Is Shock Trooper worthwhile on a Warblade?

[Sepultra]

Just as the title says, really. Playing a human warblade and I'm trying to decide whether or not to take Shock Trooper. The inability to wear heavy armour seems like it could be incredibly bad, particularly when I can use Power Attack against Touch AC with Emerald Razor and multiply my damage with the Nightmare Blade line.

I currently have Improved Bull Rush (but I can retrain it if I'm not taking Shock Trooper), Leap Attack, Power Attack, Improved Initiative (bonus feat), and Adaptive Strike (wasn't sure what else to take at 3rd level)

Also worth stating that I do intend to take Pouncing Charge at some point.

Edit: For clarity, I'm asking if it's worthwhile mostly as I'm unsure what I should be focusing on with Warblade. I know I can do enough damage, but I don't really know if the class needs any utility outside of Manuevers or if I'm best just buffing myself.
Also thought about taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency given the ability to retrain for any weapon I feel like using.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The 2-3 AC you're losing going from heavy to light armor aren't going to make much of a difference anyway against anything you can't just shrug off. Get some miss chance instead.
If that's the only reason you're not taking Shock Trooper you should.

As for the more general question of "is it worthwhile"? Yes, but not essential. You can do fine without.
I'd rather invest feats into trip instead, damage-wise Warblades are fine with what you already have.

[Sepultra]

The 2-3 AC you're losing going from heavy to light armor aren't going to make much of a difference anyway against anything you can't just shrug off. Get some miss chance instead.
I would if I knew where to get any miss chance beyond being buffed by the caster. Will look into this, though. thanks.


If that's the only reason you're not taking Shock Trooper you should.
Probably should've said in the OP that although I like charging I'm not really sure if I'd be better with some other utility like tripping, disarming, or even grappling. New to ToB stuff so I'm not sure what I should be trying to do. I think I'll have enough damage without Shock Trooper tbh. Will edit that in.


As for the more general question of "is it worthwhile"? Yes, but not essential. You can do fine without.
I'd rather invest feats into trip instead, damage-wise Warblades are fine with what you already have.
Yeah suppose that makes sense.
I also debated taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency given that I can retrain it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I would if I knew where to get any miss chance beyond being buffed by the caster. Will look into this, though. thanks.
Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) is a good bookmark to have.


I also debated taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency given that I can retrain it.
There aren't many exotic weapons worth a feat except the spiked chain. And you can do fine with a guisarme, so you're probably better off with something else. I certainly wouldn't take it before Improved Trip and Knockdown.

[Sepultra]

Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) is a good bookmark to have.
That's a really good link! Thanks mate.



There aren't many exotic weapons worth a feat except the spiked chain. And you can do fine with a guisarme, so you're probably better off with something else. I certainly wouldn't take it before Improved Trip and Knockdown.
The two I was thinking of were the Spiked Chain and Greatcleaver (Dragon 352), but honestly a lot of Exotic Weapons seem like they have niche uses that don't justify the feat without the Warblade class feature, but with it I feel like I might be able to get some use out of it.

I think I might go with tripping instead of Shock Trooper though

[Elves]

A vanilla warblade can definitely be pushed into an awkward position as a pseudo charger where they're wondering why they're not just ubercharging.

It's kind of part of being a generalist. For pursuing a specific strategy straight warblade is rarely the right answer.

Shock Trooper is still nice for eg Heedless Charge pouncing charge > activate belt of battle to use another strike maneuver, since Power Attack lasts all round.

[Sepultra]

A vanilla warblade can definitely be pushed into an awkward position as a pseudo charger where they're wondering why they're not just ubercharging.
Honestly this is part of why I made this thread. I'm not sure if I should just focus on doing as much damage as possible as a straight Warblade or make a point of getting more utility.


It's kind of part of being a generalist. For pursuing a specific strategy straight warblade is rarely the right answer.
So, do you think taking trips and the like is a better choice?


Shock Trooper is still nice for eg Heedless Charge pouncing charge > activate belt of battle to use another strike maneuver, since Power Attack lasts all round. (Although I guess some might argue that the effect of Heedless Charge only applies to attacks you make on that charge?)
This is the combo I was thinking of honestly. Pouncing charge seems worthwhile with or without Shock Trooper and I'm not sure it's worth a two feat investment

[Kelb_Panthera]

Heedless charge isn't the only feature of the shocktrooper feat. It's really not a bad feat in its own right. Domino rush and directed bullrush both have their uses when you're not dealing with enemies that are a mountain of teeth and claws. If you're not really sure what you're trying to get to and you can retrain, there's a -lot- worse you could do with a feat.

[Lans]

Can't the warblade replicate a little bit of the heedless charge with a stance and manuever? I think it would be better served grabbing utility with its feats.

[Telok]

As long as you can reasonably keep up being relevant in the damage department more utility is good.

Blindsense, an insane non-spell jump check, and the ability to turn 40+ AoOs into 40+ ac were regularly useful for me. But I was running a dex-blade and using the concentration strikes + improved crit & kukri for damage. Non-strength warblade is pretty limited.

[Gnaeus]

It also probably shouldnt be analyzed in a vacuum. Warblades have a pretty high optimization floor and can outcompete some classes and be relevant versus CR appropriate challenges just by breathing. Are you in a group with a blaster and a healbot or are you expecting to be competing with high end T1s.

[Troacctid]

I personally think Shock Trooper is going to be overkill for a warblade. Unlike other martial classes, you don't really need to be an ubercharger to output a lot of damage, and as cool as the bull rush tricks are, Heedless Charge can easily turn encounters into rocket tag, which probably isn't going to be the most fun experience.

[Elves]

I personally think Shock Trooper is going to be overkill for a warblade.

Sure, warblades are fine out of the box, but if damage is what you're aiming for then you still need gimmicks if you want to get ahead of the curve. A 2h-weapon warblade with no gimmicks should focus on utility and White Raven, because their damage isn't very good compared to a true charger. TWF warblade vs other TWFers is more competitive.


Heedless Charge can easily turn encounters into rocket tag, which probably isn't going to be the most fun experience
Rocket tag is just what 3e kind of is. Not taking a certain feat isn't going to change that.

Re OP, if you do take charging feats, I would personally find it frustrating to not truly have pounce and hence I'd tend to just cave and take the level of lion totem barbarian once you get your iterative, followed by a level of fighter to get all of Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Combat Brute online ASAP (and allow taking Robilar's at 12th). The one level delay in getting new maneuver levels will be less important than having your core strategy be solid, and in most campaigns you won't get to use the warblade capstone anyway.

You can certainly paper over not having intrinsic pounce with a mix of pouncing charge and polymorph, and in that circumstance Shock Trooper's still basically worth taking, I'm just saying for me it would be frustrating.

[Troacctid]

Rocket tag is just what 3e kind of is. Not taking a certain feat isn't going to change that.
I mean I guess OP can testify if that's what the game looks like now, but I'm guessing that's not currently the case.

[tiercel]

The two I was thinking of were the Spiked Chain and Greatcleaver (Dragon 352), but honestly a lot of Exotic Weapons seem like they have niche uses that don't justify the feat without the Warblade class feature, but with it I feel like I might be able to get some use out of it.

I think I might go with tripping instead of Shock Trooper though

I mean, if you’re ever going to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, the ability to take EWP: anything is pretty cool.... but probably the best use is if your DM likes really random loot drops, expecting you’ll just sell the lot, but you can decide to just keep the +5 holy kookaburra or whatever (“MERRY MERRY KING OF THE BUSH IS ME!!! AH-HA-HA-HAAAAAHHH!!!”) and swap out any time a Random Crazy Weapon of Awesome drops.

‘Course, if your DM doesn’t do that....

[Sepultra]

It also probably shouldnt be analyzed in a vacuum. Warblades have a pretty high optimization floor and can outcompete some classes and be relevant versus CR appropriate challenges just by breathing. Are you in a group with a blaster and a healbot or are you expecting to be competing with high end T1s.

My bad, should've specified this. The game itself isn't incredibly high optimization and people aren't minmaxing. I'd say everyone is around the tier 2/tier 3 mark, there's no wizard or any of the big 5 or whatever, so I don't think I'll need to compete with tier 1s.


Sure, warblades are fine out of the box, but if damage is what you're aiming for then you still need gimmicks if you want to get ahead of the curve. A 2h-weapon warblade with no gimmicks should focus on utility and White Raven, because their damage isn't very good compared to a true charger. TWF warblade vs other TWFers is more competitive.
I thought about this, but the party isn't exactly melee focused. I'm taking White Raven tactics, but that's about it, really. I don't see a situation where focusing on White Raven will be overly beneficial.



Re OP, if you do take charging feats, I would personally find it frustrating to not truly have pounce and hence I'd tend to just cave and take the level of lion totem barbarian once you get your iterative, followed by a level of fighter to get all of Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Combat Brute online ASAP
Taking Lion Totem Barb is something I'd like, but honestly it doesn't work with the character without some drastic event that I can't predict like being stranded with a bunch of barbarians for a while. I'm debating a level of warrior for some extra feats, though.


You can certainly paper over not having intrinsic pounce with a mix of pouncing charge and polymorph, and in that circumstance Shock Trooper's still basically worth taking, I'm just saying for me it would be frustrating.
I've never really played a charger before, so I'm not sure I'll have the same issue. Plus, can't I just combo Pouncing charge with WRT to get Pouncing Charge back the turn after I use it while refreshing the rest of my maneuvers? Or does that not work?


I mean I guess OP can testify if that's what the game looks like now, but I'm guessing that's not currently the case.
Honestly, we've not had enough encounters to really say. Judging from previous campaigns, though, it's more likely that we'll have a load of mobs and one larger enemy that we can't really hope to one shot and it not being worthwhile to just charge from mob to mob. Likely with ported Legendary Actions and such from 5e to make it more challenging this campaign.


‘Course, if your DM doesn’t do that....

Yeah I guess I'll ask if it'll be worthwhile.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still undecided tbh. I might take leap attack and forgo Shock Trooper for now, using Leading The Attack stance to boost damage with Pouncing Charge and take some tripping, blind sense, etc. to give me a couple more options.

Also I've been thinking about martial study. Is there a thread of good options for it? I can't find one that specifies ones without prereqs, but maybe I'm just blind

[Elves]

Taking Lion Totem Barb is something I'd like, but honestly it doesn't work with the character without some drastic event that I can't predict like being stranded with a bunch of barbarians for a while.

You were in a gang with undereducated/illiterate people who acted crazy, where the gang symbol was a lion head and everyone got lion tats. You spent all your time at warblade school getting kegged and crazy with Lion Phi Alpha, with the result that you graduated a year late. Lots of fluff possibilities.


Plus, can't I just combo Pouncing charge with WRT to get Pouncing Charge back the turn after I use it while refreshing the rest of my maneuvers?

That's action-inefficient compared to actually having pounce. Try and get an item of polymorph.


Also I've been thinking about martial study. Is there a thread of good options for it? I can't find one that specifies ones without prereqs, but maybe I'm just blind
It can be pseudo-abused by psych refing it to meet maneuver prereqs and then psych-refing it away after leveling up. If psionics aren't in use, non warblade options include shadow blink and shadow stride for a swift or move action teleport, inferno blade for twfers, death mark for a weak aoe, counter charge, cloak of deception for greater invis, and possibly more I'm forgetting. You can access those through discipline items, so Martial Study's main use here would be qualifying to use discipline items that have a 1 maneuver prereq.

This doesn't apply in your case, but shadow stride is good for warblades who focus on standard action strikes, since the benefit they gain compared to full action attacks is only as good as what they can do with their move action. At 15k, Shadow Hand gloves with that maneuver are a pretty good buy IMO. Unfortunately, for the swift action version which is what a charger would want, you'd need the 45k gloves.

[DeTess]

The really nice thing about shadow stride and its variations is also that outside of combat it's pretty much an at-will 50 feet teleport, which has lots of uses for things like climbing walls, getting across chasms, crossing open ground unseen, etc.

[Troacctid]

Martial Study is a lot worse for warblades than it is for non-initiators because the maneuver you learn from it is subject to your normal limit on readied maneuvers, so you effectively have to give up a maneuver from your class in order to use the new one. I have a warblade in my current campaign who's run up against this and found it frustrating. If I were taking a "dip into a subsystem" type of feat on a warblade, I'd probably go for Shape Soulmeld or Bind Vestige instead.

I assume you're not using action points; if you were, I'd suggest Action Surge or Jungle Veteran. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is solid too of course; my go-to would be greatcleaver or fullblade for pure damage, dwarven warpike or ritiik if you want to do tripping, or pincer staff or sharktooth staff if you prefer grappling. There's also Knowledge Devotion if you feel like putting in the skill ranks to make it work.

[Sepultra]

You were in a gang with undereducated/illiterate people who acted crazy, where the gang symbol was a lion head and everyone got lion tats. You spent all your time at warblade school getting kegged and crazy with Lion Phi Alpha, with the result that you graduated a year late. Lots of fluff possibilities.
Already gave the fluff to the DM. I don't really want to change it either, but thanks for the suggestion.




That's action-inefficient compared to actually having pounce. Try and get an item of polymorph.
If I ever get the chance, I will. Thanks.



You can access those through discipline items, so Martial Study's main use here would be qualifying to use discipline items that have a 1 maneuver prereq.

Martial Study is a lot worse for warblades than it is for non-initiators because the maneuver you learn from it is subject to your normal limit on readied maneuvers, so you effectively have to give up a maneuver from your class in order to use the new one.
Items can be used without taking up a maneuver readied, right? Also I take it Martial Stance is still solid?



At 15k, Shadow Hand gloves with that maneuver are a pretty good buy IMO. Unfortunately, for the swift action version which is what a charger would want, you'd need the 45k gloves.
It's expensive, but I'll look into it at higher levels. Thanks.


I assume you're not using action points; if you were, I'd suggest Action Surge or Jungle Veteran. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is solid too of course; my go-to would be greatcleaver or fullblade for pure damage, dwarven warpike or ritiik if you want to do tripping, or pincer staff or sharktooth staff if you prefer grappling. There's also Knowledge Devotion if you feel like putting in the skill ranks to make it work.

Yeah, no use of action points in the game. Is there a list of good exotic weapons anywhere? There seem to be loads of them.


Thanks again for all the replies. If I can get a list of Exotic Weapons and some idea about martial stances I think I'll have more than enough to finish off a build.
I think I'm set on taking EWP because being able to use loads of different exotic weapons will be pretty cool. Something to make fun of the other martials in game with. :smalltongue:

[GrayDeath]

I personally think Shock Trooper is going to be overkill for a warblade. Unlike other martial classes, you don't really need to be an ubercharger to output a lot of damage, and as cool as the bull rush tricks are, Heedless Charge can easily turn encounters into rocket tag, which probably isn't going to be the most fun experience.

Agreed to this.

As you do not seem to ahve a too clear focus, let me tell you (as a Warblade Player almost whenever I paly a martial) that both Exotic Weapon proficiency in settings without Super Magic Marts and additional Stances are normally the way to go.

You dont NEED Shocktrooper for damage, but if you find yourself often fighting people in situations where charging would work well, go for it. Its another powerful option, and you ahve more feats than yous trictly need any way.

[Troacctid]

Items can be used without taking up a maneuver readied, right? Also I take it Martial Stance is still solid?
Scripts can, but the wondrous items can't. 3000 gp is usually cheaper than a feat though. Stances don't have the same problem, so they're usually more viable, although they often require off-list maneuvers.


Yeah, no use of action points in the game. Is there a list of good exotic weapons anywhere? There seem to be loads of them.
A good list? Not really. I sometimes refer to this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?88633-Haberdash-the-Masked-The-3-5-Kitchen-Sink), but it's not as complete as it claims to be.

[Sepultra]

Agreed to this.

As you do not seem to ahve a too clear focus, let me tell you (as a Warblade Player almost whenever I paly a martial) that both Exotic Weapon proficiency in settings without Super Magic Marts and additional Stances are normally the way to go.

You dont NEED Shocktrooper for damage, but if you find yourself often fighting people in situations where charging would work well, go for it. Its another powerful option, and you ahve more feats than yous trictly need any way.

Yeah this is basically what I was wondering about. Thanks


Scripts can, but the wondrous items can't. 3000 gp is usually cheaper than a feat though. Stances don't have the same problem, so they're usually more viable, although they often require off-list maneuvers.


A good list? Not really. I sometimes refer to this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?88633-Haberdash-the-Masked-The-3-5-Kitchen-Sink), but it's not as complete as it claims to be.

It's the best list I've ever seen, so it helps a load.

Thanks!

[Elves]

If I ever get the chance, I will. Thanks.
I should have specified, you may know this, bladerager troll and I think also cave troll would be the forms you're looking for.


It's expensive, but I'll look into it at higher levels. Thanks.
The 45k version I would not get. A bunch of anklets of translocation are much cheaper, just as good for charging, and don't take up a mv readied. The 3k standard action version is still a nice utility item as DeTess mentioned, especially since you have Adaptive Style. (The 15k one, as mentioned, is for adepts who focus on standard action strikes.)

[Sepultra]

I should have specified, you may know this, bladerager troll and I think also cave troll would be the forms you're looking for.


The 45k version I would not get. A bunch of anklets of translocation are much cheaper, just as good for charging, and don't take up a mv readied. The 3k standard action version is still a nice utility item as DeTess mentioned, especially since you have Adaptive Style. (The 15k one, as mentioned, is for adepts who focus on standard action strikes.)

I didn't know that! Was gonna look up a guide for it, though, so thank you. If I'm able to Polymorph into those I will.

And I'll take the advice. I was thinking about boots of big stepping as well.

Anyways, thanks to everyone who replied. Think this is me sorted.