Could Asmodeus conquer Dis and the Iron Tower?

[Conradine]

In your opinion, if Dispater fought all defensively, could Asmoeus conquer Dis and destroy Dispater inside his Iron Tower?

[denthor]

One on one yes. With the planes of hell's devils certainly.

This is what happened when he took control of all nine levels. He did it not only by brute force but with contracts and schemes to generate loyalty.
Remember he imprisoned out right the ruler of the 5th layer. Installed a new ruler overthrew him and reinstated the imprisoned guy.
Once a year he invites them all down for a progress report and none of them betray or attempt to overthrow his rule.

It would take multiple 1,000's of years however.

[Sepultra]

In your opinion, if Dispater fought all defensively, could Asmoeus conquer Dis and destroy Dispater inside his Iron Tower?

Yes, absolutely. He has near enough absolute power in the Hells and probably has people lined up to replace every Devil Lord if they happen to decide to try to overthrow him. He's been scheming for longer than any of us have been alive and managed to **** over the Gods with a contract. I don't doubt he's got some very effective contingencies in place should one of the Lords of Hell decide to try something.

[GrayDeath]

He doesnt need to.

Asmodeus already Rules Dis, and all other Layers.

And if Dispater ever betrayed him, his contingencies in Place would likely allow him to just step out behind Dispater and ....well...^^

Asmodeus, aside from being so powerful that without his wound he would be above most Gods, is also incredibly sneaky. I mean, jsut look at the Pact Primeval, and the fact he STILL rules, after all these years, in the only true Meritocracy of the Planes.

[Psyren]

As the undisputed Lord of Nine, Asmodeus has morphic control of all 9 layers, not just his own. What Iron Tower?

[Kelb_Panthera]

History says that he can and has. It also says he doesn't need to since he's the undisputed ruler of all of Baator outside of the divine realms of a few LE gods that live in -his- plane.

As for the small matter of whether he could personally bypass the defenses of the iron tower and whoop Dispater's butt, I suspect he could do so with minimal effort. As outsiders, they're not far off from one another but Asmodeus casts spells as a cleric 20 while Dispater does not. Between that difference and the fact the plane itself yields to Asmodeus' will... it won't be much contest.

[Afghanistan]

As the undisputed Lord of Nine, Asmodeus has morphic control of all 9 layers, not just his own. What Iron Tower?

Assuming this is a cosmology where Asmodeus is a deity of "Lesser deity status or higher", this is correct and basically the end of the fight outright. If this is the Dicefreaks version of Asmodeus (who is only a divine avatar of an unstatted Overdeity), there is absolutely no question that Asmodeus could quite easily break every single one of the other Archdevils, Lords of the Nine, and Duke of Hell in the same source material by just using his Submission of the Lord ability, stripping them of their status, and turning them into a Lemure (there is no save against this ability, no SR. You just lose).

Furthermore, a properly executed and plotted out Asmodeus at their intelligence and degree of knowledge (in accordance to lore mind you) not only couldn't be beaten, they also couldn't be encountered unless it is exactly what they want. Asmodeus essentially encompasses the statement "All according to plan".

[EisenKreutzer]

Asmodeus isn’t the Lord of Nine because he’s a dangerous combatant (which he is), he’s the Lord of Nine because he’s an unfathomably competent plotter, schemer, strategist and above all else the best lawyer in the multiverse.
If Dispater rebels, it’s because Asmodeus allowed him to rebel, wanted him to rebell, counted on him to rebell and/or planned his rebellion aeons ago when the stars were young.

[Dragovon]

As written, I'd say unequivocally. As intended I'd say the same. I suppose some campaign worlds might not have the same situation as others though. In my campaign world, for example, Asmodeus is the ruler of the 9 hells...but he's not really in charge. He's actually been manipulated by Mephistopheles for eons into place to be in charge to protect Meph, while Meph manipulates him behind the scenes....but then that came about because of a campaign I once ran...and I needed Asmodeus to be a touch more fallible.

[Scots Dragon]

He doesnt need to.

Asmodeus already Rules Dis, and all other Layers.

Yeah, this.

It's like asking if the United Kingdom could conquer Manchester. It's an almost entirely nonsensical question.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, this.

It's like asking if the United Kingdom could conquer Manchester. It's an almost entirely nonsensical question.

Don't they have to do that again every football season?

[Conradine]

I was thinking about the Book of Vile Darkness and / or Fiendish Codex version.

[EisenKreutzer]

I was thinking about the Book of Vile Darkness and / or Fiendish Codex version.

Do you mean strictly mechanically, as in an actual fight only using D&D combat rules?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was thinking about the Book of Vile Darkness and / or Fiendish Codex version.

What, in a straight-up, one on one fight? Dispater would be crushed mercilessly and utterly. Their ability to wield their infernal machinations isn't the only reason they're ranked as they are.

[Afghanistan]

I was thinking about the Book of Vile Darkness and / or Fiendish Codex version.

Asmodeus has Cleric spellcasting and a fancy stick where as Dispater just has a fancy stick.

I know I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I found the old Iron Siege (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1606.0). Which was just a massive complex and insane "challenge" where you tried to defeat Dispater in his own home. Ive been tempted to recycle this for an adventure for an epic party.

[Psyren]

I was thinking about the Book of Vile Darkness and / or Fiendish Codex version.

IIRC the Fiendish Codex versions are "aspects", while the BoVD versions are the real deal.

[Conradine]

Dispater gets +20 to armor class, save throws and spell resistance inside his tower.

But I didn't meant an 1 vs 1, I just wondered if the most defensive archdevil could defend himself ( bunkering his domain ) against the boss.

[dancrilis]

But I didn't meant an 1 vs 1, I just wondered if the most defensive archdevil could defend himself ( bunkering his domain ) against the boss.

Yes - subject to narrative
Effectively if you - and your players - want to run a campaign where Asmodeus wages war on Dis as he has discovered that Dispater has made made use of his consort Lilis (considered to be second only to Asmodeus when it comes to a spy network) to secure a method of seperating Dis from the Hells and raising himself to the rank of Deity, and Asmodeus wishes to spot this before completion and the nine Hells become the eight Hells (destabilising reality as a potential consequence) - have fun with it.
You can even let your players actions determine the outcome of the conflict if you like.

Seperately if you want your narrative to have Dispater turned into a level 1 commoner at the whim of Asmodeus for your players to encounter in a tavern - have fun with that too.

[Psyren]

Dispater gets +20 to armor class, save throws and spell resistance inside his tower.

But I didn't meant an 1 vs 1, I just wondered if the most defensive archdevil could defend himself ( bunkering his domain ) against the boss.

For a short while, probably? But Asmodeus would still win as stated numerous times already, unless there's a big serving of plot on Dispater's side.

[Calthropstu]

For a short while, probably? But Asmodeus would still win as stated numerous times already, unless there's a big serving of plot on Dispater's side.

If another deity got involved it's possible. Something to isolate his layer from the rest cutting off asmodeus' power over it. If we are using the pf published version of lucifer, a plot with him and dis joining forces with lucifer gaining new power with which to challenge asmodeus would be an interesting campaign.

[Psyren]

If another deity got involved it's possible. Something to isolate his layer from the rest cutting off asmodeus' power over it. If we are using the pf published version of lucifer, a plot with him and dis joining forces with lucifer gaining new power with which to challenge asmodeus would be an interesting campaign.

I'd lump all that under "big serving of plot", yeah :smalltongue:

But I'll throw in some FC2 quotes to show why this is so difficult a prospect:


Asmodeus is the undisputed master of the Nine Hells, commanding fear and respect from all those who occupy his realm. Even the gods who dwell in the Nine Hells give Asmodeus his proper due.


Asmodeus is aware of every plot hatched against him. Older than the oldest archdevil, he has watched the rise and fall of other archdevils far craftier than any of Asmodeus’s contemporaries.


He has spies on every layer, plants in every court. No fiend knows for sure which of its minions actually serve Asmodeus, so the climate is one of justified paranoia.


On the Material Plane, Asmodeus has more cultists than all the other archdevils combined. Mortals who worship devils actually draw power from Asmodeus.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'd say Dispater would possibly make enough of a fight that you could at least say Asmodeus didn't roll him. He's paranoid, he's a planner and a schemer. He's got contingencies and potentially wields control over the erinyes and pleasure devils (if you want him to have an ace)

He's like a well entrenched guildmaster at the center of one of the multiverse's biggest commercial cities (much like Malchanthet might hold off an equivalent demon lord to Asmodeus if one existed), he has contingencies and alliances

Asmodeus is a great wyrm dragon in this analogy, or the tarrasque, or some suitable epic threat. But he's more than that. The farce of a resistance would continue only as long as it needed to. Even with all his power Asmodeus wouldn't allow the seed of rebellion to take root for the same reason as occassionally needing to wash the dishes. If things get out of hand it just creates more work.

[Psyren]

Per the quotes above, (a) Dispater has no way of knowing which of his "contingencies and alliances" actually serve Asmodeus more than him, and (b) Asmodeus will become aware of it the moment DP starts plotting anyway. The moment his plan relies on anyone but himself he's screwed, and possibly even before then.

[Evil DM Mark3]

So, here is how I picture that going.

Asmodeus's forces have beaten back Despater's all the way to Despater's throne room, inside which is the vast vault door which houses the second, secret, city of Dis and the second, secret, Iron tower. As the Lord of the Nine (or more likely one of the others on his orders, probably his daughter) enters the chamber they pull out a rusty iron key, a duplicate to Despater's own manufactured untold centuries ago for this very day, and gentl slides it into the lock, the fuses it in place, forever sealing Depater in his hidey hole.

"I do wish the rest of them would be this considerate..."

EDIT: In all seriousness I don't think Asmodeus would ever need to fight Despater, because Despater has himslef all snarled up in his paranoia that he is never going to try anything. Asmodeus has already won.

[NNescio]

So, here is how I picture that going.

Asmodeus's forces have beaten back Despater's all the way to Despater's throne room, inside which is the vast vault door which houses the second, secret, city of Dis and the second, secret, Iron tower. As the Lord of the Nine (or more likely one of the others on his orders, probably his daughter) enters the chamber they pull out a rusty iron key, a duplicate to Despater's own manufactured untold centuries ago for this very day, and gentl slides it into the lock, the fuses it in place, forever sealing Depater in his hidey hole.

"I do wish the rest of them would be this considerate..."

Tzeentch Asmodaddy: Just as planned.

[dancrilis]

I do think this trend may be giving Asmodeous too much credit - from the Book of Vile Darkness he only has and INT of 30 (Graz'zt has INT 35 for comparison) - Asmodeous is certainly fairly bright, but one doesn't need to be a deity to be smarter then he is - Dispater is one such being (also with a INT 31).

Now INT is not the be all and end all - but I wouldn't be inclined to overestimate Asmodeous against the others (he likely doesn't underestimate his rivals either - he after all wiser then he is smart).