be why sites that discuss them:

https://to-chance-with-hell-planescape.obsidianportal.com/wikis/githzerai
https://to-chance-with-hell-planescape.obsidianportal.com/wikis/githyanki

have been known to portray their progenitor race as human, even if they themselves no longer qualify.

Maybe someone with the original 2e material can confirm if that was the classic portrayal as well?

[Katie Boundary]

Races of Destiny.

Ah, yes, thank you very much. Found it.

"Humanoid (human): Mongrelfolk are humanoid creatures with the human subtype."

Go figure.


Elder Evils.

Okay, I found the page. They don't look like a playable race.

[hamishspence]

Okay, I found the page. They don't look like a playable race.

They're basically Humans with one bonus (Low light vision) and one penalty (Dazzled in bright light). Seems playable to me. Underfolk have exactly the same penalty, but their vision bonus is Darkvision instead of Low light vision.

[ShurikVch]

Frost Folk (Frostburn):
Frost folk are an isolated and xenophobic race descended from humans who struck a bargain with the gods of winter. In exchange for power over snow and ice, they sold their souls to a cruel deity - or, as some claim, an archdevil.

How about Changelings from Eberron? Not just they could count as Humans via Racial Emulation feat, but they also descendants from Humans and Doppelgangers

Excuse me for reiterating, but what's with Tarmak from Dragonlance Campaign Setting?

Your opinion on some "regional" races - such as Abbalaya (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abbalaya), Suloise (https://greyhawk.fandom.com/wiki/Suloise), Talfir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talfir)?


Also, let me question some of your judgments:
Grimlocks are a definite no.Are you sure?
Grimlock (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Grimlock):
Grimlocks were the descendants of humans of Uthgardt ancestry from the Golden Eagle and Red Pony tribes. Long ago, in 576 DR (the Year of the Sunless Passage), these barbarian tribes vanished into the Underdark by way of a passage that leads down from beneath One Stone, the Uthgardt ancestor mound located in the easternmost Moonwood. After years of wandering in the lightless passages of the Underdark, these barbarians evolved to become the current grimlocks.



"The extaminaars are the snake-blooded..."

Okay that's a negative.Don't be so hasty in discarding them.
They are still Human descendants...
For example, let's see the Snake Blood feat from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:
The taint of the yuan-ti runs in your veins. No outward signs give away your heritage, but you are something more - or less - than entirely human.Or even Serpent Bloodline (https://ia802802.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/21/items/DragonMagazine260_201801/DragonMagazine325_jp2.zip&file=DragonMagazine325_jp2/DragonMagazine325_0051.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0)...



"From these unions came a race of half-demon beings that came to be called the krinth."

Half-demon is exactly one-half too much. Ye Gods, can you imagine how long this list would be if we allowed every kind of half-human, half-something-else?Oh, come on!
Their Type is not even Outsider, for crying out loud!
They're less "half-demons" than Tieflings!
What's next?
You will disavow from Humans characters with Fiendish Bloodline?
Or how about the Warlock base class?



Okay, I found the page. They don't look like a playable race.And what's so unplayable about them?
Their history aside, they're literally just Humans with Low-Light Vision and Light Sensitivity...

[Katie Boundary]

ShurikVch, this thread is about "100% human-descended" races. Not 99% or 50% or any other number.

[hamishspence]

Two separate questions "which races count as human" for the purposes of feats etc, and "which races are human-descended - no other creature has interbred with them".

Mongrelfolk are the first, but not the second. So are a number of others.

Grimlocks, as far as we know, are the second, but not the first. Githyanki and githzerai, in the fluff, may also qualify, just like grimlocks, as "human-descended but not human".

[Troacctid]

Also, race is really just a social construct. The boundaries of who is and is not human are conventional, not innate. Biologically speaking, as long as a race is genetically compatible enough with humans to produce viable offspring without the aid of magic (looking at you, dragons, you dirty cheaters), they can be considered part of the same species. By that metric, elves and orcs are humans too.

[hamishspence]

Biologically speaking, as long as a race is genetically compatible enough with humans to produce viable offspring without the aid of magic (looking at you, dragons, you dirty cheaters), they can be considered part of the same species. By that metric, elves and orcs are humans too.

Up to a point, yes - the rule tends to be that if the offspring of A and B has an increased chance of being sterile (it doesn't have to be an absolute guarantee that the offspring are sterile) then A and B are different species.

[frogglesmash]

Also, race is really just a social construct. The boundaries of who is and is not human are conventional, not innate. Biologically speaking, as long as a race is genetically compatible enough with humans to produce viable offspring without the aid of magic (looking at you, dragons, you dirty cheaters), they can be considered part of the same species. By that metric, elves and orcs are humans too.

Most fantasy don't use the term "race" the same way it's used in the real world. In d&d, races could more accurately be described as separate species.

[Troacctid]

Most fantasy don't use the term "race" the same way it's used in the real world. In d&d, races could more accurately be described as separate species.
The ability of humans and elves to interbreed should also qualify them as the same species.

[frogglesmash]

The ability of humans and elves to interbreed should also qualify them as the same species.

That is not the sole qualifying factor for being considered the same species. Shared ancestry is another factor, and seeing as elves were created, fully formed, by their God, I doubt they share any ancestry with humans.

Trying to apply real world biological/evolutionary theory to d&d is almost as bad an idea as trying to the same with real world physics.

[Calthropstu]

Maenads from dsp psionics are human.


The ability of humans and elves to interbreed should also qualify them as the same species.

Explain half dragons then.

[hamishspence]

Explain half dragons then.

Dragons are massively imbued with magic, that's how.

[Calthropstu]

Dragons are massively imbued with magic, that's how.

So are elves.

[hamishspence]

So are elves.

Not really. None (or at least, hardly any) of an elf's "racial traits" stop functioning in an antimagic field. Whereas a dragon has many traits that stop functioning.

[NNescio]

Also, race is really just a social construct. The boundaries of who is and is not human are conventional, not innate. Biologically speaking, as long as a race is genetically compatible enough with humans to produce viable offspring without the aid of magic (looking at you, dragons, you dirty cheaters), they can be considered part of the same species. By that metric, elves and orcs are humans too.

That's... not exactly true. Mayr's definition (AKA the biological species concept) is commonly regurgitated in textbooks and trivia, but no sensible modern biologist will hold it strictly because of the sheer number of exceptions. (Heck, exceptions are almost certainly more common than the rule when you move out of the animal kingdom,)

To use an example, Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis can interbreed with each other to produce viable offspring. It's in the fossil record, and is proven in our genes. Most scientists (by which I mean "paleoanthropologist") still consider us separate species. (Do a search for Homo neanderthalensis vs. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis on an literature archive.)

Wolves and dogs can interbreed with other Canis spp. Polar bears can interbreed with grizzlies. So can chimpanzees and bonobos. Cave bears have interbred with brown bears — their genes still survive today. Mules are sometimes fertile. A paper (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-294X.2007.03529.x) estimated that up to 88 percent of all fish species can interbreed with at least one other. Another (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ibi.12285) estimated 16% for birds.

Plants hybridize even more readily across species 'barriers'. Ever had a grapefruit? It's a hybrid between the sweet orange (Citrus sinesis) and pomelo (C. maxima) (a natural hybrid, even). Clementines, sour oranges, lemons/limes, bergamots and tangelos? All interspecific hybrids. Heck, even the sweet orange itself is an interspecific hybrid.

Macademia? Hybrid. Grape? Likewise (well, more of an introgressive hybrid involving many different species instead of a simple cross, but still). Walnut? Same. Tahitian vanilla? Yes. Wheat? Yes (different genii, even!). Barley? Gee, a lot of these are important crops, aren't they?

Next we move to bacteria... wait, most of them are asexual and don't even (usually) interbreed, do they? The Biological Species Concept just falls completely apart by this point. Sure, there is horizontal gene transfer, and bacterial conjugation is kindaaa like sexual reproduction, but guess what, it can jump across genii barriers as well (https://jb.asm.org/content/jb/87/1/54.full.pdf) (here we have E. coli 'mating' with Salmonella typhosa).


Up to a point, yes - the rule tends to be that if the offspring of A and B has an increased chance of being sterile (it doesn't have to be an absolute guarantee that the offspring are sterile) then A and B are different species.

This rule is simply untenable. Trivially, I can have an inbred line of plants, or, well, some poor purebred dogs. The line gets successively less fertile with each generation. Are they different species? Of course not. This get even more ridiculous when considering two clones from the same plant.

It can be a useful heuristic of sorts, but only if you already have some a priori idea that you are dealing with different species. Like, say, different morphologies, habitats, life and migration cycles, a sequenced genome at hand, etc. (all of which are usually what modern biologists consider when determining speciation). Someone who is still unsure by this point can try to crossbreed them to check for fertility.


The ability of humans and elves to interbreed should also qualify them as the same species.

The ability of grizzlies and polar bears to interbreed doesn't qualify them as the same species.

[hamishspence]

This rule is simply untenable. Trivially, I can have an inbred line of plants, or, well, some poor purebred dogs. The line gets successively less fertile with each generation. Are they different species? Of course not. This get even more ridiculous when considering two clones from the same plant.

It can be a useful heuristic of sorts, but only if you already have some a priori idea on whether you are dealing with different species. Like, say, different morphologies, habitats, life and migration cycles, a sequenced genome at hand, etc. (all of which are usually what modern biologists consider when determining speciation). Someone who is still unsure by this point can try to crossbreed them to check for fertility.

That's why I said "tends to be" rather than "is".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_isolation

Hybrid sterility
A hybrid has normal viability but is typically deficient in terms of reproduction or is sterile.




The ability of grizzlies and polar bears to interbreed doesn't qualify them as the same species.

A better reason might be polar bears being nested within the brown bear complex.

[HouseRules]

On one end, there are examples of two species that could form fertile hybrids.
Thus, the fertility and sterility is not the only factor.
The number of chromosomes is another factor, but not the only factor.
There are many other factors that are not clearly defined.

Polar bears vs Brown Bears anyone?
Wolves vs Dogs (clearly subspecies).

[The Viscount]

On this subject, the text about half-orcs and half-elves talks a lot about them being of two lineages and torn between worlds. It also talks about them finding some community in those like them. However, I don't know that I've ever seen address if half-orcs or half-elves can come from half-orc or half-elf parents.

[ViperMagnum357]

ShurikVch already mentioned the Tarmak from the DLCS, but I do not see them listed in the initial post. They are 100% human, being Humanoid with the Human subtype-they just have ability modifiers.

Similar to most Dragonlance stuff, they were updated in the later setting books, in this case Races of Ansalon; but those books were produced under license rather than by WOTC. Hence, instead of the the standard purple WOTC seal, they have the same seal with 'Official Licensed Product' in the ring around the scroll logo. If that is fine with you, it opens up two more Human species: Damjatt and Keena.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

However, I don't know that I've ever seen address if half-orcs or half-elves can come from half-orc or half-elf parents.

I swear I saw somewhere that half-elves are generally viewed as bastards (in the literal sense), even if born of half-elf parents. Might have been 5e, though.

[Katie Boundary]

The existence of the Mechanatrix race (FF, page 137) proves that humanoids are capable of interbreeding with Modrons and/or Inevitables. Real-world biology is toilet paper in a discussion like this.


Two separate questions "which races count as human" for the purposes of feats etc, and "which races are human-descended - no other creature has interbred with them".

Mongrelfolk are the first, but not the second. So are a number of others.

Yes, I'm aware. That's why the OP includes descriptions of each one, and what they do, don't, and should count as.

Also, fun fact, the Mongrelfolk as printed in the Fiend Folio originally had the "(Mongrelfolk)" subtype. This was changed to "(Human)" in Races of Destiny for reasons that I can only begin to guess at (probably having something to do with humans being responsible for vastly more interracial banging than most other races, and therefore Mongrelfolk having a much higher percentage of human in their ancestry than any other one race).


ShurikVch already mentioned the Tarmak from the DLCS

I can't find them. Just "civilized" humans and "nomadic" humans, which don't differ from each other or from PHB humans in any way except their automatic and bonus languages.

[ViperMagnum357]

I can't find them. Just "civilized" humans and "nomadic" humans, which don't differ from each other or from PHB humans in any way except their automatic and bonus languages.

Tarmak are in the the creatures section of the DLCS book, page 232.

[NontheistCleric]

Brood Monkeys (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) are devolved humans, playable with 2 RHD and +2 LA.

[Katie Boundary]

Tarmak are in the the creatures section of the DLCS book, page 232.

Holy crap, there's a whole chapter here that I somehow missed. This will be a huge help!

EDIT: they're not given a proper PC stat block, just an NPC stat block and a level adjustment, leaving them in the "default-deny" category of playability.


Brood Monkeys (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) are devolved humans, playable with 2 RHD and +2 LA.

Okay... what book are they from?

[Psyren]

On this subject, the text about half-orcs and half-elves talks a lot about them being of two lineages and torn between worlds. It also talks about them finding some community in those like them. However, I don't know that I've ever seen address if half-orcs or half-elves can come from half-orc or half-elf parents.

Pathfinder covers this topic - half-elves and half-orcs breed true. Advanced Race Guide:


Half-elves can breed with one another, but even these “pureblood” half-elves tend to be viewed as bastards by humans and elves alike. Caught between destiny and derision, half-elves often view themselves as the middle children of the world.


Less commonly, human cities may allow half-orcs a more normal existence, even enabling them to develop small communities of their own. These communities are...the best places for young half-orcs to grow up without prejudice, and these small enclaves are one of the few places where half-orc marriages and children are truly accepted and sometimes cherished.

As for "quarter-elves" or "quarter-humans" - you can use alternate racial traits or even the Race Builder to represent a half-orc or half-elf who is more (or less) human than the normal specimen. For a truly diluted descendant, you can start with a pure human and then add on a racial heritage or a few traits.

[Sian]

Okay... what book are they from?

IIRC they're web-specific

[Psyren]

Okay... what book are they from?

Looks to be web-only. From the first article in the series:


Welcome to the first installment of the Far Corners of the World series of articles! Each article explores unusual and rare spells, monsters, and magic items related to the distant and often inhospitable reaches of any campaign world. These spells, monsters, and items are presented in a world-neutral format so that you can adapt them easily to your own campaign world, where they can be discovered as rewards and punishments for a party of adventurers who choose to travel far from their homes in search of adventure.

[NontheistCleric]

Okay... what book are they from?

They're web-only, as others have mentioned. I included a link in my post, in case you missed that. Just click on the words 'Brood Monkey'.

[Katie Boundary]

Sorry, I was hoping it had appeared in an actual book, and the link was just the most convenient source. OP has been edited to clarify what sources I consider valid.

[Luccan]

Sorry, I was hoping it had appeared in an actual book, and the link was just the most convenient source. OP has been edited to clarify what sources I consider valid.

Wait, why not Web-sources? As long as it's posted by Wizards it's 1st party material (so is UA, but I don't think it's relevant, since Aquatic Humans are already Human).

[Katie Boundary]

I honestly don't have a well-thought-out reason. Maybe I once did but forgot what it was. Perhaps it was the difficulty of effectively combing through so much information split up into so many tiny pieces. Perhaps it's the historical nature of D&D as a pencils-and-paper game, and the fact that, even if all the electricity in the world stopped working, players should still be able to not only play it, but prove that certain races/classes exist and are valid. Perhaps it's just that anything in a weekly or monthly publication will feel like it's there to be the obligatory "race/class/whatever of the week", make subscribers feel like they're getting something for their money, and then be forgotten about, rather than to actually make the game better. I mean, Third Edition had such a spammy release cycle that it once released three books in a single month, and some stuff clearly slipped through the cracks during playtesting. How low must the bar be for stuff that wasn't even important enough to get published in the books?

I'm not stuck in my ways about this, but I'd at least like to spend more time familiarizing myself with the over one hundred books published by WotC before moving on to other sources like magazines, licensed third-party books, and so on.

[ShurikVch]

Check the Chapter 7: Humans in Races of Faerûn - various "regional races" there get different stuff - such as bonus languages

Tarmak got full Racial Traits listed in 3rd-party Races of Ansalon

And, once again: what's with Frost Folk from Frostburn?

[Feantar]

I'm AFB currently, but aren't Neanderthals from frostburn human?

[hamishspence]

I'm AFB currently, but aren't Neanderthals from frostburn human?

Yes, and they're in the OP:


Neanderthal - snow humans. They have the humanblood trait and the human subtype.

[The Viscount]

Talaire from Complete Psionic are a peculiar race that don't have the normal traits entry. They are described multiple times as humans, and the only difference being their bonus feat must be a specific one depending on their house association.

[Feantar]

Yes, and they're in the OP:

Apologies, I looked and completely missed it. :smallredface:

[Katie Boundary]

And, once again: what's with Frost Folk from Frostburn?

Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Cold), no humanblood trait.

But they should have it, as they're just humans who sold their souls to the ice gods


Talaire from Complete Psionic are a peculiar race that don't have the normal traits entry. They are described multiple times as humans, and the only difference being their bonus feat must be a specific one depending on their house association.

*consults the books*

It sounds like, if you want to be one, you just pick the standard PHB human as your race and then one of the House-specific wild talent feats as your level 1 bonus feat... so they're not really a race just like Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't a race and Mithril Warforged aren't a race.

EDIT: in fact, you can take the house-specific Wild Talent variants AFTER character-creation, and spontaneously turn an ordinary PHB human into a Talaire. So definitely not their own race.

EDIT 2:


Tarmak got full Racial Traits listed in 3rd-party Races of Ansalon

I apologize for not investigating this earlier. I didn't realize that you were talking about a Dragonlance book. All three of the Ithin'carthian "races" qualify. Good catch!