One of my players is much stronger than the others and I don’t know what to do

[rondragon123]

I’m running Descent into Avernus to 5 people, one of which is playing the revised ranger which I foolishly allowed him to. They are all 2nd level and it got to a point where he kills everything before my melee players even get a chance to hit anything. He does minimum of 9 damage when hitting his favored enemy (since bandits gate only has humanoids, so +2 from favored enemy +4 from his dex mod, and +2 archery and a minimum of 1 on the dice)
Today he did 27 damage with zephyr strike, at level 2, and everyone yelled at him for being stupid strong and were mad they had no chance to help in the encounters I threw on them.
What can I do to balance things out without making everyone else get OP magic items and without giving them deadly encounters on a regular basis?

[Tiadoppler]

I’m running Descent into Avernus to 5 people, one of which is playing the revised ranger which I foolishly allowed him to. They are all 2nd level and it got to a point where he kills everything before my melee players even get a chance to hit anything. He does minimum of 9 damage when hitting his favored enemy (since bandits gate only has humanoids, so +2 from favored enemy +4 from his dex mod, and +2 archery and a minimum of 1 on the dice)
Today he did 27 damage with zephyr strike, at level 2, and everyone yelled at him for being stupid strong and were mad they had no chance to help in the encounters I threw on them.
What can I do to balance things out without making everyone else get OP magic items and without giving them deadly encounters on a regular basis?

First thing I notice: Archery fighting style doesn't increase an attack's damage. It increases the accuracy.

Second thing: 18 DEX at level 2 - I'm guessing you're using rolled stats. How does the Ranger's stat block compare with the other characters'? Is it stronger/weaker in other ways?

Other than that: What classes/builds are the other characters using?

[solidork]

Archery fighting style doesnt increase damage, it's +2 to hit.

Have fights in enclosed spaces. Have enemies take advantage of cover.

[firelistener]

First, don't do anything to nerf the Ranger. It's pretty rare that they get a chance to really shine like that, so your player is doing an excellent job.
I suggest having a few enemies use the Dash action to focus the Ranger and get within melee range and gang up on him, and having any others take cover specifically hiding from him. That will give the ranger disadvantage on attacks (being 5ft from an enemy) and give the enemies an AC boost (cover). Maybe have them say a line or two about having heard about some crazy-skilled archer take down their buddies, so it doesn't feel as much like you are singling him out as the DM.

Your Ranger would probably just cast Zephyr Strike to get around what I described. My second suggestion, that being the case, is to try burning up the Ranger's spells before allowing a long rest. If your Ranger is able to recover resources too quickly, he'll continue to outshine everyone.

[JellyPooga]

Mooks. Minions. Cannon Fodder.

This Ranger might be able to take out 2 or 3 foes in a single round, but how about 5? 6? 10? If he's trivialising small numbers, then simply increase that number. This will have two effects; 1) the other players get to do something and 2) the group, as a whole, will get a greater sense of achievement for overcoming larger odds.

Alternatively, if range is the issue, then start encounters closer, utilise cover so the Ranger can't draw LoS on everyone, give foes ranged weapons so he has to take cover. Throw in some concealment to cover their approach.

Tell the other players to consider similar ideas. If they're frustrated at being ineffectual, encourage them to fix it themselves, instead of blaming the Ranger for being "too good" or you for not providing sufficient challenge.

[Sparky McDibben]

I assume the ranger is fighting from the rear. Use enemies with misty step to bypass the front line and target him aggressively. Or, have the enemies come in waves from different directions at the same time, flanking the party and locking down the ranger. Also, make sure they are tracking ammunition.

Change up your enemy types. Use a couple goblin mercs, etc.

Consider using more varied equipment loadouts. In 3rd edition, there was something called a tower shield. Have one enemy carrying one of those that gives partial 3/4 cover to everyone behind them. The bad guys behind them step out of cover, shoot at the ranger, and then step back into cover. The best part is that this cover can move, forcing your ranger to split off from the party to nullify cover. Alternatively, maybe if the shield-bearers take the Dodge action and don't move, they and everyone behind them get total cover? Just a thought.

Finally, I second not nerfing the ranger. Just have word "gotten around" that the party is incredibly dangerous, hence the varied tactics. After all, just the ranger is lethal, so the bad guys don't even know what can the rest of the party do.

[Contrast]

This Ranger might be able to take out 2 or 3 foes in a single round, but how about 5? 6? 10?

As a level 2 ranger he should be capable to taking out precisely 1 foe a round generally - I'm a little confused how they're apparently consistently killing everything before anyone else can contribute. The only AoE they have is Hail of Thorns.

Out of interest how many sessions have you played? Keep in mind the player might just be rolling well.

[Sparky McDibben]

As a level 2 ranger he should be capable to taking out precisely 1 foe a round generally - I'm a little confused how they're apparently consistently killing everything before anyone else can contribute. The only AoE they have is Hail of Thorns.

Out of interest how many sessions have you played? Keep in mind the player might just be rolling well.

Might also be a solid tactical player taking advantage of surprise, opportunity attacks, etc. Don't let them take Gloom Stalker.

[rondragon123]

As a level 2 ranger he should be capable to taking out precisely 1 foe a round generally - I'm a little confused how they're apparently consistently killing everything before anyone else can contribute. The only AoE they have is Hail of Thorns.

Out of interest how many sessions have you played? Keep in mind the player might just be rolling well.

We had 2 sessions so far. The thing is, enemies are being spotted before the fights begin, and then he can just deal with them before they get to him first. The module doesn’t have anything to deal with that and on the other hand I don’t wanna change what the book tells me to do... i really don’t know what to do about this guy because he’s making everyone mad with his combat abilities being too good, and I don’t want to nerf him because we all know that it’s not fun to take away from someone abilities...

[RSP]

We had 2 sessions so far. The thing is, enemies are being spotted before the fights begin, and then he can just deal with them before they get to him first. The module doesn’t have anything to deal with that and on the other hand I don’t wanna change what the book tells me to do... i really don’t know what to do about this guy because he’s making everyone mad with his combat abilities being too good, and I don’t want to nerf him because we all know that it’s not fun to take away from someone abilities...

How are they spotting enemies? If it’s all humanoids and they’re just attacking anything that moves, throw some civilians at them, and have them deal with the consequences of shooting before asking questions.

After that, have some “civilians” get close enough to surprise them.

Edit: also the book expects you to do what you can to make the campaign better for your group. Don’t be afraid to change things up (like the above civilian scheme).

[Contrast]

Might also be a solid tactical player taking advantage of surprise, opportunity attacks, etc. Don't let them take Gloom Stalker.

I mean if the party is getting surprise its not clear to me that would benefit the ranger more than anyone else and archery style was mentioned so I assume no opportunity attack shenanigans in play.


We had 2 sessions so far. The thing is, enemies are being spotted before the fights begin, and then he can just deal with them before they get to him first. The module doesn’t have anything to deal with that and on the other hand I don’t wanna change what the book tells me to do... i really don’t know what to do about this guy because he’s making everyone mad with his combat abilities being too good, and I don’t want to nerf him because we all know that it’s not fun to take away from someone abilities...

Can you explain what you mean by 'he can just deal with them before they get to him'? I admit to not having read Descent into Avernus but I understand it starts in Baldurs Gate. I would have assumed the city adventure bits would be mostly inside/in streets which intrinsically limits the 'I sit 600ft away and open fire' tactic? If the issue is engaging from long range the answer is probably just as simple as making sure the enemies have a ranged attack of some sort too. Also remember they don't just need to stand there and take attacks. If your players are trying to hunt someone down and you engage from 600ft way, you've just given them a 600ft head start in escaping.

I do kind of feel you may be worrying too early here. In one of my games a lot of our damage comes from the ranger but if you took a snap shot of our last two sessions you'd think they did rubbish damage because the player was just happening to roll terribly.

[dragoeniex]

I've seen a good few DMs rule players can take either revised ranger or a Xanathar's subclass, but never both. This is because UA was an attempt to power adjust by altering the base, while the published material switched to addressing this in the subclass instead. Doubling up is overcorrecting, and while you're not there yet, I'd recommend having the player pick which they prefer to prevent more resentment later.

Allowing all humanoids as a favored enemy that grants damage boons is a bit silly; I would adjust that and have them pick X number of humanoid types instead- especially if your adventure is almost nothing but humanoid enemies. If it's not a constant, it's not as big a deal.

I played alongside a revised ranger (beast master) for over a year, so I've seen these effects in play. I will say the always-on perks to favored enemy are most frustrating early game, so it could peter out some, but it's worth considering pressure building now.

[Damon_Tor]

The revised ranger is certainly overturned, but not broken. There shouldn't be a major problem in balance without some other factors in play.

I'll note that official adventures tend to treat levels one and two almost as a tutorial, serving up extremely easy encounters designed to help new players learn the game and figure out their characters. I haven't read this particular adventure yet, but it wouldn't surprise me to see that was the case. If so, it makes perfect sense an experienced player would cut through those encounters like butter while new players were feeling left out.

So on one hand, just wait a few levels and the problems should fade as the challenge increases past level 3. On the other hand, having one guy tear up the encounters robs the rest of the party of the their chance to learn from their "tutorial".

So include something for the ranger to fight on his own each encounter, create a rival for him. Again, I haven't read the adventure so I'm not sure what would be appropriate, but try to come up with an NPC who could have reason to focus on the ranger in particular and add him to the encounters.

[sithlordnergal]

So, let me make sure I have this correct:

The ranger is dominating because they are able to spot their foes from a distance, and are sniping them? In a city setting?

How many enemies are there? Because in a city setting, they should only be about 30 away. I'd say add more mooks, the Ranger is good at single target dps but terrible at handling multiple enemies at that level.

Also, how are they identifying enemies to begin with?

[MaxWilson]

He does minimum of 9 damage when hitting his favored enemy (since bandits gate only has humanoids, so +2 from favored enemy +4 from his dex mod, and +2 archery and a minimum of 1 on the dice)

In addition to archery not adding to damage, as others have mentioned, Favored Enemy also does not increase damage until you hit level 20.

[sithlordnergal]

In addition to archery not adding to damage, as others have mentioned, Favored Enemy also does not increase damage until you hit level 20.

They're using the Revised Ranger, which does add +2 to damage rolls against Favored Enemies.

[Teaguethebean]

If he does this much good news the revised ranger is extremely powerful at lv2 and then it falls into line at around lv5 but yeah similarly to paladins; spells, fightingstyle, martial weapons, utility, and healing/extra damage. They are insanely good at lv2 compared to a fighter with action surge and second wind having to compare to spells, and favored enemy. But they fall back in line once tier 2 is hit.

[Keravath]

Looking at the revised ranger, the only difference between it and a regular ranger at level 2 is the +2 damage against favored enemies.

That is the only difference.

They have an 18 attack stat. Did you use rolled stats? What is everyone else’s stats, do they have an 18 also?

The ranger in this case would have +8 to hit (+2 proficiency, +2 archery, +4 dexterity) and +6 to damage (+4 dexterity, +2 against favored enemies). Against anyone but a favored enemy the damage is +4.

Compare this to a melee fighter or paladin with the dueling fighting style and 18 strength, they have +6 to hit and +6 damage against any target.

You also mention 27 damage in one case, this is impossible without a critical hit. A long bow is d8, zephyr strike adds d8 to ONE attack, which gives a maximum damage of 2d8+6 which is a maximum of 22 not 27. 27 on a critical hit isn’t surprising .. it is just a good die roll.

The bottom line is that there seems to be something else going on here. Maybe the player has been rolling well. Maybe they have the sharpshooter feat and you didn’t mention it (sharpshooter can really spike the damage even with the -5 to hit), maybe they have extra attacks with crossbow expert? The bottom line is that at level 2 the revised ranger only does TWO extra damage against favored enemies which is not enough to make the overshadow the rest of the party unless they have much lower stats. 12 or 14 in an attack stat will feel weak compared to 18 but it has nothing to do with the class.

Finally, you mention engaging at long range and dealing with opponents before they get close. Honestly, this should be quite rare. Almost every encounter I’ve played starts at less than 60’, occasionally 120’ and if indoors almost always 30’ or less. If the ranger is the only ranged character (others are melee) and for some reason he gets a few rounds to shoot before opponents reach melee range then the fault is not the character but the DM for how the encounters are set up. Dashing most opponents will cover 60’ .. or 30’ and dodge .. which should bring them into melee range in the next turn anyway.

[False God]

How are they spotting enemies? If it’s all humanoids and they’re just attacking anything that moves, throw some civilians at them, and have them deal with the consequences of shooting before asking questions.

After that, have some “civilians” get close enough to surprise them.

Edit: also the book expects you to do what you can to make the campaign better for your group. Don’t be afraid to change things up (like the above civilian scheme).

While I support this suggestion, it depends on the character too. If he's shooting first and asking questions later, he may continue to do even if they are civilians, expecting this "twist" that some civvies are gonna show up who are actually baddies and get the drop on them; especially if he's a CN/NN/*E of any sort. It may make the problem worse.

-----
Otherwise: this is 2nd level we're talking about here. There are clearly some math problems that have been addressed by others, but this adventure covers a lot of levels so you need to give the party, and the other players need to give themselves, more time. Depending on their class choices, their particular player skills, their individual character stats, it wont be surprising if some of them take a few levels to "get up to speed".

[CTurbo]

Revised Rangers are strong, but not broken. They are just front loaded though so it will level out in a few levels.


Archers in general in 5e are REALLY strong at low levels. That +2 to hit is HUGE when proficiency is also +2.


If he takes Sharpshooter at level 4, there will be another huge spike in power from him.


You can counter archers by setting up some close quarter combats.

[ad_hoc]

The game isn't balanced at very low levels. It doesn't really matter though as it is designed to get past those levels quickly. Level 1 and 2 are designed to only last 1 session each. Levels 3 and 4, 2 sessions each. Things should be fairly balanced at level 3 and sorted out by level 5.

In levels 1 and 2 the party is very vulnerable. Any combat encounters at these levels need to be easy.


You should provide specific examples of encounters and how you're running them. The difficulty of the game will vary widely based on how the DM is running the enemy creatures.


If he takes Sharpshooter at level 4, there will be another huge spike in power from him.


If you are using feats, you could also just not use specific ones like Sharpshooter.

[Tawmis]

I’m running Descent into Avernus to 5 people, one of which is playing the revised ranger which I foolishly allowed him to. They are all 2nd level and it got to a point where he kills everything before my melee players even get a chance to hit anything. He does minimum of 9 damage when hitting his favored enemy (since bandits gate only has humanoids, so +2 from favored enemy +4 from his dex mod, and +2 archery and a minimum of 1 on the dice)
Today he did 27 damage with zephyr strike, at level 2, and everyone yelled at him for being stupid strong and were mad they had no chance to help in the encounters I threw on them.
What can I do to balance things out without making everyone else get OP magic items and without giving them deadly encounters on a regular basis?

Have them encounter Magic Using characters. Create an Orc/Goblin/Kobold/Hobgoblin/Humanoid Shaman/Wizard.

Have said Magic Users gun for the threat that the others can't get to - the archer in the back.

[Sparky McDibben]

If you are using feats, you could also just not use specific ones like Sharpshooter.

Or just give it a fairly high level prerequisite, like 8th or 10th.

[Laserlight]

How much of this is the build, how much is the player?

Sometimes one player is just a lot more skilled, either because he knows his character's capabilities and the system and the rest of the group doesn't, or because he uses better tactics, or both.

I'm in that situation (when you're twice the age of the rest of the group, it's easy to be more experienced), so I usually run a support caster. The other players love it when I say "You're looking pretty beat up, aren't you? Here, use this" and replace their figure with a TRex.

[Osuniev]

Unless I'm mistaken, if you choose Humanoids as your favoured enemy, you only get to pick 2 races (my Ranger picked Goblins and Orcs), not every possible race.

[Lunali]

Unless I'm mistaken, if you choose Humanoids as your favoured enemy, you only get to pick 2 races (my Ranger picked Goblins and Orcs), not every possible race.

This is another reason the revised ranger is considered a bit broken, their list for favored enemy is beasts, fey, humanoids, monstrosities, or undead. The overwhelming majority pick humanoids. At 6th level they get to pick from aberrations, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fiends, or giants and get the damage boost increased to +4 versus both choices.

[Osuniev]

This is another reason the revised ranger is considered a bit broken, their list for favored enemy is beasts, fey, humanoids, monstrosities, or undead. The overwhelming majority pick humanoids. At 6th level they get to pick from aberrations, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fiends, or giants and get the damage boost increased to +4 versus both choices.

Oh. Well I am glad that I house-ruled most of the Revised Ranger in my two players rangers WITHOUT that options. That instantaneous detection of Undead is enough of a pain as it is.

[Benny89]

I think you and your players overreact. In my opinion this player just uses your (forgive me) sloppy style to his advantage. If you constantly allow him to spot enemies from huge distance so he can start shooting at them - of course it will make encounters easy, because that is what range character would do: spot enemy, get good position (high ground) and kill as many enemies as he can before they can get to him, reatreat to rest of the party when they get too close.

I don't see what player does wrong, but I see that you should plan encounters better.

Also Revised Ranger is not a problem. In my opinion (correct me if I am wrong) other players have bad builds or are novice players when it comes to 5e and they have no idea what they do.

I see it many times where even witohut powerbuild- one player that is experience in RPGs or games and has great tactical sense will often outshine rest of the party as, believe it or not, 90% of players have ZERO tactical sense when it comes to combat, ZERO. That one player usually plans whole party encounters later as rest would probably just charge in and waste fireball on 3 goblins.

Also- if you thinnk Revised Ranger is the proble, you should know that Variant Human Crossbow Expert Battlemaster would put that ranger to shame. Also any well build Hexblade at this level would also be problematic.

Revised Ranger is not broken, but your player seems to play well. Challenge him and party more.

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't let them take Gloom Stalker. That's a pretty harsh DM position to take. :smallfrown: One of the few things players have is the Agency to choose their class and sub class. You sure you want to stick with this bit of advice?

The game isn't balanced at very low levels.
This. Low level play is swingy as all get out.

[GreyBlack]

I’m running Descent into Avernus to 5 people, one of which is playing the revised ranger which I foolishly allowed him to. They are all 2nd level and it got to a point where he kills everything before my melee players even get a chance to hit anything. He does minimum of 9 damage when hitting his favored enemy (since bandits gate only has humanoids, so +2 from favored enemy +4 from his dex mod, and +2 archery and a minimum of 1 on the dice)
Today he did 27 damage with zephyr strike, at level 2, and everyone yelled at him for being stupid strong and were mad they had no chance to help in the encounters I threw on them.
What can I do to balance things out without making everyone else get OP magic items and without giving them deadly encounters on a regular basis?

Talk to the player and tell him that you messed up by allowing the revised ranger and that you're worried that you can't challenge both his character and the rest of the table at the same time. Would he consider changing the character to the regular Ranger, or would he consider rerolling the character and keeping all of the magic items he's found?

If this is a no go, then consider providing magic items tailored to the other players, or just using a larger number of monsters to compensate for the added power of the ranger.

[Kane0]

Wait a few sessions and levels before you make any drastic changes.

[GlenSmash!]

In 5 years of 5e I never expected a thread of "The Ranger is overshadowing my party".

Although reading the OP it seems like understanding the rules like Archery style might be key.

[darknite]

It sounds like, as a DM, the OP is not reviewing the applicable rules. The first thing to do when something seems too good to be true is to look it up. Read it over and let the player know your position on the RAW. Be fair but don't let them cajole you into giving them more than they should have.

Ranged combat in 5e is strong. While lots of range-based PCs take Sharpshooter, remember that creatures under fire will take cover. Use that. I universally give targets in melee with a friendly Partial Cover to handle the furball that close fighting can present a shooter. Also remember that basing a ranged character can have bad effects on their shooting (disadvantage unless Xbow expert) and moving often brings an AoO.

[da newt]

To decrease the archers effectiveness move the fight indoors or add weather if it's out in the open or provide cover (forest). Once the combat starts have one goon run up from behind the party.

I also really like the idea of adding in non-combatants - NPCs who are not bad guys. How can you tell who is who from 120' in the rain?

[Duff]

I don’t wanna change what the book tells me to do.

To me, this line makes it look like part of the issue is your lack of flexability as a GM. And that's not intended to be judgemental - maybe you're inexperienced (everyone is at the start), maybe you're too busy to re-work the module much (Good on you for making the effort to GM at all), maybe you're just not that creative (You are as you are - don't apologise for that)

But, it does mean doing things *to* the ranger are about making your problem into his problem.
So - You can ask the player to tone it down with character choices. "Hey [player] you've got a really effective character who's too effective on this adventure. Can you do me a favor and save your arrows a bit? Say keep it to one shot every round"
or
You can tell the player you need to nerf his character in some way. "Sorry [player], you're character is too effective on this adventure so until the party get to [next destination] the weather is against you - sight range is halved, rain means you have to keep your bow wrapped up and take 2 rounds to prepare before you can shoot and the strong winds give you -2 on hit roles"

You can also look at what the other players are doing - are they getting the most out of them? Are they going to get the chance to shine a little later in the adventure? Will the players wait that long?
You may need to skip a couple of encounters the ranger would demolish to get to bits of the adventure where others can shine.

If you're willing to tweak things a bit, as advised above, best thing is to put future encounters into places where they are not easily sniped from a distance - better hidden, in buildings, planted among civilians etc. A favorite is a guard post which is set into the ground a little but has a couple of dummies "Standing around" to attract that early shooting

[ad_hoc]

I think it would be great for the OP to type out one of these problematic encounters and how they ran it.

Would give a better idea of what is going on.

[Zerubbabel]

Just eliminate feats moving forward, and introduce stronger monsters or increase the number present at each encounter. You said he's using ranged, have them close in on him quicker?

[Sparky McDibben]

That's a pretty harsh DM position to take. :smallfrown: One of the few things players have is the Agency to choose their class and sub class. You sure you want to stick with this bit of advice.

Yes. It's just that: advice. OP, you can take it or leave it, but that ranger will be more of a headache if they take Gloom Stalker.

Some DMs ban healing spirit, others ban feats. If this ranger is already shtupping the your encounters with UA material, why would you let them add a very powerful subclass, too?

[Benny89]

Yes. It's just that: advice. OP, you can take it or leave it, but that ranger will be more of a headache if they take Gloom Stalker.

Some DMs ban healing spirit, others ban feats. If this ranger is already shtupping the your encounters with UA material, why would you let them add a very powerful subclass, too?

Yes, but you ban that BEFORE you start playing with people. If your player already got a character in his dead, planned his path and then you will "ow, btw I ban this subclass" then sorry that is just being an arse.

I have nothing against DMs banning races, subclasses, even builds. But only if I know about it before I create character and start playing.

[SirGraystone]

I don't think the race was named but i'm guessing human-variant with sharpshooter, 1d8 longbow +4 Dex +1d8 Zephyr +10 for sharpshooter +2 vs humanoids = an average of 25 damage. (from 18 to 32 possible damage). The problem is not the ranger class, it's sharpshooter (or GWM) at level 1.

Note that zephyr add damage only once by spell, not once by turn. For sharpshooter once the rest get to level 4 and get feats on their own it should get better.

[Keravath]

Unfortunately, we haven't heard back from the OP that I noticed.

In this case, the level 2 ranger, revised or not, is NOT overpowered. The ONLY difference between them and any other ranger is a +2 to damage against favored opponents. If this character is overshadowing the others in the party then there is some other explanation than the class selected.

1) Luck. They may just be rolling well making them feel more effective.
2) Feats. Sharpshooter in particular. The OP didn't mention it but a character with the Archery fighting style and sharpshooter at level 2 CAN feel overpowered especially against low AC opponents.

That's about it. Also, as pointed out, the ranger can not get 27 damage in a round using Zephyr Strike unless they also have the Sharpshooter feat or get a critical hit. Which makes the problem either Sharpshooter or just a perceived effectiveness due to good dice rolls.

My guess would be that the player has a variant human revised ranger and started with the Sharpshooter feat and took archery fighting style. The OP may not realize that the feat is not part of the revised ranger and so is blaming the class vs the feat but that is just a guess.

[greenstone]

…creatures under fire will take cover.
This is a striong tactic against archers — move out, shoot, and then move back into total cover. While behind total cover, the foe cannot be targeted by archery (or by anything that involves an attack roll). The Sharpshooter feat does not apply as it only allows you to ignore half and three-quarters cover.

The character needs to move to somewhere with line of sight.

Alternatively, the player can Ready a bowshot for when the foe moves into view. This is good for the foe, because features that apply on the character's turn (in particular, Extra Attack, Foe Slayer, Stalker's Flurry, Planar Warrior, Horde Breaker) do not apply.