Spellcraft, Detect Magic, and Illusions

[Tor the Fallen]

It seems to me that any mage with max ranks in spellcraft and a reasonably high int modifier will see through most illusions. Also, detect magic- a zero level spell defeating level 5 spells?


Surely that's not how this stuff works, or should work, is it?

[Armads]

I think you need to concentrate for three rounds to get it working. Also, the 1st level spell, Nystull's Magic Aura, can hide magical auras. So, there is rarely time for a wizard in combat to check if there's an illusion or not.

[mostlyharmful]

That sounds fine to me, the cantrip isn't what defeats the spell, it's just there to gather information that the experianced genius level intellect mind of an expert on illusions and spellcasting then interprets. It's the skill spellcraft that defeats the illusion (or a well honed sense of self ie:will save). That being said the illusions aren't generally cast against casters, they're great vs big dumb types like monsters and barbs, exactly what illusions should be aimed at rather than the smartasses that realize the unfeasibility of most encounter winning illusions and scenarios. This also depends on having detect magic up at all times which necesitates permenancy which puts it at a high enough level that there are plenty of scarey things that a competative caster coud also be doing that the illusions won't be the only tactic to watch for.

[KIDS]

The way I see it, a mage can make a spellcraft check to recognize the just-cast spell in his vicinity an illusion (normal DC 15+level) and its name. He could automatically get an attempt to disbelieve it even from distance, and if he shouted a warning to his companions they would get a +2 or something bonus on their Will saves to disbelieve it when they interacted with it (like "it's only an illusion of a pool of acid, but do you dare to jump?).

[Saph]

Yup, determining the school of magic in a magical effect is something detect magic gives you only after three rounds concentration.

Anyway, what are you going to do - detect magic for three rounds on everything you see just to find out if it's an illusion? That's impractical in a fight.

Even outside combat, detect-magicing everything is likely to get you lynched by the rest of your group after the hundredth time or so.

"Is the door magical?"
"No."
"Is the wall magical?"
"No."
"Is the window magical?"
"No."
"I go inside. Is the floor magical?"
"No."
"Are the stairs magical?"
"No."
"Is the furniture magical?"
"No."
"Is anything under the bed magical?"
"No!"
"Are any of the items in the room magical?"
"No!"
"I go upstairs. Is the next door magical?"
"Yes. It's got a wish effect on it."
"Really?"
"No."

- Saph

[Jack Mann]

Even outside combat, detect-magicing everything is likely to get you lynched by the rest of your group after the hundredth time or so.

"Is the door magical?"
"No."
"Is the wall magical?"
"No."
"Is the window magical?"
"No."
"I go inside. Is the floor magical?"
"No."
"Are the stairs magical?"
"No."
"Is the furniture magical?"
"No."
"Is anything under the bed magical?"
"No!"
"Are any of the items in the room magical?"
"No!"
"I go upstairs. Is the next door magical?"
"Yes. It's got a wish effect on it."
"Really?"
"No."

- Saph

It's a good thing detect magic doesn't work like that.

[Kaelik]

It's a good thing detect magic doesn't work like that.

Yes it does? If the paranoid rogue is checking everything for traps then the Wizard has time to concentrate for a bit.

[Solo]

The way I see it, a mage can make a spellcraft check to recognize the just-cast spell in his vicinity an illusion (normal DC 15+level) and its name. He could automatically get an attempt to disbelieve it even from distance, and if he shouted a warning to his companions they would get a +2 or something bonus on their Will saves to disbelieve it when they interacted with it (like "it's only an illusion of a pool of acid, but do you dare to jump?).

How about a pool of illusionary acid.... that covers a pool of real acid?

Brilliant!

[mostlyharmful]

How about a pool of illusionary acid.... that covers a pool of real acid?

Brilliant!

That's a really good idea for a trap... Yoink.

[Solo]

That's a really good idea for a trap... Yoink.

The spellcraft... IT DOES NOTHING!

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm.. permanent arcane sight?

Magic here? No.
Magic there? No.
Magic anywhere in sight? Well, the rogue is basically covered in magical auras, as are you, and the fighter, and the cleric... so no.

[Techonce]

Hmmm.. permanent arcane sight?

Magic here? No.
Magic there? No.
Magic anywhere in sight? Well, the rogue is basically covered in magical auras, as are you, and the fighter, and the cleric... so no.

A few things.

1 Think of the migrane you'd get from all of the auras you'd constantly see.

2. Your glowing blue eyes would make you the target of everyone.

3. Magic aura would spell your doom.

[MrNexx]

2. Your glowing blue eyes would make you the target of everyone.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm

Point to where it says your eyes glow blue.

FWIW, I often make glasses of reading and detecting magic. Useful things to have, and all it requires is two cantrips and Craft Wondrous Item.

[mostlyharmful]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm

Point to where it says your eyes glow blue.

FWIW, I often make glasses of reading and detecting magic. Useful things to have, and all it requires is two cantrips and Craft Wondrous Item.

They're talking about arcane sight, not detect magic

[Mewtarthio]

1 Think of the migrane you'd get from all of the auras you'd constantly see.

Why would that cause migraines any more than normal people constantly seeing all sorts of stuff in the visible electromagnetic spectrum?


2. Your glowing blue eyes would make you the target of everyone.

To solve this, we can ask the mighty Wizard, Cory Hart, how to mitigate such a problem. Cory?

I wear my sunglasses at night
So I can, so I can
Hide my unnatural glowing eyes.


3. Magic aura would spell your doom.

Okay, that would be funny. "Sweet Vecna! This place is filled with auras of necromancy and evocation! I must flee! Ah, good, some normal water with abjuration spells on it! This must be the sacred circle of protection!"

Pity Wizards are so Intelligent.

[Arbitrarity]

A few things.

1 Think of the migrane you'd get from all of the auras you'd constantly see.

2. Your glowing blue eyes would make you the target of everyone.

3. Magic aura would spell your doom.

1) O..k... rules discussion aside, I'm not sure how seeing glowing stuff gives me migraines, y'know, what with all the people who've done this without migraines. Maybe elves, since they don't sleep, get migraines? (Why is there no trope for this!? Psychic nosebleed, but no headaches from magic?!)

2) Contact lenses? :smallbiggrin: Other options include green disintegrate, prestidigitation, Hats of Disguise and so forth.

3) Bwuh?! You mean... I show up as magical? I do anyways. You know how much gear I'm carting around at that level?

Or, do you mean, seeing a magic aura means doom?

[Saph]

I actually ruled out ever getting a permanent Arcane Sight for my wizard just because of the blue-glowing-eyes thing. When I'm not on adventures I like to be able to pretend I'm normal and just chat to people around town, not wear a flashing sign saying "POWERFUL SORCERESS HERE."

And I'm not wearing permanent sunglasses. Not only would it look ridiculous indoors, they'd clash with my headband.

- Saph

[Reel On, Love]

I actually ruled out ever getting a permanent Arcane Sight for my wizard just because of the blue-glowing-eyes thing. When I'm not on adventures I like to be able to pretend I'm normal and just chat to people around town, not wear a flashing sign saying "POWERFUL SORCERESS HERE."

And I'm not wearing permanent sunglasses. Not only would it look ridiculous indoors, they'd clash with my headband.

- Saph

But think of the potential lines!
"Hey, baby. Wanna go back to my place and make some magic?"
"Your eyes are like--holy crap, what the hell is with your eyes?"

---

Incidentally, Detect Magic and the like ferreting them out, Spellcraft identifying them during casting, and such, are valid methods of dealing with the otherwise very powerful Image spells.

[Techonce]

1) O..k... rules discussion aside, I'm not sure how seeing glowing stuff gives me migraines, y'know, what with all the people who've done this without migraines. Maybe elves, since they don't sleep, get migraines? (Why is there no trope for this!? Psychic nosebleed, but no headaches from magic?!)

I was making a joke. I figure the constant sight of magical aura would get a bit tiresome. Detect magic doesn't have the overwhelming aura like detect eveil does, so that's not an issue. I wonder if you would still see the aura if you closed your eyes...



2) Contact lenses? Other options include green disintegrate, prestidigitation, Hats of Disguise and so forth.

Ohh. I don't know if any of those things would make the glowing blue eyes that Arcane Sight causes go away.



3) Bwuh?! You mean... I show up as magical? I do anyways. You know how much gear I'm carting around at that level?

Or, do you mean, seeing a magic aura means doom?

The spell Magic Aura, aka Nystuls magic aura. If you are used to sonstantly seeing the magical auras your character might forget that magical aura can be hidden with a minor spell...

[Tor the Fallen]

What moron casts illusions in a battle? You spy your enemies, cast before hand, and they're gone. If you do it right, no one ever makes a will save, because they decide not to mess with whatever situation you created.

Unless they're a mage. In that case, they get an automatic spellcraft check of 20+spell level (23 for greater image) to know that they're looking at an illusion spell. It's like elves and detecting secret doors, except in this case it's anyone who put ranks in spellcraft and illusions.

And Saph, once you cast detect magic, you can study a room for like 6 seconds and determine if anything is glowing in magic auras. If not, you move on. Note that the range is personal. You don't actually cast it on every single object in the room.

If a suspicious wizard casts detect magic and looks at an illusion, he would realize immediately that something was up when the whole thing glowed like a christmas tree.

[Telvos]

Hypothetical question:

If some guards capture you, and, hating you simply because you are a tiefling and *could* be evil, they find it fun to beat you senseless and carve out your eyes (uh, yeah. Bad stuff happens to me). Would glow still come out of where the eyes used to be? Also, could you see the blurred colors of magic auras, but nothing else?

[Tor the Fallen]

Does anyone actually know a RAW answer?

[Human Paragon 3]

The spellcraft... IT DOES NOTHING!

That is hilarious. Well executed, sir!

[Jack Mann]

Yes it does? If the paranoid rogue is checking everything for traps then the Wizard has time to concentrate for a bit.

Rather, it shouldn't work like that unless you're a complete moron.

You can check the entire area of the cone. You don't need to check each individual object in the rea. Everything you can see within sixty feet. At that point, the DM has a responsibility to just tell you if you see any magical auras (and where they are on the third round of concentration). If a player keeps asking for each individual object, they're either an idiot or being deliberately obtuse.

[SCPRedMage]

Yes it does?
No, it doesn't.

Like Jack Mann said, you check a cone at a time. The first round you have it up, the DM tells you if there are any magic auras in the area. Second round, how many, third round pinpoints them.

You NEVER have to ask if an individual object has a magic aura.

[Kaelik]

No, it doesn't.

Like Jack Mann said, you check a cone at a time. The first round you have it up, the DM tells you if there are any magic auras in the area. Second round, how many, third round pinpoints them.

You NEVER have to ask if an individual object has a magic aura.

I was pretty much just assuming that he was indicating where his vision was going, and since they opened a door and went into another room they would need to check again.

I know how Detect Magic works, I'm just saying that you do have to specifiy that you are concentrating, so you do have to ask the DM, "Magic Auras?" if you want to see things.

[Saph]

And Saph, once you cast detect magic, you can study a room for like 6 seconds and determine if anything is glowing in magic auras. If not, you move on. Note that the range is personal. You don't actually cast it on every single object in the room.

It actually takes longer than that, if you want to cover a room completely; unless the room is cone-shaped, the walls will block you from seeing all the squares in one go. Then you have to look up and down.

Then you have to take into account that divination spells don't go through certain types of barriers, so if a room's cluttered, you have to spend a while studying it from every angle.

But this is all doable. A more serious problem I've found is that DMs often forget to mention some of the magic auras, especially if they're playing from a pre-made module - the spells on the room and monsters and items are usually all listed in different places. I'm playing in a WLD campaign, and when I cast Detect Magic to scan a room the DM always misses at least one aura (have you seen the size of the WLD book?), and I have to go over each thing carefully.

- Saph

[Techonce]

One thing that I've always wondered is if you can walk around with detect magic active. It's a cone shape emination, not a personal spell. If you move, does the cone move with you or is it still from the base square.

[Fixer]

It seems to me that any mage with max ranks in spellcraft and a reasonably high int modifier will see through most illusions. Also, detect magic- a zero level spell defeating level 5 spells?


Surely that's not how this stuff works, or should work, is it?
For myself, I rule the following:

The attempt at detecting magic counts as an attempt at disbelief. If the detector fails their saving throw, the illusion supercedes the detection ability and it radiates whatever the illusion-caster says it does.

Spellcraft works differently. You have to believe or have proof that something is magical to use Spellcraft on it. If you cannot identify an effect you cannot use Spellcraft.

[Tor the Fallen]

For myself, I rule the following:

The attempt at detecting magic counts as an attempt at disbelief. If the detector fails their saving throw, the illusion supercedes the detection ability and it radiates whatever the illusion-caster says it does.

Spellcraft works differently. You have to believe or have proof that something is magical to use Spellcraft on it. If you cannot identify an effect you cannot use Spellcraft.

But spellcraft occurs automatically. It's like being able to sense magic is there, because you know what its signs are. Just like an elf gets to role a search check for a hidden door, even if it doesn't know there's a door there.

I mean, if it doesn't require an action to do, there's no reason why a caster can't say- "i'm making spellcraft checks constantly," as it literally takes no time.

[edit]
Maybe a spellcraft check first, and if that succeeds, then they get a will save?

[Techonce]

It's houseruling it, but I wouldn't allow spellcraft checks to spot an illusion. Once it is figured out it is an illusion, then spell craft might tell you what specific spell created it.




A wizard looks at a tree by the side of the trail. "That tree is an illusion"

Fighter: HOw do you know?

Wiz: Because I know enough about magic to know that there are spells that can create the perfect illusion of a tree, and it looks like the perfect imitation of a tree.

Fighter: Couldn't it just be a real tree?