Avoiding a TPK?

[prabe]

Seeking outside ideas, because I'm worried I'm maybe a little stuck inside my own POV.

Party I'm GMing is in a position where they are, best I can tell, set on attacking an enemy next session that will all-but-inevitably kill them all. They made a deal with this enemy to avoid fighting it once, but before they completely left the cave-complex that serves as its lair, they attacked minions who were escorting them out, found a relatively secure place, and started planning an attack. They happened upon a sentient item in this space that was witness to another party getting dismantled by this thing, and I'm planning on working out those specifics; I'm worried that no outcome can be quick and secure enough to warn the party off. They have quick-ish transport out, but they seem unwilling to use ti to avoid this fight.

I'm ... reluctant to just flat-out kill the party, because that's not the GM's job. I don't see what else I can do to provide them the information they need to know they can't win this now, but they can come back later and do so.

[Koo Rehtorb]

It's not your job to kill the party, but it's also not your job to avoid killing the party. If you give them an appropriate amount of information to make an informed choice and they get themselves killed anyway then I'd say you've done your duty.

With that said, if you feel strongly enough about this, there's nothing particularly wrong with an OOC warning. "Not all fights are designed to be winnable and if you go through with this you might all die." I'd find that kind of hand holding annoying as a player, but I don't know your group and their tastes.

[Wraith]

Does the monster in question *have* to be in the same place?

If you're wanting to preserve the mystique of the encounter and don't want to reveal your OOC hand (although frankly that's still a very good suggestion), my first instinct would be that, with it's lair already compromised, then regardless of what agreement it had with the party it would move out somewhere more secure. Maybe it leaves behind a guardian - a more CR-appropriate creature? - and disappears, with just enough clues for them to track it down in say, 5 or 6 levels' time when they can hopefully offer it more of a threat?

The party won't know that until they get there and find themselves hip-deep in a dangerous encounter, and thus too busy to wonder about what they missed. The creature is obviously intelligent as it conversed and struck a deal with them, it might as well reason that the party would attempt to betray it and act accordingly?

Or alternatively, it sets a trap and has them teleported into another nearby dungeon, or a far-off plane, or whatever. If anyone asks, it needed 10 minutes to perform the appropriate ritual, and got started just as soon as it realised that it's agents/guards hadn't returned and that the party might return.

[Zman]

Have you tried whispering "Psst, you aren't strong enough right now and probably won't survive."

Alternatively, is there a reason the enemy would defeat the party and not outright finish them off. Or maybe they'll just kill one of them and imprison the rest for torture, give the party a chance to escape.

[Tawmis]

I'm ... reluctant to just flat-out kill the party, because that's not the GM's job. I don't see what else I can do to provide them the information they need to know they can't win this now, but they can come back later and do so.

Why not have the big bad capture them? Place them in cages?

Then have one of the servants of the big bad, actually be a spy (or someone who is sympathetic to the party) and helps them escape?

Said NPC could provide some insight as to what it might take to take down the enemy (some weapon, some magical thing, etc).

[DeTess]

Seeking outside ideas, because I'm worried I'm maybe a little stuck inside my own POV.

Party I'm GMing is in a position where they are, best I can tell, set on attacking an enemy next session that will all-but-inevitably kill them all. They made a deal with this enemy to avoid fighting it once, but before they completely left the cave-complex that serves as its lair, they attacked minions who were escorting them out, found a relatively secure place, and started planning an attack. They happened upon a sentient item in this space that was witness to another party getting dismantled by this thing, and I'm planning on working out those specifics; I'm worried that no outcome can be quick and secure enough to warn the party off. They have quick-ish transport out, but they seem unwilling to use ti to avoid this fight.

I'm ... reluctant to just flat-out kill the party, because that's not the GM's job. I don't see what else I can do to provide them the information they need to know they can't win this now, but they can come back later and do so.

If all else fails, you could always just flat out OOC tell them that they're very likely to die if they take on that enemy.

That having been said, there are some IC avenues that might still eb open. First, you should figure out why the players think they can take that enemy. If it's a simple case of the PC's underestimating his fire-power/defenses, then you could figure out a way to tell them as much. Maybe have them find a report showing the bad guy's weapons tearing through something much tougher than them, or his armor shrugging off attacks from weapons bigger than what they've got, or something else to get their expectations in line with reality. If the PC's instead think they can take him because they are completely unaware of something about this enemy, then you could figure out a way to egt them that information before it's too late.

If the PC's are instead overestimating their own power then there's probably not much you can do IC apart from having the bad guy beat them up and then leave them for dead. However, it could also be that the PC's have a plan they actually believe will work. In that case, you should consider whether you should allow it to work now, and simply adjust the rest of the adventure to account for the enemy's early demise. If the plan is not good enough, then there should be some way to inform the player's of that.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've blogged on the TPK topic, and almost everything I ever want to say about TPKs is in there. (https://running-the-game.blogspot.com/2013/04/after-heroes-are-dead.html)

My recommendation for your current situation is that you let them try it - let the PCs go up against the big nasty! If you get a TPK, then use one of the Dream Prophesy options, with your sentient magic item being the one who provides the vision. If only a some of the party die, then decide whether you want to let the deaths stand, or use the dream prophesy option.

If that doesn't fit your situation, the other option I would tend to go for is the "Captured not killed" scenario - this works well especially if the big bad thing is being set up for later as the BBEG of your whole game. If it's possible, have the encounter end badly super quickly, with all the party taken down. Then stick them in a "Lost all your kit, escape the dungeon" set up. Maybe even have the bad guy (or their right hand hench-thing) gloat at them first, rubbing in how powerful and dangerous the bad guy is.

Basically, show them who is boss, and let them get away with it after a struggle.

[Zhorn]

It's not your job to kill the party, but it's also not your job to avoid killing the party. If you give them an appropriate amount of information to make an informed choice and they get themselves killed anyway then I'd say you've done your duty.

Very much this. Giving the players an 'out' to avoid certain death is good, but in this case it sounds like they've taken that out and doubled back anyway. Let the dice determine the rest.
As a DM, it is your responsibility to make the encounters feel fair and honest to the players. Sometimes that includes "This enemy is strong and ruthless, and would not hesitate to kill an opponent".
I don't enjoy killing players, but sometimes they need to be reminded of their character's mortality.

I fear I will have to live up to my own advice this week's SKT session. One of the party members died to a trap last session (24d10 falling rock damage, yay module), and another player has been blinded (cursed magic item), and ended last session entering a room with Dodkong Grugaran (a stone giant lich) and Iymrith in negotiations. I hope they run, or at the very least try to avoid hostilities... BUT once a fight breaks out... :smalleek:

[Evil DM Mark3]

I feel I agree with the overall feel of the thread, but I have a few questions which might clarify and help give more exact advice:

What, exactly, is this foe? What tools are at its disposal?
Why were they able to get to it if it is so much more powerful than them? Was leaving it part of the expected plot?
Are there any interested 3rd parties who might render aid, even if such aid is as unhelpful as another foe who raises them into crude undead bodies (basically zombies without the mindlessness and shambling) as a way of gaining control of the group (control they can subvert at a later date of course)

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe just give them a "do over" when they get wiped. Rewind time so they can decide to not fight this thing

[prabe]

Thanks, y'all, for helping me see new angles on this. I'm still not sure how I'll solve this, but the replies here give me thoughts that might lead to other thoughts.

(I'm being nonspecific here, because I suspect players in the party I'm GMing at least occasionally pop into these forums.)

[Evil DM Mark3]

I'm being nonspecific here, because I suspect players in the party I'm GMing at least occasionally pop into these forums.

OK then, lets talk wider.

There are lots of ways to down a party without TPK, Hold spells, Sleep, non-lethal damage (if the monster is that far above them then they can easily do that for the final blow). Once captured you can have the party escape or you can use some form of magic to force compliance (in 3.X Geas is more or less built for this). Who knows, maybe the villain's motivations can still push the plot along (after all, if party are trying to assemble the five shinny-shinnies of legend and Sloberforth the giant doggie of evil (he's NOT a good boy...) has one he may want the other four himself, so they still go and quest for the next one, they just have to ALSO find a way to break the magic on them).

I dislike rewinding things, partly because it feels too much like a PC game but mostly because I played an Exalted game with an Alchemical who had that exact thing as a charm and they used it so annoyingly that the whole idea is tainted for me. It may work for you however I would also advise that there is a very real chance the players will go "cool, so we know what to do this time, lets go!"

[prabe]

OK then, lets talk wider.

There are lots of ways to down a party without TPK, Hold spells, Sleep, non-lethal damage (if the monster is that far above them then they can easily do that for the final blow). Once captured you can have the party escape or you can use some form of magic to force compliance (in 3.X Geas is more or less built for this). Who knows, maybe the villain's motivations can still push the plot along (after all, if party are trying to assemble the five shinny-shinnies of legend and Sloberforth the giant doggie of evil (he's NOT a good boy...) has one he may want the other four himself, so they still go and quest for the next one, they just have to ALSO find a way to break the magic on them).

I dislike rewinding things, partly because it feels too much like a PC game but mostly because I played an Exalted game with an Alchemical who had that exact thing as a charm and they used it so annoyingly that the whole idea is tainted for me. It may work for you however I would also advise that there is a very real chance the players will go "cool, so we know what to do this time, lets go!"

This wasn't supposed to be a BBEG. This was a side thing that I was *trying* to set up for later, but the party meddled with a scheme he had going, and he got irritated. He's not likely to abandon his lair, because it's where all his stuff is (and he likes stuff), and his minions live in the caves that surround it, and it perfectly fits his ... predispositions, as far as lair selection goes; also, he's probably over confident (which might be a way to avoid having him kill the party ...).

There was some thought they could use this villain to at least help solving another problem, but the negotiations to do that ... didn't go the way the party wanted.

I'm with you about disliking rewinding after a failure, even without having that sort of experience with a character ability.

[Zhorn]

Rewinds generally encourage poor decision making as it telegraphs to the player that the DM is looking out for them and will undo their mistakes.

[prabe]

Rewinds generally encourage poor decision making as it telegraphs to the player that the DM is looking out for them and will undo their mistakes.

I agree. I think having the GM explicitly protect the characters from dying encourages ... behaviors that tend toward reckless-to-the-point-of-stupid.

[Slipperychicken]

Rewinds generally encourage poor decision making as it telegraphs to the player that the DM is looking out for them and will undo their mistakes.
On the other side, permadeath and no-takebacks gameplay demoralizes gaming groups and stops whole campaigns in their tracks.

The mistakes are undone either way. The only question is whether you get to keep playing and see the campaign to its conclusion, or end up shelving all your hard work and starting over.

The video-game industry learned this decades ago: If you want to tell a whole story through interactive gameplay, you can't just kill all the story progress the moment a player makes a big mistake or gets unlucky. It'd be like throwing a book in a fireplace because you didn't turn the pages fast enough, or your video-games uninstalling themselves on the first game over. You'd never finish a game, and that's exactly where tabletop is: most of our campaigns end half-finished and are wasted because we delete them the moment we reach a fail-state.

[kyoryu]

Make sure retreat is an option (aka, don't take away retreat as an option).

Remind them of this.

If they ignore your reminder as they're getting their butts handed to them, remind them of it again.

[prabe]

Make sure retreat is an option (aka, don't take away retreat as an option).

Remind them of this.

Do you think that having a witness (that sentient item) describe this villain as specifically closing off avenues of retreat would be both a reminder of this and a warning? Problem I see in that instance is having the survivors get to where the party found their bodies. Doable, I think, though.

[Evil DM Mark3]

You'd never finish a game, and that's exactly where tabletop is: most of our campaigns end half-finished and are wasted because we delete them the moment we reach a fail-state.Yours may. I don't let a mere TPK end my games, not that it has happened often. What I object to is there being no consiquences, which is what a rewind does.

[CombatBunny]

There is a common trope used in T.V. and cinema when things like this happen:

Run the encounter as normal and narrate deaths as usual (almost), if a player complains, just tell him to wait till the end of the encounter. Once the party is down or has escaped (or partially escaped), reveal that the BBEG is confident enough to believe that the heroes are dead or have his minions finish the job (minions that don’t completely agree with their master or have some attachment to the party for any hundred of reasons).

The minions simply dispose the bodies in a common pit and hours later the PCs wake up at 0hps (without regarding how injured they were), all magic depleted.

Let the heroes recover and escape relatively easy, maybe even with the aid of some minions. Warn your players that they can try again to battle against the BBEG, but that next encounter death will mean death.

[kyoryu]

Do you think that having a witness (that sentient item) describe this villain as specifically closing off avenues of retreat would be both a reminder of this and a warning? Problem I see in that instance is having the survivors get to where the party found their bodies. Doable, I think, though.

Why have the villain close off avenues of retreat?

I mean, if you don't want a TPK, why set up the scenario such that it's either "win" or "TPK"?

[Ken Murikumo]

I see 3 immediate ways to proceed:

1) This may be controversial, but have you considered scaling back the enemy? Make him tough, like really tough, but still beatable. You said he was a side thing and no the main BBEG so why does it matter that he could tpk the party?

i would only do this if the party has gotten spotty or questionable info about this guy. If you hammered home that this guy is super powerful, i would use 2 or 3.


2) They need to fight the minions to get to him right? Make the minion encounters along the way really challenging. Like story boss level challenging. This will deplete HP and resources quickly leaving them with no conceivable way to take down the guy in question.

I would use this only if they have not fought any minions (or just a few low rank guys). Having minions jump in power after a session seems to be inconsistent and rail-roady.


3) Have them fight this guy, but he wrecks them. Like there was no question of power, the party didn't stand a chance. Don't kill them and move the plot along with them either escaping by a hair or being ejected from the dungeon using DM-EX-Machina. They'll hate him (and you) for it but they'll be motivated to get stronger and beat this guy later on.

I would use this only after giving the party tons of info, telling them that this guy is crazy strong. Way more than they are. There can be no question that this guy will beat them in combat. If they die, they die & it's their fault, not yours.


Im sure i could think of more ways, but these 3 come to mind immediately.


Edit: Just want to clarify for some of these with more text

[prabe]

Why have the villain close off avenues of retreat?

I mean, if you don't want a TPK, why set up the scenario such that it's either "win" or "TPK"?

Sorry, I wasn't adequately clear. There's a sentient item that witnessed a different party get dismantled, and (I think) the party is going to ask the item about that, to get a sense of this badguy's tactics. I'm thinking that if the item describes the badguy as specifically closing off avenues of retreat in a previous combat, that might be a warning to them about this potential one.

[Kaptin Keen]

What I did in an almost identical situation: Killed them, sent them to the 'Death Realm' - and let them fight their way back out. It was a major detour, of course. But it also turned out to be a fun challenge.

[King of Nowhere]

you mentioned that they have ways to escape quickly. I can assume a teleport spell or something like that.
My suggestion is to let them fight. If all goes well, after one or two of them die, they can grab their dead, teleport away, and resurrect their dead. that way they took a singificant blow, but the campaign goes on.
If they don't take the clue (which includes telegraphing that they're not close to winning, like "the foe does not look close to death" or stuff like that) they die. ultimately, you should not protect the players from the consequences of their actions, else their actions are meaningless.

if they have an npc ally, there is also the option of said ally barging in and saving the party, at th ecost of his life. that way, the fight will cost the party an ally. if done well it can tie them better to the story, although if done poorly it may be a cheap melodrama.

Finally, while you don't see how they could win, consider that they still could. several times I threw encounters that I expected my players to have to flee, and they defeated them anyway. if they manage to overcome a more powerful foe by clever planning, reward them accordingly.

[Fable Wright]

Sorry, I wasn't adequately clear. There's a sentient item that witnessed a different party get dismantled, and (I think) the party is going to ask the item about that, to get a sense of this badguy's tactics. I'm thinking that if the item describes the badguy as specifically closing off avenues of retreat in a previous combat, that might be a warning to them about this potential one.

Perfect!

Give them a handful of pregens roughly equal to the PCs.

Run them into the boss.

TPK the pregens.

That's the story that the magic item tells them.

[zinycor]

Just have a red herring in there, have the party fight someone who works for this particular bad guy, who would be a far more appropriate challenge, and have the actual bad guy having moved his things to another place.

You could also just have the bad guy not kill them but send them into a prison, and then have the PCs escape that prison.

[CombatBunny]

Perfect!

Give them a handful of pregens roughly equal to the PCs.

Run them into the boss.

TPK the pregens.

That's the story that the magic item tells them.

This sounds excellent, I would go with this one.

[prabe]

Perfect!

Give them a handful of pregens roughly equal to the PCs.

Run them into the boss.

TPK the pregens.

That's the story that the magic item tells them.

This is brilliant, and precisely why I wanted other brains thinking about this. Of course, I need to make sure the character with the sentient item and one other escape ... Oh, well. No plan is perfect.

[Koo Rehtorb]

That sounds like a tedious waste of everyone's time to me, but again, I don't know your group.

[Duff]

I agree. I think having the GM explicitly protect the characters from dying encourages ... behaviors that tend toward reckless-to-the-point-of-stupid.

I had been guilty of this. Then the players ran across a BBEG who had read the "Evil Overlord's Handbook". He sent an efficient hit squad who killed them. After that my "Are you sure you want to do that?" has led to them asking more questions...

Oh, another hint you could drop would be to ask for a "Lore check" type of thing. Success leads to you giving them enough info to realise its a bad idea

[Zhorn]

That sounds like a tedious waste of everyone's time to me, but again, I don't know your group.

Any plan the DM throws at the party is only a 'tedious waste of time' if the players don't get some form of enjoyment out on the session (and to be clear enjoyment does not need to be exclusively happy/victorious).

As long as whatever is thrown at the players is engaging and does not rob them of their agency, then it is a good plan.

Running the flashback combat via the intelligent item is a good way of giving the players a consequence free try at the combat without negating their efforts the same way a rewind does. Just be sure to not use that trick too often, and really hammer home the brutality of the encounter. The wielder of the intelligent item doesn't need to escape or survive. Just handwave away that the item exchanged hands enough to find its way to the party over a non-descript period of time.

[patchyman]

Thanks, y'all, for helping me see new angles on this. I'm still not sure how I'll solve this, but the replies here give me thoughts that might lead to other thoughts.

(I'm being nonspecific here, because I suspect players in the party I'm GMing at least occasionally pop into these forums.)

If you do not like to share OOC information (and a lot of DMs don’t), you can go the IC information route. Let them attack, then describe how the villain doesn’t seem fazed by their Nova. Describe his attacks (and their damage) as brutal swipes that leaves the characters reeling. Have the villain act ridiculously overconfident. The party will quickly get the idea they should run. Then maybe the villain is satisfied just killing the one that isn’t fast enough.

[zinycor]

Perfect!

Give them a handful of pregens roughly equal to the PCs.

Run them into the boss.

TPK the pregens.

That's the story that the magic item tells them.

I mean... personally I would hate running or playing on this scenario... But if that would work for your group, go ahead.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Any plan the DM throws at the party is only a 'tedious waste of time' if the players don't get some form of enjoyment out on the session (and to be clear enjoyment does not need to be exclusively happy/victorious).

As long as whatever is thrown at the players is engaging and does not rob them of their agency, then it is a good plan.

Like I said, I don't know the group. If they enjoy spending a bunch of time on a meaningless combat with no stakes then more power to them. I'm not required to understand it for it to be fun for them.

[patchyman]

Give them a handful of pregens roughly equal to the PCs.

Run them into the boss.

TPK the pregens.

That's the story that the magic item tells them.

Love this!

[Fable Wright]

Like I said, I don't know the group. If they enjoy spending a bunch of time on a meaningless combat with no stakes then more power to them. I'm not required to understand it for it to be fun for them.

*shrug*

I rather imagine there are stakes. Every NPC that the players run that manage to escape the fight? Potential allies who have fought the boss before. Every time they successfully force the boss monster to use a move that threatens a party wipe is one time they don't need to almost wipe the party when they fight it themselves. Imagine playing a Roguelike that usually forces you to restart from the beginning after death, but suddenly grants you one extra life for a particularly relevant story encounter. And if they manage to steer the pregens into making the boss take a long-term crippled state? That's making it easier for them long term.

[zinycor]

*shrug*

I rather imagine there are stakes. Every NPC that the players run that manage to escape the fight? Potential allies who have fought the boss before. Every time they successfully force the boss monster to use a move that threatens a party wipe is one time they don't need to almost wipe the party when they fight it themselves. Imagine playing a Roguelike that usually forces you to restart from the beginning after death, but suddenly grants you one extra life for a particularly relevant story encounter. And if they manage to steer the pregens into making the boss take a long-term crippled state? That's making it easier for them long term.

What? So you think it wouldn't be a waste because this bad guy would have wasted precious resources on killing the previous party, therefore making it easier for the party to killing him.... Despite we knowing that isn't the case, the whole point is that the party CAN'T defeat this guy.

I feel like either I didn't understand your point or you are failing to communicate your point.

[Fable Wright]

What? So you think it wouldn't be a waste because this bad guy would have wasted precious resources on killing the previous party, therefore making it easier for the party to killing him.... Despite we knowing that isn't the case, the whole point is that the party CAN'T defeat this guy.

I feel like either I didn't understand your point or you are failing to communicate your point.

I am assuming information asymmetry in play.

The players...

...don't know what the monster's saves, AC, and defenses look like;
...don't know for a fact what abilities the monster has;
...don't know what kinds of tactics and minions the monster brings with him;
...don't know what magic items the monster uses in the fight;
...don't know what its attack types/damages/DCs look like;
...don't know what senses it can bring to bear.

And learning that information costs the party hit points, spell slots, consumables, and most importantly actions. Quite possibly their lives

Ramming a losing party into the final fight provides two things:
—First, a first look at those unknowns above, which lets the party conserve all their limited resources when they actually fight the monster, and lets them evaluate whether or not they would die fighting it themselves;
—Second, to add a reason for players to be invested in the fight, the GM might incentivize the doomed party to be willing to retreat—every character that the players manage to escape from the losing fight becomes a quest reward—either chipping in magic items or joining the final fight themselves, when it happens.

Then again, I'm a Combat as War type of player, and view information on an unknown stat block as an extremely valuable reward. If you're a Combat as Sport player, and not going to change up tactics/consumables/preparations/hirelings/whatever based off what you learn about the final fight, then I guess this would be a waste of time to you.

[tomandtish]

Sorry, I wasn't adequately clear. There's a sentient item that witnessed a different party get dismantled, and (I think) the party is going to ask the item about that, to get a sense of this badguy's tactics. I'm thinking that if the item describes the badguy as specifically closing off avenues of retreat in a previous combat, that might be a warning to them about this potential one.

Does the party have a rough idea of the strength of the other party (the wiped party)? If not, make sure they do. For example, if this opponent was a dragon:

Show the other party attacking first. Establish through description of moves/feats/spells that this party is AT LEAST equal to them. Have their first round of attacks do... nothing.

Then have the dragon attack. Have each attack take out one of that party. Foe added emphasis, have what should be weaker attacks take out higher hp members (so the claw attack takes out the barbarian).

Rinse and repeat.