What's The Chance Of An Optimized Fighter Beat An Optimized Wizard?

[Bartmanhomer]

What is the chance of an optimized Level 20 Fighter to beat an optimized Level 20 Wizard (Evocation)? I beat the chance is almost non-existent. :tongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very nearly none. At the highest levels of optimization, wizards are nigh-unto gods compared to pretty much everything that's not another one of the big six, top-tier classes. With a great deal of effort and a build that's spec'ed entirely around seeking and killing spellcasters (not a fighter 20), you can get that chance to something greater than zero but you'll never get anywhere near 50/50.

[AvatarVecna]

If we assume that by "Optimized Wizard 20 (Evocation)", you more mean "a wizard optimized for direct combat" rather than "a wizard optimized for maximizing reward-to-risk ratio", then...it's maybe possible? But like...Wizard can get decent "high numbers" too - even if they're not blatantly cheating and giving the fighter no chance at all, it's not a huge ordeal to get a solid buff routine going, especially if they're optimizing for specifically that thing.

EDIT: And even that's assuming that "optimized fighter" means "optimized for pretending to be a wizard" and "optimized wizard" means "optimized for pretending to be a fighter".

[MisterKaws]

Is that fighter a Kobold who happens to have a Fleshraker Wild Cohort?

[Asmotherion]

Generally a deliberatelly unoptimised Wizard (banning Conjuration and Transmutation for example) is still going to one shot a high OP fighter.

Any chance the Fighter has comes from A) more restrictions to the Wizard (PHB only for example) and B) the Player's level of system mastery. A player with good system mastery can effectively duel a Wizard with a Fighter provided the Wizard player's system mastery is about 2 steps lower than the fighter's.

[Covenant12]

Fighter would need fairly extreme WBL-mancy and need a restricted poorly optimized Wizard to have any chance.

Even core only you have Foresight, Shapechange, Time Stop, Contingency-Teleport, and numerous no-save, I win combos like forcecage and acid fog. Which isn't even optimal but one of many core combos that is the Wizard gets a standard action that's it. And Foresight is core and 10 min/level.

He likely can't fail to cast defensively, if you have mage slayer the Wizard knows, and you need a way to stop him from taking a move action away while eating the AoO. Thicket of Blades-Stand Still-Mage Slayer but this is becoming a narrowly built Fighter somehow and the Wizard just got Celerity and such.
If he has quickened Dimension Door or Teleport, or Contingency-Teleport me when I say "Oh, ****!" the Fighter is playing rocket-tag without a rocket. Unless Shock-Trooper + pounce but I'm not sure how a Fighter really has that. Can this Fighter literally one-hit (one hit, not full attack) the Wizard?

Really unless it is something extreme (which could be extreme WBL-mancy), but many scenarios there is a 0% chance. I could get antimagic shell on a Runescarred Berserker who could solo level 20 Wizards if he gets in melee (unless that is prepared for), but a Fighter?

[Afghanistan]

The only Fighter that I can sincerely think could actually fight against an Optimized straight 20 Wizard is Anthrowhale's ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter), which is a WBL-Mancied Fighter that more or less doesn't really require you to BE a Fighter in the first place, and is cheaper and easier to do as a Wizard, Cleric, or Psion/Erudite so eh? :smallconfused:

Minor off-topic, but exactly how common is PvP amongst players at most tables? With the amount of times I see Wizard vs Class X discussions, it must certainly happen at every table at least once or twice, right? :smallconfused:

[Malroth]

At the highest levels of optimization class is entirely irrelevant, With enough WBLomancy on both sides feeding into various exploit loops both sides will be capable of pretty much anything, and combat devolves into finding holes in your opponents Immunity nets. However in such a game it is highly likely that the Wizard was able to kick start their loops sooner due to native spell access.

[Elves]

Minor off-topic, but exactly how common is PvP amongst players at most tables? With the amount of times I see Wizard vs Class X discussions, it must certainly happen at every table at least once or twice, right? :smallconfused:

Combat vs NPCs with class levels is very common. Obviously this varies by campaign, but a module like Red Hand of Doom confirms that it's not outside the expected playstyle.

[Afghanistan]

Combat vs NPCs with class levels is very common. Obviously this varies by campaign, but a module like Red Hand of Doom confirms that it's not outside the expected playstyle.

PCvNPC combat isn't exactly the same though is it? You are designing your NPCs in combat with the expectation of dying and not just TPK the group. I'm talking about genuine PvP where both parties are actively looking to kill the other.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Let's put it this way. A month or so ago, there was a thread on whether an optimized fighter could beat an optimized wizard that was limited to using only 0th level spells. The final odds came out about 50/50, IIRC.

[Elves]

PCvNPC combat isn't exactly the same though is it? You are designing your NPCs in combat with the expectation of dying and not just TPK the group. I'm talking about genuine PvP where both parties are actively looking to kill the other.

I mean, NPCs can be actively trying to win without the DM being an "out to getcha" jerk. Setting up a relatively balanced scenario and letting it play out is different from balorizing level 1ers.

[icefractal]

Depends how optimized you mean by optimized:

1) Good choices made where applicable, but not always choosing the most optimal theme or trying to cover ever eventuality. The level you might play in a mixed-optimization group.
Quite low, but possible. The Fighter winning initiative in close quarters is pretty much a necessity.

2) Picking generally the strongest options, not going into infinite loop territory or even close but legitimately trying to be able to defeat any threat.
No chance. The Wizard can easily have a lot of protections, including "not really being there to kill", and while the Fighter can use WBL-mancy to deal with several of those, that's at a much higher cost in resources than the Wizard is using to establish more.

3) Full on TO. Infinite Zodar wishes. Armies of Ice Assassins. Etc.
Actually pretty decent. With unlimited resources, WBL-mancy becomes very practical, and while the Wizard will always have a slight edge, that edge gets smaller the more NI stuff you throw into the mix. Easily eclipsed by better strategy or simply more attention on one player's part.

[vasilidor]

no, absolutely not.

[RatElemental]

It depends on which schools the wizard has banned, and what weapons the fighter is using, but no matter what the wizard has at least 5 different ways to instantly take the fighter out of the fight and half a dozen to avoid the fight altogether.

The thing to understand about wizards playing optimally is they don't fight battles, they change them. An "Optimized" wizard, even if they've specialized in evocation, is going to be able to fly, or stack a bunch of defensive spells on themself, or teleport, or make huge walls of iron/force/stone, or cover half the battlefield in a fog you can't see through that melts your skin off, and most of the time more than one of those things at once.

[noob]

you did not specify what the fighter and the wizard optimized.
so as far as I know the wizard is optimised for maximal basketweaving skill when in an antimagic zone and under the effect of an int lowering poison lowering their int under 3 and is wearing an item that constantly irradiates antimagic and also is constantly poisoned.
while the fighter is optimised at cooking.
Then afterwards they challenge each other and the main problem is finding judges that can compare baskets to dishes.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The wizard being a "Optimized Level 20 Wizard specialist Evoker" makes this fight pretty even in my head with a slight nod to the Fighter.

While Evocation has some great toys, specialist Evokers are generally associated with the least optimal playstyle for a wizard; kick *ahem* Greater Knock the door down, Fireball, cackle maniaclly, burninate the countryside, burninate all the peasants. Further while many knowledgable players who puruse internet forums enjoy this playstyle from time to time, I find that they usually opt for Mailman (a Sorcerer build), Ultimate Magus, or Educated Wilder so the character being an Evokers 20 makes me strongly question how "Optimal" they are, barring a bounded PvP challenge in which case Wizard wins before Initiative as always.

[ShurikVch]

I'm sorry, but results would be pretty close to 50/50, since optimized Fighter 20 would have Wizard 19 as a cohort, and Great Wyrm simulacrum as a mount

Sad truth of high-level D&D: if ability isn't irrelevant at level 20, then everybody have it - one way or another

[Malphegor]

Depends on what the challenge is. A straight fight? Probably not, even without preptime.

A swordfight? eh, the wizard can conjure something to do it for him.

How about a physical challenge... An obstacle course. There are spells to do such a thing (polymorph into something incorporeal would be my go-to), so I'd also say a TIMED obstacle course. You have X amount of rounds to get through these traps. The wizard must spend some rounds casting spells.

Unfair? Eh, it's a fight between a flatscan and a magic user, it was always going to be somewhat unfair.

[Gauntlet]

Depends on what the challenge is. A straight fight? Probably not, even without preptime.

A swordfight? eh, the wizard can conjure something to do it for him.

How about a physical challenge... An obstacle course. There are spells to do such a thing (polymorph into something incorporeal would be my go-to), so I'd also say a TIMED obstacle course. You have X amount of rounds to get through these traps. The wizard must spend some rounds casting spells.

Unfair? Eh, it's a fight between a flatscan and a magic user, it was always going to be somewhat unfair.

Pretty sure an optimised wizard has many options for avoiding having to spend actual actions casting spells. At 20th level, you could cast a quickened Polymorph even without any other support, but I'm pretty confident that just Shapechange is enough to outclass a Fighter at physical challenges, even if you have to spend a standard action casting it for some reason.

[Katie Boundary]

That depends. What race is each one? A Warforged Charger with 20 levels of fighter (ECL 28) will pwn a Rakka with 20 levels of wizard (ECL 36) because Rakkas take a -8 to intelligence

Here's a more interesting question: at what levels will a human fighter with 10 or 11 in every ability score beat a human wizard with the same ability scores?

[farothel]

Depends also on the items they both have. Antimagic items do exist, things like ring of spell turning, armour with spell resistance. With those items, if the fighter can close in, he can do a lot of damage and even optimized wizards are not the highest on hitpoints.

[NontheistCleric]

That depends. What race is each one? A Warforged Charger with 20 levels of fighter (ECL 28) will pwn a Rakka with 20 levels of wizard (ECL 36) because Rakkas take a -8 to intelligence

That Rakka likely put her highest ability score (let's assume 15, for elite array) in Int, put all her stat bonuses into Int, picked up an Int boosting item, or, even without that last one, and then would cast Fox's Cunning on herself. Race disadvantages can be mitigated most of the time, and even though that Rakka may never be as good as a Grey Elf at being a wizard, she can and probably will be miles above that Warforged Charger fighter.

[AvatarVecna]

Depends also on the items they both have. Antimagic items do exist, things like ring of spell turning, armour with spell resistance.

With those items, if the fighter can close in, he can do a lot of damage and even optimized wizards are not the highest on hitpoints.[/QUOTE]

Depends how optimized they are, and what sources are available. Certainly a low-op Wizard might have maybe Con 14 (20) and Int 24 (30) pre/post items, so they'd be looking at perhaps 20d4+80 (avg 130, max 160) - enough to not get screwed over by Power Word Death, but certainly nothing an equal-level fighter couldn't chew through if they were able to hit and damage the wizard...but if they're just a bit more optimized, picking up FMI (Passions) feat, and Necropolitan template, suddenly they're looking at 20d12+200 (avg 330, max 460) - almost certainly far better than the Fighter is doing in HP (though probably not better than the fighter's optimal damage, if the fighter is built for murder). None of that is magic, so it's not gonna be suppressed by some custom antimagic item even.

Beyond that, a lot of defenses tend to have a back-and-forth kinda thing going on - going incorporeal can be countered with a ghost touch weapon, miss chance and mirror images can be countered with true seeing item, and while immunities abound in spells, that mostly just means the fighter has to deal good old fashioned regular weapon damage to chew through HP. Unless that immunity is Hide Life making the wizard immune to dying from HP damage...as an instantaneous effect. Antimagic's not gonna help there unless you can find wherever they hid that finger or whatever.

And that's kinda the point some people are...gesturing towards in this thread: "optimized fighter" ends up on a sliding scale that includes "gradually higher numbers across the board" and "gradually finding ways to counter the cheaper ways of rendering fights meaningless", while "optimized wizard" is on a sliding scale that goes from "higher numbers" all the way to "literally crafting your own 'I Win' button", and at some point on the wizard's sliding scale, they pass the point where the fighter can make up for the difference with WBL, a point where the Fighter's only reasonable hope for victory is to have a Wizard cohort of their own.

Some people call going beyond that line "cheating", but they don't really mean that in the "breaking the rules of the game to win" way, as much as in the "bad sportsmanship" way - which can, to others, look like bad sportsmanship in and of itself: if you insist that a well-made/played fighter can totally take a well-made/played wizard, and then it turns out you vastly underestimated what "well-made/played wizard" meant, and pitch a fit about it not being fair, should they take you seriously? Sure, it's not manly men doing battle if the fighter shows up decked out in full anti-mage gear, only for the mage to just teleport back to base to heal up every time he gets slightly inconvenienced, or if the mage hides in an unlocatable unreachable unenterable private demiplane and spams clones/ice assassins/aleax's/time duplicates at the fighter, or if the mage instead of showing up to battle, just went back in time and murdered the fighter's parents prior to the fighter's birth...but those are tools in his toolbox. If the wizard isn't employing them, he's holding back...and if the fighter can't counter them, even when fully optimized, does that make the fight unfair?

SR via armor? Assay Spell Resistance gives no save and ignores SR, it just automatically lowers your SR (it's effectively more like giving the Wizard a bonus to pierce it), and buying enough that the wizard has trouble affecting you gets expensive quick and eats into your WBL...and then the wizard just uses spells that don't give SR. Probably the various "Orb of [X]" spells stuffed with metamagic goodness.

Ring Of Spell Turning and some kind of custom item of "AMF that doesn't affect wearer" have good synergy: RoST blocks up to 27 levels of targeted spells, but does nothing to AoEs, while AMF prevents most AoEs (and also provides some disjunction protection in the form of a sort-of CL check that SR-piercers don't help with). Sure the wizard can pull out an AoE that's also an instantaneous conjuration effect like "Hail Of Stone", but even metamagic'd to hell and back that wouldn't do damage nearly fast enough. Far better option is to empty a bag of "Shrink Item"d boulders-turned-pebbles way overhead and take advantage of the Falling Object damage rules to screw you over when the AMF abruptly changes their mass. Even if we're applying the "creature falls on creature" rules and involving either an attack roll or a saving throw, nat 20s/nat 1s will occur and end with massive damage occurring in quick succession from that marble-spilling maneuver.

Optimized wizard defenses, depending on exactly how optimized they are, can end up looking like a twisted version of the narcissist's prayer:

"You can't locate me.
If you can locate me, you can't reach me.
If you can reach me, you can't target me.
If you can target me, you can't hit me.
If you can hit me, you can't hurt me.
If you can hurt me, you can't kill me.
If you can kill me, I'll just send another clone, so it doesn't matter."

[Malroth]

Depends how optimized you mean by optimized:

1) Good choices made where applicable, but not always choosing the most optimal theme or trying to cover ever eventuality. The level you might play in a mixed-optimization group.
Quite low, but possible. The Fighter winning initiative in close quarters is pretty much a necessity.

2) Picking generally the strongest options, not going into infinite loop territory or even close but legitimately trying to be able to defeat any threat.
No chance. The Wizard can easily have a lot of protections, including "not really being there to kill", and while the Fighter can use WBL-mancy to deal with several of those, that's at a much higher cost in resources than the Wizard is using to establish more.

3) Full on TO. Infinite Zodar wishes. Armies of Ice Assassins. Etc.
Actually pretty decent. With unlimited resources, WBL-mancy becomes very practical, and while the Wizard will always have a slight edge, that edge gets smaller the more NI stuff you throw into the mix. Easily eclipsed by better strategy or simply more attention on one player's part.

This. Exactly This. On most Sane tables a Fighter will have somewhere from a tiny to zero chance but once sanity is abanonded class no longer matters.

[RatElemental]

once sanity is abanonded class no longer matters.

I kinda want to sig this...

[HeraldOfExius]

Have things changed enough from ten years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129672-Fighter-20-Vs-Wizard-13) that the wizard needs those 7 extra levels?

[noob]

Have things changed enough from ten years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129672-Fighter-20-Vs-Wizard-13) that the wizard needs those 7 extra levels?

The difference is that it have a different formulation that makes a wizard optimised for spell-less basketweaving is now admitted in the competition.

[ben-zayb]

Have things changed enough from ten years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129672-Fighter-20-Vs-Wizard-13) that the wizard needs those 7 extra levels?Nothing. That Fighter 20 still has a Wizard cohort that can outcast a Wizard 13.