Help/Suggestions for Shadow Sorc 7 in CoS?

[micahaphone]

Hi all,

I'm fairly confident that I'll need a backup character ASAP in my CoS game, the party of 3 (ancients barb, swords bard, my warlock) just hit level 7. I have a tempest cleric ready to use, but now I'm contemplating a more backline caster. The bard has -1 con and his backup is playing Ireena as a vengeance paladin. 3 frontliners seems a bit much.


I'm indecisive about race/ stats, but my biggest concern is spell choices. I know as a sorcerer that's the biggest thing to not screw up. Here's my initial thoughts:

Twin/ subtle metamagic

Cantrips:
-Chill touch or maybe fire bolt for necr resistance
-shocking grasp
-mending
-minor illusion
-control flames

8 spells known. Not including darkness
___________________
Shield
.............
(Darkness)
Hold person or levitate
Blind/deafness
Phantasmal force
..................
Fireball/lightning bolt
Slow
Counterspell
.....................
Sickening radiance or banishment or confusion
_____________________

Hold person/ levitate, blind/deaf, phantasmal force, banishment are all twinnable.

Are too many of these concentration?


Hold person is amazing with the hound, but levitate is multi-use, only 1 save, and works on anything. Can't decide which to take.

Is shield even worth it with a low base AC?

Are there important things I'm missing or trap options in this list?

[strangebloke]

My thoughts:

The hound is a high-level strat. Remember, its functionally the same as 'heighten' and it effectively costs as much as a 3rd level spell by itself. That's not to say that you can't combine it with hold person, in fact, I think you should! The hound is far better than heighten because it can give disadvantage for multiple turns and deal damage. Just remember that you're spending a lot of resources on it.
The thing to remember with shadow sorcs is not to overcommit to a metamagic. You have three class features that use sorcery points and its conceivable that you never use your actual metamagic. For this reason, don't sweat having tons of spells to combo with twin. In fact, I would generally reccomend casting hold person and blindness/deafness at third level instead of twinning them, which gives the same effect. Banishment can be upcast in this manner too. Spells that can be upcast are great for a sorc because its effectively like having extra options for your spellcasting. Having firebolt and phantasmal force is sufficient justification for having Twin in this case, as both are pretty effective when twinned. If you drop, say, PF for Suggestion, I would probably drop Twin for something else like careful or empower.
Blindness/Deafness is not concentration. Remember that. Also, its death to spellcasters as most spells require you to see the target. Remember that too. Also, its a con save so its useless on beefy monsters. Remember that three.
I wouldn't get levitate as its a utility spell and sorcerers have too few spells to bother with that stuff.
I also wouldn't get both Phantasmal and Hold Person. Hold Person is better with the Hound, PF is better with twin and subtle so YMMV. Personally I'd favor PF purely because it works on more things.
Shield is a great spell and you should definitely have it by level 7, but not before grabbing Mage Armor or some other form of AC. Grab Mage armor, play a hobgoblin, grab a level of hexblade, take fricking magic initiate, or play a dragonborn with the dragonscale feat. Even though you're a 'back-liner' you don't want to drop to zero in one round because a vampire spawn dropped from the roof. Your HP pool is going to be tiny as is, don't make it harder on yourself.


so yeah I would say:

Twin/Subtle


Shield,Mage Armor
(Darkness), Blindness/deafness, Phantasmal force
Fireball/lightning bolt, Slow, Counterspell
Banishment


For races/feats I think that the Dispater Tiefling is both super metal and super good. You get utility magic, resistance to fire damage, and perfect ability scores. Be sure to play Breaking Benjamin on repeat while writing up your character sheet. Oh, and grab flames of phlegthos and combo it with firebolt/fireball to deal lots of damage and have flames of darkness.

[Bobthewizard]

Twin/ subtle metamagic

8 spells known. Not including darkness
___________________
Shield
.............
(Darkness)
Hold person or levitate
Blind/deafness
Phantasmal force
..................
Fireball/lightning bolt
Slow
Counterspell
.....................
Sickening radiance or banishment or confusion

You might want one more spell to use for your 1st level spell slot - maybe absorb elements, mage armor or grease

For 2nd level - I usually pick one combat concentration spell. I like web or suggestion, but levitate is good too, and works with twin. I like suggestion a lot on a sorcerer since you can use twin or subtle on it depending on the situation. I wouldn't add either hold person or phantasmal force onto that, especially since you already have darkness. Then keep blindness and consider misty step or mirror image for defense.

I like your 3rd level spells. I usually take hypnotic pattern or fear over slow but I can see taking slow for COS.

For 4th level, consider polymorph as a defensive buff. Someone is close to going down and poof they are a giant ape. Otherwise, your spells are all good too, they'll just compete with slow.

[micahaphone]

Thank you strangebloke and bobthewizard!

One of my potential character ideas was a mountain dwarf (soldier background), which would have medium armor, but would also only have 16 cha after level 4 asi (point buy). Other ideas include vhuman magic initiate for a free mage armor per day, or a scourge aasimar for +2 cha +1con and cool burning light theme. But I'd definitely need mage armor as a spell for that one.

I really like the theme of phantasmal force, how it can kind of replicate suggestion while also having more in-combat distraction and damage. I'll probably have that and blind/deaf at second level.

Do you ever use polymorph on enemies? I feel like the hound's disadvantage is good but it attacking the target renders that moot. Is polymorph still a good use of spells known if it's only on allies?

[strangebloke]

Thank you strangebloke and bobthewizard!

One of my potential character ideas was a mountain dwarf (soldier background), which would have medium armor, but would also only have 16 cha after level 4 asi (point buy). Other ideas include vhuman magic initiate for a free mage armor per day, or a scourge aasimar for +2 cha +1con and cool burning light theme. But I'd definitely need mage armor as a spell for that one.

I really like the theme of phantasmal force, how it can kind of replicate suggestion while also having more in-combat distraction and damage. I'll probably have that and blind/deaf at second level.

Do you ever use polymorph on enemies? I feel like the hound's disadvantage is good but it attacking the target renders that moot. Is polymorph still a good use of spells known if it's only on allies?

Polymorph turns a party member into a massive beast that's less effective than a full-health, full-resource party member, but much more effective than a low-hp, low-resource party member. It's a very good spell and great to combo with Twin. Its not very good to cast on yourself, and its okay to cast on an enemy, though the fact that its a CON save is a big drawback.

Not a huge fan of mountain dwarf here, to be honest. You're casting a lot of CHA-dependent spells. Mountain Dwarf forces you to be an ASI behind, which means all those spells will be worse. I suppose its not much different from spending an ASI on magic initiate, but the rest of the dwarf package doesn't super excite me.

[Xihirli]

Polymorph turns a party member into a massive beast that's less effective than a full-health, full-resource party member, but much more effective than a low-hp, low-resource party member. It's a very good spell and great to combo with Twin. Its not very good to cast on yourself, and its okay to cast on an enemy, though the fact that its a CON save is a big drawback.

Not a huge fan of mountain dwarf here, to be honest. You're casting a lot of CHA-dependent spells. Mountain Dwarf forces you to be an ASI behind, which means all those spells will be worse. I suppose its not much different from spending an ASI on magic initiate, but the rest of the dwarf package doesn't super excite me.

Polymorph is a WIS save.

[strangebloke]

Polymorph is a WIS save.

I always forget that. Probably because it doesn't make any sense.

Thanks though

[micahaphone]

Yeah, right now I'm looking at:

-std human,10/14/16/11/10/16
-Vhuman for alert or magic initiate or war caster, 8/16/14/10/8/16
-mtn dwarf: 10/14/17/ 10/8/15, first asi to 18 con and 16 cha
-scourge aasimar, 10/14/16/8/10/16

I'll admit part of the desire for playing human is to make the most out of getting darkvision from the subclass

[Bobthewizard]

Do you ever use polymorph on enemies? I feel like the hound's disadvantage is good but it attacking the target renders that moot. Is polymorph still a good use of spells known if it's only on allies?

I only use polymorph offensively if I'm playing a Diviner. Even with heightened meta magic or the shadow's hound, I hate using a 4th level slot that might not do anything. It's a great spell defensively. I like dimension door too but I'd wait until level 8.


I'll admit part of the desire for playing human is to make the most out of getting darkvision from the subclass

Anything with a 16 CHA is better. I love playing humans, halflings, and Dragonborn when I play a class that gets some form of Darkvision.

[sophontteks]

I'd ditch twinned. Too expensive. Your metamagics are for hounds and darkness. Empowered is a cheap and effective alternative. Just roll some die and see how effective an empowered fireball is vs. a normal one. It can triple the damage of a low roll. Not very flashy, but super effective.

You want scorching ray for single target. Darkness for advantage on each blast. Good empowered candidate.

Hold person is too situational and its concentration. Blindness/deafness and phantasmal force is enough. You'll be very blasty because you'll almost always be concentrating on darkness.

Halflings make amazing shadow sorcerers, rerolling 1's is nice and you gain darkvision. My halfling hides behind party members while they are walking to ensure he's not hit by any surprise attacks before he moves.

Sickening radiance plus hounds is a sick combo. Use the hounds to grapple on their attack if the DM permits, otherwise have a party member do so. Disadvantage on the saves will be very deadly. This is worth losing concentration when the situation calls for it.

I ditched shield for mage armor, so that I could cast it once and burn the rest of my first level slots on metamagic, but its a tough call. I figured 16 AC plus disadvantage from darkness would be enough.

Finally, the power of darkness is underestimated. Cast darkness on an object and put the object in a bag. The spell lasts 10 times longer then typical concentration spells. When you need darkness take the object out as a free action. Put it back when you no longer need it. You'll want darkness up pretty much any time a situation could go south, even if it means wasting an occasional cast. You can mulch up spells for more darkness anyway.

[Expected]

In my opinion, the best race for any Cha class is Half-Elf, but with Eyes of the Dark from Shadow Sorcerer or Devil's Sight from Warlock 2, Variant Human is a close second if you need the feat.

Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha

Half-Elf
8-14-16-8-12-17
Take Elven Accuracy at level 4 to get 18 Cha and +3 modifier as well as triple advantage (when you have advantage) for attack rolls when using any ability score but Str. The idea (for those dipped into Hexblade Warlock) is to use Eldritch Blast + Quickened Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray and combine with Hexblade's Curse for 1x/SR.

Variant Human
8-14-15-8-12-16
If possible, start as Warlock and take Resilient: Constitution as your level 1 feat. That or War Caster (so you can hold a shield and magic item) or choose anything else and use a component pouch, wield a shield, and keep a free hand until you get a magic item (you'll need War Caster once you do, though).

I also highly suggest dipping 1-3 levels into Hexblade Warlock for Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, Eldritch Blast (and Agonizing Blast), and Shield/Armor of Agathys. I suggest Shadow (or Divine Soul--they're better for support) Sorcerer 5, Hexblade Warlock 2. Take Agonizing Blast +1 other Invocation. Wear medium armor and a shield for higher AC.

As for Metamagic, I prefer Quickened and Subtle (Subtle + Counterspell is amazing, not to mention the multitude of uses in exploration/social) first, then Twinned later if you plan on buffing with Haste, Fly, etc. Mandatory cantrips/spells are Friends (Disguise Self+Friends), Eldritch Blast, Prestidigitation/Minor Illusion, Shield, Absorb Elements, Fireball, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Suggestion/Mass Suggestion, Hold Person/Hold Monster, and Darkness. I love Hypnotic Pattern and other disabling spells, but I feel like Arcane Trickster Rogues do it better with Magical Ambush Hide + Cast a Spell imposing disadvantage to the save.

[micahaphone]

I'll admit I was hoping to not multiclass on this one

[Expected]

In that case, you badly need Mage Armor or to switch to Draconic Bloodline for the feature for AC, otherwise you'll be targeted and will probably go down quickly.

I understand not wanting to multiclass, but as long as you keep 17 levels in Sorcerer, you'll still get 9th level spells. At the very least, dip into Hexblade Warlock for one level. The synergy between Eldritch Blast and Quickened is too good to pass up.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, right now I'm looking at:

-std human,10/14/16/11/10/16
-Vhuman for alert or magic initiate or war caster, 8/16/14/10/8/16
-mtn dwarf: 10/14/17/ 10/8/15, first asi to 18 con and 16 cha
-scourge aasimar, 10/14/16/8/10/16[

I'll admit part of the desire for playing human is to make the most out of getting darkvision from the subclass

I like the bolded option the best.

The mtn. dwarf is behind on Charisma and all your spells care about that. He's tanky as **** but you're a backliner, supposedly, and 17 AC and +4 CON seems like serious overkill.
Std. human gets a couple of extra stats that don't matter in exchange for giving up anything approaching decent AC, or they trade a spell known for those extra stats that don't matter. Either way, bad trade.
Vhuman with magic initiate starts with 16 AC and +2 CON, which seems pretty reasonable for a backliner and you get some free cantrips!
Scourge Aasimar is functional but mechanically bland and there's no particular synergy with anything you're doing. Wooo you get to slap people for extra damage.... why are we slapping people? Protector is more interesting, here.

Dispater Tiefling or Half-elf are definitely synergistic here and I highly recommend them.

[micahaphone]

My current CoS character is/ was a lizardfolk, and as fun as that has been (who cares about what meat goes into those pies? Not me!), I was thinking of a more blend in-able character, so probably human or helf or aasimar.

I saw the recommendation for scorching ray at advantage out of darkness, but I'm currently thinking that with 2 martial allies they have enough focus on single target damage, and I should focus buff/control. Which makes me think I should take haste over slow for twinning, but admittedly I'd prefer using the hound for disadvantage on slow.

Current spell list looks like:



-fire bolt
-shocking grasp
-mending
-minor illusion
-control flames
___________________
Mage armor*
Shield
.............
(Darkness)
Blind/deafness
Phantasmal force
..................
Fireball/lightning bolt
Slow
Counterspell
.....................
*banishment or polymorph
_____________________

If I'm magic initiate vhuman, mage armor can come from the feat, giving me one more spell known, probably to have both 4th level spells

[Bobthewizard]

Which makes me think I should take haste over slow for twinning, but admittedly I'd prefer using the hound for disadvantage on slow.

Current spell list looks like:

-fire bolt
-shocking grasp
-mending
-minor illusion
-control flames
___________________
Mage armor*
Shield
.............
(Darkness)
Blind/deafness
Phantasmal force
..................
Fireball/lightning bolt
Slow
Counterspell
.....................
*banishment or polymorph
_____________________

If I'm magic initiate vhuman, mage armor can come from the feat, giving me one more spell known, probably to have both 4th level spells

You have a good list. I agree with keeping slow over haste, but haste is one of my favorites to twin. It's better if you have a paladin or rogue that can get some extra damage out of one attack.

At level 7, banishment is no different than polymorph offensively. They both take one creature out of the fight on a single save, so I wouldn't take both now. At higher levels, banishment can be upcast to affect more than one creature so I like it better then. I'd probably either add misty step or dimension door or go back and add another crowd control spell like hypnotic pattern, using that if you can avoid friendly fire and slow if you cannot.

If you take hypnotic pattern, another metamagic I love is careful. I think it only works on 4 spells on the whole sorcerer list - hypnotic pattern, fear, confusion, and reverse gravity. But those are all great spells already and careful makes them amazing.

[micahaphone]

Misty step is probably a good defense "oh ****" button to have.

Unrelated, but if you banish an undead creature for the full minute, are they stuck on the shadowfell, like fiends get stuck, or do they return?

[sophontteks]

Misty step is probably a good defense "oh ****" button to have.

Unrelated, but if you banish an undead creature for the full minute, are they stuck on the shadowfell, like fiends get stuck, or do they return?
Not all undead are from the shadowfell as far as I know. But you are playing CoS so it wouldn't matter.

[strangebloke]

Misty step is probably a good defense "oh ****" button to have.

Unrelated, but if you banish an undead creature for the full minute, are they stuck on the shadowfell, like fiends get stuck, or do they return?

side note, as a shadow sorc you might have too many metamagics as is, and quicken metamagic actually can end up working a lot better than Misty Step as an 'oh ****' button.

You just disengage using your action, then quicken a fireball to destroy the monsters that were swarming you. You dash away, eat the OA and quicken a dimension door.

[sophontteks]

side note, as a shadow sorc you might have too many metamagics as is, and quicken metamagic actually can end up working a lot better than Misty Step as an 'oh ****' button.

You just disengage using your action, then quicken a fireball to destroy the monsters that were swarming you. You dash away, eat the OA and quicken a dimension door.

Not even nessesary. With the enhanced darkness they can just walk away. Don't need to disengage when the target can't see you.

[strangebloke]

Not even nessesary. With the enhanced darkness they can just walk away. Don't need to disengage when the target can't see you.

Unless they can.

Personally I'm strongly against relying on darkness for defense. It's all fun and games until you realize that it does nothing to demons, devils, dragons, and like half of the threats in the monster manual. Its more likely to hurt your team than anything else.

[sophontteks]

Unless they can.

Personally I'm strongly against relying on darkness for defense. It's all fun and games until you realize that it does nothing to demons, devils, dragons, and like half of the threats in the monster manual. Its more likely to hurt your team than anything else.

Strongly recommend you don't play a shadow sorcerer then.:smallbiggrin:

[strangebloke]

Strongly recommend you don't play a shadow sorcerer then.:smallbiggrin:

It's just one class feature. Its good some times and a definite strength of the class but you can't rely on it 100% of the time.

And it isn't like Shadow Sorcs don't have anything going for them. At higher levels they have the hound, and the 'drop to 1 instead of dying' ability is really strong.

[micahaphone]

Not even nessesary. With the enhanced darkness they can just walk away. Don't need to disengage when the target can't see you.

But that'd still require using concentration on darkness, right?

[Expected]

But that'd still require using concentration on darkness, right?

Yes, but Darkness with Devil's Sight/Eyes of the Dark is a good use of concentration if the enemies cannot see through it. Otherwise, another concentration spell would be better.

[sophontteks]

It's just one class feature. Its good some times and a definite strength of the class but you can't rely on it 100% of the time.

And it isn't like Shadow Sorcs don't have anything going for them. At higher levels they have the hound, and the 'drop to 1 instead of dying' ability is really strong.
Its CoS so high level isn't going to be a thing and it's definately one of the largest benefits they have. Darkness is really strong since it has a 10 minute duration and can be disabled/enabled as a free action. I've played one in CoS and the darkness on demand was crazy strong. It took the DM by surprise.

It doesn't work vs. everything, but it will work most of the time.

[micahaphone]

Sophontteks, do you think shadow sorcerer below level 10 is better as a dps focus then?


I was focusing on debuff/control, and the only uses I know of for darkness (esp that you can see through) is for advantage on attack rolls, stopping attacks/line of sight casting, or forcing enemies to leave a space.

[Bardon]

You have a good list. I agree with keeping slow over haste, but haste is one of my favorites to twin. It's better if you have a paladin or rogue that can get some extra damage out of one attack.

At level 7, banishment is no different than polymorph offensively. They both take one creature out of the fight on a single save, so I wouldn't take both now. At higher levels, banishment can be upcast to affect more than one creature so I like it better then. I'd probably either add misty step or dimension door or go back and add another crowd control spell like hypnotic pattern, using that if you can avoid friendly fire and slow if you cannot.

If you take hypnotic pattern, another metamagic I love is careful. I think it only works on 4 spells on the whole sorcerer list - hypnotic pattern, fear, confusion, and reverse gravity. But those are all great spells already and careful makes them amazing.

You have a valid point about being able to upcast Banishment, but there is one salient difference between Banishment and Polymorph that's worth taking into consideration: Duration. Banishment takes someone out of the fight for a minute, then they reappear ready for battle. Polymorph takes someone out for an hour, so you have plenty of time to prepare a deathtrap situation for them. Give them a form that's hard to kill but not effective (large turtle leaps to mind - good AC, reasonable HP so there's less chance of them reverting to form from damage, can barely move on land so can't escape or interfere) and when the rest of the enemies are mopped up you can set things up to your best advantage. Mold Earth and Create Bonfire then chuck the turtle into the flames while the party surrounds the pit weapons & spells ready for when they revert to their usual form, that sort of thing. :)

[strangebloke]

Sophontteks, do you think shadow sorcerer below level 10 is better as a dps focus then?


I was focusing on debuff/control, and the only uses I know of for darkness (esp that you can see through) is for advantage on attack rolls, stopping attacks/line of sight casting, or forcing enemies to leave a space.

Not sophontteks but I will say that I don't think casters in general are very good at focusing on DPR. Even the warlock, who is really good at this, tends to fall short. Casters can outpace martials with damage, but only briefly at the cost of their most valuable resources.

Debuffing/controlling is better and will make encounters feel a lot easier than they actually are.