How Powerful Is The Paragon Templete Really Is?

[Bartmanhomer]

How powerful is a paragon template really is? I seen the template and it's gives a heavy boost to all stats and additional bonus for special abilities. :eek:

[Afghanistan]

Well? It depends. For the low, low cost of a +11 level adjustment, you get:


Maximized HP per hit dice and bonus HP equal to 12 * your HD.
You gain 3 times all of your movement speeds.
You bump up your AC by 29, which is reduced by at minimum to a +24 if you are being touch attacked.
+25 bonus to all of your attack rolls meaning you are VERY unlikely to miss.
All of your Special Attacks gain a "+13 insight bonus" for some reason. Not even sure if this is supposed to do anything or does anything. Does it mean DC? Who knows!
All of your Spell and Psi-like abilities (fun fact: Psionics are all Psi-like abilities) get bumped up by 15, and you gain Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3 times per day at 15th level.
Fire and Cold resistance 10, damage reduction 10/epic, Spell Resistance CR +25 (why?), Fast Healing 20, and all of your weapons are Epic for the purposes of DR.
+10 bonus to all of your saves meaning you are probably not failing anything short of a natural 1
+15 to all of your ability scores (again, why?)
+10 to all of your skill checks.
A free bonus feat.



For a PC? Yes, I would say that is a little powerful. Why anyone would ever want this template is absolutely beyond me.

[Falontani]

Honestly, with the la or the cr bump it isn't that powerful. But everything that it grants is huge, and making it playable is absolutely absurd. I could see a savage progression for it being worthwhile in some cases. But as is it has:
Net +90 to ability scores
Net +17 (10 + ability score improvements) to saves (insight bonus so while not stacking it is a rare bonus)
Net +17 to skills (competence is a fairly common bonus type)
Spell Resistance 25+cr (One of if not the best spell resistance in the game, although spell resistance in and of itself is a mixed bag)
Fast healing 20 (is amazing)
DR/epic is almost dr/-
Net +19 hp/hd which all become maxed out
3x normal movement speed is insane
+12 insight (a rare bonus) to ac
+12 luck (nearly unheard of bonus) to ac pushes you to nearly unhittable for a large portion of the game
+25 luck bonus to all attack rolls
+20 luck (I haven't heard of a luck bonus to damage) to melee and ranged attack rolls is insane
+13 to all of your special attacks
+15 to your caster level
And 3 spell likes usable three times per day each.

Any one of these abilities are worth at least 1-3 LA by themselves.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well? It depends. For the low, low cost of a +11 level adjustment, you get:


Maximized HP per hit dice and bonus HP equal to 12 * your HD.
You gain 3 times all of your movement speeds.
You bump up your AC by 29, which is reduced by at minimum to a +24 if you are being touch attacked.
+25 bonus to all of your attack rolls meaning you are VERY unlikely to miss.
All of your Special Attacks gain a "+13 insight bonus" for some reason. Not even sure if this is supposed to do anything or does anything. Does it mean DC? Who knows!
All of your Spell and Psi-like abilities (fun fact: Psionics are all Psi-like abilities) get bumped up by 15, and you gain Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3 times per day at 15th level.
Fire and Cold resistance 10, damage reduction 10/epic, Spell Resistance CR +25 (why?), Fast Healing 20, and all of your weapons are Epic for the purposes of DR.
+10 bonus to all of your saves meaning you are probably not failing anything short of a natural 1
+15 to all of your ability scores (again, why?)
+10 to all of your skill checks.
A free bonus feat.



For a PC? Yes, I would say that is a little powerful. Why anyone would ever want this template is absolutely beyond me.

Well I'll give you one reason: It's definitely comes in handy with a deity. :biggrin:

[RNightstalker]

It's totally imbalancing. It's something you add to a DM pet but it totally destroys any sense of scaling.

[Crichton]

It makes a pretty decent capstone to a character you're pretty much completely done with XP-based leveling for. Once you've gotten enough epic level stuff, finagle a way to get the template added, and call your character's progression finished.

[Afghanistan]

Well I'll give you one reason: It's definitely comes in handy with a deity. :biggrin:

Care to elaborate more on this subject? :smallconfused:

[Bartmanhomer]

Care to elaborate more on this subject? :smallconfused:

Well the paragon template fits very well with a deity. Knowing how powerful deities are on whatever DM put Deities to fight or not.

[Zancloufer]

Paragon is kind of bad. At a strict RAW level the boosts don't help that much vs just pure extra HD. It depends on the class/monster but it seems to work best on beat sticks better than casters in theory. Except beat stick monsters have insane RAW HD scaling. Here is a pair of Polar Bears I upped to CR 20, one with Paragon and one without. Due note the 3 missing feats for Paragon and 22 for the normal one though:


Polar Bear 72 HD
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 72d8+576 (864 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armour Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +54/+70
Attack: Claw +65 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +65 melee (1d8+12) and bite +60 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +46, Ref +40, Will +24
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -2*, Listen +37, Spot +38, Swim +21
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +22
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20


Polar Bear 12 HD Paragon
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+288 (384 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 90 ft.
Armour Class: 39 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight), touch 34, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Claw +46 melee (1d8+36)
Full Attack: 2 claws +46 melee (1d8+36) and bite +41 melee (2d6+28)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab (+42)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Epic, DR 10 Fire/Cold, Fast Healing 20, SR 45, SLAs: Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3/Day CL 15.
Saves: Fort +30, Ref +27, Will +22
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +30*, Listen +33, Spot +33, Swim +41, Survival +33
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +3
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20

I don't think the Paragon holds up. I mean it seems kinda even, until you realize the normal bear has something like 20 Epic feats it can spend . . .

[Crake]

Paragon is kind of bad. At a strict RAW level the boosts don't help that much vs just pure extra HD. It depends on the class/monster but it seems to work best on beat sticks better than casters in theory. Except beat stick monsters have insane RAW HD scaling. Here is a pair of Polar Bears I upped to CR 20, one with Paragon and one without. Due note the 3 missing feats for Paragon and 22 for the normal one though:


Polar Bear 72 HD
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 72d8+576 (864 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armour Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +54/+70
Attack: Claw +65 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +65 melee (1d8+12) and bite +60 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +46, Ref +40, Will +24
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -2*, Listen +37, Spot +38, Swim +21
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +22
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20


Polar Bear 12 HD Paragon
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+288 (384 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 90 ft.
Armour Class: 39 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight), touch 34, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Claw +46 melee (1d8+36)
Full Attack: 2 claws +46 melee (1d8+36) and bite +41 melee (2d6+28)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab (+42)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Epic, DR 10 Fire/Cold, Fast Healing 20, SR 45, SLAs: Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3/Day CL 15.
Saves: Fort +30, Ref +27, Will +22
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +30*, Listen +33, Spot +33, Swim +41, Survival +33
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +3
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20

I don't think the Paragon holds up. I mean it seems kinda even, until you realize the normal bear has something like 20 Epic feats it can spend . . .

The issue with this logic though, is that polar bears normally only scale to 12HD, which would make them ~CR5, creatures don't just infinitely scale up in HD. Thats the point of the paragon template, to enable lower level creatures to be used in a higher level campaign without breaking the core systems of the game.

Also, I don't know where people are getting this +11 level adjustment from, paragon template is LA -. It's not meant for players to use.

[Afghanistan]

Also, I don't know where people are getting this +11 level adjustment from, paragon template is LA -. It's not meant for players to use.

There is a section at the beginning of the Monster section of the Epic level Handbook (page 155 - 156) that states the various monsters in the ELH's ECL. The example creature is the Paragon Mindflayer (ECL 26). Mindflayers have an ECL of 15 by default, so it is just subtracting the ECL of the Mindflayer from the Paragon Mindflayer and you have the LA for the Paragon template.

[NontheistCleric]

The issue with this logic though, is that polar bears normally only scale to 12HD, which would make them ~CR5, creatures don't just infinitely scale up in HD. Thats the point of the paragon template, to enable lower level creatures to be used in a higher level campaign without breaking the core systems of the game.

Also, I don't know where people are getting this +11 level adjustment from, paragon template is LA -. It's not meant for players to use.

To get around the HD problem, give the first polar bear the Beast of Xvim template, which allow it to keep gaining HD as long as it has people to eat. Of course, the question then becomes 'is this template stronger than this other template' rather than 'is this template stronger than a simply advanced version of the base creature', but either way, Paragon does not come out on top.

It is not stated anywhere that Paragon is LA: -. People are probably getting LA +11 from the Epic Level Handbook's 26 ECL for the Paragon Mind Flayer, which is 11 above that of the standard mind flayer. On the other hand, the SRD and the actual template text actually give us 'Advancement: Same as the base creature', which would mean that by RAW, this template doesn't increase LA at all. It's contradicted by the ELH's table, of course, but as we all know, text trumps table...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember, any creature with the paragon template (that isn't one side of a gestalt) is going to be absolutely crushed by spells like dictum and holy word.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, very technically speaking, the Advancement section of a statblock is rarely the end-all-be-all for such a creature. The existing statblock describes the standard member of the species, and the Advancement section acknowledges where most of the rest rise above the basic package, but there's nothing strictly illegal about a 50 HD Polar Bear...merely extremely improbably in-universe.

That being said, there's some creatures within the monster manual (the oversized vermin, I think?) that can very well start with epic-feat-legal HD and can get upwards of...50ish, 60ish HD? So if you were wanting to make a comparison without having to run afoul of breaking the Advancement section, that'd be an opportunity to do so.

[tyckspoon]

Remember, any creature with the paragon template (that isn't one side of a gestalt) is going to be absolutely crushed by spells like dictum and holy word.

Subject to spell resistance, and a Paragon Whatever has a minimum SR of 40 (scaled based on CR at CR +25, for some weird reason, and the template itself is CR +15.) That's a fairly solid defense against anybody who isn't engaging in CL-stacking shenanigans - certainly enough to not just say 'oh, anybody with Cleric 7 spells can destroy it.'

[NontheistCleric]

Subject to spell resistance, and a Paragon Whatever has a minimum SR of 40 (scaled based on CR at CR +25, for some weird reason, and the template itself is CR +15.) That's a fairly solid defense against anybody who isn't engaging in CL-stacking shenanigans - certainly enough to not just say 'oh, anybody with Cleric 7 spells can destroy it.'

You don't necessarily have to be using CL-stacking; Assay Resistance and True Casting used together will give a +20 bonus on the check, and if you're using Cleric 7 spells, you probably already have at least CL 13, probably more if you're fighting the Paragon Whatever at a level ostensibly appropriate to its CR. Add in feats like Spell Penetration, a not unreasonable pick for many casters, and the gap is narrowed even further.

Of course, most people with Cleric 7 spells will not also have default access to True Casting (as it's not a Cleric spell), but Divine Magician or other list-expanding methods can easily fix that.

[Afghanistan]

You don't necessarily have to be using CL-stacking; Assay Resistance and True Casting used together will give a +20 bonus on the check, and if you're using Cleric 7 spells, you probably already have at least CL 13, probably more if you're fighting the Paragon Whatever at a level ostensibly appropriate to its CR. Add in feats like Spell Penetration, a not unreasonable pick for many casters, and the gap is narrowed even further.

Of course, most people with Cleric 7 spells will not also have default access to True Casting (as it's not a Cleric spell), but Divine Magician or other list-expanding methods can easily fix that.

Even more so you can probably stuff in Fortify Spell and Divine Metamagic if you are hard designing around the idea of just blowing everything up with Holy Word/Dictum.



Source
Modifier


Base
+13


Assay Spell Resistance
+10


True Casting
+10


Spell Penetration
+2 (CL check only)


Fortify Spell +4 spell levels
+8


Total
41 (+43 for breaking SR)



You can easily break anything with a HD of sub 40 and a SR of sub 42. That said, Arcane Mastery requires Arcane spellcasting (obviously), so a single dip into an Arcane Spellcaster gets you that, but you can also probably do something like Cleric 5 / Dweomerkeeper 8 and be fin- oh you have Supernatural Spell you don't care.

[hamishspence]

Also, very technically speaking, the Advancement section of a statblock is rarely the end-all-be-all for such a creature. The existing statblock describes the standard member of the species, and the Advancement section acknowledges where most of the rest rise above the basic package, but there's nothing strictly illegal about a 50 HD Polar Bear...merely extremely improbably in-universe.

I can think of a few creatures that really ought to exist regardless of the Advancement rules.

Most notably, Medium Crocodiles advanced to Large size.

As it stands, they're capped at 5HD Medium:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm

with the next size up being 7HD Huge:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm

But in real life, the average male adult saltwater crocodile or Nile crocodile probably qualifies as Large - weighing over 500 lb.

[PraxisVetli]

The Ryukanyr in Fiend Folio advances infinitely, if that helps the example.

[AvatarVecna]

I can think of a few creatures that really ought to exist regardless of the Advancement rules.

Most notably, Medium Crocodiles advanced to Large size.

As it stands, they're capped at 5HD Medium:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm

with the next size up being 7HD Huge:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm

But in real life, the average male adult saltwater crocodile or Nile crocodile probably qualifies as Large - weighing over 500 lb.

Wasn't making a statement on how well the game mimics IRL creatures, just making a statement on what the Advancement section says it is - which, like the alignment section, isn't an end-all-be-all description of the entire species, so you're allowed to go outside it if you want to, it's just that most of them fall within those guidelines.

[Bartmanhomer]

Paragon is kind of bad. At a strict RAW level the boosts don't help that much vs just pure extra HD. It depends on the class/monster but it seems to work best on beat sticks better than casters in theory. Except beat stick monsters have insane RAW HD scaling. Here is a pair of Polar Bears I upped to CR 20, one with Paragon and one without. Due note the 3 missing feats for Paragon and 22 for the normal one though:


Polar Bear 72 HD
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 72d8+576 (864 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armour Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +54/+70
Attack: Claw +65 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +65 melee (1d8+12) and bite +60 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +46, Ref +40, Will +24
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -2*, Listen +37, Spot +38, Swim +21
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +22
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20


Polar Bear 12 HD Paragon
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+288 (384 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 90 ft.
Armour Class: 39 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight), touch 34, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Claw +46 melee (1d8+36)
Full Attack: 2 claws +46 melee (1d8+36) and bite +41 melee (2d6+28)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab (+42)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Epic, DR 10 Fire/Cold, Fast Healing 20, SR 45, SLAs: Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3/Day CL 15.
Saves: Fort +30, Ref +27, Will +22
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +30*, Listen +33, Spot +33, Swim +41, Survival +33
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +3
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20

I don't think the Paragon holds up. I mean it seems kinda even, until you realize the normal bear has something like 20 Epic feats it can spend . . .

Wouldn't the Polar Bear be a magical beast and able to speak languages? :confused:

[hamishspence]

The template specifically says the Base Creature's type remains unchanged:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm

Presumably it's an exception to the general rule that animals max out at INT 2, and cannot have magical powers.

[Crake]

Paragon is kind of bad. At a strict RAW level the boosts don't help that much vs just pure extra HD. It depends on the class/monster but it seems to work best on beat sticks better than casters in theory. Except beat stick monsters have insane RAW HD scaling. Here is a pair of Polar Bears I upped to CR 20, one with Paragon and one without. Due note the 3 missing feats for Paragon and 22 for the normal one though:


Polar Bear 72 HD
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 72d8+576 (864 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armour Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +54/+70
Attack: Claw +65 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +65 melee (1d8+12) and bite +60 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +46, Ref +40, Will +24
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -2*, Listen +37, Spot +38, Swim +21
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +22
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20


Polar Bear 12 HD Paragon
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+288 (384 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 90 ft.
Armour Class: 39 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight), touch 34, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Claw +46 melee (1d8+36)
Full Attack: 2 claws +46 melee (1d8+36) and bite +41 melee (2d6+28)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab (+42)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Epic, DR 10 Fire/Cold, Fast Healing 20, SR 45, SLAs: Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3/Day CL 15.
Saves: Fort +30, Ref +27, Will +22
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +30*, Listen +33, Spot +33, Swim +41, Survival +33
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +3
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20

I don't think the Paragon holds up. I mean it seems kinda even, until you realize the normal bear has something like 20 Epic feats it can spend . . .

Also, side note, but animals advance at 3hd/CR, so if you could theoretically advance a polar bear infinitely, a 20CR polar bear would be 56 HD, not 72.


There is a section at the beginning of the Monster section of the Epic level Handbook (page 155 - 156) that states the various monsters in the ELH's ECL. The example creature is the Paragon Mindflayer (ECL 26). Mindflayers have an ECL of 15 by default, so it is just subtracting the ECL of the Mindflayer from the Paragon Mindflayer and you have the LA for the Paragon template.

As far as I can tell, that ECL is specifically for a paragon mindflayer, which seems to be a specific rule over the general rule of: no listed LA means LA -, so you could play a paragon mind flayer, but that's it.

[Malphegor]

Honestly it feels like the kind of template you throw on a character as a temporary shonen-style powerup, not as a long term thing. Like, a 'okay so I threw a boss that's suited to a level 19 party, so quickly pencil in the details of this template to make things balanced'

[Crake]

Honestly it feels like the kind of template you throw on a character as a temporary shonen-style powerup, not as a long term thing. Like, a 'okay so I threw a boss that's suited to a level 19 party, so quickly pencil in the details of this template to make things balanced'

That's not actually a half bad use for it, though I'd wanna do some playtesting beforehand to make sure it's actually balanced, because as we all know, the CR system is more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule.

[Falontani]

Add the following feats to the game!

Exalted Form [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Vow of Poverty, 8 HD
Benefit: Vow of Poverty stat bonuses are now perfection bonuses instead of enhancement
Special: Perfection bonuses stack with other perfection bonuses as if they were untyped.

Exalted Power [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to STR

Exalted Reflexes [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to DEX

Exalted Fortitude [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to CON

Exalted Mind [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to INT

Exalted Insight [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to WIS

Exalted Ego [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to CHA

Exalted Perfection [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Vow of Poverty, Exalted Form, Exalted Power, Exalted Reflexes, Exalted Fortitude, Exalted Mind, Exalted Insight, Exalted Ego and 20 HD
Benefits: Once per day you may grant yourself the Paragon template for one minute. After this time you lose all perfection bonuses for the next 1d6 days.


How's that? Seems like it would work as a capstone for giving up on your wealth

[GrayDeath]

Honestly it feels like the kind of template you throw on a character as a temporary shonen-style powerup, not as a long term thing. Like, a 'okay so I threw a boss that's suited to a level 19 party, so quickly pencil in the details of this template to make things balanced'

We actually did that in the one Epic Campaign that lasted longer than 2 Sessions.

The Orc Barbarian became THE ORC Barbarian up to 2 times per week/the Biggest Fights, for about 5 Minutes.

Worked well enough to "semibalance" the rest of the party (attention, we nixed Epic Spellcasting, so Casterss "only" got 10th Level slots).

[Remuko]

Add the following feats to the game!

Exalted Form [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Vow of Poverty, 8 HD
Benefit: Vow of Poverty stat bonuses are now perfection bonuses instead of enhancement
Special: Perfection bonuses stack with other perfection bonuses as if they were untyped.

Exalted Power [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to STR

Exalted Reflexes [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to DEX

Exalted Fortitude [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to CON

Exalted Mind [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to INT

Exalted Insight [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to WIS

Exalted Ego [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Exalted Form
Benefits: +2 perfection bonus to CHA

Exalted Perfection [Exalted]
Prerequisites: Vow of Poverty, Exalted Form, Exalted Power, Exalted Reflexes, Exalted Fortitude, Exalted Mind, Exalted Insight, Exalted Ego and 20 HD
Benefits: Once per day you may grant yourself the Paragon template for one minute. After this time you lose all perfection bonuses for the next 1d6 days.


How's that? Seems like it would work as a capstone for giving up on your wealth

Uh Wrong thread? This thread isnt about Vow of Poverty...

[Zancloufer]

Also, side note, but animals advance at 3hd/CR, so if you could theoretically advance a polar bear infinitely, a 20CR polar bear would be 56 HD, not 72.


You are correct, a mistake on my part. I did (correctly) recall Magical Beats being 3 HD/CR and Giants 4 HD/CR and must've assume that animal CR/HD would be more inline with giants than magical beasts.

Though on that note a CR 20 advanced Hill giant Paragon vs non-Paragon might have similar number differences.

Also @all the "you can't advance a bear to 40+ HD" ; first there is nothing against that in the rules and there are rules to stat such a creature. Second: Even if we ignore the "it just happened make it RAW legal" may I present: Wizard run tournament arc. Of death. Pretty sure doing ~4 equal CR duels to the death levels someone up guaranteed, so just do that ~200 times and you have your CR 20 bear.

[Falontani]

Uh Wrong thread? This thread isnt about Vow of Poverty...

Sorry, bad pun. It did relate though, a feat which requires 20 hd, sacred vow, vow of poverty, and 7 other homebrew exalted feats granted the paragon template... Sometimes, and not often, with a cost.

[animewatcha]

Would it be to powerful to be 20th level capstone for vow of poverty?

[pabelfly]

Would it be to powerful to be 20th level capstone for vow of poverty?

I don't know about a level 20 capstone that you don't have to pay any LA for. That's a huge boost in stats, AC, saves and spell resistance. You're going to be really hard to hit. And I don't know if that makes up for nineteen levels of Vow of Poverty either, that's quite a long time spent sucking badly.

[Quentinas]

I don't know about a level 20 capstone that you don't have to pay any LA for. That's a huge boost in stats, AC, saves and spell resistance. You're going to be really hard to hit. And I don't know if that makes up for nineteen levels of Vow of Poverty either, that's quite a long time spent sucking badly.

I know one that theorically you have paid your LA during the levels (or at least i think that this is because i don't arrive at these levels so much frequently) dread necromancer and his ability of level 20 that let him becomes a lich

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would it be to powerful to be 20th level capstone for vow of poverty?

Generally, yeah, probably.

I -might- allow it if a player wanted to do a VoP monk 20 that's already become a saint. If you've gone through that slog; being a dude seeking personal perfection for 20 levels on one of the least powerful career paths possible, I'd say you've just about earned it as a replacement for the Perfect Self class feature.

Give the party one last adventure before wrapping the campaign just so the player can enjoy it.

[Deadkitten]

Paragon is kind of bad. At a strict RAW level the boosts don't help that much vs just pure extra HD. It depends on the class/monster but it seems to work best on beat sticks better than casters in theory. Except beat stick monsters have insane RAW HD scaling. Here is a pair of Polar Bears I upped to CR 20, one with Paragon and one without. Due note the 3 missing feats for Paragon and 22 for the normal one though:


Polar Bear 72 HD
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 72d8+576 (864 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armour Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +54/+70
Attack: Claw +65 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +65 melee (1d8+12) and bite +60 melee (2d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +46, Ref +40, Will +24
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide -2*, Listen +37, Spot +38, Swim +21
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +22
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20


Polar Bear 12 HD Paragon
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+288 (384 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 90 ft.
Armour Class: 39 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight), touch 34, flat-footed 38
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Claw +46 melee (1d8+36)
Full Attack: 2 claws +46 melee (1d8+36) and bite +41 melee (2d6+28)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab (+42)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/Epic, DR 10 Fire/Cold, Fast Healing 20, SR 45, SLAs: Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility 3/Day CL 15.
Saves: Fort +30, Ref +27, Will +22
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +30*, Listen +33, Spot +33, Swim +41, Survival +33
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, +3
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 20

I don't think the Paragon holds up. I mean it seems kinda even, until you realize the normal bear has something like 20 Epic feats it can spend . . .

I am curious as to how many feats you have to burn to actually have relevant damage and AC for the cr 20 bear though. Like Attack bonuses and saves are better than the paragon, but they are both still in the "so high it doesn't matter' range that I would say they are about the same in power in those regards. but with an AC of 16 and that piddling damage I dont see how a HD advanced bear is going to do anything sans prudent use of its epic feats to anything close to PCs or anything near that CR. But im no expert, just curious. :smallbiggrin:

[Zancloufer]

I am curious as to how many feats you have to burn to actually have relevant damage and AC for the cr 20 bear though. Like Attack bonuses and saves are better than the paragon, but they are both still in the "so high it doesn't matter' range that I would say they are about the same in power in those regards. but with an AC of 16 and that piddling damage I dont see how a HD advanced bear is going to do anything sans prudent use of its epic feats to anything close to PCs or anything near that CR. But im no expert, just curious. :smallbiggrin:

Improved Natural Attack, Power Attack, (Great) Cleave and Improved Critical as non-epic feats, leaving us with 17 epic feats to take. Power attack helps alot as with +65 to hit the bear can easily eat 20-40 penaltiy to hit without missing much. Grab Devastating/Overwhelming Critical (which requires those non-epic feats) so that 1/10 of it's attack force a DC 59 save of die against things that can be crit. Penetrate Damage Reduction adamantine allows our bear to ignore most DR that people will have. Improved initiative and Dire charge so it doesn't always loose initiative and can full attack AND move on it's first round. Maybe endurance + Steadfast Determination to help will saves and avoid failing saves on a 1? Take Epic Damage reduction 10 times for DR 30/-?

I mean +65 2d6+12 damage 19-20x2 isn't that high but when it forces a SoD 1 in 10 hits and the bear in question has 800 HP and DR 30/- nothing short of an uber charger is going to go toe to toe with it and not risk getting splatted. Probably could find some better (epic) feats than 10 stacks of damage reduction though. . .