Locking Down At-Will Teleport With E6 Mechanics

[BlackOnyx]

As per the title:


What options do 6th level characters have for hindering/negating spell-like, at-will Greater Teleport, namely in the context of fiends?


Suggestions for specific spells, feats, classes, tactics, or items (mundane or magic) are welcome.


(For the purpose of this thought exercise, assume that 4th level+ spells & magic items made using 4th level+ spells are not available in any capacity.)


Method(s) Considered So Far:



Employing Magic Circle Against Evil



Employing Dispel Magic



Exploiting AOOs Provoked by Use of Spell-Likes

[NontheistCleric]

You could be or enlist the aid of a cleric with the Portal domain (Player's Guide to Faerun), which includes Dimensional Anchor as a 3rd-level spell.

Or employ some more esoteric means of gaining access to domain spells, such as the Arcane Disciple feat or the Domain Access sorcerer ACF.

[Gauntlet]

Anticipate Teleportation is another option. Doesn't stop them leaving, but gives you time to ready actions or otherwise set up before they arrive.

[Jack_Simth]

Readied actions to disrupt spellcasting. Works on spell-like abilities, too.

[Mechalich]

One thing of importance to note is that, in an E6 setting, unless there's ritual magic that allows it, there shouldn't be any fiends because there's no way to summon them into the material plane (lesser planar binding and lesser planar ally being unavailable). If fiends are a thing, then the setting should probably have a houserule to prevent them from bamf-ing around the setting willy-nilly.

[Jack_Simth]

One thing of importance to note is that, in an E6 setting, unless there's ritual magic that allows it, there shouldn't be any fiends because there's no way to summon them into the material plane (lesser planar binding and lesser planar ally being unavailable). If fiends are a thing, then the setting should probably have a houserule to prevent them from bamf-ing around the setting willy-nilly.
E6 permits monsters with racial casting who aren't PC's. Some of those do have Plane Shift, the ability to grab Planar Binding/Ally, and so on. So there absolutely can be.

[Malphegor]

Would filling the place with solid material work? Hurts to teleport into solid ground I recall, and shunts you to the nearest viable spot.

(if concrete exists in your setting, that is)

[ShurikVch]

If it's about stopping possible escape, then hit with spireshard weapon (Dragon #315) - at case of failed Will save - stops SLA usage for 1d4 rounds

[Firebug]

Grapple. Enjoy that DC 27 concentration check when you may not even have concentration listed in your stat-block.

[ericgrau]

Anticipate Teleportation is another option. Doesn't stop them leaving, but gives you time to ready actions or otherwise set up before they arrive.







Exploiting AOOs Provoked by Use of Spell-Likes

Can be negated with a concentration check, and most devils have a huge modifier

Spell like abilities also use other concentration checks just like spells. Most but not all devils have huge concentration, but it is a DC 27 check if you grapple. You might also ready actions to do damage to make escape virtually impossible. The problem with that is setting the trigger, since you have no way to perceive a spell like ability being activated. Damage over time could do it, but it's hard to get DOT very high in E6. Perhaps someone will chime in with an obscure spell of level <=3 that does decent damage with a 1 round duration. Then you just keep recasting it.

Anticipate teleport + arcane sight would at least usually tell you that a devil has greater teleport. I mean it's unlikely that the devil has another spell like ability above 7th level in E6, unless a TPK is coming. So that might help you set up something else.


One thing of importance to note is that, in an E6 setting, unless there's ritual magic that allows it, there shouldn't be any fiends because there's no way to summon them into the material plane (lesser planar binding and lesser planar ally being unavailable). If fiends are a thing, then the setting should probably have a houserule to prevent them from bamf-ing around the setting willy-nilly.

Planar gates.

You could pump your save DC up to high heaven and hit the devil with a disable, save-or-lose or etc. Though it's hard to find a SoL/SoD below 3rd that teleport won't defeat. During a failed attempt to look for DOT I found Vision of Heaven, a 1st level cleric spell that's a will save or daze on an evil creature for one round. It's SR yes though. So you need to pump your spell penetration up too. But since it's only first level you could extend it to 2 rounds and double the number of tries you get. Perhaps a highly optimized stunning fist could help, and/or multiple party members with stun. I found this thread with some ways: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187892-3-5-Ways-to-Stun . Also wraithstrike could make melee attacks that stun easier to hit with, so you can focus more on the DC. So... maybe the answer is stunlock the devil long enough to kill him?

This reminds me of another simple tactic to take down teleporting foes: Kill him within 1 round. Easy to do with minions. Hard to do with a LBEG/BBEG, but taking him down to half health within 1 round is less difficult. Which means he won't be able to do anything except appear, maybe or maybe not attack once and leave. If he tries to attack twice (or just once on a poor initiative), he will die. If he has allies and he pops away, they could die. That kills weaker devils and sometimes grants you a stale mate against others, with nearly zero build investment. Of course you need good at will attacks or a strong devil with a wand of CLW can win with attrition.

[Crake]

Are you looking at this from a DM perspective on how to enable the players to deal with that sort of thing? Or from a player perspective on how to deal with it within the confines of E6?

If you're the DM, you can just homebrew something? When I run e6, I have an alchemical item known as weirdstone water. If you've heard of weirdstones, large crystals that radiate an anti-teleport field out for miles, it's basically water, mixed in with very finely ground weirdstones, that when splashed on a target, removes it's ability to teleport until they can wash themselves. Against a fiend, you could even double down on it, by mixing it with holy water instead of regular water, to also make it hurt the fiend in the process.

[ericgrau]

The more I think about this the more I think you may be over-estimating greater teleport. Against weaker foes you gang up with damage and he dies within a single round before his turn. Against stronger foes you might try save-or-X effects. Stunlocking is one, but I bet there are a few others. And any strong devil that wants more than 1 turn risks death too. Which means he better be totally alone or his allies will die. So to avoid being not a big deal without any build investment at all, this challenge is pretty much restricted to lone LBEG and BBEGs with no minions. Even synchronized group teleports could let you gang up on the weakest one in under 1 round. And that's all you need really, any progress at all, because the devils spent 1 of their turns teleporting and therefore didn't attack as much as the PCs did. Plus PCs can heal in between fights too. Lone devils are more vulnerable to save-or-X spamming, gang-grappling to force concentration checks, or other power of numbers tactics. Then if you can just stun/grapple or otherwise successfully delay him for a round or two after his attack he may die, unless he has other good defenses set up.

Of course that's from the appropriate CR point of view. The real power of a realistic greater teleport is that an entire army can attack one target, then instantly move on to the next target, with no need to divide forces. Thus making all fights so overwhelming that no tactic can save you.

[Feantar]

One thing of importance to note is that, in an E6 setting, unless there's ritual magic that allows it, there shouldn't be any fiends because there's no way to summon them into the material plane (lesser planar binding and lesser planar ally being unavailable). If fiends are a thing, then the setting should probably have a houserule to prevent them from bamf-ing around the setting willy-nilly.

Are artificers banned at e6? Because, if not, the lesser planar binding is available from level 3, through artificer crafting a Demonologist Lesser Planar Binding scroll.

[BlackOnyx]

Can be negated with a concentration check, and most devils have a huge modifier


A good point; it seems like this strategy would be best suited for fighting demons, if anything. (Perhaps unsurprisingly, a good helping of chaotic fiends seem to lack ranks in concentration.)



Are you looking at this from a DM perspective on how to enable the players to deal with that sort of thing? Or from a player perspective on how to deal with it within the confines of E6?

If you're the DM, you can just homebrew something?.


This would be me asking as a DM. Really, I'm just looking to send out a few feelers to get an idea of what options my players might have access to beforehand.


Homebrew is always a possibility, but I usually make an effort to use first-party solutions whenever possible. I feel it gives the world a bit more internal consistency if it can be simulated with minimal "interference" on my part. (Essentially, I just input the setting & story as DM, and the 3.5e framework spits out a world.)



The more I think about this the more I think you may be over-estimating greater teleport....

...Of course that's from the appropriate CR point of view. The real power of a realistic greater teleport is that an entire army can attack one target, then instantly move on to the next target, with no need to divide forces. Thus making all fights so overwhelming that no tactic can save you.


As mentioned above, I'm just putting out a few feelers to see what options are available. Though tricky to deal with in the right context, I'm not too worried about at-will teleport being the death of my players. If they (individually or as a group) find themselves getting frustrated though, it's always nice to know what options I can help steer them towards.


In more of an overarching "story" sense, your last point (about the military/strategic advantages of at-will teleport) is appreciated. As a more political campaign, it's certainly something my players will have to take into account.

[Crake]

Homebrew is always a possibility, but I usually make an effort to use first-party solutions whenever possible. I feel it gives the world a bit more internal consistency if it can be simulated with minimal "interference" on my part. (Essentially, I just input the setting & story as DM, and the 3.5e framework spits out a world.)

I've found that only really works if your world fits into what 3.5 "expects" your world to be like. E6 is definitely a huge variation from the standard world expectations, so you're almost definitely going to have to either a) patch things up with some homebrew, b) make strange, awkward combinations of feats and abilities commonplace/borderline required, c) simply not use a large majority of content due to it not working well without standard world expectations, or d) accept that things are going to be significantly harder/nigh impossible, and adjust your campaign accordingly, for example, making that CR6 teleporting babau into the adventure's BBEG, because of how powerful his ability to be practically anywhere at once is in a setting that can't really deal with it.

[ericgrau]

In more of an overarching "story" sense, your last point (about the military/strategic advantages of at-will teleport) is appreciated. As a more political campaign, it's certainly something my players will have to take into account.
You might solve that big plot hole by making humanoids drastically outnumber outsiders, or at least the number of outsiders on the material plane that aren't busy fighting other outsiders. That would make it possible to defend all major locations even against the entire fiendish forces, and restrict devil/demon attacks to smaller villages, farms, roads and so on. Once the fiends learn of them they may hit 100 a day, but the tricky part is learning and cataloging them, and them eventually moving. Some fiends like succubi might be spies, but again a small force can only afford so many spies (and are possible plot targets). Occasionally 1/day area of effect abilities can be used against a little larger armies to weaken them. Fleeing (as the fiends will want to make their target and then immediately leave, rather than pursue), staying in civilized areas and/or not getting the attention of fiends will be the PCs' best bet. Once they do do something to tick them off, the PCs will want to hop from large city to large city with stealth and nondetection spell buffs. Likewise scrying on the fiends and counter-attacking them will be a thought. Their base will most likely be more than a day's travel from any ordinary army in a remote and inhospitable location. If not using a gate to go back to a base on another plane that is likewise remote. They may need multiple bases in case forces march closer, and sneaking up on their lair with a low level army of ordinary NPCs could be part of the plot. The goal of such an army is of course never to wipe them out, but to kill several of them with surprise attacks before they pop away.

Really many foes are similar. They are hiding and raiding ABC and the army can't route them out. If only we had a small number of powerful and plucky people to locate them unnoticed and/or get rid of XYZ important thing they have. Enter the PCs.

[Chauncymancer]

One thing of importance to note is that, in an E6 setting, unless there's ritual magic that allows it, there shouldn't be any fiends because there's no way to summon them into the material plane (lesser planar binding and lesser planar ally being unavailable). If fiends are a thing, then the setting should probably have a houserule to prevent them from bamf-ing around the setting willy-nilly.
Technically a few fiends will be summonable with Summon Monster 2 and 3. And while it says in Summon Monster's text that a monster cannot use it's ability to call monsters when summoned, it's a possibility that you might be able to craft a scroll of calling using a summoned monsters help.

[Fizban]

I shall link Mundane Means of Blocking Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540790-Mundane-means-of-blocking-teleport), and while I'm at it, Teleporting and Surprise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?513475-Question-for-the-Forums-Teleporting-and-Surprise), and maybe Teleporting into a room that has moved (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549817-Teleporting-into-a-sealed-room-that-has-moved) for good measure.

[BlackOnyx]

I've found that only really works if your world fits into what 3.5 "expects" your world to be like. E6 is definitely a huge variation from the standard world expectations, so you're almost definitely going to have to either a) patch things up with some homebrew, b) make strange, awkward combinations of feats and abilities commonplace/borderline required, c) simply not use a large majority of content due to it not working well without standard world expectations, or d) accept that things are going to be significantly harder/nigh impossible, and adjust your campaign accordingly, for example, making that CR6 teleporting babau into the adventure's BBEG, because of how powerful his ability to be practically anywhere at once is in a setting that can't really deal with it.


You make a good point, but just to reiterate, the purpose of this post was to see what low methods are available to players looking to hinder at-will teleport.


Ideally I'd like to locate those options before introducing any mechanics of my own.


I do agree though; in a world where 6th level characters face 6th level+ threats, there's bound to be some situations where homebrew is necessary to smooth out the wrinkles. Ritual magic from Unearthed Arcana is my go-to in those situations, but I typically only defer to that method as a last resort.


With the sheer number splatbooks published under 3.5e, there's usually at least a few low level analogues (be they feats, mundane/magic items, or spells) that mirror aspects of higher level magic. Or, at the very least, there's enough options available to give players the basic tools they need to stand up against creatures below CR 10. The hardest part is knowing where to look.


I will admit that my lack of homebrew use is contingent on my application of your "Point C"; the monsters, items, and locations I introduce into my world are fairly carefully curated. (For example, my players aren't randomly going to stumble across an allip thanks to a bad roll on an encounter table.) I feel that introducing challenges against which my players have no means of recourse would be in bad form.


That in mind, for the purpose of this campaign, I don't intend on introducing an entire legion of teleporting fiends out of nowhere. Swarms of chaff (dretch, rutterkins, quasits) are likely to be far more common.


The occasional babau leading a unit is more a threat of things to come, a taste of what could easily overwhelm the PCs if they allow the problem to grow out of hand.



Really many foes are similar. They are hiding and raiding ABC and the army can't route them out. If only we had a small number of powerful and plucky people to locate them unnoticed and/or get rid of XYZ important thing they have. Enter the PCs.


The secret synopsis for 85% of d&d campaigns.



I shall link Mundane Means of Blocking Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540790-Mundane-means-of-blocking-teleport), and while I'm at it, Teleporting and Surprise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?513475-Question-for-the-Forums-Teleporting-and-Surprise), and maybe Teleporting into a room that has moved (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549817-Teleporting-into-a-sealed-room-that-has-moved) for good measure.


Ooh, very good resources, thank you.


I especially liked the suggestions of Anchor Mist from Dungeonscape and Sussur Trees from Underdark.


My players recently found themselves exiting the underdark with the remnants of a drow settlement in tow; incorporating both items/elements wouldn't be too much of a stretch.