A small Sorcerer change idea

[Sindal]

How do yall feel about this addition to the sorceror's kit.

A) Starting at lvl 1, whenever you learn a spell that will cause damage, you may replace it's damage type indefinitely to a different listed below. The spell functions the same otherwise and uses the new element instead.

Bludgeoning
Cold
Fire
Piercing
Poison
Slashing
Lightning

B) at lvl 8 or 10, your list expands, including the rest of the damage types.

Necrotic
Radiant
Psychic
Force
Acid
Thunder

C)(possible addition) A changed spell can be reverted back to normal on levelup

It's not quite 'change on the fly' but at the very least it's a natural way to make spells with unpopular damage types more useful. It's change on acquire too, so it won't go into your SP tax.

Cool idea?
Dumb idea?

[Mongobear]

As a Metamagic option, it would fit better. (And this actually existed back in 3.X edition).

Maybe 1pt to change the element, but have it limited to Fire/Cold/Lightning/Acid/Thunder/Poison.

If you want the option for stuff like Radiant, Necrotic, or Psycho c, it'd need to be more.

[Spiritchaser]

Conceptually I think it’s great for some spells and much less great for others A wall of light that does thunder damage or a sleet storm that does psychic damage might be tough to explain in the context of their other effects.

I have balance concerns.

I don’t think radiant fireballs in the hands of sorcerers will break the game but it’s potentially a significant buff, particularly in some campaigns.

Now: sorcerers aren’t bad, but as casters they do have some headroom for a modest buff as compared to other full casters. Personally this isn’t what I’d buff but if you wanted to try this I’d suggest:

1: label spells you want to permit. Pick the ones that make sense.
2: only permit a limited number of spells like this. Maybe one per 2 or 3 sorcerer levels maximum, but not proficiency bonus. Something that ramps with sorcerer level. This would significantly reduce any MC abuse, but should still be plenty for a sorcerer.
3: make an active decision about how these work with other class features in MC situations

If in doubt, talk to the players and give it a try. Good luck.

[Arkhios]

Conceptually, the idea is solid, but I have to agree there are some stumbling blocks as well.

For example, some spells that deal damage also have a rider effect that's closely related to the damage type itself.

To name a few:

Ray of Frost. Not only does it cold damage, but it also slows the target down.
Thunderclap. Thunder as a damage type is basically just so loud noise that it hurts. That's why it's reasonable to assume the sound can be heard relatively far.
In the case of Thunderwave, it's not far from truth that a loud enough noise can actually move targets physically.
Poison. Poison is not only a damage type, it carries the poisoned condition as a bonus.

There are more, of course, but I'm sure you get the idea.

That's why I'd actually pair specific damage types with respectful riders (such as slowing with cold, sound and/or push with thunder, poisoned condition with poison, etc.), and change the original rider along with the damage if the altered spell in question also has a rider. On the contrary, if the original spell doesn't have a rider, then the change shouldn't add one either.

[Kane0]

Cool idea, which i’ve seen in metamagic form before.
What problem is it addressing though?

[Sindal]

Cool idea, which i’ve seen in metamagic form before.
What problem is it addressing though?

The fact that most people consider sorcerers slightly weaker than their caster cousins and could use an extra 'something'?
Not to outshine them, but to make the difference more noticeable


Conceptually, the idea is solid, but I have to agree there are some stumbling blocks as well.

For example, some spells that deal damage also have a rider effect that's closely related to the damage type itself.

To name a few:

Ray of Frost. Not only does it cold damage, but it also slows the target down.
Thunderclap. Thunder as a damage type is basically just so loud noise that it hurts. That's why it's reasonable to assume the sound can be heard relatively far.
In the case of Thunderwave, it's not far from truth that a loud enough noise can actually move targets physically.
Poison. Poison is not only a damage type, it carries the poisoned condition as a bonus.

There are more, of course, but I'm sure you get the idea.

That's why I'd actually pair specific damage types with respectful riders (such as slowing with cold, sound and/or push with thunder, poisoned condition with poison, etc.), and change the original rider along with the damage if the altered spell in question also has a rider. On the contrary, if the original spell doesn't have a rider, then the change shouldn't add one either.

I don't personally see a problem with changing the damage type but keeping what the rider does the same. If your magic is designed to harm and debilitate people, any 'damage type' hinders people

Lets take a few examples:
•Ray of frost:
It's cold damage and it slows people down. That makes sense.
Let say we change teh cold to lightning damage. The person is so shell shocked by the blast that their locomotion is hampered, slowing them down.

•Ray of sickness
Does poison damage. Inflicts poisoned to the person. Logical. A poisoned creature has disadvantage on Attack rolls and Ability Checks.
Lets change it to ...bludgeoning. Inflicts bludgeoning, still poisons target. The ray has so much concussive force that it winds the person, making them feel sick to their stomach.

•Shatter
Shatter does aoe thunder damage. A creature made of inorganic material such as stone, crystal, or metal has disadvantage on this saving throw.
How about...fire. Aoe fire damage. The burst of flame energy is so hot it has smelting properties, making organic minerals unstable.

See?

If anyone ever asks the sorcerer "Wait, how are you doing that. That's not how that spell is supposed to work"
They can just reply "I dunno. I wasn't taught the way it's supposed to work. It's magic"

[Arkhios]

Cool idea, which i’ve seen in metamagic form before.
What problem is it addressing though?


The fact that most people consider sorcerors slightly weaker than their caster cousins and could use an extra 'something'?
Not to outshine them, but to make the difference more noticable

I'd like to add that this would address the relative lack of specific damage type of spells for, say, Draconic Bloodline sorcerers. Given that they're better to use a spell with a matching damage type compared to their draconic bloodline, some bloodlines get shafted sideways while others have an abundance of matching spells.

[Spiritchaser]

To my mind, a large measure of the purpose this serves (and I agree it serves a purpose) would be better addressed by having more spells available, both to casters in general and to sorcerers specifically.

You’d want a handful more cold spells, and a few more lightning, plus a whole lot of acid or poison (Poison might focus more on rider effects than damage, to make up for frequent resistance or immunities)

If you could build your concept with standard spells, you wouldn’t need to modify things to make a black dragon sorcerer... or whatever.

And while you’re at it, copy some wizard spells to the sorcerer list. Grumble grumble...

[Sindal]

To my mind, a large measure of the purpose this serves (and I agree it serves a purpose) would be better addressed by having more spells available, both to casters in general and to sorcerers specifically.

You’d want a handful more cold spells, and a few more lightning, plus a whole lot of acid or poison (Poison might focus more on rider effects than damage, to make up for frequent resistance or immunities)

If you could build your concept with standard spells, you wouldn’t need to modify things to make a black dragon sorcerer... or whatever.

And while you’re at it, copy some wizard spells to the sorcerer list. Grumble grumble...

That's totally fair. More spells, especially ones unique to the sorcerer, would be neat.
This was just a blanket idea, since a lot of the 'good spells' already exist.

Fireball already exists.
Cone of cold already exists.

Adding more spells are more chances for a particular spell to either be too strong or too weak.
Look at chaos bolt. It's a neat spell and only sorcerers can use it, but people would rather pick chromatic orb for it's reliable use.

If the idea that sorcerers are 'unique spell casters', this would be something that basicly excuses their lack of options: They MAKE their spells work

[GeistInMachine]

I think this idea really only focuses on blaster sorcs, which are probably actually the weakest variant for sorc builds.

Maybe that's all people want, as though weaker than say a controller or buffer build, blaster sorc is certainly a popular build, but if the intent is buff a sorcerer as a whole i think the focus is too narrow on one specific playstyle.
As someone else said, may be better as a metamagic to be customizable, but even then it competes with far better metamagic

[Sindal]

I think this idea really only focuses on blaster sorcs, which are probably actually the weakest variant for sorc builds.

Maybe that's all people want, as though weaker than say a controller or buffer build, blaster sorc is certainly a popular build, but if the intent is buff a sorcerer as a whole i think the focus is too narrow on one specific playstyle.
As someone else said, may be better as a metamagic to be customizable, but even then it competes with far better metamagic

I suppose so.
But at the very least with this change, a Sorcerer will always be able to 'rely' on blasting a lot more. In theory that is.

The reason i didn't make it a meta magic related option is
A) There's already a somewhat list and I don't want to add it to the 2 your allowed to take at lvl3. It could be a metamagic every Sorcerer gets, I suppose. I'd much rather spend it on the meta magics I've chosen because if what your saying is true and blasting is the statistical weakest part of sorcerers kit, why would I choose it over the others?
B) SP doesn't grow on trees.

The change is designed to
A)Give sorcerers something neat that they don't have to use, but can choose to use either for flavor (Because sometimes people just want to be an X mage but there are no spells that really as helpful as the popular spells) or to help get slightly more appealing versions of current spells. Spells with poor damage types but decent riders could shine a little more.
B) Not add an additional thing SP has to budget for. It's already juggling 2 mechanics.

The other meta magics is another story but they, sorta, already deal with adding utility to spells. Making them quicker, less detectable, less resistible etc. That's supposed to be the utility they bring over a wizard who has a vastily bigger list of 'natural' spells.

[Kane0]

The fact that most people consider sorcerers slightly weaker than their caster cousins and could use an extra 'something'?
Not to outshine them, but to make the difference more noticeable


There are other ways to do that, some more thorough than others. You can check my sig for one example but there’s plenty of others.

[LibraryOgre]

How do yall feel about this addition to the sorceror's kit.

A) Starting at lvl 1, whenever you learn a spell that will cause damage, you may replace it's damage type indefinitely to a different listed below. The spell functions the same otherwise and uses the new element instead.

Bludgeoning


Ray of Fist
Fisting Hands
Scorching Fist
Fistball
Fist Storm
Cone of Fist

I feel like Bigby had this as a class feature. :biggrin:

[rel]

punches from the punch dimension

[LibraryOgre]

Ray of Fist
Fisting Hands
Scorching Fist
Fistball
Fist Storm
Cone of Fist

I feel like Bigby had this as a class feature. :biggrin:

Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Fisting.

[Spiritchaser]

Wall of fists?

I’d play in a campaign like that...

Edit: at least to try it...