[3.5] Brand of the Nine Hells (Bel)

[Thurbane]

So the current Junkyard Wards thread got me looking at the Brand of the Nine Hells feat (FC2 p.81), in particular for Bel.

The brand is a "cold iron longsword or greatsword (your choice) that glistens with green hellfire". It deals additional damage against good creatures, and demons.

The feat is a little vague on the specifics of the sword. I'm wondering what people's opinion is on the following questions:


Is it a one-off sword, that if lost or destroyed, never comes back?
Is it a weapon you can summon and dismiss freely?
If yes to question 2, could you select either longsword or greatsword each time you summon it?
Is the sword magical? Obviously it is not listed as either masterwork not having en enhancement bonus, so upgrading it further would be difficult, but would it ping under a Detect Magic?

On question 4, are there any PrCs, feats or similar that would allow you to enchant the sword? Fiend of Possession should work, but only as a temporary enchantment.

From memory, Kensai, Legacy Champion etc. require something to be at least masterwork...maybe there's others that don;t have these stipulations?

I'm thinking of maybe basing a villain/NPC in my game around this feat, so any suggestions would be welcome.

As usual for my games, no homebrew, PF or Dragon/Dungeon material is generally allowed. Psionics, Incarnum, and other subsystems are usually not in play either, with the exception of Binding and ToB maneuvers/stances.

Cheers - T

[pabelfly]

1) I presume it is a one-off gift, there's nothing to indicate otherwise. Maybe you'd get the gift again if your DM allowed it if it broke, but that's not RAW
2) Nothing said the sword could be summoned or dismissed, I'd presume it can't be summoned or dismissed without other abilities to allow it
4) I'd presume it would ping because of the green hellfire enchant and its extra damage effects, even if it's not described as a +1 or higher sword

Just my presumptions, the feats aren't very well-written.

[NontheistCleric]

The feat says that you 'gain an infernal brand'. There's no text that says if your brand is lost or destroyed, it can come back, unless of course you managed to lose and regain the feat. So, in absence of any other information, it appears that it would remain lost.

There's nothing implying it can be summoned or dismissed freely. You gain the sword once, when you get the feat.

The feat doesn't say it is magical, so it probably isn't. The hellfire is, I suppose, natural hellfire?

[Thurbane]

1) I presume it is a one-off gift, there's nothing to indicate otherwise. Maybe you'd get the gift again if your DM allowed it if it broke, but that's not RAW
2) Nothing said the sword could be summoned or dismissed, I'd presume it can't be summoned or dismissed without other abilities to allow it
4) I'd presume it would ping because of the green hellfire enchant and its extra damage effects, even if it's not described as a +1 or higher sword

Just my presumptions, the feats aren't very well-written.

The feat says that you 'gain an infernal brand'. There's no text that says if your brand is lost or destroyed, it can come back, unless of course you managed to lose and regain the feat. So, in absence of any other information, it appears that it would remain lost.

There's nothing implying it can be summoned or dismissed freely. You gain the sword once, when you get the feat.

The feat doesn't say it is magical, so it probably isn't. The hellfire is, I suppose, natural hellfire?

Yeah, that probably aligns with my reading of RAW as well.

...so, what ways can you enhance or improve your sword? Like I said in my OP, FoP is an option, but I'm wondering what other methods you can use.

Is there any way to apply masterwork to an existing item, so you could enchant it?

[Mr Adventurer]

Interesting point about improvement to masterwork: RAW I don't think it's possible to improve something, only to build a new one.

Unless the "masterwork component", which has its own Craft DC, can be added later?

As a DM, I'd definitely rule in favour of that.

What raw materials you'd need to upgrade your hellsword though, I'm not sure. Possibly someone else's that you won from them.

[pabelfly]

It's not specified, but it's not unreasonable to presume that a sword with extra damage effects, gifted by an Archdemon and made of an exotic material would be a Masterwork item. I'd let it be enchanted, and I'd presume the other effects were a +1.

Again, not RAW, just a best guess working the feat into the ruleset.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Its odd, because it really doesn't match up with the nature of the other brands which all alter your body or mind in some way, eyes in the back of the head, temporary ice armour, the ability to cower really well...

Based on that pattern I would assume it to be a summonable blade, but the RAW just does not support that. Is Bel really that pathetic? He can't give supernatural power so he just hands out what I would assume is a more or less stock hellish weapon, particularly it it isn't (as it seems not to be) magical in any way.

[TheCount]

If it were me getting the feat, I would talk to the GM about it.
My best idea is getting a tattoo or something and having it apply to one of the longswords / greatswords you currently hold, as a supernatural ability.

[Bronk]

I'm wondering what people's opinion is on the following questions:


Is it a one-off sword, that if lost or destroyed, never comes back?
Is it a weapon you can summon and dismiss freely?
If yes to question 2, could you select either longsword or greatsword each time you summon it?
Is the sword magical? Obviously it is not listed as either masterwork not having en enhancement bonus, so upgrading it further would be difficult, but would it ping under a Detect Magic?



1, 2, and 3: Looks like whoever brands you just holds out two special swords, a longsword and a greatsword, and lets you take one. That would fall under the 'could be physical' bit in the feat. If it breaks or is lost, you still have the feat, so you should be able to procure another one.

4: I'd go with it being magical, because cold iron doesn't normally burn with green hellfire, which is evidently very similar to a +1 sacred or profane bonus. So I'd say it would at least be a +1 sword as well, and maybe the equivalent of a +2 for pricing unless I wanted to let the PC off easy.

[Sutr]

Its odd, because it really doesn't match up with the nature of the other brands which all alter your body or mind in some way, eyes in the back of the head, temporary ice armour, the ability to cower really well...

Based on that pattern I would assume it to be a summonable blade, but the RAW just does not support that. Is Bel really that pathetic? He can't give supernatural power so he just hands out what I would assume is a more or less stock hellish weapon, particularly it it isn't (as it seems not to be) magical in any way.

Well look at the follow up feat and he doesn't seem that bad compared to some of the other Lords/Lady's of Hell. When the feats are compared together Bel still comes out ahead for the immediate action.

I'm in the RAW its just a sword but that sword should probably count as masterwork sword.

[Kaleph]

In case the object is non-magical, non-masterwork, there could be a solution - although a debatable one.

Item familiar does not require that the object is masterwork; the prerequisites are that the object:

—Have a price of at least 2,000 gp.
—Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon).
—Have a permanent magical effect that the character can (and knows how to) use.

Now, if you mount an expensive jewel in the hilt of the sword, and you enchant the sword itself with some stupid magic effect (could continual flame work?) so that it becomes a wondrous item and not a magical weapon, then you may formally use the option "special ability" and enchant the weapon.

This solution I don't like myself, also because it involves the notorious item familiar, but I couldn't find any other way...

[daremetoidareyo]

Truebond feat with ritual of faith gives the brand an alignment, which jowgen says on the optimize this feat thread is explicitly magical according to DMG2, and then we talked about mundanes taling this feat to make phylacteries ro become liches.

Assuming that information chain of custody holds and we could find support for it, you could truebond the brand, thereby making it magical, and then alter it from there.

Does green hellfire generate heat?

[Psyren]

I forget where, but I believe cold iron stuff always counts as masterwork.

[Telonius]

I forget where, but I believe cold iron stuff always counts as masterwork.

The Special Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#ironCold) section of the SRD includes the "always masterwork" tag for Mithral, Adamantine, and Dragonhide; but not for Darkwood, Cold Iron, or Alchemical Silver. There might be other text for it somewhere else though.

[Thurbane]

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far.

I'm a real stickler for RAW in my games when I can, so using rule 0 or handwaving reqs would generally be my last option. I like to build PCs and NPCs as if I will be entering them into a forum competition.


In case the object is non-magical, non-masterwork, there could be a solution - although a debatable one.

Item familiar does not require that the object is masterwork; the prerequisites are that the object:

—Have a price of at least 2,000 gp.
—Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon).
—Have a permanent magical effect that the character can (and knows how to) use.

Now, if you mount an expensive jewel in the hilt of the sword, and you enchant the sword itself with some stupid magic effect (could continual flame work?) so that it becomes a wondrous item and not a magical weapon, then you may formally use the option "special ability" and enchant the weapon.

This solution I don't like myself, also because it involves the notorious item familiar, but I couldn't find any other way...

I actually like this solution a lot. The only bit questionable by RAW is the value of 2,000gp: but I can't see the sword being worth any less than that (if it can if fact be sold). Also, AE&G values feats at 10,000p each, so there is that too.


Truebond feat with ritual of faith gives the brand an alignment, which jowgen says on the optimize this feat thread is explicitly magical according to DMG2, and then we talked about mundanes taling this feat to make phylacteries ro become liches.

Assuming that information chain of custody holds and we could find support for it, you could truebond the brand, thereby making it magical, and then alter it from there.

Does green hellfire generate heat?

Truebond is also definitely worth looking into, thanks. :smallsmile:

Does green hellfire give off heat? I'd need to check the books - Hellfire is most often associated with Mephistoheles from memory. The Hellfire spell in BoVD is specifically not affected by Fire Shield, so maybe not? Hellfire Warlock does also not do fire (i.e. heat) damage IIRC.


I forget where, but I believe cold iron stuff always counts as masterwork.

The Special Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#ironCold) section of the SRD includes the "always masterwork" tag for Mithral, Adamantine, and Dragonhide; but not for Darkwood, Cold Iron, or Alchemical Silver. There might be other text for it somewhere else though.

Yeah, unfortunately for my purposes Cold Iron doesn't get auto masterwork the way some materials do.

[Kaleph]

I actually like this solution a lot. The only bit questionable by RAW is the value of 2,000gp: but I can't see the sword being worth any less than that (if it can if fact be sold). Also, AE&G values feats at 10,000p each, so there is that too.

What about mounting a gem that costs 2,000 gp in the hilt? It makes the entire object that expensive (I believe there are some examples of magic objects whose cost includes gems that are mounted into it).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Does green hellfire generate heat?

No, or the sword would stop being cold iron. ;j

I like TheCount's suggestion to have the effect apply to any one cold iron version of the two applicable swordtypes you're holding. That way you can have your signature weapon and have it get better as the campaign continues too. As a trade off you will usually have to search longer for your next weapon upgrade than others and you'll still have to pay for the swords you use (either directly or during the division of loot).

If you just get a sword with the effect, I vote it's at least masterwork. "Look, I know you're a PC and all, mister big shot adventurer, but we're currently a little strapped for resources, so here you go, have a crappy weapon. Don't forget to spread pain and misfortune!"

[Telonius]

As far as it being pathetic ... the brands give stuff that's related to the fluff of their various Lords of Hell. Bel's the commanding general of the Blood War, so having something sword-related (especially something that's good against demons) makes sense.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I think a Weapon of Legacy is legit.


Mundane items typically do not possess the necessary “spark” of potential to grow into legacy items. Such an occurrence is extraordinarily rare. A masterwork item can attain a legacy, but this is unusual.

In general, only items that are already magic in some fashion have the required thaumaturgical framework to found a legacy.

Mundane items gaining a legacy are extremely rare, but since the sword is clearly magical in some way I think it's more than fair to allow it to form a legacy.

Normally weapons of legacy are a poor deal, but in this case it opens the doors for a lot of other stuff, since as early as 5th level you can upgrade the sword to +1, making it qualify for all those other "at least masterwork" clauses.

Side Note: I think the sword itself easily qualifies for Ancestral Relic once you get that +1 or masterwork through some means, but meeting both alignment restrictions would require some shenanigans.

[Thurbane]

Thank you all so much for ongoing suggestions. I think I should be able to wrangle a build that would be pretty much RAW legal.

When I come up with a stub, I'll post it here.

[Evil DM Mark3]

As far as it being pathetic ... the brands give stuff that's related to the fluff of their various Lords of Hell. Bel's the commanding general of the Blood War, so having something sword-related (especially something that's good against demons) makes sense.Sword related is fine, just what one assumes is likely a fairly standard piece of gear (as opposed to all of the others which are phycial changes)is pretty unimpressive.