venting - how to deal with a character who bails on the party

[da newt]

To start I'll vent/rant for a bit before the request for advice/input. (hopefully cathartic)

Last nigh's Adv League game spun me up - it's my second night playing tier 2 for the first time, new campaign, new people. We are a fairly green party with wiz 5, paladin 5, cleric 6, fighter 6, rogue 7, fighter 9, assassin 10. After the first encounter it becomes obvious a couple of the folks are struggling with D&D basic mechanics, rules, math, etc. At the first break the GM and pali are talking about something and it triggers something because it turns out the pali is illegal and he's sent packing (I'm not sure of specifics). So we are down 1.

As we play on it becomes frustrating as the fighter 9 is struggling with basics, but he's trying. We have some issues with some of the players not paying attention, dragging things down, etc. The GM is getting frustrated too. As we get into the boss fight (adult black dragon w/ troll half dragon buddy) we try to surprise but the fighter 9 runs right up to the troll non-stealth while the rest of us try to get into position for surprise attack (because he doesn't get how surprise works). After a couple rounds it isn't going well (wiz is unconscious, cleric was down but just got a healing potion), Dragon has an opportunity to breath weapon most of us again but GM rolls fate and we luck out, and then our strongest character (assassin) goes full dash GTFO with no warning or discussion, just bails on the party crowing about how fast tabaxi are. In retrospect, this move is not that surprising as the assassin has been consistently super selfish and condescending (in game and out) while also paying much more attention to their laptop than our game.

The rest of us struggle to retreat, thanks to a Hail Mary Banish spell and a crap saving throw by the dragon, we still barely manage to disengage from the troll, banish concentration is broken, and we run.

The lumbering ignorant fighter I'm OK with - frustrating, but he was trying and well meaning. The one who spooled me up is the assassin who bailed without so much as a 'hey guys we should probably get out of here.' With two of our party down and couple way down on HP and in melee, they left all of us to die.

I'm thinking that if my character and the assassin show up at the same adventure again, it would be very appropriate for my guy to call them out for their behavior and refuse to go into harm's way with someone they know they can't count on to be a team player. Thoughts?

[Zhorn]

Self preservation is a legitimate strategy. It can be frustrating to be the one bailed on, but a party that doesn't have any long-standing ties is usually comprised of individuals ultimately looking out for themselves.
Is the assassin in the wrong to ensure their survival in a situation that was looking dicey? Not really. It's a jerk move character-wise, but a reasonable one to make player-wise.
Is you character in the right to hold a grudge against the assassin? This is also a reasonable course of action. You character was betrayed and the assassin should expect some kind of consequence for their actions.
Should you as a player hold a grudge against the assassin's player? No, not in the slightest. Be clear with the player that this is strictly a beef between characters, not players. If you cannot do that, then it's best to not try and make an in-character drama out of it. If you as a player are choosing to not run your character at the same table as them, that's one thing. But if you in any way try to block that player from sitting at a table that you are not the DM of; that's when you're crossing a serious line.

[MoiMagnus]

If you're having more frustration than fun in a game, then that game is probably not worth your time.
This might include playing with peoples that do not share the same expectation of how much team play there should be in an AL game.

(AL is kind of a very strange way of playing RPG: since the DM does not have the right to handwave your death away, or give you a high level character in replacement. And since you actually have something to lose, then some peoples will consider that protecting their character is worth making the session unfun for others.)

Lastly, I will recall an important point:
Problems between players should be resolved between players, not in the game through character drama.
Problems between characters should be resolved between characters, with some kind of friendly agreement between the players so that it does not degenerate into a problem between players.
But don't let negative emotions bleed between characters and players.

[Corran]

I'm thinking that if my character and the assassin show up at the same adventure again, it would be very appropriate for my guy to call them out for their behavior and refuse to go into harm's way with someone they know they can't count on to be a team player. Thoughts?
That's fair enough. Personally, I would hope more to avoid playing again with the fighter. You cannot count on the assassin to save you when you are in danger, and you cannot count on the fighter to not do anything stupid that will get you killed. Out of the two, I find the second to be worse and more annoying.

[da newt]

Thanks for the counsel and I appreciate and understand the underlying themes. This is a little weird because I don't know the people so it is tough to tell if they are roll playing (in which case I can totally respect it - a self-centered assassin with a strong self-preservation instinct tracks) or if they are acting true to themselves.

The fighter's intentions were good - I find it easier to forgive mistakes and ignorance than intentional decisions to act in such a way to put the rest of the party at risk for the good of one character. When you join a party there is an implicit pact to act for the good of the whole. The fighter stayed to the bitter end doing his best to meat shield the party's retreat.

I also believe that too often no one calls out the schmucks when they act like schmucks which reinforces their crap behavior. Too many folks are reluctant to engage which allows the schmucks to run amok resulting in a society dominated by self-centered bullies.

[loki_ragnarock]

When you join a party there is an implicit pact to act for the good of the whole. The fighter stayed to the bitter end doing his best to meat shield the party's retreat.

I'm sure from his perspective, the Assassin looked at the party as the Titanic hitting an iceberg and took to the lifeboats.

I have to admit that gloating all the way is a **** player move.

[Tawmis]

Someone said it before in this topic - if you're getting frustrated in game, it's already not worth it.

The Paladin being dismissed for not being AL stats... OK, fine.
DM should take into account that the party (and adventure) was set up for a specific number of people; and maybe tapered down the last fight. Black Dragon, sure, but drop the troll buddy.
People not paying attention, seems to be a problem with AL games. A lot of people don't know one another, so there's no "investment" in being engaged. It's like a game of MONOPOLY. You take your turn and just do whatever, until it's your turn again, with no regard to what's happening to everyone else.
If this was an actual group of friends, folks would probably be more inclined to listening to what everyone is doing, as well as the story.
The Assassin bailing on the party when things looked bad; I would never do it, myself, but I can easily see someone else doing - again, especially if there's no "investment" in fellow party members. Chances are next game, said assassin is going to be in another game. If he perishes, then he's rolling up a new character. Being an assassin, his alignment and self preservation may also play a part in their own desire for survivability. The mentioning of tabaxi speed may not have been intentional bragging (or it may have?), but it could have simply been a verbal assurance (to the DM and players) about their speed in this situation that they're making a hasty exit.

[Zuras]

Bailing is legit. It’s also legit for the rest of the party to not help him, not listen to him and otherwise ignore his existence.


The problem is most AL players don’t want to role-play every single party as a dysfunctional band of misfits held together by greed and loyalties as solid as wet tissue paper.

As DM, I would call out the assassin’s player for their behavior, because playing selfish, cowardly characters isn’t conducive to enjoyable pick up games, period.

Sadly, while not the norm for AL, dysfunctional parties happen periodically. I play and DM AL regularly, and I actually have several Min-Maxed characters created for such situations.

In the end it’s a community/perspective thing. There are several players in my local community who have earned my disdain for poor play getting my characters killed, or nearly so. Now when I play an adventure with them I take it as a challenge to survive the adventure and keep the newer players alive, rather than to succeed at any of the objectives.

[Sigreid]

Eh, my understanding is that in AL he would be unlikely to be able to be rezed if killed. 10th level is a significant investment and may be his highest. Not sure I can blame him for not wanting his character to die there. Other behavior aside.

[GlenSmash!]

AL is an odd bag.

This is a character the Assassin's player has taken from game to game and invested a lot of time with, and unlike a home game if the PC dies he'd have to start over instead of showing up at the next session with a leveled PC.

So I think you are going to see more of this, not less.

He's what I would do: balance out the players undesirable behavior with your behavior. Continue to play selflessly. if the Rogue player is not going to warn the party before retreating, be the guy that does.

Be friendly, and encourage players who struggle like you already are. And you know what, pat yourself on the back and take satisfaction in doing so.

[Zuras]

Eh, my understanding is that in AL he would be unlikely to be able to be rezed if killed. 10th level is a significant investment and may be his highest. Not sure I can blame him for not wanting his character to die there. Other behavior aside.

At most under current AL rules you give up a magic item if you die.

In my opinion a CR 7 dragon and CR 5 Troll shouldn’t be sending a 10th level character running. A 9th or 10th level combat oriented PC should be able to go toe to toe with a young black dragon for at least 3 rounds solo.

I might be overly judgmental here, though, given that I’m the sort of player who frequents online forums for build advice and has multiple AL characters.

[Tawmis]

At most under current AL rules you give up a magic item if you die.
In my opinion a CR 7 dragon and CR 5 Troll shouldn’t be sending a 10th level character running. A 9th or 10th level combat oriented PC should be able to go toe to toe with a young black dragon for at least 3 rounds solo.
I might be overly judgmental here, though, given that I’m the sort of player who frequents online forums for build advice and has multiple AL characters.

I think it all depends. If most of the party is down (including the cleric), a Black Dragon + Troll can be troublesome.

With a Young Black Dragon -
Multiattack. The dragon makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d10 + 4) piercing damage plus 4 (1d8) acid damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Acid Breath (Recharge 5–6). The dragon exhales acid in a 30*-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 14 Dexterity saving throw, taking 49 (11d8) acid damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

That's a pretty high "to hit" (+7, hitting an assassin might not be too difficult, depending on their AC).
And making it multiattack, that means three swings to try to hit one target with +7.

Add to it, the troll essentially has the same attack options:
Multiattack. The troll makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

With +7 to hit and multiattack.

That's 6 swings potentially coming your way at +7 each time.

Add the troll's regeneration, unless the Assassin has fire or something to stop the troll's regeneration; it can get to be pretty messy.

And the Assassin would have - I am guessing - around 45-55 hit points.

[HappyDaze]

Without getting into the rest, I find it refreshing to see a PC choosing to flee.

[Zhorn]

Without getting into the rest, I find it refreshing to see a PC choosing to flee.

It is the more realistic response that many players need to consider more often. Too often players are locked into that "fight to the death" mindset, thinking either they are invincible, or will only every be up against encounters where they are MEANT to win.
Sometimes encounters are like dark souls. They 'can' be won, but the odds are stacked highly against you, and falling back when things start going south is the smartest play you can make.

I know I'd be far more inclined to introduce the big bad to the party earlier in the campaigns if I could reasonably trust the players to not Leeroy Jenkins a lich at level 3.

[HappyDaze]

Tactical retreat in good order is one thing. Routing piecemeal is another.

Unfortunately a all too common lack of teamwork and planning (especially IMX in official play) and modern D&D's individual turn based initiative system make the latter far more common, if fleeing occurs at all.

It's also because may PCs are slow compared to their opponents. This was more common in older versions where armor often reduced your speed significantly (and heavier armors were more common too), but it still shows up.

[HappyDaze]

Go old school and drop treasure / food to distract pursuing enemies?

That's what the other party members with a movement rate lower than yours are for... (as the OP discovered)

[Zhorn]

That's what the other party members with a movement rate lower than yours are for... (as the OP discovered)
"I don't need to outrun the owlbear. I just need to outrun my party"

[HappyDaze]

"I don't need to outrun the owlbear. I just need to outrun my party"
And if you are one of the slower members, then go ahead and take a chance turning down a different passage than the rest of the grouo. Splitting the party adds to the fun of routing!

[Dungeon-noob]

@Zuras @Tawmis
The OP specified Adult black dragon, not young, and the troll is half dragon, making him stronger then default too. Not to mention making it resistant, if not outright removing the regen negation, to acid, if it is half black, like its combat buddy.

As for how to deal with it, it is hard. The fighter you can deal with most by acting as adviser/confidant, "What doyou want to do/know and how can i help." It's a lot easier and more fun to play when someone else helps remove all the rules obstructions. The rogue? Call it out OOC, i'd say, because this is an OOC issue first. There can be games where that kind of behaviour can work, and if AL works like the previous replies said AL might cause that behaviour whether the players are okay with it or not, but unless it is specifically adressed beforehand, at start of session at least, all players should try to make the party work. So next time you play in AL, i'd advice quickly going over some party basics OOC, quoting this exact session when asked for a reason. Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, there won't be surprises, and the DM knows what he's working with.

[da newt]

"The OP specified Adult black dragon, not young, and the troll is half dragon, making him stronger then default too. Not to mention making it resistant, if not outright removing the regen negation, to acid, if it is half black, like its combat buddy." - This is correct. I don't know the troll-dragon's stats but he was described as 'massive' and had a breath weapon of his own. In addition the atmosphere in the room was poisoned so every round included a CON save or like 6-12 hp damage.

WRT the character who bailed and made no attempt to warn the party, heal the guys who were down, or help us retreat, if they show up for the next session, I plan to roll play the very realistic WTF conversation and ask the assassin to convince us why we should allow them to be part of our party - I'll give them an opportunity to make their case - why should we trust you going forward, and if they do it well-ish, I'll let bygones be bygones - but also follow up with a 'don't ever do that again'.

As has been mentioned, I agree that too often we get trapped into thinking the only option is to stand toe to toe until one side is dead (and the death saving throws etc make going to zero hitpoints have unrealistically minor consequences) - retreating is often a good/valid tactic, but you retreat as a group helping each other.

[HappyDaze]

"The OP specified Adult black dragon, not young, and the troll is half dragon, making him stronger then default too. Not to mention making it resistant, if not outright removing the regen negation, to acid, if it is half black, like its combat buddy." - This is correct. I don't know the troll-dragon's stats but he was described as 'massive' and had a breath weapon of his own. In addition the atmosphere in the room was poisoned so every round included a CON save or like 6-12 hp damage.

WRT the character who bailed and made no attempt to warn the party, heal the guys who were down, or help us retreat, if they show up for the next session, I plan to roll play the very realistic WTF conversation and ask the assassin to convince us why we should allow them to be part of our party - I'll give them an opportunity to make their case - why should we trust you going forward, and if they do it well-ish, I'll let bygones be bygones - but also follow up with a 'don't ever do that again'.

As has been mentioned, I agree that too often we get trapped into thinking the only option is to stand toe to toe until one side is dead (and the death saving throws etc make going to zero hitpoints have unrealistically minor consequences) - retreating is often a good/valid tactic, but you retreat as a group helping each other.

PvP isn't allowed in AdvLegue, right? So the talk will be entirely toothless in-character, and don't push the player too hard or he might complain that you're making him feel threatened. You really can't win this one by being direct. Instead, you'll likely need to be passive-aggressive and just do nothing to aid his character (and do everything you can to ignore him). Sad really...

[Zuras]

"The OP specified Adult black dragon, not young, and the troll is half dragon, making him stronger then default too. Not to mention making it resistant, if not outright removing the regen negation, to acid, if it is half black, like its combat buddy." - This is correct. I don't know the troll-dragon's stats but he was described as 'massive' and had a breath weapon of his own. In addition the atmosphere in the room was poisoned so every round included a CON save or like 6-12 hp damage.

WRT the character who bailed and made no attempt to warn the party, heal the guys who were down, or help us retreat, if they show up for the next session, I plan to roll play the very realistic WTF conversation and ask the assassin to convince us why we should allow them to be part of our party - I'll give them an opportunity to make their case - why should we trust you going forward, and if they do it well-ish, I'll let bygones be bygones - but also follow up with a 'don't ever do that again'.

As has been mentioned, I agree that too often we get trapped into thinking the only option is to stand toe to toe until one side is dead (and the death saving throws etc make going to zero hitpoints have unrealistically minor consequences) - retreating is often a good/valid tactic, but you retreat as a group helping each other.


If you guys were dealing with an Adult Black Dragon, that’s literally double the CR of a young one. That’s not a minor tweak to the difficulty, that’s straight up having the DM try to murder you with a CR 14 creature when the encounter calls for a CR 7 one.

I have no issue with retreating when things have gone awry, I just expect players to retreat like Hicks— “Marines, we are LEAVING!”, not Hudson— “Game Over, man, Game Over!”

If you have a ridiculous speed, there’s no reason you can’t grab an unconscious ally and dash away. The last couple of times that happened to me the unconscious PCs were small, so it wasn’t too hard to carry them away, but saying “we can’t win this, I’m taking unconscious Joe and getting out” is taken much better than “see ya, convenient distractions!”

[darknite]

PvP isn't allowed in AdvLegue, right? So the talk will be entirely toothless in-character, and don't push the player too hard or he might complain that you're making him feel threatened. You really can't win this one by being direct. Instead, you'll likely need to be passive-aggressive and just do nothing to aid his character (and do everything you can to ignore him). Sad really...

Exactly. Don't compound the problem. Talk to your local AL admin and let them know what happened, so they're aware that the player may be an issue to keep an eye on. Beyond that, avoid the same table with that player if you're holding a grudge.

As for bailing, one problem I see in most parties in D&D is that no one ever discusses a plan for disengaging from a fight. While the DM is there to provide a fun game and shouldn't be out for blood, sometimes the cookie crumbles in a way that the PCs are in serious peril. It should be a well known occupational hazard for adventurers that you might not come back.

I've DM'd dozens of games over the past 5 years. You get all kinds of players at your table. Some are awesome and some are playing public games because they aren't invited to private ones. Given the portability of AL the 'party' is far more frangible than the typical D&D home game. There are many instances where you have no idea what the party composition will be for a given game and you may well be playing with people you've never met before.

As such you need to plan accordingly. Someone previously mentioned that it takes a lot of time and effort to get a 10th level player. Some people are willing to lay that investment on the line when the going gets tough to play and play heroically, no matter the odds. A few will cut and run. I've found the heroes to be in the vast majority but there are some stinkers out there. Chalk this up to be a learning experience and keep on playing. You'll find that the good outweighs the bad by a large margin.

[KorvinStarmast]

I know I'd be far more inclined to introduce the big bad to the party earlier in the campaigns if I could reasonably trust the players to not Leeroy Jenkins a lich at level 3. But that can be fun also. A lich needs minions. :smallbiggrin: Geas works wonders on getting people to adjust their attitude ...
That’s not a minor tweak to the difficulty, that’s straight up having the DM try to murder you with a CR 14 creature when the encounter calls for a CR 7 one. Which suggests that the encounter was intended to be one where the party withdraws and figures out a way to deal with an over the top enemy.

I have no issue with retreating when things have gone awry, I just expect players to retreat like Hicks— “Marines, we are LEAVING!”, not Hudson “Game Over, man, Game Over!” Well said.

As for bailing, one problem I see in most parties in D&D is that no one ever discusses a plan for disengaging from a fight. While the DM is there to provide a fun game and shouldn't be out for blood, sometimes the cookie crumbles in a way that the PCs are in serious peril. It should be a well known occupational hazard for adventurers that you might not come back. And that's how I fell in love with fog cloud. A decent way to help break contact ...

I've DM'd dozens of games over the past 5 years. That right there is worthy of applause.

Some are awesome and some are playing public games because they aren't invited to private ones.
Given the portability of AL the 'party' is far more frangible than the typical D&D home game.
There are many instances where you have no idea what the party composition will be for a given game and you may well be playing with people you've never met before. As such you need to plan accordingly. Which means that players have to talk to each other even if they don't know each other.

[NaughtyTiger]

What got me out of the OP's post is that a player can get to 9th level in AL (minimum 20 games) and not handle the basics.
the fighter is the toon that would annoy me the most.


DM removes a toon/player (rather than fix the toon) and doesn't adjust the CR for the smaller party.

[Tawmis]

What got me out of the OP's post is that a player can get to 9th level in AL (minimum 20 games) and not handle the basics.


Fake it till you make it.

I think AL typically starts at Level 3? I can't remember. I've only ever tried it once.
So "cruising" by as a fighter can be pretty easy if you have a good party (Cleric, especially) that keeps you alive.


Or he simply has no magic items, because he dies and comes back next game, sacrificing a magic item. :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

and then our strongest character (assassin) goes full dash GTFO with no warning or discussion, just bails on the party crowing about how fast tabaxi are. In retrospect, this move is not that surprising as the assassin has been consistently super selfish and condescending (in game and out) while also paying much more attention to their laptop than our game.

The rest of us struggle to retreat, thanks to a Hail Mary Banish spell and a crap saving throw by the dragon, we still barely manage to disengage from the troll, banish concentration is broken, and we run.
nice job getting out of there.
Report the player to the AL admins. (The DM should have called them out on that "My PC before my party" rudeness). This person demonstrated all of the traits of a toxic player. The only way to get rid of toxic players in AL is to report them. Over time, if enough people know who the toxic players are, they can be handled
But it takes getting the word out.

[Quietus]

What got me out of the OP's post is that a player can get to 9th level in AL (minimum 20 games) and not handle the basics.
the fighter is the toon that would annoy me the most.


DM removes a toon/player (rather than fix the toon) and doesn't adjust the CR for the smaller party.

Could be as few as eight sessions, with current season 9 rules. If the DM is pushing hard enough that they're finishing "an adventure" each session.

In AL, I play with some people who are just atrocious when it comes to the rules. I am the type of person who really likes to keep hard to the rules, so when I have to explain half the things to the DM, or I have to remind the rogue to use their sneak attack, it really irks me. But some people just don't care about the rules, they want to roll dice and hang out. That's fine, if everyone is on board. And if someone is just new or willing to learn, that's not such an egregious issue that I wouldn't be willing to overlook it.

[Zuras]

If you guys were dealing with an Adult Black Dragon, that’s literally double the CR of a young one. That’s not a minor tweak to the difficulty, that’s straight up having the DM try to murder you with a CR 14 creature when the encounter calls for a CR 7 one.



Which suggests that the encounter was intended to be one where the party withdraws and figures out a way to deal with an over the top enemy.


Assuming the adventure was DDEX 1-12, which seems certain given the description, the module as written isn’t expecting you to fight a CR 14 dragon.

Don’t want to give spoilers, but my copy of the module doesn’t even have an Adult Black Dragon stat block as an option.

[darknite]

Report the player to the AL admins. (The DM should have called them out on that "My PC before my party" rudeness). ... But it takes getting the word out.

The DMs do have recourse to use the Renown Suspension for "intentionally hindering the group" if they think it's warranted. It's not something you want to do often, but it's there.

In this case you might ask the player, "Are you certain you want to pull back? The rest of the party is still fighting and asking for your help. Your renown will likely suffer from this decision, but it's yours to make."

Let them know what that means (no access to Renown benefits on next adventure), too. I would only do this if it was a known issue with the player or they were persistent in not contributing throughout a game to a harmful degree.

[Sigreid]

You guys are harsh. Setting aside any other bad behavior, several people seem to be advocating punishing players for simply trying to survive a no win situation.

[darknite]

You guys are harsh. Setting aside any other bad behavior, several people seem to be advocating punishing players for simply trying to survive a no win situation.

I agree in principle. For me it's more about handling a player who displays asocial behavior or an antithetical approach to the game over time to make sure the greater community isn't harmed by the actions of one bad egg. I've seen players who have had their PCs run and the table totally gets it - they may not be happy with it but they understand, given the circumstances.

[Sigreid]

I agree in principle. For me it's more about handling a player who displays asocial behavior or an antithetical approach to the game over time to make sure the greater community isn't harmed by the actions of one bad egg. I've seen players who have had their PCs run and the table totally gets it - they may not be happy with it but they understand, given the circumstances.

I just see running from a dragon and his henchman very differently that say barring the door behind me with the party trapped inside with the dragon and his henchmen. Running away when you not only can't win but probably have no particularly close ties to the other characters doesn't sound like a great sin to me.

I'm leaving the other behavior out because I wasnt there and don't know if the description is biased because of the feelings of abandonment.

[da newt]

Dragon was described as huge and adult (flying w/ 20 kobolds on its back), but looking through the monster manual, I'm guessing it was actually 'young' as it didn't do any of the stuff an adult can do that a young can't. Yes DDEX 1-12.


I have no qualms with a character trying to survive (especially an assassin) UNLESS its at the expense of the rest of your party with zero consideration for the fate of the rest of the team.

When the gnome wizard is down 10' from you and you've been bragging about how you have 50 healing potions you don't run without force feeding the gnome a HP and dragging his butt out of the room and yelling "retreat!"

Self preservation at the expense of the rest of your party is crap. Crap actions with zero accountability rewards/reinforces crap behaviors. When your toddler throws a hissy fit at the store and you give them a candy to quiet them down you teach the toddler that a hissy fit results in a reward and you set that kid on the path to becoming a self centered little sh!t of a person.

(but I may be biased as I abhor selfish behavior/people and believe that accountability is needed to teach folks to be decent humans - which is why I'm venting here rather than starting crap at the game)

[Zuras]

I just see running from a dragon and his henchman very differently that say barring the door behind me with the party trapped inside with the dragon and his henchmen. Running away when you not only can't win but probably have no particularly close ties to the other characters doesn't sound like a great sin to me.

I'm leaving the other behavior out because I wasnt there and don't know if the description is biased because of the feelings of abandonment.

As a regular AL player, to me the great sin the fleeing player is committing is breaking the suspension of disbelief that everyone else invested in when they sat down to play D&D with strangers.

It’s not any different from the player who wants to spend the whole adventure robbing the townsfolk instead of accomplishing the objective.

There’s nothing wrong with that style of play in principle, it just doesn’t work for pick-up games.

[blackjack50]

To start I'll vent/rant for a bit before the request for advice/input. (hopefully cathartic)

Last nigh's Adv League game spun me up - it's my second night playing tier 2 for the first time, new campaign, new people. We are a fairly green party with wiz 5, paladin 5, cleric 6, fighter 6, rogue 7, fighter 9, assassin 10. After the first encounter it becomes obvious a couple of the folks are struggling with D&D basic mechanics, rules, math, etc. At the first break the GM and pali are talking about something and it triggers something because it turns out the pali is illegal and he's sent packing (I'm not sure of specifics). So we are down 1.

As we play on it becomes frustrating as the fighter 9 is struggling with basics, but he's trying. We have some issues with some of the players not paying attention, dragging things down, etc. The GM is getting frustrated too. As we get into the boss fight (adult black dragon w/ troll half dragon buddy) we try to surprise but the fighter 9 runs right up to the troll non-stealth while the rest of us try to get into position for surprise attack (because he doesn't get how surprise works). After a couple rounds it isn't going well (wiz is unconscious, cleric was down but just got a healing potion), Dragon has an opportunity to breath weapon most of us again but GM rolls fate and we luck out, and then our strongest character (assassin) goes full dash GTFO with no warning or discussion, just bails on the party crowing about how fast tabaxi are. In retrospect, this move is not that surprising as the assassin has been consistently super selfish and condescending (in game and out) while also paying much more attention to their laptop than our game.

The rest of us struggle to retreat, thanks to a Hail Mary Banish spell and a crap saving throw by the dragon, we still barely manage to disengage from the troll, banish concentration is broken, and we run.

The lumbering ignorant fighter I'm OK with - frustrating, but he was trying and well meaning. The one who spooled me up is the assassin who bailed without so much as a 'hey guys we should probably get out of here.' With two of our party down and couple way down on HP and in melee, they left all of us to die.

I'm thinking that if my character and the assassin show up at the same adventure again, it would be very appropriate for my guy to call them out for their behavior and refuse to go into harm's way with someone they know they can't count on to be a team player. Thoughts?

What is your alignment? Not your character. You? Lol. Personally? I’d set them up to die if I ever had to play with them again. At the very least play it so that not only is there no trust, but that you actively have no concern for the well being of that character and are totally willing to sacrifice them for the greater good...or just to keep yourself from inconvenience.

[KorvinStarmast]

Assuming the adventure was DDEX 1-12, which seems certain given the description, the module as written isn’t expecting you to fight a CR 14 dragon. Ah, thanks.

Don’t want to give spoilers, but my copy of the module doesn’t even have an Adult Black Dragon stat block as an option. Which makes one wonder at the whole situation: what was the DM up to?

You guys are harsh. Setting aside any other bad behavior, several people seem to be advocating punishing players for simply trying to survive a no win situation. I admit to having a strong reaction to the report of "was paying more attention to own laptop/tablet than to the game."

Maybe that kind of rudeness is put up with more these days by people who are not me.

[darknite]

As I recall in that mod, the dragon had a particular motivation in a mucho tangential direction that doesn't involve killing adventurers all that much.

[RSP]

I don’t agree with the idea the Assassin (or the Player) was the one in the wrong here.

Based on the OP, the Fighter ruined the chance for a surprise and seemed to a) not know some rules of the game, b) not know how to play their own character, and c) not be able to function in a group properly.

I’ve never played AL before, but it sounds like an investment in a character much more than in a group.

In this situation, it sounds like 5/6 players understood a plan of setting up and surprising the enemy. For whatever reason, that one other player, the Fighter, was incapable of understanding that (or didn’t care to allow that to happen). Whether you understand the rules of 5e or not, running in and attacking when everyone else is preparing, isn’t working with the group: it’s actively working against it.

That battle probably goes completely different if that player hadn’t decided to ruin what the group was doing. Would the Cleric and Wizard be down if they had been able to properly position and prepare fully (maybe pre-casting some spells)? Sounds like the dragon got a chance to use its breath weapon. Would everyone have been lined up? Would the Troll be alive had the Assassin and Fighter been able to surprise it and focus-fire it down, while the Cleric and Wiz were in position to cast without being in harms way?

I’d be pretty pissed with that Fighter’s player for ruining what everyone else was trying to do; not the Assassin’s player. The Assassin’s player is probably thinking what I am: this guy running the Fighter just decided for the group that combat would start and mucked everything up; causing the combat to go south and, as such, decided it wasn’t worth losing his investment in the Assassin to save a PC who can’t even respect what the rest of the party is trying to do.

That, to me, is a much greater violation of the unwritten rules of a party than self preservation is.

[Sigreid]

Ah, thanks.
Which makes one wonder at the whole situation: what was the DM up to?
I admit to having a strong reaction to the report of "was paying more attention to own laptop/tablet than to the game."

Maybe that kind of rudeness is put up with more these days by people who are not me.
I left the other aspects out because I dont k how how pervasive the behavior was or how sensitive the op was to it. That's not to poke at the op, I just dont know either.

[Zuras]

At most under current AL rules you give up a magic item if you die.

In my opinion a CR 7 dragon and CR 5 Troll shouldn’t be sending a 10th level character running. A 9th or 10th level combat oriented PC should be able to go toe to toe with a young black dragon for at least 3 rounds solo.

I might be overly judgmental here, though, given that I’m the sort of player who frequents online forums for build advice and has multiple AL characters.


I think it all depends. If most of the party is down (including the cleric), a Black Dragon + Troll can be troublesome.

With a Young Black Dragon -
Multiattack. The dragon makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d10 + 4) piercing damage plus 4 (1d8) acid damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Acid Breath (Recharge 5–6). The dragon exhales acid in a 30*-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 14 Dexterity saving throw, taking 49 (11d8) acid damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

That's a pretty high "to hit" (+7, hitting an assassin might not be too difficult, depending on their AC).
And making it multiattack, that means three swings to try to hit one target with +7.

Add to it, the troll essentially has the same attack options:
Multiattack. The troll makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

With +7 to hit and multiattack.

That's 6 swings potentially coming your way at +7 each time.

Add the troll's regeneration, unless the Assassin has fire or something to stop the troll's regeneration; it can get to be pretty messy.

And the Assassin would have - I am guessing - around 45-55 hit points.

The assassin should have around 73 hp, unless they dumped Con. They should have taken at most half damage from the breath weapons, likely none with a +7 or better vs a DC 14 Dex save. If they could separate them, the assassin should be able to survive several rounds against a single opponent, using Uncanny Dodge.

Maybe there wasn’t much they could do, but if so it’s because single class Rogues don’t have much nova potential. I have seen a 9th level Ranger take down a Young Green Dragon solo, and play with folks who intentionally seek out the Beast of Talos, though, so my perceptions are probably warped.

[blackjack50]

I don’t agree with the idea the Assassin (or the Player) was the one in the wrong here.

Based on the OP, the Fighter ruined the chance for a surprise and seemed to a) not know some rules of the game, b) not know how to play their own character, and c) not be able to function in a group properly.

I’ve never played AL before, but it sounds like an investment in a character much more than in a group.

In this situation, it sounds like 5/6 players understood a plan of setting up and surprising the enemy. For whatever reason, that one other player, the Fighter, was incapable of understanding that (or didn’t care to allow that to happen). Whether you understand the rules of 5e or not, running in and attacking when everyone else is preparing, isn’t working with the group: it’s actively working against it.

That battle probably goes completely different if that player hadn’t decided to ruin what the group was doing. Would the Cleric and Wizard be down if they had been able to properly position and prepare fully (maybe pre-casting some spells)? Sounds like the dragon got a chance to use its breath weapon. Would everyone have been lined up? Would the Troll be alive had the Assassin and Fighter been able to surprise it and focus-fire it down, while the Cleric and Wiz were in position to cast without being in harms way?

I’d be pretty pissed with that Fighter’s player for ruining what everyone else was trying to do; not the Assassin’s player. The Assassin’s player is probably thinking what I am: this guy running the Fighter just decided for the group that combat would start and mucked everything up; causing the combat to go south and, as such, decided it wasn’t worth losing his investment in the Assassin to save a PC who can’t even respect what the rest of the party is trying to do.

That, to me, is a much greater violation of the unwritten rules of a party than self preservation is.

This is an accurate assessment of how one should feel towards that guy. But being fair in that it may behoove one to ask about the fighter and why he didn’t follow the plan. Was it inexperience? I can forgive that. But a guy who gtfos on combat after being on his laptop too much? I think the player was more the issue than his actions in game.

[Galithar]

Don't forget that the Assassin's player was probably furious about the loss of surprise due to player idiocy. Assassin's get bonuses against surprised foes that are not insignificant. They likely saw this as an encounter that COULD have been easy, but instead was turned into an almost no win scenario and didn't want to risk their AL character.

Did they communicate properly about this? No. But aren't table top gamers known for their abundant social skills?

[MaXenzie]

If I was an Assassin, and dedicated to getting a surprise round on something so I can melt it, and told the entire party this-

And the Fighter completely ruins that-

Yeah I'd bail too. And I'd be more surprised if the rest of the party didn't bail with me. An Assassin critical can deal stupid damage, missing out on it should've been motivation enough to tell you all to retreat and try again another day.

[blackjack50]

If I was an Assassin, and dedicated to getting a surprise round on something so I can melt it, and told the entire party this-

And the Fighter completely ruins that-

Yeah I'd bail too. And I'd be more surprised if the rest of the party didn't bail with me. An Assassin critical can deal stupid damage, missing out on it should've been motivation enough to tell you all to retreat and try again another day.

But would you be rude about it? I maintain it was the person that was the issue here...and not the action.

[BW022]

Thoughts?

It is Adventure League... a public game, random people, and you have little control over it.

I would start by treating it as a throw-away game. Use it to meet people, get into a home game, and have the occasional "meaningless" session. Try finding or organizing another group. Online, notices, inviting people at the group, etc. Home games have a much different feel, commitment, style, etc. than AL games.

While you are playing AL games, either because you can't get a home campaign going or just want to make your AL games less frustrating for yourself...

1. Talk to the DM and players. If you had a rough time, probably they did also. Ask them their feelings, what they liked, and what they want in the next game. If you aren't happy... they might not be also. Sometimes just talking helps players feel better, develop better friendships, care more, etc. Select different modules. Help the DM -- paperwork, buy them a coffee, bring some snacks for the group, thank players for good play (and don't complain if they make mistakes), etc. Try roleplaying with the newbies. In short... take the extra steps to make friends. People often care more about games with 'friends' than 'strangers'.

2. Find other players. Recruit some experienced players to the game -- especially those able to help out, demonstrate reliability, etc. This can change table dynamics quickly.

3. Don't play... offer to DM. You don't need to deal with the frustrations of being a player and you can focus on another aspect of the game, give the current DM a break, and maybe have a better approach to dealing with the group.

4. Split the table. This is a big one for new players. Maybe it is easier to run two tables of three or four -- either on different nights or you offer to run a second table. It isn't that you want to isolate new players, but getting the table size down and having a couple of good experienced players specifically there to help the players can really help. With big groups there is always the push to get through the module, treasure, experience, etc. and that makes it hard for DMs to help less experienced players. You can spend more time roleplaying, talking, helping out, etc. and you can scale modules as needed -- even skipping encounters without upsetting others.

5. If helpful... start another AL campaign, workshops, or mini-modules, or invite the new players to a short home campaign. Show up early or on another day and run them through some combats or encounters.

6. Don't start conflicts with other players. It's AL. If the assassin was a jerk... fine. You still need to play with the person and its pointless to setup in-game rivalries or logical reasons why you would/wouldn't adventure with him/her. This isn't a home campaign where the usual reason people aren't jerks is because they'll loose friends or won't be able to play again if they are.

7. Look at making up a backup character and playing it. Don't get attached. Maybe make a supporting character who can help out one of the other new players.

[NaughtyTiger]

But would you be rude about it? I maintain it was the person that was the issue here...and not the action.

yes. if my whole character's schtick is about surprise, and the one time to comes into play, someone blows it (whether intentional or incompetent), yes, i would be pissed.
when i am pissed, i tend to be selfish and rude.

[RSP]

But would you be rude about it? I maintain it was the person that was the issue here...and not the action.

What the OP described was rude, but hardly the worst thing ever done at a table, if it’s completely accurate (not suggestioning the OP is lying, but it is a very limited one-sides description of what occurred). Getting out when a combat breaks bad is fine; his offense, apparently, is stating how fast a Tabaxi can move while doing so.

[Hobbo Jim]

To me, it seems like the OP's gripe isn't so much that the player retreated, but HOW he retreated.

He's annoyed at the fighter, but he's forgiven because he's new/ignorant. Assuming this is the truth, Some people seem to be fine with that, some people disagree and say it isn't a good enough excuse, but that's an opinion that doesn't have a whole lot of room for debate without being at the table.

Reading the comments, it seems like most people agree that the retreat was reasonable. Bad positioning, heading in a bad direction, large investment for not much reward.

The the OP seems to not like: A perceived abandonment (straight up running without telling anyone, not stopping to try and help the rest of the party get out), after a general annoyance (look how great my character is!) and otherwise general disregard for the party (Not invested, constantly on laptop not paying attention to others).

Perceived abandonment: I think him deciding to run was his way of saying "Hey guys, time to retreat." His decision to retreat, as the OP mentioned, isn't really unreasonable. Matt Colville (A prominent Youtube DM) did an interesting video on retreating that I tend to agree with - The best way to get your party to retreat is simply to do it yourself. Otherwise you go in a circle saying "are you ready? Should we do it? How many agree?" and then 3 turns later people are dying and no one has retreated. Running simply forces it. Not helping the people who are down next to you when you have potions is a bit harder to explain, and I would agree is a **** move so long as he wasn't in substantial danger of going down himself.

General annoyance - I get it. It probably put you on edge throughout the session, then him running sent you over the edge. Annoying players make the game less fun, but hopefully it didn't ruin it. I might be wrong, but my guess is that this would have been tolerable if you had succeeded in the last fight, but the last fight went poorly due to the fighter, not so much the assassin.

General disinterest - This is probably the worst of it for me. A few people have said "Well, gamers aren't known for their social skills." That's not an argument for this being fine or acceptable. Just because it's a common problem doesn't mean it's not a problem. Unfortunately, this is a problem that can only be solved out of game, generally by the DM. You can try to solve it player to player, but often that can just create animosity between the players, especially if the DM doesn't step in. Depends on how make/break it is for you. It would be worth trying if you're ready to walk, but not if venting is enough for it to become tolerable again.

[MadBear]

In regards to retreating: I see 0 problem here. He retreated, and he wasn't looking for a conversation to convince him otherwise. In a losing fight, that's the best way to get others to do the same.

In regards to being condescending in game and out: That's a problem, that would probably make me not play with them unless I had to. Especially since there some rando and not a friend. But that's a person problem, that's separate from them retreating.

In regards to being on their laptop: More info needed. If it affected their play, that's an issue. If there were large segments where they weren't relevant, I can understand being on the laptop. Also, did you see what they were doing? I ask because some people use online character sheet managers and maybe they were doing that, or another tangential task that a laptop would have been useful for. With that said, if they were completely disengaged and never had an idea of what was going on due to distraction. That's an issue.

[ThatsMyNick]

Sounds like the assassin player is a toxic player out-of-game, and I wouldn't want to play with him again if I were you. If it was RP, this still requires a group discussion, because, as you said, there is an unspoken agreement that if you are in a group then you're gonna cooperate with it. To be fair, it does make sense in-game to banish that player from the guild or w/e, since he is not trust-worthy, just note that this solves nothing if the problem is the player himself.

About the fighter, this is also a place to separate between player and character. The fighter character, who probably fought before and has more than 6 Wisdom, knows better than to act as he did. If the player does something like that out of ignorance about the game, there might be a place for some out-of-game discussion (preferably not too much) to explain the situation. As the DM I would have asked the player whether he realizes that what he's doing contradicts what the rest of the party is planning to do. This sounds like an easier problem though, because the player should get the hang of it after a few games, but until he does it might be very frustrating for the other players.

A bad player can improve. A douche bag will remain a douche bag.

[blackjack50]

yes. if my whole character's schtick is about surprise, and the one time to comes into play, someone blows it (whether intentional or incompetent), yes, i would be pissed.
when i am pissed, i tend to be selfish and rude.

Then one does not have an excuse if one is treated like a rude player. It is possible to get pissed at poor decisions in a game/sport and still not be rude. :)

I would get being “selfish” in the sense of protecting your character. But that isn’t rude given the circumstance. Being rude would be taunting other players as you leave.

[blackjack50]

What the OP described was rude, but hardly the worst thing ever done at a table, if it’s completely accurate (not suggestioning the OP is lying, but it is a very limited one-sides description of what occurred). Getting out when a combat breaks bad is fine; his offense, apparently, is stating how fast a Tabaxi can move while doing so.

For sure one sided. I’m just giving the benefit of the doubt. But there really isn’t much of an excuse for rude behavior.

[NaughtyTiger]

Then one does not have an excuse if one is treated like a rude player. It is possible to get pissed at poor decisions in a game/sport and still not be rude. :)

I would get being “selfish” in the sense of protecting your character. But that isn’t rude given the circumstance. Being rude would be taunting other players as you leave.

you suggested the the assassin player was "rude" for retreating full speed.
if Bob the fighter blows the plan and takes away my fun, screw him. he was "rude" for not bothering to learn the rules after 12ish sessions.

[RSP]

you suggested the the assassin player was "rude" for retreating full speed.
if Bob the fighter blows the plan and takes away my fun, screw him. he was "rude" for not bothering to learn the rules after 12ish sessions.

I just wanted to add that the OP’s initial response of not help the Assassin at all in the future, including going so far as to do nothing when the Assassin is in trouble and letting them die, is a step further from what they are accusing the Assassin of. At least the Assassin took part in the combat, even after the Fighter ruined the group’s chances.

I just find it odd the OP chose a reaction that is worse than the offense (which isn’t that big of an offense) of the Assassin, yet let’s the Fighter, who caused the situation, to skate.