Archer Sorcerer

[Yunru]

So I've got the bare bones of a character down-pat, but I'm looking for some suggestions on where to go fleshing it out.

For the first six levels, I'll be a [insert subclass that gets 13+Dex mod armour] Sorcerer, then for the next 11 I'll be taking levels in Eldritch Knight.

My weapon of choice is going to be a Longbow, necessitating that I take Elf for a race.

I'll be prioritising Dexterity and Constitution, in that order, so spells that require an attack roll or saving throw are off of the table.

From level 5 onwards, I'll be starting fights by either casting Haste, or having already cast Haste, so my Concentration slot is locked down.

Metamagic wise I'm considering Quicken (for when I can't precast Haste) and Twin (for when I can)?


Sorry if it's a little scatter-brained, hospital drugs are goooood stuff. Heh.

[dreast]

I’m not sure what you need from us here, it sounds like you’ve got this thought out. Why the need for a 13+ AC sorc subclass, though? Mage armor works fine, esp. given that you pick up a light armor proficiency when you pick up a fighter level; if you get your first level of fighter at 6th instead of 7th, you can even make it your last “swap out” spell.

Of course, my default for this build would be shadow sorc, but that’s darkness for conc., not haste, so no go there. But beyond that, I guess it’s up to you. (Celestial Sorc springs to mind; the cleric list would give you some excellent non-con options, and cure wounds for free if you plan on a Good source. Guidance, Lesser Restoration and Remove Curse spring to mind.)

[Yunru]

I’m not sure what you need from us here, it sounds like you’ve got this thought out. Why the need for a 13+ AC sorc subclass, though? Mage armor works fine, esp. given that you pick up a light armor proficiency when you pick up a fighter level; if you get your first level of fighter at 6th instead of 7th, you can even make it your last “swap out” spell.

I want the 13+ because, at least for levels 5-8, all my spell slots will be turned into level 3 ones for casting Haste (and for a while after that, any excess SP will go on metamagic).

As for what exactly I'm looking for... I don't know. I know the main thing I'm going to be doing in combat, but other than that, I've no idea what I want to do, or would be good at doing. What do I do with my Cantrip choices, what do I do with my bonus action, etc.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You can take a feat for bonus actions if you want(CBE for example).

For spells I think you may want blink and mirror image for a non concentration buffs. Shield and absorb elements for defense and I personally like feather fall but it my not have use in your campaign.

[Expected]

For optimized action economy, I'd choose Variant Human over Elf, choose Crossbow Expert at level 1, and use a hand crossbow. Take Sharpshooter at level 4 and maybe War Caster (losing concentration on Haste is painful).

[Bobthewizard]

On this build, it looks like you'll have one attack from levels 1-4, then 2 attacks (when you use haste) from levels 5-10, then 3 attacks (with haste and fighter's extra attack) at 11. Is that right? If so, I'm not sure this is better than just going straight fighter. Fighter gets the same number of attacks at each level without using a spell slot and more ASI's to boost your DEX and get sharpshooter sooner. This seems like maybe a big investment just for the movement and AC bonus, especially given the possibility of missing an entire round if you lose concentration.

I think it makes more sense to add 5 levels of sorcerer or wizard after level 11 in fighter, once you have a 20 Dex, sharpshooter, and 3 attacks. You wouldn't need to be a high elf anymore so could pick a race with bonuses to dex and con. You also wouldn't have to dump all of your spell slots into haste so could use shield, expeditious retreat, longstrider, and/or misty step to make up for the AC and movement of haste.

Edit: You can get haste at level 14 on an EK, so I probably wouldn't multi class at all. Just use the EK spells for movement and defense.

[dragoeniex]

Seconding Shadow Sorcerer as a nice match, but I'll admit that's mostly so you can have magic hunting dogs pursuing your targets.

[Damon_Tor]

I guess I just don't get why you're a sorcerer at all. Bards make fine archers, and so do warlocks. Even a bladesinger would at least get an extra attack.

[Yunru]

You can take a feat for bonus actions if you want(CBE for example).

For spells I think you may want blink and mirror image for a non concentration buffs. Shield and absorb elements for defense and I personally like feather fall but it my not have use in your campaign.


For optimized action economy, I'd choose Variant Human over Elf, choose Crossbow Expert at level 1, and use a hand crossbow. Take Sharpshooter at level 4 and maybe War Caster (losing concentration on Haste is painful).
Crossbow Expert is a good suggestion, although I wouldn't get proficiency with Hand Crossbows until level 7.

Thanks for the spell suggestions Blood Snake!

I was going to point out that Longbow requires me going Elf, but Sorcerers can use Light Crossbows, so yeah, Variant Human starting with Warcaster sounds likely.



I guess I just don't get why you're a sorcerer at all.Because Sorcerers are the only ones that can cast Haste 6/day at level 6.

[Yunru]

On this build, it looks like you'll have one attack from levels 1-4, then 2 attacks (when you use haste) from levels 5-10, then 3 attacks (with haste and fighter's extra attack) at 11. Is that right? If so, I'm not sure this is better than just going straight fighter. Fighter gets the same number of attacks at each level without using a spell slot and more ASI's to boost your DEX and get sharpshooter sooner. This seems like maybe a big investment just for the movement and AC bonus, especially given the possibility of missing an entire round if you lose concentration.
The extra Action from Haste is a lot more than just an extra attack though. When needed it can be a Dodge, a Disengage, or even a Hide action. Once you factor in things like Crossbow Expert and whatnot, just an extra attack also becomes two extra attacks when I cast a spell. (Which makes me think maybe this would be stronger as a more cantrip focused Fighter/Warlock, but that'd play different enough that I'll save it for another time.)

The Sorcerer/EK also gets more spell slots and whatnot. The same is true if I just went EK 11 then Sorcerer 6, and indeed I might choose that if starting at a higher level, but this way round I get to do spellcastery stuff from the start.


Edit: You can get haste at level 14 on an EK, so I probably wouldn't multi class at all. Just use the EK spells for movement and defense.
I can yes, once a day (at level 14). And even then I can't Quicken it, or Twin it. Without multiclassing, I can never do it more than 3 times per rest even.

[Bobthewizard]

The extra Action from Haste is a lot more than just an extra attack though. When needed it can be a Dodge, a Disengage, or even a Hide action. Once you factor in things like Crossbow Expert and whatnot, just an extra attack also becomes two extra attacks when I cast a spell. (Which makes me think maybe this would be stronger as a more cantrip focused Fighter/Warlock, but that'd play different enough that I'll save it for another time.)

The Sorcerer/EK also gets more spell slots and whatnot. The same is true if I just went EK 11 then Sorcerer 6, and indeed I might choose that if starting at a higher level, but this way round I get to do spellcastery stuff from the start.


I can yes, once a day (at level 14). And even then I can't Quicken it, or Twin it. Without multiclassing, I can never do it more than 3 times per rest even.

Crossbow expert gives you a bonus attack which is not doubled with haste. You would get the same bonus attack either build.

True with the dodge, disengage, or hide. You don't get that with the straight EK. Just not sure it's worth it when you could cast misty step and shield when needed and still get the extra attack if you went EK.

Sorcerer/EK gets more spell slots but you said you are using them all on haste. You wouldn't need to do that on a straight EK, so the EK would have more spell slots left over for other spells.

Haste on a level 14 EK is one more attack than you would get on haste with a 6 sorcerer/8 EK. So yes you only get it once per day, but even without it you would have the same number of attacks as your build. With it, you make more attacks than the multi class can.

I'm not saying don't play this build. If it's what you want to play, go for it. I'm all for character over optimization when I play. I just think you could get the feel of your character in a more effective way by ignoring sorcerer and replicating most of haste's effects with other spells on a straight EK.

[Expected]

Crossbow Expert is a good suggestion, although I wouldn't get proficiency with Hand Crossbows until level 7.

Thanks for the spell suggestions Blood Snake!

I was going to point out that Longbow requires me going Elf, but Sorcerers can use Light Crossbows, so yeah, Variant Human starting with Warcaster sounds likely.


Because Sorcerers are the only ones that can cast Haste 6/day at level 6.

You could start as a class that gets hand crossbow proficiency or dip one level into Fighter for proficiency and Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged attacks).

[stoutstien]

So I've got the bare bones of a character down-pat, but I'm looking for some suggestions on where to go fleshing it out.

For the first six levels, I'll be a [insert subclass that gets 13+Dex mod armour] Sorcerer, then for the next 11 I'll be taking levels in Eldritch Knight.

My weapon of choice is going to be a Longbow, necessitating that I take Elf for a race.

I'll be prioritising Dexterity and Constitution, in that order, so spells that require an attack roll or saving throw are off of the table.

From level 5 onwards, I'll be starting fights by either casting Haste, or having already cast Haste, so my Concentration slot is locked down.

Metamagic wise I'm considering Quicken (for when I can't precast Haste) and Twin (for when I can)?


Sorry if it's a little scatter-brained, hospital drugs are goooood stuff. Heh.

I'm all for strange builds. This one is interesting to say the least. Id save a few low lv slots for shield. Getting knocked out of concentration with haste is death. Mirror image, Blink and absorb elements are also must have.

Don't forget you will still need 13 charisma to multiclass out/I to sorcerer.

[Yunru]

Crossbow expert gives you a bonus attack which is not doubled with haste. You would get the same bonus attack either build.I meant that if you cast a spell with your action, Haste gives you an extra weapon attack. If you have CE or similar, that allows you to make a BAA, in effect allowing two weapon attacks more than without Haste.

Also it's only all the spell slots (and Sorcery Points) of a level 6 Sorcerer. Once the character reaches level 9, they get more to play with.


A stray thought: If I really wanted to cheese it, swap all but one levels of Fighter for Rogue and double dip that Sneak Attack.

[dragoeniex]

I meant that if you cast a spell with your action, Haste gives you an extra weapon attack. If you have CE or similar, that allows you to make a BAA, in effect allowing two weapon attacks more than without Haste.

Also it's only all the spell slots (and Sorcery Points) of a level 6 Sorcerer. Once the character reaches level 9, they get more to play with.


A stray thought: If I really wanted to cheese it, swap all but one levels of Fighter for Rogue and double dip that Sneak Attack.

Sneak Attack is good, but you can only apply it once per turn even if you've got Haste, Multi Attack, Action Surge, etc.

Unless you meant double-dipping as just applying extra damage to your original concept, in which case, carry on.

[Yunru]

Sneak Attack is good, but you can only apply it once per turn even if you've got Haste, Multi Attack, Action Surge, etc.

Unless you meant double-dipping as just applying extra damage to your original concept, in which case, carry on.

You attack with your hasted action, then ready an attack with your regular action. I'm very proud for being one of the first to discover it, way back when :P

[Bobthewizard]

A stray thought: If I really wanted to cheese it, swap all but one levels of Fighter for Rogue and double dip that Sneak Attack.

I like this build. 6 levels of sorcerer then switch to arcane trickster. Haste makes more sense to me when it gives you an extra attack and extra sneak attack. You could skip fighter altogether or 2 levels of fighter for action surge might be worth it.

[dragoeniex]

You attack with your hasted action, then ready an attack with your regular action. I'm very proud for being one of the first to discover it, way back when :P

Ah. A little fiddly for my tastes, since I'd rather just add a reliable way to get it on a reaction, but I could see that. I'd like to think this is a smuggity smug archer looking all self-satisfied for exploiting enemy movements.

I'd be prepared for the set trigger to not always work and give the DM 0 crap for maneuvering around it, though. Bit of a trade-off.

[Damon_Tor]

Ah. A little fiddly for my tastes, since I'd rather just add a reliable way to get it on a reaction, but I could see that. I'd like to think this is a smuggity smug archer looking all self-satisfied for exploiting enemy movements.

I'd be prepared for the set trigger to not always work and give the DM 0 crap for maneuvering around it, though. Bit of a trade-off.

You could use it to set up a catch 22. For example, set your reaction to make a ranged attack on an enemy who is currently engaged in melee with one of your allies. The trigger is "does anything except move away from the ally." The DM would have to either eat the extra damage and stay in melee with the ally, or move away from the ally (likely eating an AoO)

[dragoeniex]

You could use it to set up a catch 22. For example, set your reaction to make a ranged attack on an enemy who is currently engaged in melee with one of your allies. The trigger is "does anything except move away from the ally." The DM would have to either eat the extra damage and stay in melee with the ally, or move away from the ally (likely eating an AoO)

I wouldn't let that fly, from the DM side. That's a lack of a trigger, rather than the presence of one. As discussed in another thread, your held action also happens after the trigger finishes. And when are you ever finished doing literally anything but a specific action? When you do that action, which is also safe to do?

No, I wouldn't count the end of the enemy's turn either. If your specific DM is alright with concentrated levels of cheese like that, alright, but it's not baseline. And be prepared for monsters to start abusing tactics in similar ways.

"When an enemy moves within range" or "when an enemy attacks an ally," could fly, but if it becomes too consistently powerful, be open to nerfs.

[solidork]

I would like to point out that you can't use your Haste action to Dodge.

[Damon_Tor]

I would like to point out that you can't use your Haste action to Dodge.

No, but you can use your normal action to dodge and your haste action to attack.

[Arkhios]

Regarding action economy, it's worthwhile to pay close attention to how Font of Magic actually works:

It's a Bonus Action per use: either to convert sorcery points to one spell slot, or to convert one spell slot to sorcery points.

Unless your DM has confirmed to overlook this restriction, you can't convert more than one spell slot per Bonus Action, nor can you both convert a spell slot into sorcery points and sorcery points into a spell slot (or multiple spell slots) with the same bonus action.

Since Haste is a 3rd-level spell, it costs 5 sorcery points to create just one 3rd-level spell slot.

The point I'm trying to convey is that mid-combat you can't convert multiple 1st level and 2nd level spell slots with just one Bonus Action to create enough sorcery points for a 3rd-level spell slot and then also convert said sorcery points into a 3rd-level spell slot in only one turn, because it takes multiple separate bonus actions (two at minimum, if you convert a 5th level spell slot for 5 sorcery points), and you only have one bonus action per turn.


No, but you can use your normal action to dodge and your haste action to attack.

Sure, you can do that. However, Haste only lets you make one attack. Haste doesn't give you another Attack Action, so you can't both Dodge and benefit from Extra Attack with Haste. Granted, with the build in question, the character has to wait for Extra Attack for quite some time. Assuming they go through with the plan of "Sorcerer from 1 to 6 and then Fighter from 1 to 11", the character is at 11th level before they get even the first extra attack.

[Spiritchaser]

You may find that advantage (from darkness with a shadow sorcerer or Greater invisibility with any) plus sharpshooter gets you more consistent damage than haste, and both of these generate the dissadvantage that dodge could have given you.

This is especially true of higher levels where ek gives you more attacks.

As a sorcerer you have the ability to quicken these and have them up on the first round.

There’s a pretty cool ek shadow sorc build with Xbow expert and SS. Lots of misty step and overwatch catchphrases.

That said: I have seen a straight Dex EK do just fine running hasten, I’m sure a few levels of sorcerer won’t harm that

[Garresh]

Have you considered playing as a Bladesinger? 1 level in fighter for proficiency and archery fighting style. Variant Human hand crossbow bladesinger means that you can use bladesong to increase your concentration saves. Hand crossbows technically don't break the bladesong, and you get extra attack at 7. So you'd have 3 attacks normally at 7, but can shoot up to 4 attacks with haste and song. You'll have less haste at first, but you can sustain it much more easily, have EVEN MORE speed, and get better attack speed overall.

[Garfunion]

Have you considered playing as a Bladesinger? 1 level in fighter for proficiency and archery fighting style. Variant Human hand crossbow bladesinger means that you can use bladesong to increase your concentration saves. Hand crossbows technically don't break the bladesong, and you get extra attack at 7. So you'd have 3 attacks normally at 7, but can shoot up to 4 attacks with haste and song. You'll have less haste at first, but you can sustain it much more easily, have EVEN MORE speed, and get better attack speed overall.
Second this.

Wizards can also recover spell slots for extra haste casting. The wizard also gets spells like magic weapon and flame arrows for that extra arcane archery. You can also add one level of War cleric for divine favor spell.

[Temperjoke]

Multi-classing with Fighter gives you Light and Medium armor proficiency, so you could go with whichever Sorcerer you want in the end, really. It also gives you martial weapon proficiency, so you could go with whatever race you want. Just start Sorcerer, then take a level of Fighter for your proficiencies, then back to Sorcerer until you're ready to fully level Fighter.