Eldritch Blast + Grasp of Hadar + Flight

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I was wondering if this would work.

So you level up to level 17. You take at least 2 levels of Warlock for the invocation Grasp of Hadar and the spell Eldritch Blast. Two levels of Fighter for Action Surge, and the rest of the levels go in Sorcerer for access to unlimited flight from Draconic or Divine Soul sorcerer, as well as the Quicken metamagic. (You could also roll an Aarakocra and put those levels into one of the other classes)

At level 17, you have four Eldritch Blast beams. If you quicken, you can cast it again for 8 beams, and then action surge for another to move it up to 12. With the invocation Grasp of Hadar, every time you hit, you pull the opponent towards you. If you are sitting 120 feet above your opponent through the use of your wings, you pull them 10 feet straight upwards for every hit you make. If someone in your group casts fairie fire first, you are fairly likely to hit most of your blasts, and it is not completely unreasonable that you might manage to hit every attack especially on a low AC opponent, dragging them 120 feet straight upward.

Does that mean that, in addition to your eldritch blast damage, you also potentially inflict up to 12d6 falling damage, given that the opponent has no way to slow a fall or fly? I realize a number that high wouldn't be until 17th level, but it'd still be significant at lower levels.

Is there something I'm not seeing here or is this an incredibly powerful combo?

[ThatoneGuy84]

Rule of cool says absolutely. At level 17 that really isnt that much extra damage. Considering 17 casters get 9th level spell slots.

For extra fun target different enemies each for 30-40 feet of drag into the air, let them fall and be prone for your melee team to stomp.

Though I'm sure you can use this at lower levels by simply getting a broom of flying.

[airless_wing]

It's not really incredibly powerful, especially considering it comes online at that high of a level of play. By the 4th tier, most enemies that necessitate burning most of your metamagics and action surging for will be able to fly, or at least have some other form to escape.
Do creatures with immunity to non-magical bludgeon, piercing, and slashing weapons even take fall damage in this case?
It isn't a bad combo, it just isn't terribly powerful at that level of play.

[Spiritchaser]

AFB but doesn’t grasp of hadar say once on each of your turns?

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

It's not really incredibly powerful, especially considering it comes online at that high of a level of play. By the 4th tier, most enemies that necessitate burning most of your metamagics and action surging for will be able to fly, or at least have some other form to escape.
Do creatures with immunity to non-magical bludgeon, piercing, and slashing weapons even take fall damage in this case?
It isn't a bad combo, it just isn't terribly powerful at that level of play.

Yeah, even monsters immune to bludgeoning take fall damage.


And I realize that there are a decent amount of flying enemies. But 12x1d10+5 already seems like a pretty solid amount of damage, adding 12d6 on top of it seems like it would be pretty strong, but I've never really played at the top tier, so maye it isn't as good as just using a 9th level spell.

It would scale up to that point, though. If you go Aarakocra or grab a Broom of Flying you can do this from a fairly early level, as soon as you're able to get 2 levels of warlock, even, you just need the sorcerer/fighter levels for boosting the number of attacks you get as high as possible, but the beams themselves will go up on their own no matter how you level. Maybe it would be better as a mid-tier level strategy, like around 11? Less blasts but things have less defences for it and less HP to soak it up?


AFB but doesn’t grasp of hadar say once on each of your turns?

Oh! So it does. Yep, this doesn't work. Thank you.

[airless_wing]

AFB but doesn’t grasp of hadar say once on each of your turns?

Aww you're right, it does. I was just dreaming up an Ascendant Step + Grasp of Hadar concept but that's nixed now.

[HiveStriker]

I was wondering if this would work.

So you level up to level 17. You take at least 2 levels of Warlock for the invocation Grasp of Hadar and the spell Eldritch Blast. Two levels of Fighter for Action Surge, and the rest of the levels go in Sorcerer for access to unlimited flight from Draconic or Divine Soul sorcerer, as well as the Quicken metamagic. (You could also roll an Aarakocra and put those levels into one of the other classes)

At level 17, you have four Eldritch Blast beams. If you quicken, you can cast it again for 8 beams, and then action surge for another to move it up to 12. With the invocation Grasp of Hadar, every time you hit, you pull the opponent towards you. If you are sitting 120 feet above your opponent through the use of your wings, you pull them 10 feet straight upwards for every hit you make. If someone in your group casts fairie fire first, you are fairly likely to hit most of your blasts, and it is not completely unreasonable that you might manage to hit every attack especially on a low AC opponent, dragging them 120 feet straight upward.

Does that mean that, in addition to your eldritch blast damage, you also potentially inflict up to 12d6 falling damage, given that the opponent has no way to slow a fall or fly? I realize a number that high wouldn't be until 17th level, but it'd still be significant at lower levels.

Is there something I'm not seeing here or is this an incredibly powerful combo?
Hi

As others stressed, sadly, Grasp of Hadar is only one per cast.
HOWEVER... By RAW the "pushing blast" (don't remember the name) is ON EVERY BEAM.
So, if you really want a "ROC" trick: make a Sorcerer that can reliably Grapple an enemy and carry him above head.

Next, announce that you release one hand just when enemy is straight above to cast first Eldricht Blast (or have Subtle if your DM is mean. But such a DM would probably dismiss the whole idea anyways...)
Push on every ray. Use your movement to just strafe away enough to not have enemy land on your head. Repeat.

It can actually be a VERY effective tactic... While it lasts (barring the kinda ridiculous aspet of the thing).
--> You deal extra damage, avoid any OA, and put enemy prone meaning advantage for others and half speed wasted getting up.
--> If you use it systematically, enemies will certainly adjust after, best cases, a few encounters, and either simply avoid you or try and disable you as quickly as possible.

However, doing it occasionally, possibly with an anticipated strategy to make the most of it (aka 8 rays thanks to cast + Quicken cast) should be totally acceptable for everybody, and fun. :)

Final note: as a DM, I would allow that. So I would also perfectly allow some teamplay with a big brawny pal doing the "grappling above" for you. After all, he's using his own action for that...

[Anymage]

*snip*

All of this works fine as a situational trick. If the enemy isn't flying, and if you're outdoors, and if it isn't too large to be grappled. The wizard casts Fly on the barbarian, the barbarian grapples and flies up, and the warlock juggles the enemy so it faces an impressive fall at the end. That list of "if" a moment ago explains why it isn't a trick you can rely on, though.

The bulk of the damage from the build also comes from EBs. (1d10+5 for each bolt compared to 1d6 for fall damage.) At which point, yes, combining EB with Quicken does allow for solid DPR that also has the advantage of being usable on a good number of your rounds. Warlock2/SorcererX probably pulls off more consistent DPR than trying to squeeze in Action Surge or flight/grapple shenanigans on top of that.

[Greywander]

I mean, couldn't you just play, say, a halfling, get under them, and then blast them straight up? Get Crossbow Expert so you don't have disadvantage on the attack rolls, and make sure to save enough movement to get out of the way.

Not sure it's worth it just for this one gimmick, but if you're already playing a halfling warlock and you get the opportunity...

[JackPhoenix]

I mean, couldn't you just play, say, a halfling, get under them, and then blast them straight up? Get Crossbow Expert so you don't have disadvantage on the attack rolls, and make sure to save enough movement to get out of the way.

Not sure it's worth it just for this one gimmick, but if you're already playing a halfling warlock and you get the opportunity...

Not unless they are flying, at which point shoving them up doesn't matter. You can't stop in another creature's space.

[HiveStriker]

All of this works fine as a situational trick. If the enemy isn't flying, and if you're outdoors, and if it isn't too large to be grappled. The wizard casts Fly on the barbarian, the barbarian grapples and flies up, and the warlock juggles the enemy so it faces an impressive fall at the end. That list of "if" a moment ago explains why it isn't a trick you can rely on, though.

The bulk of the damage from the build also comes from EBs. (1d10+5 for each bolt compared to 1d6 for fall damage.) At which point, yes, combining EB with Quicken does allow for solid DPR that also has the advantage of being usable on a good number of your rounds. Warlock2/SorcererX probably pulls off more consistent DPR than trying to squeeze in Action Surge or flight/grapple shenanigans on top of that.
I agree on the core assertion that this is overall a trick and not a "winning tactic", but...
1) You're underselling it: added damage is slight, but having the guy prone and waste half speed is like imposing a Trip Attack. Each taken separately is meh, but both at once is solid.
2) You are speaking of "situational" when stacking open enough gound + creature size + not flying (which are checks easily made for at least 50% of encounters in all adventure) then chain with "Wizard + has Flying + Barbarian".
How is that less situational? XD


I mean, couldn't you just play, say, a halfling, get under them, and then blast them straight up? Get Crossbow Expert so you don't have disadvantage on the attack rolls, and make sure to save enough movement to get out of the way.

Not sure it's worth it just for this one gimmick, but if you're already playing a halfling warlock and you get the opportunity...


Not unless they are flying, at which point shoving them up doesn't matter. You can't stop in another creature's space.
You're right by RAW but I don't see any decent DM denying the tactic on that ground (especially if both are really different sizes)...

[Damon_Tor]

You can't stop in another creature's space.

Unclear if this works or not. It says you can't willingly "end your move" in another creature's space, but it isn't entirely clear what that means. If "your move" is the sum total of all your movement for a given turn, usually 30 feet, then you could move 15 feet into another creature's square, attack them from inside their own space, then move 15 feet to exit their space again. Then again, if "your move" is instead meant to mean any period of movement not interrupted by another action, then you're right, it wouldn't work.

I would rule with the first definition. A creature doesn't have to "stop" to attack or take other actions, which means it can do things like jump into the air to grapple a flying opponent.

EDIT: Apparently the intent (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/636294197226528769?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E636294197226528769&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2015%2F0 9%2F17%2Fattack-in-an-ally-occupied-space%2F) is that you cannot end any part of your move in another creature's space. So rules-as-intended it wouldn't work, rules-as-written its ambiguous. By rule-of-cool I think it absolutely would. Being able to run under a giant's feet and slash at his ankles before riding out the other side seems like something the game would be poorer for lacking. Running under said giant and shooting him in the **** to send him into orbit, well that seems... that seems just fine. The part of me that played Skyrim feels like that's the sort of justice I could get behind.

[JackPhoenix]

Unclear if this works or not. It says you can't willingly "end your move" in another creature's space, but it isn't entirely clear what that means. If "your move" is the sum total of all your movement for a given turn, usually 30 feet, then you could move 15 feet into another creature's square, attack them from inside their own space, then move 15 feet to exit their space again. Then again, if "your move" is instead meant to mean any period of movement not interrupted by another action, then you're right, it wouldn't work.

I would rule with the first definition. A creature doesn't have to "stop" to attack or take other actions, which means it can do things like jump into the air to grapple a flying opponent.

RAI is the later.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/08/01/can-a-character-move-into-a-space-occupied-by-their-ally-make-an-attack-and-then-move-away/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/17/attack-in-an-ally-occupied-space/

[Catullus64]

Do creatures with immunity to non-magical bludgeon, piercing, and slashing weapons even take fall damage in this case?


Damage resistances and immunities are nearly all phrased as "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical attacks." Gravity don't make no attack rolls.

[Dualswinger]

Just a quick reminder to take Eldritch spear so you don't accidentally blast them beyond E blasts basic range

[Greywander]

Not unless they are flying, at which point shoving them up doesn't matter. You can't stop in another creature's space.
Halfling Nimbleness lets you move through the space of a creature that is larger than you. You're going to move out of the way anyway so they don't land on top of you, so you're not ending your turn in their space.

[Damon_Tor]

RAI is the later.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/08/01/can-a-character-move-into-a-space-occupied-by-their-ally-make-an-attack-and-then-move-away/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/17/attack-in-an-ally-occupied-space/

I saw that and edited my post to reflect it.

The wording is, nonetheless, ambiguous. "end your move" can be read in a few different ways, and there seems to be no implication that you have to stop moving to attack or cast a spell. For example, why can't a fighter run in a straight line with his glaive past three guys, never stopping, and make his three attacks while moving? That's perfectly acceptable from a narrative and simulation perspective (ie, it both looks cool and should be possible) and since the rules as written allow it, it works from a gamist perspective as well. On the same token, why can't a warlock run from behind one tree to another, firing a volley of eldritch blasts as he runs, without stopping? Same logic applies, why does his movement have to stop to cast the spell? And from there we get to the scenario we're discussing here: why can't a warlock run through a giant's space and fire an eldritch blast at it's butt as it passes beneath it, never stopping?

[JackPhoenix]

Halfling Nimbleness lets you move through the space of a creature that is larger than you. You're going to move out of the way anyway so they don't land on top of you, so you're not ending your turn in their space.

Not turn. Movement. You can't move in the giant's (or human's, as halfling) space, stop to cast a spell, and them move away. Not that it would work you even if you could: the spell would have to be resolved first, which means the target falls back while you're still in their space, before you get a chance to move away.


I saw that and edited my post to reflect it.

The wording is, nonetheless, ambiguous. "end your move" can be read in a few different ways, and there seems to be no implication that you have to stop moving to attack or cast a spell. For example, why can't a fighter run in a straight line with his glaive past three guys, never stopping, and make his three attacks while moving? That's perfectly acceptable from a narrative and simulation perspective (ie, it both looks cool and should be possible) and since the rules as written allow it, it works from a gamist perspective as well. On the same token, why can't a warlock run from behind one tree to another, firing a volley of eldritch blasts as he runs, without stopping? Same logic applies, why does his movement have to stop to cast the spell? And from there we get to the scenario we're discussing here: why can't a warlock run through a giant's space and fire an eldritch blast at it's butt as it passes beneath it, never stopping?

From narrative perspective, it makes sense. The game mechanics, for obvious reasons of needing the actions be resolvable by humans instead of a computer doing all positioning and timing calculations in real-time, however, need to divide them into discrete chunks.

"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet. "

Before and after your action, not during your action (unless you're making multiple weapon attacks with the same action, or the action allows you to move by specific rule, of course). It's bad enough that the game doesn't tell you what happens if you end your movement in another creature's space unwillingly. Do the character get share the space, even though you can't by the rules, unless one of you is a mount? Is he moved into nearest unoccupied space? The last space he was in? Drop prone, or something?

[Damon_Tor]

Not turn. Movement. You can't move in the giant's (or human's, as halfling) space, stop to cast a spell, and them move away. Not that it would work you even if you could: the spell would have to be resolved first, which means the target falls back while you're still in their space, before you get a chance to move away.



From narrative perspective, it makes sense. The game mechanics, for obvious reasons of needing the actions be resolvable by humans instead of a computer doing all positioning and timing calculations in real-time, however, need to divide them into discrete chunks.

"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet. "

Before and after your action, not during your action (unless you're making multiple weapon attacks with the same action, or the action allows you to move by specific rule, of course). It's bad enough that the game doesn't tell you what happens if you end your movement in another creature's space unwillingly. Do the character get share the space, even though you can't by the rules, unless one of you is a mount? Is he moved into nearest unoccupied space? The last space he was in? Drop prone, or something?

You speak of mounts, and it got me thinking.

We can do this, even with this interpretation.

Be a small PC. Mount a medium PC. Ready action: cast Eldritch blast. On the mounted PCs turn he moves through the target's space. Your Eldritch blast triggers while under the target and you blast him into the sky.

[JackPhoenix]

You speak of mounts, and it got me thinking.

We can do this, even with this interpretation.

Be a small PC. Mount a medium PC. Ready action: cast Eldritch blast. On the mounted PCs turn he moves through the target's space. Your Eldritch blast triggers while under the target and you blast him into the sky.

That limits you to huge and larger creatures, due to humans being medium. Lot of work for 1d6 extra damage and prone, though.

And it's still not clear if you're *under* the target. If you share its space, the target is technically all around you, not just above you.