warlock spell choices

[KorvinStarmast]

Picking the spells to support our party and having options has me a bit puzzled.

The Celestial warlock Pact of Tome will join the party at level 6. I am still pondering over armor of shadows / agonizing blast as a stylistic choice. The party has solid martials, + cleric +wizard; Damage Optimization is not called for.

Invocations locked in: Repelling Blast + Book of Ancient Secrets (for rituals)

Cantrips chosen and given (with an eye on being flexible) that include Celestial, pact, and Warlock choices
Thorn Whip, Eldritch Blast, Shocking Grasp, Light, Sacred Flame, Guidance, Prestidigitation (that last on has some RP needs that are being met)

Spells so far:
Hex, mirror image, shatter, Hold Person, Flaming Sphere, Revivify, Fly.
But I am not sure I like that line up. Note: I have seen very few Xanathar's spells in action at our table.

I've looked at a number of Hadar spells, and a few others, but I am trying to "be ready for anything"

The only "locked in stone" spell is Revivify. There is an RP reason for that. All others are up for grabs.
The progression has to be preserved. Trade in / out one per level up. So can't have more than 2 spells from the Third level list. (per a discussion with the DM)

Eilgible spells: PHB + Xanathar's. DM doesn't care for SCAG.

Question: what are my best spell choices with the above constraints?

Choice is somewhat constrained by a need to do fire damage (in case the wizard doesn't show up) and have Revive if Cleric does not show up.

(rituals so far in Book of Ancient Secrets are Alarm and Find Familiar; DM has still not determined if I found any more between level 3 and 6, so assume none unless otherwise I get lucky. )
Suggestions for your favorite rituals are solicited.

PS: history with this DM is that the party gets attacked a lot during rests. So alarm was a must.

[Dr. Cliché]

Flaming Sphere is the spell that really sticks out to me on that list. I'd personally consider swapping it out for Spiritual Weapon, which does similar damage (but with a far less resisted type) and doesn't require Concentration to maintain.

Out of interest, why do you need to do fire damage?

[KorvinStarmast]

Flaming Sphere is the spell that really sticks out to me on that list. I'd personally consider swapping it out for Spiritual Weapon, which does similar damage (but with a far less resisted type) and doesn't require Concentration to maintain. I am looking at the Celestial Warlock list and don't see spiritual weapon. Que?

Spell Level Spells

1st Cure Wounds, Guiding Bolt
2nd Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration
3rd Daylight, Revivify
4th Guardian of Faith, Wall of Fire
5th Flame Strike, Greater Restoration

Out of interest, why do you need to do fire damage? I don't if the wizard shows up. He's got firebolt and fireball. Trouble is, he isn't always there.

For me, it's a versatility issue and I get my cha bonus on it each round. Maybe I should take firebolt, not thorn whip, and then get Hadar's Pulling Invocation at my next invocation chance , 7th level.

Grasp of Hadar
Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast cantrip
Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your Eldritch Blast, you can move that creature in a straight line 10 feet closer to you. That might do what I want thorn whip to do, which is a little control to help the martials.

Radiant Soul
At 6th level ... and when you Cast a Spell that deals radiant or fire damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its Targets. (And monsters that regen usually don't if there is a burn). But I am still short on cold damage, and myabe should take ray of frost or frostbite instead of thorn whip.

[Dr. Cliché]

I am looking at the Celestial Warlock list and don't see spiritual weapon. Que?

Oh nevermind. For some reason I was confusing the celestial warlock with the celestial sorcerer (which can freely choose spells from the cleric list).

Sorry about that.




I don't if the wizard shows up. He's got firebolt and fireball. Trouble is, he isn't always there.

For me, it's a versatility issue and I get my cha bonus on it each round. Maybe I should take firebolt, not thorn whip, and then get Hadar's Pulling Invocation at my next invocation chance , 7th level.
That might do what I want thorn whip to do, which is a little control to help the martials.
(And monsters that regen usually don't if there is a burn). But I am still short on cold damage, and myabe should take ray of frost or frostbite instead of thorn whip.

I probably wouldn't take Firebolt simply because it's just a worse version of Eldeitch Blast 99% of the time.

If you want some anti-regeneration tech, you could consider swapping out Sacred Flame (which is pretty awful at the best of times) for Chill Touch. That would give you another damage type (Necrotic), plus anti-healing/regeneration tech.

In terms of fire, you might be better off waiting a level and taking Wall of Fire when you hit Lv7. That I think would be much more useful as it can do good damage whilst also giving you a battlefield control ability. There's also the possibility of pushing enemies into it via Repelling Blast.

[ad_hoc]

You can't have more than 2 3rd level spells at 6th level? Should be 4.

You're not going to want to use your lower level spells very often. Even with scaling they're not going to be as good as your high level ones.

Fly isn't great for this reason, but as 1 of 4 spells it isn't terrible either.

You want to mostly either have spells that have a big effect in battle or can be cast out of battle before a rest. Remove Curse is a good one to have for example.

Hunger of Hadar is a good choice. So are Fear and Hypnotic Pattern. I would definitely take one of those.

Major Image is great for options outside of combat.

Once you hit 7th level be prepared to not use your 3rd level spells very often.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh nevermind. For some reason I was confusing the celestial warlock with the celestial sorcerer (which can freely choose spells from the cleric list).
no worries. I never do stuff like that, except when I do. :smallbiggrin:

I probably wouldn't take Firebolt simply because it's just a worse version of Eldeitch Blast 99% of the time. Yeah, there is that, though I do get my cha bonus on it. But I don't want it, honestly.

If you want some anti-regeneration tech, you could consider swapping out Sacred Flame (which is pretty awful at the best of times) for Chill Touch.
Can't. Sacred Flame comes free with Celestial, I can't swap it out. Though Chill touch is not a bad idea in general.


That would give you another damage type (Necrotic), plus anti-healing/regeneration tech. Good point.


In terms of fire, you might be better off waiting a level and taking Wall of Fire when you hit Lv7. That I think would be much more useful as it can do good damage whilst also giving you a battlefield control ability. There's also the possibility of pushing enemies into it via Repelling Blast. Great plan. I'll keep Flaming Sphere until then and swap out at level 7.
Now I have to decide; Thorn whip or Chill Touch?
Back to the pondering seat ...
Thanks. :smallsmile:

[cZak]

I've just started a level 1 of this same build.

We have some martial types in the group (Fighter, Rogue, Paladin) and I was planning on picking a lot of control type abilities; Thorn whip, Repelling blast, etc... and setting up AoE to put bad guys in or just manipulate the bad guys into position for the martial types. Yanking an enemy caster in the midst of the PC's with Big Sticks seems hilarious

But there's not a lot of AoE's for the warlock. Hunger of Hadar seems it. Hoping the wizard with our group can coordinate with my tactics thoughts

I'm curious about ideas seeing your character concept, and stealing some

[Keravath]

The big constraint on warlocks is two spells slots. They may come back on a short rest but you only have two to spend in any combat and then you have to rely on cantrips. You are looking for some versatility in your spell slots but for this reason I would take agonizing blast as an invocation since the best way to deal with opponents when you aren't concentrating on a spell is to help your party get rid of them as fast as possible.

Also, since warlock spell slots are only ever the highest level, there is rarely any reason to have lower spell spells unless they have a particularly utility when upcast. (e.g. hold person or fly can affect multiple targets)

As a 6th level warlock, you gain one 3rd level spell at 5th level and can swap one at the same time giving you two 3rd level spells, then at 6th you learn another spell and can swap one. Based on the book you should be able to have up to four 3rd level spells. This is the same as a wizard who would get to pick two at 5th and two at 6th along with whatever else they find and copy. A sorcerer or bard could also have up to 4, 3rd level spells at 6th level. Perhaps your DM has a reason for limiting your character in this way but unless they have also reduced the spells for wizards and others, I don't really see why they should pick on the warlock.

As for spells, some other options to consider:

Hypnotic Pattern - can completely change an encounter depending on how the saves go - I would put this one on your list

These are more situational

Counterspell - someone should have this, the warlock is not ideal due to limited spell slots but stopping opposing spells can be a very important role to fill
Darkness - especially if you decide to use Darkness+Devils Sight invocation (however, Darkness is also very effective against gaze attacks, attackers with advantage (e.g. barbarians), stopping opposing spell casters from targeting individuals, and a few other uses)

[rbstr]

I would only take Sacred Flame and Eldritch blast as attack cantrips. Maybe add shocking grasp if you have issues with getting stuck in melee. You really don't need many.

As others have said, you should definitely forget lower-level spells for higher-level ones as much as is practical. I wouldn't have both Hex and flaming sphere - you can only concentrate on one.
don't worry about the flame damage bonus much. It's really not a very good feature.

Also, I'm really unconvinced by the Book and Ancient Secrets. With the cleric and wizard in the party that seems redundant. Plus you've got to find and transcribe them. I guess that means you might get the Wizard's rituals at least.

[MirrorDarkly]

I love my Celestial Warlock.

Spells, powers and combos I've found to be amazing.

Mask of Many Faces. Who do I want to be right this second?

Flaming Sphere at lower levels. This is partially due to us having a character in the party that has Sentinel and Boombing Blade.

Devel's Sight + Darkness/Shadow of Moil + Elven Accuracy. Almost never miss, hard to hit, many spells cannot target me.

Hypnotic Pattern. Just amazing, can change whole encounters and give you options besides murder all the things.

Repelling Blast. Pushing anything around at will with no save is OP as hell. Even more so if there is a harzard.

This brings up ways to create hazards. Create Bonfire: not amazing but a cantrip and fire on demand had so many uses outside of combat.

Sickening Radiance: It's a Con save for no damage but they are forced to save when you push them in and again at the start of their turn.

Guardian of Faith. Surprisingly powerful. It's damage is not amazing but it blocks movement, acts as cover and is immune to damage. It also lasts 8 hours without concentration.

The very first season after I got it we had to defend a village and had a day to prepare. Seven short rests later I had 14 of these things on the map, something I don't think even a level 20 cleric could duplicate!

It changed what DM had planned to be at best a pyrrhic victory into a crushing win.

Gift of the Ever Living Ones (Pact of Chain only): Almost doubles the effectiveness of any dice based healing on yourself. More importantly let's you know exactly how many resources need to be spent to get the desired effect.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can't have more than 2 3rd level spells at 6th level? Should be 4. That's not how my DM (my brother) read it, I'll get back to him. Thanks. He may stand his ground, hopefully not.

Even with scaling they're not going to be as good as your high level ones. I noticed that.

Fly isn't great for this reason, but as 1 of 4 spells it isn't terrible either.
As it goes up in level, I can put another party member up in the air. So I may keep that.

Remove Curse is a good one to have for example. Yeah, I keep thinking about that one, particularly as our RP theme fits this well. The Life Cleric can prepare it whenever he wants, but if he's not there ... should I have it? Good question.

Hunger of Hadar is a good choice. So are Fear and Hypnotic Pattern. I would definitely take one of those. Hunger of Hadar I have mixed feelings about; in a group it may not work as well as if I am solo somewhere. And that Con save for Shatter is a down side.

Major Image is great for options outside of combat. Illusions are tricky, though my brother does like to play illusionist gnomes when he's a player, I'll need to revisit this one.

Once you hit 7th level be prepared to not use your 3rd level spells very often. But I'll only get to pick one and replace another one. And I keep thinking about counterspell.

We have some martial types in the group (Fighter, Rogue, Paladin) and I was planning on picking a lot of control type abilities; Thorn whip, Repelling blast, etc... and setting up AoE to put bad guys in or just manipulate the bad guys into position for the martial types. Yanking an enemy caster in the midst of the PC's with Big Sticks seems hilarious That is a key concept for my build also.

But there's not a lot of AoE's for the warlock. Hunger of Hadar seems it. Hoping the wizard with our group can coordinate with my tactics thoughts Our wizard prefers blasting, though I did convince him to take Slow when he leveled up to 6. Not sure what his other choice is.

I'm curious about ideas seeing your character concept, and stealing some Please do. :smallsmile:

I would take agonizing blast as an invocation since the best way to deal with opponents when you aren't concentrating on a spell is to help your party get rid of them as fast as possible. I keep going back to this, but so far I am not sold on me being a major damage dealer.

utility when upcast. (e.g. hold person or fly can affect multiple targets) Yep, that's why I got them: HP and Fly. And I think we'll still be facing a lot of humanoids for the next few levels.

As a 6th level warlock, you gain one 3rd level spell at 5th level and can swap one at the same time giving you two 3rd level spells, then at 6th you learn another spell and can swap one. Based on the book you should be able to have up to four 3rd level spells. As above, I'll discuss this with my brother. I think he'll see it that way once I walk him through it. Note: this is the first warlock our group has ever seen / played since my Archfey/Chainlock in my nephews campaign that ended well before I was hoping that it would.

Hypnotic Pattern - can completely change an encounter depending on how the saves go - I would put this one on your list Hmm, tasty.
These are more situational
Counterspell - someone should have this, the warlock is not ideal due to limited spell slots but stopping opposing spells can be a very important role to fill
Will discuss with our cleric and wizard before I make a choice.

Darkness - especially if you decide to use Darkness+Devils Sight invocation
I don't have devils sight. That was a conscious choice.

I would only take Sacred Flame and Eldritch blast as attack cantrips. Maybe add shocking grasp if you have issues with getting stuck in melee.
My familiar an deliver it in a pinch.
You really don't need many.

As others have said, you should definitely forget lower-level spells for higher-level ones as much as is practical. I wouldn't have both Hex and flaming sphere - you can only concentrate on one.
don't worry about the flame damage bonus much. It's really not a very good feature.

[quote] Plus you've got to find and transcribe them. I guess that means you might get the Wizard's rituals at least. Yes indeed. I intend to, I think he's getting LTH as his second 6th level spell. I should also be able to learn Ceremony from the cleric. And maybe glyph of warding.

I love my Celestial Warlock.
Mask of Many Faces. Who do I want to be right this second?
In a different campaign, I'd be all over this. But my DM is not doing a very high intrigue campaign. (sadly)

Flaming Sphere at lower levels. This is partially due to us having a character in the party that has Sentinel and Boombing Blade.Ooh, nice, but we don't.

Devel's Sight + Darkness/Shadow of Moil + Elven Accuracy. Elven Accuracy feat isn't gonna happen any time soon. I'll need to review Shadow of Moil.

Hypnotic Pattern. Just amazing, can change whole encounters and give you options besides murder all the things. As above, I'll take a look.
Repelling Blast. Pushing anything around at will with no save is OP as hell. Even more so if there is a harzard.
Yeah, and the Grasp of Hadar allows me to grab stuff that is trying to get away, or I Can Pull Enemies Off Of Their Flying Mounts. (120 foot range). I can grab flying enemies and pull them toward us.

This brings up ways to create hazards. Create Bonfire: not amazing but a cantrip and fire on demand had so many uses outside of combat. Tempting, but I have prestidigitation to start fires. This is an RP choice that is tied to my back story.

Sickening Radiance: It's a Con save for no damage but they are forced to save when you push them in and again at the start of their turn. 4th level?

Guardian of Faith. Surprisingly powerful. It's damage is not amazing but it blocks movement, acts as cover and is immune to damage. It also lasts 8 hours without concentration. Not yet.

The very first season after I got it we had to defend a village and had a day to prepare. Seven short rests later I had 14 of these things on the map, something I don't think even a level 20 cleric could duplicate! Woot! :smallsmile:

Gift of the Ever Living Ones (Pact of Chain only): Almost doubles the effectiveness of any dice based healing on yourself. More importantly let's you know exactly how many resources need to be spent to get the desired effect. Going tome pact for two reasons: the wizard's familiars (he also has "flock of familiars" home brew spell that our DM allowed) means I don't want to out shine him with familiar shenannigans. My familiar is a hawk so far.

Also, I wanted to get a lot of different cantrips for flexibility. That is an express purpose of this build. Almost got magic stone.

[KorvinStarmast]

New Spell list, rough, based on your feedback. Thanks to all for the neat ideas and the points on spells.

At the moment, I am content with my cantrips ... 3 Tome, 3 Warlock, two from Celestial.
Minor Illusion, Chill Touch, Eldritch Blast, Shocking Grasp, Light, Sacred Flame, Guidance, Prestidigitation (that last one has some RP needs that are being met).
I'll take the Grasp of Hadar at 7th for an invocation so that I can pull stuff around.
Note: Shocking grasp may not make the final cut.

Spells old:
Hex, mirror image, shatter, Hold Person, Flaming Sphere, Revivify, Fly.
Spells: New
Mirror Image, Shatter, Hold Person, Revivify, Fly, Remove Curse, Fear

Still considering Hypnotic Pattern and Hunger of Hadar. Hypnotic Pattern instead of fear might do the trick.

Thank you to everyone! :smallsmile:
My problem with Hypnotic Pattern is the issue of Friendly Fire. If I were an evoker who could sculpt a spell, or a Sorcerer, this would be a lot more awesome.

Hypnotic Pattern
Concentration, up to 1 minute

You create a twisting pattern of colors that weaves through the air inside a 30-foot cube within range. The pattern appears for a moment and vanishes. Each creature in the area who sees the pattern must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature becomes charmed for the duration. While charmed by this spell, the creature is incapacitated and has a speed of 0. The spell ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor. I sure like that purple part.
With our Fighter, Barbarian and Rogue getting attacks with advantage / auto crit on incapacitated foes, even for one round, there's some bloodspattering goodness to that.
Or if I just want to stop a flying enemy ... speed = 0 ... tempting.

[ad_hoc]

That's not how my DM (my brother) read it, I'll get back to him. Thanks. He may stand his ground, hopefully not.

Could you elaborate on why?

You get to pick one spell and you get to replace an older spell with a new one. That's 2 new spells every level.


As it goes up in level, I can put another party member up in the air. So I may keep that.

But, how good is it to fly? What is that doing for you? Keep in mind, you need to have your spells have a big impact on the game. There are situations where Fly will be worth casting, they just won't come up very often.


Yeah, I keep thinking about that one, particularly as our RP theme fits this well. The Life Cleric can prepare it whenever he wants, but if he's not there ... should I have it? Good question.

If someone else can have it then, no, not really.



Hunger of Hadar I have mixed feelings about; in a group it may not work as well as if I am solo somewhere. And that Con save for Shatter is a down side.

It's a big AoE spell. You should always have 1 ready. Which one you have is a matter of taste. Shatter is worse though as it is a 2nd level spell (even upcast).

HoH, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern - choose one. My personal choice is for HoH. At 7th level replace with a better AoE.



Illusions are tricky, though my brother does like to play illusionist gnomes when he's a player, I'll need to revisit this one.

Another one of those spells you won't use often, but when it is useful it is very useful. Not a combat spell.


But I'll only get to pick one and replace another one. And I keep thinking about counterspell.

You need to think about how effective it will be for the spell slot it is using up. If you can identify an an enemy spellcaster as a major threat then it is probably worth countering their opening spell which might swing the battle. If you do take it then I caution against using it on minor spellcasters. It isn't worth the slot.

Remember, the Warlock's strength is that their spellslots are very powerful. Make sure you use them that way.

Try to pick 2 combat spells that you can go to regularly. One AoE and one other. Unfortunately the base Warlock doesn't have a great targeted 3rd level spell. Fear might actually be decent here as your 2nd combat spell as it has some targeting to it and can be easier cast in a tight environment. And then your other 2 spells are more situational. In your case you are taking Revivify so you have 1 other. Could be Counterspell or Fly.


My problem with Hypnotic Pattern is the issue of Friendly Fire. If I were an evoker who could sculpt a spell, or a Sorcerer, this would be a lot more awesome.


That is why you take 2 combat spells.

When it does work and hits a lot of enemies then it is awesome and you will be glad to have it.

[rbstr]

Fear is a good pick.
Hunger of Hadar is arguably better than Shatter as a pure damage spell even if you drop it after a single round:
It covers a much, much larger area.
It deals an automatic 2d6 with no save. A third level shatter is dealing avg.18 on a con save that's very likely to halve it to avg.9, HoH is doing at least avg.7 always.

Then, because it's persistent, it can deal even more if you can do some battlefield control (like repelling blast). Like the fighter grabbing someone and holding them in it.
Plus it's got all sorts of utility in creating a massive hole of darkness that you can use as cover or whatnot.

I'd also suggest thunderstep or misty step instead of mirror image. Mirror image is a whole action to cast, and while I think it's pretty good (and actually scales well, since it actually scales with enemy power), I don't think it's a spell to keep on a squishy-caster type character. It's just not a high-leverage spell unless you intend to take hits.

[KorvinStarmast]

Could you elaborate on why? My brother is the DM. I discuss stuff with him, and then he makes the ruling. As of this moment, that was his ruling. If he reconsiders in light of my walking him through how it would work organically, so much the better.

But, how good is it to fly?
In the current campaign, since a lot of the encounters have included outdoor environment, very good.

What is that doing for you? Nothing, since this character has not joined the party yet. I am planning ahead.

Keep in mind, you need to have your spells have a big impact on the game. There are situations where Fly will be worth casting, they just won't come up very often. In our campaign, so far it's been handy for the character who can fly. But he uses an item to do it. Broom. If we und up under a mountain or under ground or in a bunch of temples, it might not pay off. Not sure what the future holds.
A note on Revivify: if it's the cleric who dies, I need to get him back up. There are some group dynamics reasons for that, since my cleric is "retiring."
It's a big AoE spell. You should always have 1 ready. Which one you have is a matter of taste. Shatter is worse though as it is a 2nd level spell (even upcast). HoH, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern - choose one. My personal choice is for HoH. At 7th level replace with a better AoE. My new list has 4 3rd level spells at the moment (pending agreement by DM) so I really don't have room for another 3rd. Wall of fire is looking good.

Another one of those spells you won't use often, but when it is useful it is very useful. Not a combat spell. The last session I DM'd I had a Lamia use it. Can you say "misdirection"? :smallsmile: yep. It can be a neat spell.

You need to think about how effective it will be for the spell slot it is using up. If you can identify an an enemy spellcaster as a major threat then it is probably worth countering their opening spell which might swing the battle. If you do take it then I caution against using it on minor spellcasters. It isn't worth the slot. Yeah, with two slots, choosing to burn on for that is a significant decision.

Try to pick 2 combat spells that you can go to regularly. One AoE and one other. Unfortunately the base Warlock doesn't have a great targeted 3rd level spell.
Fear might actually be decent here as your 2nd combat spell as it has some targeting to it and can be easier cast in a tight environment.
And then your other 2 spells are more situational. In your case you are taking Revivify so you have 1 other. Could be Counterspell or Fly. Yeah, I went with Fear. Our martials can wreck whomever does not run away.

Thanks for the thoughts and insights. :smallsmile: