Updating 2e backstab?

[elron42]

Hi,
Is it possible to use sneak attack instead of backstab in a 2e game and keep it balanced? I'm not as great on the maths side as other people on this forum so what I am really asking is what should the damage multiplier be so the thief doesn't outpace the fighter.

[MeeposFire]

IT would depend on how you want it to work especially how often you want it to work.

Back stab in general is designed to be hard to pull off (IMO it should be made easier).

Sneak attack in 3e is easier to pull off but there are lots of dumb ways to negate it. However can be done every hit if you fulfill the prerequisites.

Sneak attack in 4e is even easier to pull off and has no ways to negate it. Can only be done 1/turn (after errata).

sneak attack in 5e is even easier to pull than 4e and is hard to negate and is still 1/turn.

Pre 3e it seems to be assumed that generally you are not back stabbing, 3e seems to assume that you can get more sneak attacks and is willing to give you a lot of once but has lots of ways of preventing it from working, 4e and 5e essentially are designed with the idea that you will get to sneak attack almost every turn but only once per turn.


Personally I have not done it yet but I would suggest the 5e method as a good starting point. The damage will feel good and it it is not annoying to use and the thief class is a bit lacking in AD&D in combat unless you go out of your way to make them work. Perhaps it would work to use the 4e damage values (2d6-5D6) and have it once per turn but use 5e style of making it work (only needing an ally adjacent to the enemy to pull off).

Makes for a starting point though I am coming in from the idea you want these to happen almost every turn unlike the original back stab.

[knag]

Hi,
Is it possible to use sneak attack instead of backstab in a 2e game and keep it balanced? I'm not as great on the maths side as other people on this forum so what I am really asking is what should the damage multiplier be so the thief doesn't outpace the fighter.

Changing the 2e backstab to the 3e sneak attack definitely changes both the flavor and power of the 2e thief. There are far more opportunities for a Sneak Attack than a Backstab, and it turns the thief from a skill class to more of a combat class with weaker hit points, THAC0, and AC than warrior class, but great damage if you can outflank your enemies. That said, the thief class in particular was always a bit under powered in AD&D, and I don't think you'll have too much trouble with game balance with this change. Indeed "game balance" isn't really a concern for AD&D classes, as the Wizard is far more powerful than most other classes at very high levels. One thing the thief does have is a quicker leveling progression, and if you are to beef up their combat abilities, you might consider adding a penalty to the XP needed for each level... say 10%.

As far as the multiplier, I'm not sure about 1d6 per 2 levels as it is in 3e/5e. That's probably too much and will make them more powerful than a warrior class in combat. I might suggest sticking to the multipliers used in 2e, but applying the Sneak Attack rules for when you can use the attack (i.e. whenever dex bonuses don't apply or the opponent is flanked).

[MeeposFire]

Wait nevermind I need to rethink the number values.

[Telok]

Wait nevermind I need to rethink the number values.

Recall that fighters will do 1d8 to 3d6 (depending on weapon and target size) with +4 to +8 damage, once or twice a round, for most of their careers. Simply tacking on an every-round auto-scaling damage buff will pretty much make fighter/rogue the penultimate melee character. Plus the fact that the demi-human level limits in AD&D 2e for fighter and thief were generally both 12+...

I'd think about opening up backstab to ranged weapons and allowing a successful hide-in-shadows check (appropriate concealment required) to reset the thief's backstab allowance.

[elron42]

Thank you for the discussion everyone, it is very thought provoking!
We play a very combat orientated game and have tried a number of things over the years to make the thief more competative in this area. I like the idea of sneak attack.
I'm thinking that after the thief gets their attempt at old style backstab they can start using sneak attack in rounds after that.

The current sneak attack table for 5e is this:
1st 1d6 Sneak Attack,
2nd 1d6
3rd 2d6
4th 2d6
5th 3d6
6th 3d6
7th 4d6
8th 4d6
9th 5d6
10th 5d6
11th 6d6
12th 6d6
13th 7d6
14th 7d6
15th 8d6
16th 8d6
17th 9d6
18th 9d6
19th 10d6
20th 10d6


What if I added an extra step in like this
1st 1d6 Sneak Attack,
2nd 1d6
3rd 1d6
4th 2d6
5th 2d6
6th 2d6
7th 3d6
8th 3d6
9th 3d6
10th 4d6
11th 4d6
12th 4d6
13th 5d6
14th 5d6
15th 5d6
16th 6d6
17th 6d6
18th 6d6
19th 7d6
20th 7d6

[LibraryOgre]

So, a little to the side of this...

I used Skills and Powers to rough out the values of each of the core classes, objectively against each other (link to the blog post (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2019/10/a-cp-based-ad.html) which has a link to the model).

Most of the classes work out to about 170-200 points via that model. Fighters are 130, Rangers are 132.

Thieves are 45.

AD&D thieves are RADICALLY underpowered. Adding the entirity of a thief to a fighter makes a class worth 203 points (removing all of a thief's penalties in the process), which is a bit more in the middle.

[Khedrac]

So, a little to the side of this...

I used Skills and Powers to rough out the values of each of the core classes, objectively against each other (link to the blog post (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2019/10/a-cp-based-ad.html) which has a link to the model).

Most of the classes work out to about 170-200 points via that model. Fighters are 130, Rangers are 132.

Thieves are 45.

AD&D thieves are RADICALLY underpowered. Adding the entirity of a thief to a fighter makes a class worth 203 points (removing all of a thief's penalties in the process), which is a bit more in the middle.
That's a fascinating result. Does the low value of the abilities match the reduced xp to leve or does the thief get shortchanged there too?

[LibraryOgre]

That's a fascinating result. Does the low value of the abilities match the reduced xp to leve or does the thief get shortchanged there too?

Not really. (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2019/10/a-cp-based-ad.html)

It is somewhat reasonable to backport these numbers to the 2e DMG class creation rules, giving a multiple of 1 per 20 points; it creates fairly reasonable XP tables going off that, though they don't map precisely (as I like to emphasize, this is a model, and not a perfect one). If you do that, you wind up with fighters having a 2nd level at about 1300 XP, druids at 2200 (they're the most expensive)... and thieves having one at about 450.

You can alter the numbers in my assumptions, of course, but if you move the thief up to a "reasonable" level, everyone else becomes unreasonable. The only way to make the thief work is to way overvalue their abilities... even if you make it something similar to what's in the Priest section of S&P, they're under the bar.

[CE DM]

one would need to tone it WAY down.

AD&D moved the progression in 4 level blocks, so do that:

L1-4 +d6
L5-8 +2d6
L9-12 +3d6
L13+ +4d6

now, as noted, nobody, or next to nobody, has the defenses against it that would be present in 3e/3.5e, so one might consider using d4's rather than d6's, annoying as that would be.

[pming]

Hiya!

I wouldn't do it. The HP's in 1e/2e are a LOT lower than in later versions, and the AC of most things is easier to hit...and because of that, any bonus to hit makes more of a difference then in the later editions OTHER than 5th (where AC's are much 'lower', but HP's MUCH higher).

I like how Dark Dungeons (a BECMI clone) did it; Thieves' can 'double backstab' with daggers. Yes, exactly as you think...a Thief that is dual-weilding can make two backstab attacks on his opponent; one for each dagger. Each one that hits does his regular Backstab damage.

It didn't turn the Thief into a warrior-skirmisher-type...but it DID have the effect of completely terrifying my players any time they were anywhere near a place where Thieves are known to be (re: pretty much any brigand camp, or any settlement). It also really, REALLY made you want to stay on the good side of the local Thieves guild...or at least not annoy them.

Added bonus, when the Thief did pull off a double-backstab... it was pretty impressive and had everyone at the table smiling and cheering. :) Add in the "Weapon Mastery" (or "Weapon Feats" as they were renamed in Dark Dungeons), and now a Thief can very easily claim to be an 'assassin'. "Don't let him get anywhere NEAR a pair of daggers!" was akin to "Don't let that Jedi get anywhere NEAR his lightsaber!". ;)

[VladtheLad]

Backstab could be changed to every 3 levels multiply your weapons base damage or every 4 levels multiply your weapons damage including enhancement bonus. This could also scale indefinetly, but do note that at lower levels the backstab will likely be weaker.

I am a fan of combining fighter and thief in osr in one a class, but then I would remove the backstab and pickpocket abilities. Maybe use menzters 2016 thief class and use the extra skill points to differentiate between fighter types.

Note that hp are different in classic dnd and adnd. So rogues having a weaker backstab in classic dnd is normal.
In Ken do nims (moderator in dragonsfoot) houserules for classic dnd (I prefer those to the ones in darkest dungeons/original), backstab damage is double damage+1d4 for every 4 levels rounded down(+1d4 at 4-7th,+2d4 at 8th-11th, etc. all the way up to +9d4 at 36th).