New Unearthed Arcana: Fighter, Ranger, Rogue (October 17th)

[jaappleton]

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/fighter-ranger-rogue

[solidork]

Audience With Death is one of the coolest ideas they've had in a while.

[Goldlizard]

the 13th level Revived feature is a bit OP. otherwise, I like it.

[stoutstien]

Huh, rune casting as a fighter subclass is a surprise.
Swarm ranger is Candyman incarnated. Once again surprising that it's not a druid.
The revived seems like it would be an awesome Barbarian subclass.

Overall lot of good ideas here they seem... misguided is the right word?

[Daphne]

Looks like I was right that we would get all remaining classes :smalltongue:

Lot's of information in this UA btw.

Rune Knight: Long read. I like the flavor, reminded me of the PrC attempt they did a long time ago. Runes always have an active effect, which is cool. A bit of a bummer that you can't use Defensive Rune in yourself. Giant Stature seems like a ribbon, and usually ribbons are a 7th level feature for Fighters, kinda disappointing.

Swarmkeeper: A bit... weird? I thought this was gonna be a second attempt on Beast Master, but I was very wrong. Gathered Swarm is way too weak imo, at least remove the WIS/day limitation. All features are very long, I lost interest mid way through...

The Revived: Amazing flavor! Bolts of the Grave opens a lot of possibilities in terms of design, but it might be a little overpowered as it is with disengage + sneak attack + dodge all in the same turn.

2/3 for me. Great UA.

[Benny89]

looks ok. Fighter subclass is really good imo, both thematically and mechanically. Not too strong, not weak.

Ranger one is meh... They really really have problems to make Rangers interesting or good in 5e...

Rogue one is kind of nice but I don't understand Bolts from the Grave feature. It says you can use it IMMIDIETLY after you use Cunning Action. Cunning action is bonus action, but it doesn't say if Bolts from the Grave are Action or Reaction? Also how would that work with Extra Attack feature?

[Misterwhisper]

Ok:

So Fighter is just a giant kin sorcerer made into a fighter subclass.

Most of the giant type abilities are fine except for the whole making you large size, giving you a better average damage and resistance like a barbarian.

It is like they could not make the brute fly so they are just ripping off the barbarian a different way.



Ranger is just very odd to me. This subclass seems like it is supposed to be on a druid. Other than that it does not seem that fun to play to me.


Now for the Rogue, my personal favorite class so let's see what they have...

So level 3:

They have 3 different abilities at level 3? Yeah no power creep in 5e or anything...

First one is a floating skill proficiency, on the most or 2nd most skilled class in the game... ok, nothing great but ok.

Next, is, "So your DM won't let you play a warforged?" or "Look I am a zombie.

3rd is... wait a second.

So I can bonus action cunning action to Hide, Disengage, or Dash, then I get to make a free Dex based ranged attack that does my sneak attack damage, and adds my stat... in 30 feet, with no requirements at all.

This is just stupid good. Que everyone taking 3 levels of rogue for a bonus action 2d6 + dex ranged spell attack with a free Dash/hide/disengage attached.

Crazy broken and so obviously so that I can't believe someone wasted the time to type it up.

Anyway, level 9, Connect with the dead, so I can speak with the dead, ok. Then I get a random ability from a table.
Meh.

Level 13:

Audience with death:
Who wrote this? Seriously.
When I make a death save I can ask "A spirit of death" a question that it answers truthfully and has the knowledge of "all those who have died"
This is the kind of stupid garbage I expect to see on DNDwiki or something.
Knowledge of all those who have died? Really, Ok well I always wanted to know if that powerful king from 100 years ago was really assassinated or not. Or if that guy that hired us is cheating us, or heck I want to know what the pass code for Elminster's tower is, I know he has had servants who have died.

Wait there is no limit to it either... Ok, well we are going to spend the next 2 days or so pogo sticking me to death and saving me flatliner style and ask a few hundred questions.

Level 17:
Bonus action 30 ft teleport with no limit... kind of mild compared to the other broken here.


Overall:

Fighter - Barbarian rip off and better.
Ranger - seems out of place and should be a druid
Rogue - horribly broken, multi class baiting, and does not seem roguish at all. It looks like a sorcerer or warlock subclass that was changed over.


This whole thing looks like it was thrown together from other classes.

[stoutstien]

Rune warrior giving a non spell way to gain large size makes for a grapple barbarian with a fairly low entry.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The Revived is cool, very cool, but it seems very forced as a Rogue subclass. It reads to me like it wanted to be a Warlock subclass (Pact of the Veil, Pact of Revival?).

I guess I kind of feel that way for all three of the subclasses. They all seem a bit cobbled together. They're unique for sure but all of them seem a bit out of place, if I had to pick one that seemed least out of place it would probably be the Rune Knight.

[Skyblaze]

Love the Rune Knight. In combat and out of combat uses for a fighter? Hell yes.

[JumboWheat01]

Having played a fair amount of Pillars of Eternity, I will admit, the Rogue specialization tickles my interest something fierce. The advantage on death saving throws may be a bit of a thing, though.

The Fighter option also interest me, though not as much as the Rogue, and the Ranger one does strike me as amusing since you can run around shouting "BEES!" all the time.

[Xenothelm]

I can finally play shino aburame?!?!

[Skyblaze]

The Revived is cool, very cool, but it seems very forced as a Rogue subclass. It reads to me like it wanted to be a Warlock subclass (Pact of the Veil, Pact of Revival?).

I guess I kind of feel that way for all three of the subclasses. They're all seem a bit cobbled together. They're unique for sure but all of them seem a bit out of place, if I had to pick one that seemed least out of place it would probably be the Rune Knight.

Agreed about the rogue subclass, could be a fun warlock subclass idea but Rogue feels a bit odd.

[Daphne]

So Fighter is just a giant kin sorcerer made into a fighter subclass.

And the Rogue is a Shadow Sorcerer made into a Rogue subclass. And that's great imo, it was really lame that the concept of "being born with the power" was only available as a spellcaster.

[VoxRationis]

The "fluttering birds" line for the swarmkeeper ranger makes me want to play a Disney princess character who is constantly surrounded by singing bluebirds.

[Ravinsild]

I absolutely love the Ranger Subclass, or at least I DID until I read the fine print.

I thought it should be tiny fey creatures instead of tiny fey creatures that look like BEASTS, because then you could have faerie dragons, pseudodragons, pixies, sprites, will-o-wisps and really pull off a faerie king vibe that could be quite stunning and thematic. Especially for an Elven Ranger guardian of a hidden glade type deal. Really bring in some of that natures guardian and faerie spirit realm vibes.

Either way I love it.

I also love the Rune Fighter, it's a really exciting subclass.

I'm so-so on the Revived but a lot of people I've been talking to like it so I hope it goes through for them! Someone said it was The Crow (from the movie) haha.

[strangebloke]

Rune Knight seems really strong and flexible. +1d6 to attacks for a minute is a big deal and I'm already expecting some goofy PAM builds. "extra reach and 1d10+1d6+STR+10 damage per attack. Four attacks at level five or six if you surge!!" Seems a lot stronger than samurai or other similar options but that's just me.

Swarm is weird conceptually and I sort of like it? but mechanically it just seems bland. Woohoo, we now have two sources of hunter's mark! Never seen that before. The level 7 feature is cool though.

Revived. Seems likes a class for a 'roleplay-focused' character who doesn't want to actually have to roleplay. "My ability says they have to answer. I dropped myself to zero HP for this!!" Love the flavor, hate the implementation.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm real excited for that fighter. I love gish concepts, and that's a good one with a treasure trove of fun toys. They even remembered to give it out of combat and teamwork-focused powers!

Put one on a team with a Forge Cleric, a Battlesmith Artificer, a Transmutation Wizard, and a Thief Rogue. It's an item frenzy!

[Theodoxus]

I stole archetypes from 4th Edition to add onto Clerics at 3rd level - kinda like Pact Boons for Warlocks. Rune Priest was one of them... interesting to see in implemented as a fighter subclass...

[strangebloke]

I'm real excited for that fighter. I love gish concepts, and that's a good one with a treasure trove of fun toys. They even remembered to give it out of combat and teamwork-focused powers!

Put one on a team with a Forge Cleric, a Battlesmith Artificer, a Transmutation Wizard, and a Thief Rogue. It's an item frenzy!

I agree, I think it strikes a nice balance of having a lot of options and still being comprehensible and flavorful.

[Willie the Duck]

The Fighter option also interest me, though not as much as the Rogue, and the Ranger one does strike me as amusing since you can run around shouting "BEES!" all the time.

I imagine a flighty, cloudcoocoolander character who has translucent pastel butterfly and hummingbird spirits floating up and down their arms (and all over those around them) right up until someone threatens them, whereupon they become black, stark blue, and blood read millipede, scorpion, and wasp spirits (and that hummingbird on your shoulder becomes a skeksis-like skeletal magpie which squawks "I feast on the souls of the weak!"

The biggest problem with the ranger archetype is that the 3rd, 7th, and 11th level features all only occur for wis-modifier # of minutes per day. Which, I'm sorry, is not what a ranger needs (They already have useful 1 minute long low-level spells which fill out that capacity just fine). They do at least get five useful spells.

[Sigreid]

looks ok. Fighter subclass is really good imo, both thematically and mechanically. Not too strong, not weak.

Ranger one is meh... They really really have problems to make Rangers interesting or good in 5e...

Rogue one is kind of nice but I don't understand Bolts from the Grave feature. It says you can use it IMMIDIETLY after you use Cunning Action. Cunning action is bonus action, but it doesn't say if Bolts from the Grave are Action or Reaction? Also how would that work with Extra Attack feature?

I read it as a rider on the cunning action.

[MaxWilson]

The Rune Fighter is amusing for gigantic Halfling GWM fighters, but the really interesting one is the Revived Rogue. It's kind of an awkward fit on the Rogue chassis, but it's still very flavorful (Connect With the Dead and Audience With Death are very interesting) and seems like it would make an interesting novel. Would it make for interesting gameplay though? I'm uncertain, but the fact that the answer might be "yes" means it's the most thought-provoking UA I've seen in a while.

But I do see potential issues. One concern with Connect With the Dead's mechanics is that they're simultaneously unreliable (1/3 chance of getting what you need most in a given situation) and too permissive (if you need Con save proficiency, any old goblin corpse will do). I would have swapped it around so that instead you choose what you're trying to extract from the corpse (language, skill, or saving throw proficiency) and the DM tells you what you get, without revealing whether it came from the corpse or your past self.

Audience With Death lets you swap your personality around whenever you're at death's door, but frankly you could do that anyway, and the reason you do it is probably not because the DM would tell you "no" and more because you don't want to and don't find it dramatically appropriate.

Closing impression: The Revived is very thought-provoking, but ultimately as a DM or a player, I think I'd be inclined to simply lift the Revived's flavor and stick it in a background instead of a subclass. A schizophrenic wizard who believes he contains the selves of multiple past lives, and achieves a new dominant personality every time he wakes up in the morning: why not?

[Amechra]

The Rune Knight should've been a Barbarian subclass, and that's all I'll say on the matter.

It took me a second read to get it, but Swarmkeeper seems really interesting. The damage bump they get at 3rd level is non-targeted and includes forced movement, which is a really interesting way of handling a skirmisher. Writhing Tide is an awesome piece of mobility. Scuttling Eyes is a really good feature for scouting ahead and gives you a mobile teleport point - I also love that you can get more uses of it by burning spell slots, and want to see more of that. And Storm of Minions is a pretty neat AoE. Can we get more Ranger subclasses like this one? kthnxbai

The Revived is... I'm not a fan. The flavor is really cool, but it's another UA subclass with three features at its first level, which include a floating skill proficiency and a stupidly good Sneak Attack enabler (especially in conjunction with Ethereal Jaunt). Audience with Death is thematically cool, but it doesn't feel like it fits with 5e's general design. Seriously, it's essentially advantage on death saves + a free Commune whenever you're dying + a ribbon (it's not like stuff like your Flaw matter). I dunno, it feels pretty messy.

[Sigreid]

It may just be me, but I like the revived on the rogue. I could see having a blast playing it as him not knowing where/how he got all his skills and abilities because they were picked up in past lives. Could be really fun to play a character that kind of creeps himself out.

[Benny89]

I read it as a rider on the cunning action.

Then they should add the standard "as part of the same action" because it kind of strangely worded now.

As for subclass itself I really like it. Makes really thematic Rogue and have tons of roleplay value. And having Rogue with some sort of Warlock splash with his Bolt is kind of cool idea.

[Ravinsild]

The Rune Knight should've been a Barbarian subclass, and that's all I'll say on the matter.

It took me a second read to get it, but Swarmkeeper seems really interesting. The damage bump they get at 3rd level is non-targeted and includes forced movement, which is a really interesting way of handling a skirmisher. Writhing Tide is an awesome piece of mobility. Scuttling Eyes is a really good feature for scouting ahead and gives you a mobile teleport point - I also love that you can get more uses of it by burning spell slots, and want to see more of that. And Storm of Minions is a pretty neat AoE. Can we get more Ranger subclasses like this one? kthnxbai

The Revived is... I'm not a fan. The flavor is really cool, but it's another UA subclass with three features at its first level, which include a floating skill proficiency and a stupidly good Sneak Attack enabler (especially in conjunction with Ethereal Jaunt). Audience with Death is thematically cool, but it doesn't feel like it fits with 5e's general design. Seriously, it's essentially advantage on death saves + a free Commune whenever you're dying + a ribbon (it's not like stuff like your Flaw matter). I dunno, it feels pretty messy.

I'm glad someone else sees the potential in the Swarmkeeper. Really I want to provide feedback it should just be tiny CREATURES not fey spirits that look specifically like beasts. I think Pixies, Sprites, Will-O-Wisps and other such creatures (pseudodragons...) could be a really beautiful/cute aesthetic and really make it feel like its connected to the feywild and nature and the spirits. Hell I don't even know how Sylph isnt a creature in D&D...

[nickl_2000]

I'm glad that there are people out there that like these. In reading them I feel like they are a mess, the abilities seemed forced into the theme and don't match all that well, and the flavor feels like it is all over the place. These just don't feel polished or even close to done, even for UA content.

Luckily for me, I don't have to read them again or play with them. So, I'm glad there is love for them in others.

[jaappleton]

My thoughts:

Fighter subclass is nice. I think it’s fairly balanced. I’d like to see another Rune option or two, but I enjoy seeing them have out of combat uses. Nothing to complain about here.

Ranger... Maybe I am biased because I was really hoping for the Alternative Ranger Class Features we were promised (see my other topic), but I’m not impressed. The ability to essentially send a familiar somewhere to scout, then teleport to it is fairly cool. I like that. But it doesn’t do much for me outside of that one ability, and it’s all very wordy.

Rogue gets.... Rogue gets the Sun Bolt ability from Sun soul Monks, but can sneak attack with it. Which is cool. I see some saying it’s super OP... Not really. It’s Necrotic, which is an OK damage type but far from a good one. You can’t use Feats like Sharpshooter with it. It’s still connected to your bonus action to prevent action economy abuse. I think the ability itself is fine. It might be the most unique archetype we’ve seen in awhile, which is refreshing. I do tend to agree that I don’t... It doesn’t scream ROGUE to me. It screams spellcaster. Warlock or Sorcerer, I could even see Druid with the whole circle of life thing, but not Rogue.

[Spiritchaser]

How are people interpreting “carried” with the rune knight?

It would seem intuitively clear that a dagger in its sheath should count...

At least the way I see it.

Given that you can have rather more runes than you can use without awkwardness or juggling otherwise.

[Fnissalot]

Runeknight looks good but not broken or over powered. Lots of flavour.

Swarmkeeper is ok. It has 3 rather complex abilities. The gathered swarm is lacking at level 3 but gets rmuch better at 7. Wisdom uses per long rest, and only bonus damage and push on one attack per round is hurting it a lot. It is way more Wis focused than previous subclasses.

Revived, inquisitive also had 3 features at level 3. So no worries about that. Bolts from the grave is on par with crossbow expert for a rogue(shorter range and less damage but adds a disengage or extra movement). If you take the disengage action, it will probably shoot while you still are in melee since it is immediately. Connect with the dead is cool. Audience with death is slightly problematic and probably should be limited to once per long rest or only let you ask when you fail a saving throw.

[Daghoulish]

I really like the fighter rune scribe. Adding more support/passive options while also giving the option to be offensive is something that I really like.

I need to get around to really reading the ranger one, but rangers don't interest me too much.

I do have a problem with the rogue. Bolt from the Grave is too strong to me. As is the only requirement is that you haven't sneak attacked this turn, meaning you could cunning action at the start of your turn and bolt. Great you got a necrotic sneak attack! Now they can use their action to ready an attack and get another sneak attack. or if they missed they can just try again. It's giving them to benefits of TWF without the drawback of losing cunning action.

[jaappleton]

Defensive Runes doesn't have a limit as to how often it can happen.

Is that too much? I think the newest Paladin, Heroism, got a similar ability, didn't it?

[Nidgit]

Rune Knight is just a better Barbarian. Seriously, Hill Rune+Giant Might includes everything Rage does but adds more damage onto potentially more attacks at high level. Huge disparity in the strength of the runes too. Way too frontloaded, and strong all the way through.

Love the Swarmkeeper, even if it is a tad on the weak side and feels more Druidic than Ranger. Most of it is fine but Storm of Minions should be boosted and Gathered Swarm should be unlimited uses.

The Revived...why is it a Rogue? That first ability is pretty strong but the rest are just ok. I just don't get the flavor at all- seems like it should be a Warlock.

[stoutstien]

How would bolt from the grace work with hide? Since a part of the same action it interesting.

Also, large gnomish wrestler with rune fist?

[Ravinsild]

For those of you confused why The Revived is a Rogue thing...I believe they are taking a leaf from 4e and basically have a few categories like primal/fey/divine/martial/arcane and they are adding those flavors to other classes, like Celestial Sorcerer = divine sorcerer splash on an arcane class, same with celestial pact for Warlock, and the Knowledge/Arcana Domain for Clerics adds a bit of Arcane. This is a splash of Divine onto the martial since we already have arcane in Arcane Trickster, and a bit of primal with scout.

[xen]

Ok:
Snip

heck I want to know what the pass code for Elminster's tower is, I know he has had servants who have died.

Wait there is no limit to it either... Ok, well we are going to spend the next 2 days or so pogo sticking me to death and saving me flatliner style and ask a few hundred questions.

Snip


Unless Elminster's pass code is yes, no or unknown that won't work.

[Waterdeep Merch]

How are people interpreting “carried” with the rune knight?

It would seem intuitively clear that a dagger in its sheath should count...

At least the way I see it.

Given that you can have rather more runes than you can use without awkwardness or juggling otherwise.
Since it includes things like being better at tool use, I'd assume sheathed is fine. Though forcing the blacksmith fighter to keep waving around his sword while trying to make a new one is kind of hilarious.

Even running your maximum of five of these on your person at the same time late-game, that doesn't strike me as insanely strong or anything. Good, and not a bad way to do things (though I think their power to buff others with it is more interesting), but not broken.

[rbstr]

The ranger's 3rd level ability is pretty decent. One bonus action for and extra d6 and push for a while combat? at 3-5 times a day you're doing pretty well especially given all single-combat short rest nerfing adventure day complaints we hear around here.
Consider the horizon walker, a bonus action per round for a d8, even if you can do it forever. Then it gets quite good at level 7.


I really really like the rune fighter. Very cool.

The rogue's weird bonus action can also basically be considered another chance at landing sneak attack if you wiff your attack. Gives a bit of a trade-off too. Do you use the sneak when you hit with an attack or try to get the extra +Dex even though you might miss? (Probably not, which is why it's not that strong a feature even if it seems so)

[Fnissalot]

Unless Elminster's pass code is yes, no or unknown that won't work.

Is it a?
No
Is it b?
No
...
Is it 9999?
Still no...
Is it... **** I died...


How would bolt from the grace work with hide? Since a part of the same action it interesting.


It is after the action so you get advantage on the attack if you successfully his but then you reveal yourself when you shoot. So not got for keeping hidden..

[Daphne]

I don't know if Rune Knight really needs Giant Might, the Runes already pack a punch and scales really well. Compare it to the Arcane Archer who only ever has 2 shots /rest until level 15.


I see some saying it’s super OP... Not really. It’s Necrotic, which is an OK damage type but far from a good one. You can’t use Feats like Sharpshooter with it. It’s still connected to your bonus action to prevent action economy abuse.

You can still take an action after using it, so you sneak attack and dodge or ready an attack for two sneak attacks per round.

[jaappleton]

Is it a?
No
Is it b?
No
...
Is it 9999?
Still no...
Is it... **** I died...

Actually...

Combining that feature with the Onomancy Wizard (Truenamer) could be quite interesting. You find their parent, child, sibling, rival, whatever, and ask if they can reveal someones True Name? Nothing says they can't show you a vision or something. DMs discretion, of course, but it makes for some very interesting interaction.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Unless Elminster's pass code is yes, no or unknown that won't work.

Spend a few days (more realistically, months or years) with your cleric friend, a dictionary (of several different languages) and a stationary pool of water to drown yourself in and you might narrow down the answer in your lifetime. Let's hope you had the foresight to ask "do the dead know the current code to enter Elminster's tower" before you started this line of questioning though.

[Fnissalot]

I don't know if Rune Knight really needs Giant Might, the Runes already pack a punch and scales really well. Compare it to the Arcane Archer who only ever has 2 shots /rest until level 15.



You can still take an action after using it, so you sneak attack and dodge or ready an attack for two sneak attacks per round.

It is not the first time you have abilities that helps rogues get the reaction sneak attack.

[LtPowers]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Rune Knight doesn't have to be the one holding those items, right? He can inscribe a rune and hand it off to the Barbarian or whoever, right?


Powers &8^]

[Spiritchaser]

Even running your maximum of five of these on your person at the same time late-game, that doesn't strike me as insanely strong or anything. Good, and not a bad way to do things (though I think their power to buff others with it is more interesting), but not broken.

I really like the mechanics, I like the concept, I think it’s potentially a very durable and interesting “pillar of the team” type of character.

The only problem I have (and it’s a serious one that others have pointed out) is that it feels like it steals the barbarian’s lunch.

However much I might like this fighter, that’s just not right.

[Skyblaze]

Rune Knight is just a better Barbarian. Seriously, Hill Rune+Giant Might includes everything Rage does but adds more damage onto potentially more attacks at high level.

I wouldn't say better. Your comparison is a class feature (rage) vs subclass features (rune knight stuff). Its strong (and I think the giant might should be add damage to one attack similar to Hunter subclass) but I don't think its "better" just for two abilities that = rage (also it would take two turns to get both abilities online + you'd only be able to use giant might once per long rest).

[Fnissalot]

Spend a few days (more realistically, months or years) with your cleric friend, a dictionary (of several different languages) and a stationary pool of water to drown yourself in and you might narrow down the answer in your lifetime. Let's hope you had the foresight to ask "do the dead know the current code to enter Elminster's tower" before you started this line of questioning though.

Is it not easier to go to his tower and try it there directly? That should be easier?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Spend a few days (more realistically, months or years) with your cleric friend, a dictionary (of several different languages) and a stationary pool of water to drown yourself in and you might narrow down the answer in your lifetime. Let's hope you had the foresight to ask "do the dead know the current code to enter Elminster's tower" before you started this line of questioning though.
Drowning won't work. They don't breathe.

Or eat, or drink. Or even sleep. I can't think of any way to get them to make death saves that doesn't involve violence and HP loss. That might actually be to prevent divination via drowning.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Is it not easier to go to his tower and try it there directly? That should be easier?

Elminster may generally be considered a benevolent wizard (or at least not evil) but I doubt he would leave his tower unprotected from potential intrusion. It would certainly be easier right up until you trigger any potential security systems.

But I thought the example was meant to be ridiculous, you'd probably have an even easier time just having the cleric friend you're using to revive you after each drowning use Divine Intervention to have a god give them the answer directly.

Drowning won't work. They don't breathe.

Or eat, or drink. Or even sleep. I can't think of any way to get them to make death saves that doesn't involve violence and HP loss. That might actually be to prevent divination via drowning.
Pretty big oversight on my part. New plan, hire a Barbarian and a Cleric.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Pretty big oversight on my part. New plan, hire a Barbarian and a Cleric.
A 3 level dip into Zealot Barbarian can let you spam this reliably and cheaply so long as you've got that cleric on hand. Have to be level 16, so all in all it's not the most busted thing in the universe, but a pretty funny trick.

[Luccan]

Woah, what? They actually came back to Runes? They aren't quite as interesting, but still surprised.

Bug Ranger is cool. But their Gathered Swarm ability is worded oddly. It seems the swarm is always there and Gathered Swarm is the activated effect that gives you bonus damage and push/pull? That would seem to limit things like disguises.

Revived is yet another way to remove wilderness survival as part of the game outside extreme environments. It also gives you a weird bonus ranged attack and essentially lets you SA without having to meet normal requirements. I like it fluff-wise, but I have problems with features that let you shuffle proficiencies and Bolts from the Grave is a weird thing for a Rogue. Honestly, the whole subclass seems weird for a Rogue.

[xen]

Drowning won't work. They don't breathe.

Or eat, or drink. Or even sleep. I can't think of any way to get them to make death saves that doesn't involve violence and HP loss. That might actually be to prevent divination via drowning.

Well I have 83 holes in my chest now but at least I figured out Elminster's password has a Q and the @ symbol in it.

[Brookshw]

Okay, I dig it and am looking forward to running a warforged rune knight, in part just so I can shout "transform" and get bigger.

[Spiritchaser]

Well I have 83 holes in my chest now but at least I figured out Elminster's password has a Q and the @ symbol in it.

Elminster reads UA

Orders Cyrillic keyboard on amazon

[ProsecutorGodot]

A 3 level dip into Zealot Barbarian can let you spam this reliably and cheaply so long as you've got that cleric on hand. Have to be level 16, so all in all it's not the most busted thing in the universe, but a pretty funny trick.

The Revived is already like having a get out of jail free card with death, Zealot meaning that a god likes you enough to keep you from being dead for long is overkill to the extreme.

I'm getting some massive Re:Zero vibes from this idea now, you're gonna have a real messed up individual by the time you find the answer you're looking for.

[Beechgnome]

Revived fluff and skill-wise reminds me a bit of Matt Cauthon from the Wheel of Time. I don't like the necrotic blast though; seems un-rogue like.

I like swarms and have written some wordy swarm homebrew. Again, too many words here. I like the idea behind it, but not the execution. It also brings us closer to the classic SCTV 'Vikings and Beekeepers' scenario.

Rune fighter seems fine, though runes don't really do it for me.

[Luccan]

The Audience with Death feature is mostly a problem because, like all divinations, a player can want to know something the DM hadn't thought of. It's more limited than some, but there are perfectly logical yes/no questions any given dead person ever might know the answer to that the DM just hadn't considered. Unlike most of the more powerful divinations, though, the player gets to do it anytime they make a death save, which means it isn't as easy to prep for

[GlenSmash!]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Rune Knight doesn't have to be the one holding those items, right? He can inscribe a rune and hand it off to the Barbarian or whoever, right?


Powers &8^]

Th language of all the abilities says "you" implying that while you could hand the items to someone else, they cannot gain the benefits of the Runes. Only You can.

[micahaphone]

Isn't it super strong that a revived rogue could bonus action hide, shoot their necrotic sneak attack, then ready action to shoot someone for 2x sneak attack every round? I feel like that should be much higher than level 3, or happen Con mod times per long rest

[Aett_Thorn]

So can the Revived Rogue use his bonus action to Cunning Action, get “sneak attack”, and then Use his Action to Ready an Action to attack and get a second sneak that turn without any resource use at all?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Truck-kun Can't Get Enough of Me so Now I'm Adventuring with My Information Cheat Ability In Another World

[strangebloke]

The Audience with Death feature is mostly a problem because, like all divinations, a player can want to know something the DM hadn't thought of. It's more limited than some, but there are perfectly logical yes/no questions any given dead person ever might know the answer to that the DM just hadn't considered. Unlike most of the more powerful divinations, though, the player gets to do it anytime they make a death save, which means it isn't as easy to prep for

Well, and to be honest, the bigger problem is that the PC can force death saves on himself to get answers. It's not even that cheesy, really. Its the sort of thing you'd see in fiction. "Odin hanging on the tree with a spear in his side" kind of nonsense.

Just seems like too openended an ability.

[Protolisk]

For Audience with Death, yeah, the rogue can get good info from it, but they need to nearly die. There is a chance of death, unless their allies have healing magic (spell slots) or good medicine checks. Checks can still fail, but yes, they could try to cheese a solution to some problem by constantly dying. It's pretty risky, or in the case of healing, costs some spell slots.

[Kane0]

Rune Knight:
Like Truenaming/Truespeech, I feel like this would be better off as a standalone subsystem rather than a subclass. What if an Artificer or Wizard wanted to study and work with Runes? A Goliath cleric of a Giant deity? Have these runes operate using attunement so it isn't a straight power boost.
The runes themselves need a balance and wording pass, notably the Fire rune can be used for 4x Prof with tools when used with Expertise (different wording means double prof bonus added twice).
I like Giant Might, basically being bonus action Enlarge on yourself without concentration.
Defensive Runes 1 + Int is maybe a touch too much bookkeeping than 5e strives for, just + Int should do it, especially since this is at-will
Great Stature growing 3d4 inches really seems like a flavor thing than something that should be in the mechanics like that. It feels out of place. I wouldn't expect my eyes to start glowing just because I levelled up from sorcerer 6 to 7.
Blessing of the Allfather looks good. Good to see this subclass isn't powercreep.

Swarmkeeper
Bonus spells are good, bonus spells for Hunter and Beastmaster when? Could do without Mage Hand though.
Gathered Swarm, i'm not seeing the connection to the force damage here, try poison or something. The 5' random movement is a nice touch though, like Infestation
Writhing Tide is fun
Scuttling eyes doesn't feel very special when anyone with a familiar has been doing the same sort of trick from level 1 and then again at level 7 with Arcane Eye. I think this feature should be replaced with the ability to shapeshift into part of your swarm for a short time.
Swarm of minions is cool but the damage is poor for when you get it. At least the blinded rider and healing are good.

Revived
The concept works much better as a background rather than subclass. Remember the revenant 'race' and undying warlock patron exist too, plus reincarnation and the existence of resurrection magics as potential worldbuilding elements.
Tokens of past lives is good, though perhaps copying from the knowledge cleric
Revived nature is a LOT to hand out at level 3, compare to the shadow sorcerer and invocations required for similar with a warlock.
Bolts from the Grave, okay seriously far too much at level 3, please stop. Take out revived nature entirely and just leave this, it's much more unique and fun.
Connect with the Dead is neat, better than Speak with Dead as a ritual and I like it.
Audience with Death is again neat and I like it. I don't really like the theme being Rogue-locked but within that flavor this fits the bill. You can also use this as a poor mans Commune if you're willing to be knocked to 0 to get it (and given you have advantage on death saves the risk is largely reduced even if you aren't healed up, and healers kits are cheap)
Ethereal Jaunt is great but the wording really needs cleaning up.

Overall, I'm much happier with these compared to the Cleric/Druid/Wizard. Also nice that they aren't just rehashing what has already been done (Revived Rogue gets a pass because the mechanics are pretty unique).

[Luccan]

For Audience with Death, yeah, the rogue can get good info from it, but they need to nearly die. There is a chance of death, unless their allies have healing magic (spell slots) or good medicine checks. Checks can still fail, but yes, they could try to cheese a solution to some problem by constantly dying. It's pretty risky, or in the case of healing, costs some spell slots.

It's not completely broken, which is why it isn't actually in my problems with the class mechanically, but it's one of those things where it stands a fair chance of either halting a game or leaving a player unsatisfied. It's also kind of bad because of how unhelpful it could be. If you don't cheese it, you probably won't use it much and you might only ever get "unknown" even if your DM is prepped for your questions. So it seems like it has a very narrow area of being both satisfying for the player and not a headache for the DM. Which you don't really want out of your only 13th level feature.

[strangebloke]

For Audience with Death, yeah, the rogue can get good info from it, but they need to nearly die. There is a chance of death, unless their allies have healing magic (spell slots) or good medicine checks. Checks can still fail, but yes, they could try to cheese a solution to some problem by constantly dying. It's pretty risky, or in the case of healing, costs some spell slots.

It isn't remotely risky. You bleed yourself to zero, wait 'two rounds' and then get auto-stabilitized with a healer's kit, then dropped back to zero.

[MinimanMidget]

I love the Rune Knight...but I hate the non-rune giant-related features. If its thing is runes, let its thing be runes. Runes are cool, they don't need to tack random giant stuff on as well.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Isn't it super strong that a revived rogue could bonus action hide, shoot their necrotic sneak attack, then ready action to shoot someone for 2x sneak attack every round? I feel like that should be much higher than level 3, or happen Con mod times per long rest

I guess the only downside is that if they employ this strategy trying to use Cunning Action to hide that they would never have the benefits of being hidden beyond their necrotic bolt.

That's about the only downside I can see to just readying an action to attack immediately after you see the next person in initiative begin move.

[Dork_Forge]

Level 17:
Bonus action 30 ft teleport with no limit... kind of mild compared to the other broken here.

As a stand alone feature its kind of cool but eh at such a high level, but they made it part of cunning action. So now you can Nightcrawler it up as much as you want, whilst blasting people (without economy tax) and then you can think of a use for your actual action.

[ThePolarBear]

At a first look: I like them.

It's just the Revived that... sort of feels a bit like "Warlock 2: the return" with the Sneak Attack Bolt on bonus action.

That... that i don't really like.

I also feel like that there might be some "action economy" problems from this. While it is true it is not really a "true" sneak attack, it's an additional ranged option that doesn't cost anything at all to perform other than using the bonus action on something that most rogues would already be doing. It feels like the bonus action itself could become the action, and the action then loses a bit - or a lot - of meaning.

Edit: i also kind of have a thing against "unlimited" teleports without strict usage conditions. But oh well. It is not the first one.

[Benny89]

the longer I read it the more I like Fighter and Rogue. Variant Human PAM GWM Rune Knight would be SICK with runes + his Giant form. Great stuff and a lot of flavour here.

Revived can do some sick stuff like Cunning Action Disengage -> Bolt -> Ready Action (enemy attack ally in melee etc.) and shoot as reaction second time with 2 Sneak Attacks. I want to try it out right now.

I bet more combos for those two are out there but I need to dig more of what you can do with it.

[Rukelnikov]

Adding to the many comparisons, I immediately though Revived was trying to emulate The Nameless One, remembering skills of your "past lives", and personality changing every time you are near death, I was actually expectig the subclass to get some sort of revivify like ability as its capstone.

Aside from fluff (which I like), the subclass is too strong compared to other Rogues, the free SA rider to Cunning Action makes the double SA round the norm for this Rogue, which is a tactic many other builds have to hoop a bit for, and don't generally get it at lvl 3.

And as many have stated before Audience with Death is extremely abusable, I'd limit it to work only on the first time you make a DS in the day, and also think it would be better if it worked when you fail a DS, signifying you getting closer to the dead. However that would be to weak for a 13th level feature.... IDK how I'd leave it, but i'm sure it needs reworking.

Ranger is meh.

Rune Knight, like the fluff, however the runes themselves seem a bit underwhelming for their passives, and a bit strong for their actives. I was expecting something more akin to SKT runes, where you could have the runes in their "pure form" (carved on a gemstone normally), or trace them on an object which would have different properties depending on the object. For example SKT's Ild Rune granted resistance to cold damage and allowed you to ignite objects or extinguish fires within 10 ft of you as an action. You could optionally transfer the rune to a weapon granting it a +1d6 fire damage, or to a suit of armor granting it resistance to cold (I know its not balanced, no reason to transfer the rune to the armor for effectively losing features... but the idea is what I like).

[jaappleton]

DracoKnight pointed this out to me via Twitter

Deurgar Rune Knight

Enlarge via racial spell
Giant Form

You’re now Huge. And I believe this works at level 3.

Huge PC at lv3. Don’t think that’s ever been possible.

If you’ve ever wanted to play The Hulk, here’s your chance.

[Protolisk]

It isn't remotely risky. You bleed yourself to zero, wait 'two rounds' and then get auto-stabilitized with a healer's kit, then dropped back to zero.

If you are in a safe enough place to wait these turns and use healers kit uses at level 13, and subsequently not fear imminent death as they have 1 HP, then you are in a safe enough place for Clerics to do a ritual to call up their god, or wizards to call up a different plane, druids calling up Mother Nature, at literal zero cost other than time. And they've been doing this since level 9, when they get Commune/with Nature/Contact other plane.

[Benny89]

DracoKnight pointed this out to me via Twitter

Deurgar Rune Knight

Enlarge via racial spell
Giant Form

You’re now Huge. And I believe this works at level 3.

Huge PC at lv3. Don’t think that’s ever been possible.

If you’ve ever wanted to play The Hulk, here’s your chance.

Omg...that is AWESOME! :D

[DracoKnight]

Omg...that is AWESOME! :D

I thought so, too :smallbiggrin:

[EdenIndustries]

It seems odd that Rune Knight's runes can't be given to others, no? As an extreme example, at level 15 you can imbue 5 objects per short rest with runes, but they have to be weapons, armour, or shields. Are you packing that much gear yourself? I mean I guess if you just have weapons stowed away that you're not using and still slap runes on them...

[Protolisk]

It seems odd that Rune Knight's runes can't be given to others, no? As an extreme example, at level 15 you can imbue 5 objects per short rest with runes, but they have to be weapons, armour, or shields. Are you packing that much gear yourself? I mean I guess if you just have weapons stowed away that you're not using and still slap runes on them...

A fighter's most restrictive starting gear is chainmail, two marital weapons, and light crossbow. That's already 4 out of 5.

The options for the most items is leather armor, a longbow, a marital weapon and shield, and two handaxes. That's 6 out of 5 needed.

Game expects a level 1 character to have about all the items needed to reach the maximum of 5 runes.

[EdenIndustries]

A fighter's most restrictive starting gear is chainmail, two marital weapons, and light crossbow. That's already 4 out of 5.

The options for the most items is leather armor, a longbow, a marital weapon and shield, and two handaxes. That's 6 out of 5 needed.

Game expects a level 1 character to have about all the items needed to reach the maximum of 5 runes.

Sure...I know a Fighter can carry all that. I guess I'm just balking at the idea of keeping runes on the two handaxes buried in your backpack somewhere and still drawing power from them, versus weapons you're actively using and holding.

[Rukelnikov]

DracoKnight pointed this out to me via Twitter

Deurgar Rune Knight

Enlarge via racial spell
Giant Form

You’re now Huge. And I believe this works at level 3.

Huge PC at lv3. Don’t think that’s ever been possible.

If you’ve ever wanted to play The Hulk, here’s your chance.

This does work, but it has to be done in the opposite order, first Giant Form, then Enlarge spell, since Giant Form doesn't change you from Large to Huge, it sets your size to Large if its smaller, then Enlarge makes you Huge.

[Mikal]

It seems odd that Rune Knight's runes can't be given to others, no? As an extreme example, at level 15 you can imbue 5 objects per short rest with runes, but they have to be weapons, armour, or shields. Are you packing that much gear yourself? I mean I guess if you just have weapons stowed away that you're not using and still slap runes on them...

Who says they can't be given to others?

[EdenIndustries]

Who says they can't be given to others?

All the language says "you". So I suppose you can give them to people, they just won't be able to derive any benefit from it. Unless I'm reading it wrong? But it's a lot of "you can invoke..." "when you hit..." etc.

[GlenSmash!]

A fighter's most restrictive starting gear is chainmail, two marital weapons, and light crossbow. That's already 4 out of 5.

The options for the most items is leather armor, a longbow, a marital weapon and shield, and two handaxes. That's 6 out of 5 needed.

Game expects a level 1 character to have about all the items needed to reach the maximum of 5 runes.

With the right background like soldier or sailor you can get an additional weapon.

[Zevox]

I have to say, I am utterly baffled by that Rogue subclass. I don't get the flavor they're going for - it seems to mix together ideas based on the character having past lives they don't remember but can call on skills from, ideas based on the character being kind-of-but-not-really undead, and based on the character having some sort of special connection with death itself, all of which seem at odds with each other in one way or another. Not to mention that resurrection and reincarnation already work a certain way in D&D by default, and it doesn't include any of this. Plus, well, why is this a Rogue subclass specifically? Or a subclass at all, for that matter? It feels like the flavor belongs on a custom background designed for a very specific character concept, and the abilities would fit better on a Warlock or Cleric with connections to a Death God of one type or another. Kind of seems like a mess to me.

And mechanically, well, Connect With Dead feels awkward in that you only get the random mechanical bonus after you've used your daily casting of the spell, but it's kind of a niche spell you may or may not use on a given day. And that "Audience with Death" ability seems stupidly abuseable if players are willing to just keeping knocking the Rogue out and then healing them after a a failed save or two. And what's even up with the "you can change a personality trait, ideal, bond, or flaw after using this" thing tacked on to the end of it? You can kind of do that any time if it makes sense, it's called roleplaying. Don't even see a thematic reason for it, it's just odd.

Yeah, don't like that one. Rune Knight's kind of cool, though I do wonder if some of those runes aren't a bit out of whack with the others in power terms (Frost and the second Storm, specifically). Also, very minor point, but it seems odd that the Giant Knight feature is basically the Enlarge spell, but gives a 1d6 damage boost instead of that spell's 1d4.

As for Swarmkeeper, eh, I get what they were going for, and there's probably people it would appeal to, but I'm not one of them personally.

[Rynjin]

I'm glad they're finally starting to get creative with class abilities for 5e.

[Sigreid]

It isn't remotely risky. You bleed yourself to zero, wait 'two rounds' and then get auto-stabilitized with a healer's kit, then dropped back to zero.

It isn't risky until you find your party attacked unexpectedly.

And yes, no and unknown doesn't really give you much in the way of new information. It more of allows you to confirm what you already suspect.

[MaxWilson]

I guess the only downside is that if they employ this strategy trying to use Cunning Action to hide that they would never have the benefits of being hidden beyond their necrotic bolt.

That's about the only downside I can see to just readying an action to attack immediately after you see the next person in initiative begin move.

It's worse than that. If you use your Cunning Action to Hide behind total cover, "immediately after" doesn't allow you to move, so your shot is blocked by total cover. Only in rare situations would you be able to both Cunning Action (Hide) and shoot necrotic bolts with the same cunning action. Mostly you'd be Disengaging or Dashing instead.


It isn't remotely risky. You bleed yourself to zero, wait 'two rounds' and then get auto-stabilitized with a healer's kit, then dropped back to zero.

Waiting two rounds is risky because theoretically you could roll at least one natural 1, which counts as two failed death saves. Waiting one round and then getting auto-stabilized is safe, but two rounds will kill you about 1 time in 20 if I'm not goofing up my math guesstimate.

[Beechgnome]

Waiting two rounds is risky because theoretically you could roll at least one natural 1, which counts as two failed death saves. Waiting one round and then getting auto-stabilized is safe, but two rounds will kill you about 1 time in 20 if I'm not goofing up my math guesstimate.

With advantage on the save you are unlikely to roll a 1. 1 in 400. And halfling revived rogues...well they were born lucky I guess.

[J-H]

These all look pretty good. Rune Fighter is kind of boring - I'd rather play an EK - but I'm not a Fighter-guy anyway.

Swarmkeeper looks like a great NPC opponent class. The added versatility should be nice on top of the ranger chassis, so reasonably OK for that too. It's still no Warlock.

The Revived is...interesting. I think I like it. It does invalidate the dual-wielding Rogue, though.
DW: Attack; miss; bonus action attack for a 2nd shot at sneak attack.
Revived: Attack; miss; Cunning action disengage; move away; ranged spell attack for sneak attack damage with a usually-non-resisted element

Bolts from the Grave will be, at best, 1d6 (shortsword) less damage than a normal off-hand attack, while being lower risk and less resisted. I would tune it down to d4s, I think.

[ThePolarBear]

Only in rare situations would you be able to both Cunning Action (Hide) and shoot necrotic bolts with the same cunning action.

About as rare as being able to hide in darkness. So, not that rare. Also, no need for total cover to hide to begin with so...


but two rounds will kill you about 1 time in 20 if I'm not goofing up my math guesstimate.

Automatic advantage on death saving throws...

[CNagy]

The Audience with Death doesn't actually seem that bad. "Unknown" is probably going to do some heavy lifting on the key details, because Death specifically has the knowledge of everyone who has died. "Is our employer going to cheat us?" Well, unless someone overheard those plans and then croaked, Death is just going to shrug at you. "Does the Bandit leader have an escape route?" Maybe you get an answer on that, which could inform your plans a bit. I think what we're all ignoring is the troll potential of this ability: ask yes/no details about your party members' pasts. How many adventurers still have parents alive and kicking, anyway?

[GlenSmash!]

With advantage on the save you are unlikely to roll a 1. 1 in 400. And halfling revived rogues...well they were born lucky I guess.

Reborn lucky

[Daithi]

Rune Knight: I like the Rune idea. However, I don't like needing INT to tap into the power of the Runes. It would have been better if they just went with CON as the DC modifier.

Swarmkeeper: This one is disgustingly creepy. If he were in my party, I'd probably have to kill him straight out of the gate. I'm just not a fan of the creepy crawly bugs and rats. On the other hand, I think he'd probably make a great villain.

The Revived: I kind of like this one. I'd still probably rather play one of the rogue sub-classes, but I can see where this could fit into certain campaigns.

None of them look particularly overpowered. On the flip side, I'm not sure I'd want to play any of them.

[Sigreid]

The Revived: I kind of like this one. I'd still probably rather play one of the rogue sub-classes, but I can see where this could fit into certain campaigns.

None of them look particularly overpowered. On the flip side, I'm not sure I'd want to play any of them.

I could have a lot of fun with RP on the Revived playing the character with a sort of multiple personality disorder; changing his personality and speech patterns based on which past life had the skills to accomplish his current task. That sort of thing.

[Spiritchaser]

I could have a lot of fun with RP on the Revived playing the character with a sort of multiple personality disorder; changing his personality and speech patterns based on which past life had the skills to accomplish his current task. That sort of thing.

You’ve just created an NPC for me... thanks!

[stoutstien]

A revived Warforged that lives on the souls on those who die near him?

A swarmkeeper firbolg?

A mad dwarf who channels the power of giants with runes scribed in the blood of certain creatures?

Lots of good RP material here even if I feel the subclasses should be on different classes.

[Sparky McDibben]

So I'm a liitle disappointed to see so much hate for the Revived Rogue. I think this looks great! It's a great Shadowfell-themed rogue. Bolts of the Grave allows you to capitalize on the rogue's already solid action economy while allowing you to be less party-dependent. And the concerns about the rogue cheesing their questions of death is a little overblown. Like someone else said, other classes can spam divination spells as rituals all day long with zero cost. So I love this rogue.

On the Ranger, I think there's some flavor options we're missing. What if your swarm were a dozen bluebirds...and now your ranger is a Disney princess who has her woodland friends helping her out. A lot depends on how you flavor the swarm. You could go the squicky Zerg route...but nothing actually states your swarm uses a statblock dependent on swarming. So you could definitely color this toward enchantment and whimsy and have your ranger be attended by spirit-pixies from the Feywild. Or you could have surrounded by the screaming ghosts of tormented souls the ranger is helping to move on. In return, the souls protect them.

Love the Rune Knight, full stop. Giants need more love.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think what we're all ignoring is the troll potential of this ability: ask yes/no details about your party members' pasts. How many adventurers still have parents alive and kicking, anyway?

Oh it definitely crossed my mind, players with tragic backstories out to backstab the party can never resist having a murder written in to it. The real problem is getting this feature before they do it.

[Seclora]

Rune Knight seems fun, gives you a tank for your crafter party. Generally strikes me as a strong subclass, but not a terribly broken one. I might tone down the Haug Rune a little, make it one type of damage or only rounds equal to your Int modifier?

I enjoy the Swarmkeeper. Just, Fairy Bees, everywhere. The Storm of Minions ought to deal more damage, maybe 2d8 more. It seems pretty clear to me that Wisdom should be a priority for the archetype, since most of its abilities key off of it and it gets some decent spells. I like the idea of a beekeeper or Disney Princess ranger with an ever-present mob of protective animals. It seems like the sort of thing that would appeal to the kind of person who likes the ranger and never visits an optimization forum anyways, so making it a fairly good archetype is probably good in order to keep them competitive with the rest of the party.

I had to get a second opinion on the Revived Rogue. Some of those features seemed a little bizarre. I don't like letting them change their character around every time they nearly die, seems very dangerous in the hands of players who like screwing with their party, and confusing to new players. Not eating and sleeping seems unnecessary, and I don't really get how it works for the character. My wife thought it was cool though, so I dunno. Connect with the dead is flavorful, but not reliable enough to be exploitable, which is perfect really. I agree that Audience with Death is very exploitable, but not inherently broken. I'd give it a line to the effect that for every question after the first 5, you failed a number of death saves equal to the total questions that day, minus five(6 questions meaning 1 save, 7 meaning 2, 7 meaning automatic death) for asking another. After all, if you wanted to talk to Death that badly, you might as well come inside and have some tea while you talk. Ethereal Jaunt is wordy, but fine.

Bolts from the Grave could be a bit strong, if you rule that a held attack doesn't count as an attack on your turn, but as a DM, that's blatantly exploitative and I wouldn't allow it. Holding an attack means you have a clear intention to make an attack, and Bolts from the Grave is clearly intended to let you attack while you're doing other things. My interpretation is that Bolts from the Grave only works if you make no attempt to use your Sneak Attack on your turn, and then happens at the end of your Bonus Action Dash, Disengage, or Hide. So a better way to put it would be 'at the end of your turn, if you have used the Bonus Action granted by Cunning Action, and have not used or held an attack action, then...Grave Bolt' Ensuring that you are never too busy to deal damage.

[Mikaleus]

I’m not much of a rogue player. Looks cool and I know a few of my gaming buddies will be salivating at this new rogue.

The swarmkeeper reminds me of the 4e Swarm Druid. That said, I do like the looks of this even as a ranger subclass. Glad to see the additional spells. Agree the high level ability could deal with a small buff in damage. Overall I’d play one.

Then I see the Rune Knight.

Context, in 5e I’ve mostly played Paladins, Druids and clerics.
In video games I always liked summoners of elementals, and mixing might and magic.
Naturally paladin and cleric fit this latter play style of hybrid magic and martial capability.
I saw eldritch knight and it didn’t do it for me.
But rune knight? Giant lore? Runes? Magic? Fighter subclass ?!?!?

This is the first fighter I’ve ever wanted to play in 5e

[Damon_Tor]

The Revived Rogue has a place for someone who wants to MC rogue for things like Expertise and Cunning Action while not intending to make weapon attacks ever. A warlock, for example, who wants the added mobility and skills from the rogue can get full use out of the sneak attack damage even if he's built as a spellcaster with no interest in martial stuff at all.

The Rune Knight seems like the go-to grappler build: advantage on athletics checks and the ability to become large, plus you can give yourself an additional +2 to strength. Be a VHuman and take the Prodigy feat for athletics expertise. Bam, best grappler in the game.

[Rukelnikov]

The Audience with Death doesn't actually seem that bad. "Unknown" is probably going to do some heavy lifting on the key details, because Death specifically has the knowledge of everyone who has died. "Is our employer going to cheat us?" Well, unless someone overheard those plans and then croaked, Death is just going to shrug at you. "Does the Bandit leader have an escape route?" Maybe you get an answer on that, which could inform your plans a bit. I think what we're all ignoring is the troll potential of this ability: ask yes/no details about your party members' pasts. How many adventurers still have parents alive and kicking, anyway?

Think on a grander scale, how many mythical creatures are dead? How many gods are dead? The repository of knowledge is amazing.

Querying that repository is what becomes tricky since they are y/n questions, but how many theories could be proven right or wrong in an instant?

"Is there a plane besides the ones I know?" As long as something ever lived in another plane and died you get confirmation of more planes of existance.

In regards to world building this feature has amazing implications. Commune and Contact Other Plane leave the possibility that the answer to a particular question is unknown, but anything known to someone who died will be known.

[Jerrykhor]

Is it just me, or does it feel like Revived Rogue is what Undying warlock totally should have been?

[Mongobear]

Am I the only one who now wants to do Runekeeper/Hexblade for a WoW Death Knight/Lich King substitute?

[Jerrykhor]

Am I the only one who now wants to do Runekeeper/Hexblade for a WoW Death Knight/Lich King substitute?

No ****, i feel like rolling a Mountain dwarf rune knight wielding a battle axe and a battle hammer in each hand, use Giant Might while yelling "FOR KHAZ MODAN!!"

[Mongobear]

No ****, i feel like rolling a Mountain dwarf rune knight wielding a battle axe and a battle hammer in each hand, use Giant Might while yelling "FOR KHAZ MODAN!!"

Yeah, that was another idea. Pure Fighter, or maybe combo RK with Barbarian for the Mountain King.

Also, unless I misread it, does Giant's Might make TWFing good? Iirc it applies to all weapon attacks, not just once a round.

[CheddarChampion]

Also, unless I misread it, does Giant's Might make TWFing good? Iirc it applies to all weapon attacks, not just once a round.

Yeah it's good, once activated as a bonus action. Which takes away the TWF for that round.
Three of the runes also take bonus actions to activate.

[8wGremlin]

Fighter: rune knight 3 with Uvar rune. The rest wizard.

Have two items with Uvar rune. And make enemies have disadvantage on saving throws for 2 encounters. Then long rest.

Potent.

[Mongobear]

Yeah it's good, once activated as a bonus action. Which takes away the TWF for that round.
Three of the runes also take bonus actions to activate.

Meh, options are useful. It's just a flat-out better version of a TWFing Barbarian. The first turn, you use to get close and transform, then you just murder everything afterwards. Maybe skip the BA Runes, or only take a few, use them as needed, and fall back to an offhand swing if the situation doesn't need your utility.

RK/Ranger, RK/Hexblade or even just Magic Initiate, get in place with Giants Might ready, trigger Hex/Hunters Mark, then unload as many attacks as possible + an offhand if needed.

Takes 3 turns to get full effects, but good greif, that's a lotta damage.

[The_Snark]

Fighter: rune knight 3 with Uvar rune. The rest wizard.

Have two items with Uvar rune. And make enemies have disadvantage on saving throws for 2 encounters. Then long rest.

Potent.

Can't double up on runes, you have to inscribe a different rune on each object and you only get [runes known] objects.

[Fnissalot]

Bolts from the grave technically says that sneak attack has not been used. You use sneak attack after the attack roll hits so if your attack has missed, you can use grave bolts. Secondly, readying an action requires you spend your reaction to deal the damage in the end, which means you won't use your reaction to use uncanny dodge or evasion. So readying an action is sort of wasting your strength in the action economy.



The Revived is...interesting. I think I like it. It does invalidate the dual-wielding Rogue, though.
DW: Attack; miss; bonus action attack for a 2nd shot at sneak attack.
Revived: Attack; miss; Cunning action disengage; move away; ranged spell attack for sneak attack damage with a usually-non-resisted element

Bolts from the Grave will be, at best, 1d6 (shortsword) less damage than a normal off-hand attack, while being lower risk and less resisted. I would tune it down to d4s, I think.

You would shoot before you could move, so the attack would be at disadvantage. Alternatively, you use the disengage before you move into combat, shoot and get your sneak attack and suddenly maybe should not use your action to go in to melee since it might be better to just use your action to dodge then.

Hiding is equally weird as the cunning action for this as you will break being hidden directly by shooting it but you might get advantage on the shot then atleast.

Dash would only be useful, when you have moved and have less than 30ft left to an enemy you are planning to engage, or if you are trying to move away from an enemy within 30ft.

Also, on a ranged rogue, you still would need to be within 30ft to use the grave bolts which is closer than you would like it to be.

Neither of these uses feels super practical or easy to use. In most situations, crossbow expert seems just a better way to do the same thing, and dual-wielding will likely still be better in melee.

[8wGremlin]

Can't double up on runes, you have to inscribe a different rune on each object and you only get [runes known] objects.

Thanks for clarification. But even with just one minute of disadvantage on saves is potent.

[Sparky McDibben]

Ok, so my one gripe with Revived is that they effectively have permanent water breathing. There are a couple ways I can see around this:

Option 1: Ceteris paribus, they still need to breathe, but can hold their breath twice as long, and halve their food and drink requirements.

Option 2: Ceteris paribus, they gain immunity to poison damage and the poison condition, but their subtype changes to undead.

Thoughts?

[Pex]

The "fluttering birds" line for the swarmkeeper ranger makes me want to play a Disney princess character who is constantly surrounded by singing bluebirds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Jni_jQNfg

"Immediately after" using Bolts from the Grave can be interpreted to mean it does not synergize with Disengage. When you Disengage you haven't moved yet; it just allows you to move without provoking an opportunity attack. You couldn't disengage, move, then use Bolts from the Grave. You would have to use Bolts from the Grave immediately after you disengaged, so you're making a range attack in melee - disadvantage - but you can still move after without provoking.

[AdAstra]

Love the themes of all the subclasses.

I feel like people are really underselling the Rune Knight's power. The Hill and Storm runes are both really strong abilities. You get a slightly weaker Rage with fewer caveats, and among other things, the ability to Heighten people's spells as a reaction for a minute. Two quite strong (and incredibly versatile in the latter's case) abilities per short rest, plus Giant Might (kinda like the offensive component of Rage plus Large size) twice per long rest. Then you get poison resistance and one of the benefits of Alert, as well as lesser items like advantage on Arcana and some minor proficiencies. At level 3. I think that surpasses any of the current Fighter subclasses by a fairly large margin. And it's not like it tapers off either. At 7 you get an at-will reaction boost to AC based on intelligence (though interestingly it does not have text like Shield to indicate you would be able to know the roll first), which I would put as equal to or better than the Light Cleric's Improved Flare. The 10th level ability is not much, since it's mostly a small improvement to Giant Might and a 4th rune, but 15 and 18 both pretty much double the effectiveness of each of your core abilities.

Swarmkeeper is really fun-sounding, but honestly feels a little limited. Faerie Fire on a Ranger could be pretty potent when combined with the Gathered Swarm and Sharpshooter. Scuttling Eyes seems fun, though I don't see it as being worth a 3rd level spell slot in most cases. They probably could've lowered that cost and been fine.

Rogue's a weird case because it's one of the only instances where you can deal damage as a bonus action without any restrictions on what your action can be (ie spells or TWF).

New mechanics are always good. Things that operate off death saves, swappable skills, object-based powers, I like to see it.

[Sindal]

The swarmkeeper strikes me as people who want to be beastmasters but instead of having 'a thing', the animal are 'a force' instead.
It's a neat idea, at least

[Finback]

(and that hummingbird on your shoulder becomes a skeksis-like skeletal magpie which squawks "i feast on the souls of the weak!"



seed for the seed god
bells for the bell perch

[Finback]

I really WANT to like the swarmkeeper more, but it still feels a little off to me. Why fey? Why not an actual swarm? I guess, yes, an actual swarm of ants won't make you fly, but therein probably lies my disillusion with it. I want there to be something more like a swarm druid, someone who uses swarms as their summons/familiars, with appropriate features. Using them as your eyes and ears is totally in line with that, but it just feels like a concept in need of some stronger mechanics.

and all it does is remind I wish I had the time or better skill at designing my idea for a prestige class, the Arachnomancer - a druid build for drow.

[Makorel]

Really liking Rune Knight, which is kinda strange. With the heavy use of Intelligence and the pseudo crafting aspects in some ways it feels like they're stepping on the imminent Artificer's turf, and yet I can't be mad at it. Seeing the new Artificer UA made me fall in love with the idea of being so good at a craft that it actually becomes magic. Why would you need to cast spells for this sort of magic?

I also like that Intelligence becomes a useful, but not necessary secondary stat; the only other class that does this well is the Paladin. I like that this Fighter uses their Intelligence to gain combat advantages. I like that it remixes the "everyman" theme of the fighter in an interesting way. I like that it provides bonuses to skills and other out of combat benefits. It's also got genuine tanking capabilities with its 7th level feature and some of its rune abilities which have been few and far between for 5e "tanks" so far. WotC also learned from their past classes by giving this one more features in addition to simply upgrading old ones, and the upgrading features are also upgraded in more ways like number of uses and appropriate damage increases depending on level.

I give it a 10/10, it addresses like every complaint I've seen about martials except some may still decry it for dipping a foot into the magic pool to fix those issues. Now here's hoping WotC will use what they learned and go back to patch certain other Fighter subclasses to fix the same issues this subclass avoids.

[Dark.Revenant]

The following changes I would make to Rune Knight:


Giant Might damage boost is decreased to 1d4 instead of 1d6. It still increases to 1d8 with Great Stature. Rationale: DPR was too high, and this brings it in line with the 2nd-level spell it's replicating.
Haug's active effect is changed to be your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Rationale: Adds a restriction to an otherwise amazing ability, and adds tactical depth to both the player and the DM. The player must weigh the consequences of each damage type, and monster tactics might shift as a result.
Uvar's active effect can no longer affect hostile creatures' saving throws. Rationale: Lore Bard can't impose penalties to hostile creatures' saving throws either, despite being able to affect most other rolls. There's a reason for that.


For all you people who are mentioning PAM and dual wielding: Rune Knight is very bonus action heavy. Personally, I think this makes for a great sword-and-board, sword-and-grab. Or even archer. Yeah, you can't really make use of the Ise rune, but you've got others to choose from, and you get a bunch of ways to use bonus actions while shooting arrows.

Keep in mind, by the way, that you can double up on a rune's effects at 15th level by activating it twice. The main use for this is activating Ise twice for a whopping 24 Strength. Granted, to fully buff yourself up that way, you need *three* bonus actions if you’re also trying to add that 1d8 per hit. Again, PAM is maybe not the best option.

The part I like the most is the fact that you’re encouraged to have a variety of weapons. A couple runes specifically require a weapon attack, but I’d like rune invocations to generally require you to wield the item it’s inscribed upon. I think this would temper some of the class’ scaling, especially at high levels, and generally be more interesting to play.

[AdAstra]

I think Giant Might should either be made into a rune power or given at another level. In addition to being rather powerful it's a little weird for the subclass to have two entirely separate resource pools at level 3.

[Kuu Lightwing]

My problem with the rogue (aside for why is this a subclass) is that coming back from the dead doesn't seem to be all that unique in 5e. Revivify is 3rd level spell, and Raise Dead is 5th level. None of them grant zombification or magical retcon powers that this subclass seem to grant.

So, it looks like a good idea, but not for DnD strangely enough. Or for some specific DnD setting where resurrection is generally not a thing outside some forbidden magic and ancient artifacts.

[AdAstra]

My problem with the rogue (aside for why is this a subclass) is that coming back from the dead doesn't seem to be all that unique in 5e. Revivify is 3rd level spell, and Raise Dead is 5th level. None of them grant zombification or magical retcon powers that this subclass seem to grant.

So, it looks like a good idea, but not for DnD strangely enough. Or for some specific DnD setting where resurrection is generally not a thing outside some forbidden magic and ancient artifacts.

I would assume the part that's special is that you spontaneously came back, and you have no memory of what happened before that. A perfectly viable theme would be some sort of reincarnation (not the spell).

[Kuu Lightwing]

I would assume the part that's special is that you spontaneously came back, and you have no memory of what happened before that. A perfectly viable theme would be some sort of reincarnation (not the spell).

I mean I guess that makes some sense, but still I don't feel it like a rogue subclass. They even call out "perhaps you signed a deal with a fiend" - gee, where I heard that before :P

This fluff is basically Revenant, which is a "race" or rather template or something, is it not?

[Fnissalot]

I would assume the part that's special is that you spontaneously came back, and you have no memory of what happened before that. A perfectly viable theme would be some sort of reincarnation (not the spell).

I agree, I think it is more in line with Cloud Atlas how those characters are mirrored over time, and a Revived Rogue is aware to some extent of this temporal repetition. It is not just that they have been revivified a bunch of times. Other examples could be that Link in the zelda games has lived before to some extent, Tidus in FFX would be another functional example, the player character in Pillars of Eternity, hawkman and hawkgirl in DC, or for example Agrojag in the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

[Kane0]

and all it does is remind I wish I had the time or better skill at designing my idea for a prestige class, the Arachnomancer - a druid build for drow.

You can check out the 3.5 Verminlord PrC for ideas, if you start up a thread in homebrew i’d be happy to help hash out a druid subclass for this.
Assuming one doesnt already exist of course.

[Benny89]

I would definitely don't touch Rune Knight. It's good as it is and it's the first subclass that is really on pair with Battle Master and more intuitive and resource-friendly (while not as effect-strong) and straight foward than EK.

It's one of those few UAs subclasses that imo really comes out nicely balanced. A lot of fun, a lot of utility to play with and still requires some off-stat investment (INT in this case).

[AdAstra]

I would definitely don't touch Rune Knight. It's good as it is and it's the first subclass that is really on pair with Battle Master and more intuitive and resource-friendly (while not as effect-strong) and straight foward than EK.

It's one of those few UAs subclasses that imo really comes out nicely balanced. A lot of fun, a lot of utility to play with and still requires some off-stat investment (INT in this case).

Really? I would consider the Rune Knight's effects to be significantly stronger than an EK's spells. Even Shield doesn't compete with physical damage resistance for 1 minute. Giant Might is basically a slightly more powerful, more limited version of Enlarge/Reduce, which takes concentration and is a 2nd level spell, which EK can't get until level 8 (since it's transmutation), and it has the same number of uses as an EK has spell slots at lvl 3. I would consider either of the Rune Knight's limited-use powers stronger than an EK's, at least until 7 when they get a decent number of spell slots. That doesn't even count the utility you get from the rune weapons. If your DM allows you to really abuse Find Familiar then maybe EK could compete, but otherwise it's no contest. I would also say it's mostly going to be better than battlemaster depending on build.

[Comaward]

Love the Rune Knight and Swarmkeeper. Dislike the Rogue.

I don’t think the Rune Knight should be a Barbarian. I think it should stay as a Fighter.
It harkens back to a time when the giants were a dominant civilization, rather than the divided, “barbaric” remnants they are now.

In my games, I will be streamlining some of the features to better fit my version of giants.
I’ll also be removing the Haug Rune’s resist bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing benefit. That steps on the barbarian’s toes too much.


Xanathar’s Guide Favorites

- Storm Herald Barbarian (shame they nerfed it from UA)
- Whisper Bard
- Forge Cleric
- Grave Cleric
- Conquest Paladin
- Sun Soul Monk
- Divine Soul Sorcerer
- Hexblade Warlock


This round of UA

- Aberrant Sorcerer
- Wildfire Druid
- Rune Knight Fighter
- Swarmkeeper Ranger

[jaappleton]

Loving the idea of a Rune Knight / Bladesinger.

Absolutely loving it.

Love it far more than EK / Bladesinger.

[Benny89]

Really? I would consider the Rune Knight's effects to be significantly stronger than an EK's spells. Even Shield doesn't compete with physical damage resistance for 1 minute. Giant Might is basically a slightly more powerful, more limited version of Enlarge/Reduce, which takes concentration and is a 2nd level spell, which EK can't get until level 8 (since it's transmutation), and it has the same number of uses as an EK has spell slots at lvl 3. I would consider either of the Rune Knight's limited-use powers stronger than an EK's, at least until 7 when they get a decent number of spell slots. That doesn't even count the utility you get from the rune weapons. If your DM allows you to really abuse Find Familiar then maybe EK could compete, but otherwise it's no contest. I would also say it's mostly going to be better than battlemaster depending on build.

Well build EK with Shadow Blade and Blur/Mirrors Image decimates enemies. Plus you multiclass to Wizard after first or second extra attack to great benefit of getting more slots etc. Plus they get Haste.

Rune Knight is without any slots so he doesn't multiclass well with casters and his Runes are more utility but not as strong effect wise like for example Shadow Blade or Mage Armor in hands of EK.

EK is more resource hungry but more effective in encounter when he needs to and Rune Knight is less resource heavy and more of all-around-adventure-day good.

If I were compare those two - it's Paladin vs Hexblade. Paladin can deal more massive damage in single combat and have more game-changing spells like Auras while Hexblade is more great in every encounter without huge spikes like Paladin.

So Rune Knight imo fits perfectly between mundane Battlemaster and arcane EK.

Imo Rune Knight is fine as it is and I really would love to play one.

[Emongnome777]

Last 2 sentences of Bolts from the Grave say, “ A creature hit by this attack takes necrotic damage equal to your Sneak Attack. This uses your Sneak Attack for the turn.”

Does this mean the SA is used up when you make the attack or only on a hit? I believe the last sentence is referring to the attack in general, not necessarily just a hit (the prior sentence). Thoughts?

[VonKaiserstein]

Elminster's password is in fact several passwords, which vary with the phases of the moon.

No, not our moon, another stars, which he never named, and only knew by it's position. So one must scry upon that star's moon and inquire of the dead the password during that cycle.

Gathering information from the dead without this foreknowledge results in a garbled amalgamation of all his passwords.

[Sigreid]

Elminster's password is in fact several passwords, which vary with the phases of the moon.

No, not our moon, another stars, which he never named, and only knew by it's position. So one must scry upon that star's moon and inquire of the dead the password during that cycle.

Gathering information from the dead without this foreknowledge results in a garbled amalgamation of all his passwords.

You can't get the password from this ability unless it's yes, no or unknown. Basically you get a nod, a head shake or a shrug.

[stoutstien]

Last 2 sentences of Bolts from the Grave say, “ A creature hit by this attack takes necrotic damage equal to your Sneak Attack. This uses your Sneak Attack for the turn.”

Does this mean the SA is used up when you make the attack or only on a hit? I believe the last sentence is referring to the attack in general, not necessarily just a hit (the prior sentence). Thoughts?

Good question. I can see it both ways but I would lean towards that it misses you still have your sneak attack available if you would have used cunning action before your action.
it has a limitation that you can only use it if you haven't used it yet but nothing in the text suggests that it all or nothing.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing like a scaling version. You can dedicate some of your sneak attack dice to it so you can spread out the damage or against harder to hit targets have a better chance of getting some of the damage to it.

[Daphne]

I feel like people are really underselling the Rune Knight's power. The Hill and Storm runes are both really strong abilities. You get a slightly weaker Rage with fewer caveats, and among other things, the ability to Heighten people's spells as a reaction for a minute. Two quite strong (and incredibly versatile in the latter's case) abilities per short rest, plus Giant Might (kinda like the offensive component of Rage plus Large size) twice per long rest. Then you get poison resistance and one of the benefits of Alert, as well as lesser items like advantage on Arcana and some minor proficiencies. At level 3. I think that surpasses any of the current Fighter subclasses by a fairly large margin. And it's not like it tapers off either. At 7 you get an at-will reaction boost to AC based on intelligence (though interestingly it does not have text like Shield to indicate you would be able to know the roll first), which I would put as equal to or better than the Light Cleric's Improved Flare. The 10th level ability is not much, since it's mostly a small improvement to Giant Might and a 4th rune, but 15 and 18 both pretty much double the effectiveness of each of your core abilities.

Agreed, the subclass is bloated. There's two different concepts competing for space: rune fighter and giant fighter (and this one I think would work better as a barbarian). Their damage scales better than the battle master's by a substantial amount while getting actual features on top at later levels, unlike battle master who only progresses is martial die.

[Mongobear]

One thing the Rune Knight has done is re-inspire my attempt at a Rune subsystem for Homebrew classes, including a standalone Death Knight class, inspired by WoW and the Lich King

[Degwerks]

I'm tempted to multiclass the Rune Knight with Battlesmith Artificer. Stock up on my Intelligence & Con.

[Amechra]

After sleeping on it, I've figured out what else I want from the Swarmkeeper - I wish that there were some defensive benefits to having a swarm around you. Maybe an AC bump or something to represent arrows getting blocked and the like.

[Protolisk]

You can't get the password from this ability unless it's yes, no or unknown. Basically you get a nod, a head shake or a shrug.

"Does the password have a Q?"

Nod.

"Is the first letter a Q?

Shake

Is the second letter Q?

Nod

And so forth. With (near infinite) questions, you can play the ultimate game of Wheel of Fortune, guessing letters and positions.

But if the password involves non-letter parts, it's gonna get really abstract.

[Sigreid]

"Does the password have a Q?"

Nod.

"Is the first letter a Q?

Shake

Is the second letter Q?

Nod

And so forth. With (near infinite) questions, you can play the ultimate game of Wheel of Fortune, guessing letters and positions.

But if the password involves non-letter parts, it's gonna get really abstract.

True enough, assuming you can hit all of the obscure languages and characters that someone like Elminster likely knows. Not all of which are necessarily from this world.

[jaappleton]

True enough, assuming you can hit all of the obscure languages and characters that someone like Elminster likely knows. Not all of which are necessarily from this world.

Oh, everyone needs to stop with this nonsense.

Everyone knows Elminster's password is RaistlinSucks1

[stoutstien]

True enough, assuming you can hit all of the obscure languages and characters that someone like Elminster likely knows. Not all of which are necessarily from this world.
It's actually a obscure interpretive dance ritual.

* Rubs head and Pats belly.

[Crgaston]

The Swarmkeeper will let you build a very credible representation of the protagonist from the web serial Worm. Which is fantastic.

The Rune Knight is interesting. The Stone rune would be handy for an Rune Knight/Inquisitive build. And of course the Storm Rune is amazing. It's like all of a sudden you're a Lore Bard with 30 Cha and more versatility. Or like you get the 9th level spell Foresight for a minute at the cost of your reaction. And you can share the effect, too.


Edit:


After sleeping on it, I've figured out what else I want from the Swarmkeeper - I wish that there were some defensive benefits to having a swarm around you. Maybe an AC bump or something to represent arrows getting blocked and the like.

Yes! Mage armor equivalent, or first attack against you (...by a new enemy? ...per combat? ...per round?) has disadvantage

[Degwerks]

Oh, everyone needs to stop with this nonsense.

Everyone knows Elminster's password is RaistlinSucks1

But a Fistandantilus is worth two in the bush

[jaappleton]

But a Fistandantilus is worth two in the bush

Actually, lets be real...

His password is absolutely GreenwoodRules

That's precisely what his password is, and you're wrong if you think otherwise.

[Wildarm]

I'm tempted to multiclass the Rune Knight with Battlesmith Artificer. Stock up on my Intelligence & Con.

That was my thinking as well. Rune Knight 3/Battlesmith X though it delays ASIs and extra attack for a painfully long time. Perhaps using a High elf /w Toll the Dead(+Ular Rune) or Booming Blade would ease the pain. Probably lean more towards the save cantrip as booming blade becomes less desirable as soon as you get extra attack.

Giant Might + Arcane Weapon + Repeating Heavy Crossbow+Sharpshooter+Ular Rune is pretty solid:
2 attacks per round with 1d10+1d6+1d6(acid)+1(Magic)+10(SS)+3(Int) damage = 26.5 Avg
Use your reaction to gain advantage on the first attack.

[jaappleton]

That was my thinking as well. Rune Knight 3/Battlesmith X though it delays ASIs and extra attack for a painfully long time. Perhaps using a High elf /w Toll the Dead(+Ular Rune) or Booming Blade would ease the pain. Probably lean more towards the save cantrip as booming blade becomes less desirable as soon as you get extra attack.

Giant Might + Arcane Weapon + Repeating Heavy Crossbow+Sharpshooter+Ular Rune is pretty solid:
2 attacks per round with 1d10+1d6+1d6(acid)+1(Magic)+10(SS)+3(Int) damage = 26.5 Avg
Use your reaction to gain advantage on the first attack.

Go Warforged for the race, because their Heavy Armor has no strength requirement.

[Sparky McDibben]

Go Warforged for the race, because their Heavy Armor has no strength requirement.

Actually, could you even apply a third rune to a Warforged? They don't wear armor - their armor is integrated, which means there's nothing to apply the rune on.

[jaappleton]

Actually, could you even apply a third rune to a Warforged? They don't wear armor - their armor is integrated, which means there's nothing to apply the rune on.

Their docent?

[Mongobear]

Actually, could you even apply a third rune to a Warforged? They don't wear armor - their armor is integrated, which means there's nothing to apply the rune on.

While technically not wearing armor, both the medium and heavy variants are considered Armor for class features that don't work when Armored. So, I would say yes to those specifically. Ymmv, tho.

[Wildarm]

Go Warforged for the race, because their Heavy Armor has no strength requirement.

Seems like I'm always leaning towards Warforged for my race choice. So generically good. You can easily make a dex based ranged Warforged Envoy Rune Knight. Ild and Ular rune mesh really nicely with a sharpshooter archer while still leaving your reaction free for Defensive Runes.

I've been trying to think of synergy with the passive runes.

Haug - Resistant to Poison
Ild - Expertise with tools
Ise - Advantage on Animal Handling and Intimidation
Skye - Advantage on Slight of Hand and Deception
Stein - Advantage on Insight + Darkvision
Uvar - Advantage on Arcana + Psuedo-Alert

Some ideas:

- Advantage + Expertise to steal or lie is nice with only a single level dip in Rogue
- Advantage + Expertise in Arcana is nice for a single dip into Knowledge Cleric
- Ghostwise Halfling Rogue 1 Gives Expertise + Advantage on Insight could discern lies easily and then telepathically inform everyone else. Fixes halfling lack of darkvision too.
- Expertise in all tools you have proficiency with - Niche uses - Poisoner build, poor man's Rogue, ?
- Can't think of a real boon for Ise rune. Animal taming Druid/Ranger/Nature Cleric? Bard with a travelling animal circus?

Trying to theorycraft a melee build with some synergy. So far most of my ideas end up being about the same as using a Samurai. Basically easy ways to generate advantage. GWM is OK but Rune Knight is pretty bonus action heavy so you may end up losing out on your bonus action GWM strike.

One idea can come up with is a Half-Orc with a Greataxe. Use Skye rune to try and incapacitate someone before your turn. Giant Might and then rush in to auto-crit for 3d12 + 2d6 + Str damage. Only works for one attack though as the guy wakes up. Not super strong but usable 1/SR.

Reverse crit fishing with a Reckless Barbarian dip is another interesting option with the Skye rune. Go reckless and hope enemies roll a crit against you - Redirect that crit to an ally of theirs. Any other ways to force a crit on yourself while still keeping your reaction?

[Scarytincan]

Really want to love the rune knight and ALMOST do, but the power creep... Mostly take issue with accessing large size when they've tried so hard to avoid that kind of thing. And a little iffy about the 1d6 to dmg thing... Otherwise really love it tho.

Swarm... Hilarious and dumb. If it were druid I'd totally be on board. Gimme that swarm of squirrels. But ranger? So weird.

And the rogue just ugh. Power creep. Level dip creep. And having died before /has past lives is a subclass of something? Huh? Especially rogue rather than warlock pact? No thanks. Love all the effort on new subclasses and lots of releases. Some are fantastic. Others are doozies. Say no to power creep!

[Rukelnikov]

Really want to love the rune knight and ALMOST do, but the power creep... Mostly take issue with accessing large size when they've tried so hard to avoid that kind of thing. And a little iffy about the 1d6 to dmg thing... Otherwise really love it tho.

Swarm... Hilarious and dumb. If it were druid I'd totally be on board. Gimme that swarm of squirrels. But ranger? So weird.

And the rogue just ugh. Power creep. Level dip creep. And having died before /has past lives is a subclass of something? Huh? Especially rogue rather than warlock pact? No thanks. Love all the effort on new subclasses and lots of releases. Some are fantastic. Others are doozies. Say no to power creep!

You really think Rune Knight is power creep? I would definitely accept power dip, but in the long run, like in tier 3, I don't see it being above an EK tbh

[Wildarm]

And the rogue just ugh. Power creep. Level dip creep. And having died before /has past lives is a subclass of something? Huh? Especially rogue rather than warlock pact? No thanks. Love all the effort on new subclasses and lots of releases. Some are fantastic. Others are doozies. Say no to power creep!

I've been trying to re-work the revived subclass into a Warlock class. Ethereal Jaunt can just be cast misty step at will. Need to replace Bolts of the Grave with something else though. On a warlock, perhaps it gives the Agonizing Blast Invocation for free but changes the damage type of your EB to Necrotic damage. I think that would be reasonably balanced. Free up an invocation essentially at level 3 with a small tradeoff in damage type.

[Daphne]

You really think Rune Knight is power creep? I would definitely accept power dip, but in the long run, like in tier 3, I don't see it being above an EK tbh

At 3rd level the Rune Knight has:

One tool and one language proficiency.
Advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks.
Immunity to surprise.
Advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and resistance against poison damage.
Resistance to all physical damage for a minute once per short rest.
Ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws and attack rolls as a reaction for a whole minute once per short rest.
Advantage on all strength checks and +1d6 damage for a minute twice per long rest.


If this isn't power creep, I don't what it is. It's way stronger than any other Fighter subclass

[Rukelnikov]

At 3rd level the Rune Knight has:

One tool and one language proficiency.
Advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks.
Immunity to surprise.
Advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and resistance against poison damage.
Resistance to all physical damage for a minute once per short rest.
Ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws and attack rolls as a reaction for a whole minute once per short rest.
Advantage on all strength checks and +1d6 damage for a minute twice per long rest.


If this isn't power creep, I don't what it is. It's way stronger than any other Fighter subclass

It doesn't have all those things, you get 2 runes at lvl 3 not all of them.

Still its very powerful at lvl 3 that's why I said power dip, but compare it at lvl 7 vs an EK, who by that poin is making a GFB attack and a regular attack every turn without spending any resource, and has shield and AE, or at 13th when EK is upcasting Shadow Blade to be a 3d8 damage one handed weapon that grants advantage when in dim light or darkness, I don't think the power creep is there tbh.

[strangebloke]

At 3rd level the Rune Knight has:

One tool and one language proficiency.
Advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks.
Immunity to surprise.
Advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and resistance against poison damage.
Resistance to all physical damage for a minute once per short rest.
Ability to impose disadvantage on saving throws and attack rolls as a reaction for a whole minute once per short rest.
Advantage on all strength checks and +1d6 damage for a minute twice per long rest.


If this isn't power creep, I don't what it is. It's way stronger than any other Fighter subclass

It's stronger than the EK at level 3, for sure. There's a strong argument that its overpowered at that level.

But longterm? The EK with a shadow blade has advantage on all attacks, deals 2d8 damage with the weapon, and can boost AC to 26. In reality the Rune Knight isn't getting all of the above bonuses.

I see it as stronger in standard play, and stronger at lower level, but weaker at high levels.

[AdAstra]

Well build EK with Shadow Blade and Blur/Mirrors Image decimates enemies. Plus you multiclass to Wizard after first or second extra attack to great benefit of getting more slots etc. Plus they get Haste.

Rune Knight is without any slots so he doesn't multiclass well with casters and his Runes are more utility but not as strong effect wise like for example Shadow Blade or Mage Armor in hands of EK.

EK is more resource hungry but more effective in encounter when he needs to and Rune Knight is less resource heavy and more of all-around-adventure-day good.

If I were compare those two - it's Paladin vs Hexblade. Paladin can deal more massive damage in single combat and have more game-changing spells like Auras while Hexblade is more great in every encounter without huge spikes like Paladin.

So Rune Knight imo fits perfectly between mundane Battlemaster and arcane EK.

Imo Rune Knight is fine as it is and I really would love to play one.

You can’t get shadow blade or mirror image until level 8, and you can’t have both until level 12. Blur takes concentration and thus is incompatible with shadow blade. Both blur and mirror image take an action to cast, giving up valuable attacks.

All the way back at level 3 Giant Might is giving you 1d6, which is nearly as much as the 1d8 shadow blade gives you over a longsword, while being compatible with all weapons, including ranged, and not being concentration. Both have situational benefits, but shadow blade isn’t enough better than Giant Might to compensate for all the other things Rune Knight gets, unless you’re constantly fighting in dim light and darkness.

I have no idea why you would consider Mage Armor to be useful on an Eldritch Knight. It gives you +1 AC over studded leather for a 1st level slot, and you might need to cast it twice if you have encounters spaced far enough apart. That’s nothing. All the classes that gain any meaningful benefit from MA can use it themselves, so in most cases it’s not a useful support spell either.

As for wizard multiclasses, the Rune Knight can gain just as much if not more, since they already use Int. If you go 5/5, the eldritch knight gains one 3rd level spell slot, or another 4th level slot (but no 4th level spells) if they get 6 fighter levels. The Rune Knight, on the other hand, can get almost all of the EK’s tricks at this point, including shield, shadow blade, and mirror image from wizard 3, which stack with Giant Might and the Hill Rune.

The fact that your EK builds aren’t even the best that an EK can do doesn’t help. If you multiclass out of EK before 7, it’s one of the worst subclasses for everything but the wizard, and then only because the other subclasses contribute very little to wizards at all, except, ironically, Rune Knight, which gives it a lot. If you’re looking for melee damage, a rogue multiclass, either arcane trickster or swashbuckler, probably gets you more than haste in practice.

Basically, Rune Knight 5/ Abjurer 3 is a better Eldritch Knight than an Eldritch Knight 8.

[Rukelnikov]

You can’t get shadow blade or mirror image until level 8, and you can’t have both until level 12. Blur takes concentration and thus is incompatible with shadow blade. Both blur and mirror image take an action to cast, giving up valuable attacks.

All the way back at level 3 Giant Might is giving you 1d6, which is nearly as much as the 1d8 shadow blade gives you over a longsword, while being compatible with all weapons, including ranged, and not being concentration. Both have situational benefits, but shadow blade isn’t enough better than Giant Might to compensate for all the other things Rune Knight gets, unless you’re constantly fighting in dim light and darkness.

I have no idea why you would consider Mage Armor to be useful on an Eldritch Knight. It gives you +1 AC over studded leather for a 1st level slot, and you might need to cast it twice if you have encounters spaced far enough apart. That’s nothing. All the classes that gain any meaningful benefit from MA can use it themselves, so in most cases it’s not a useful support spell either.

As for wizard multiclasses, the Rune Knight can gain just as much if not more, since they already use Int. If you go 5/5, the eldritch knight gains one 3rd level spell slot, or another 4th level slot (but no 4th level spells) if they get 6 fighter levels. The Rune Knight, on the other hand, can get almost all of the EK’s tricks at this point, including shield, shadow blade, and mirror image from wizard 3, which stack with Giant Might and the Hill Rune.

The fact that your EK builds aren’t even the best that an EK can do doesn’t help. If you multiclass out of EK before 7, it’s one of the worst subclasses for everything but the wizard, and then only because the other subclasses contribute very little to wizards at all, except, ironically, Rune Knight, which gives it a lot. If you’re looking for melee damage, a rogue multiclass, either arcane trickster or swashbuckler, probably gets you more than haste in practice.

Why stop at 7? EK11/Wiz9, without thinking it too much, has 5th and 6th lvl slots which you can use to get 4d8 one handed weapon and do 3 attacks per action with it.

[Daphne]

It doesn't have all those things, you get 2 runes at lvl 3 not all of them.

Yes, you have:
Bonus Proficiencies = one tool and one language proficiency.
Rune 1: Uvar (Storm Rune) = advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and you can't be surprised as long as you are not incapacitated. Invoke to impose disadvantage on saving throws and attack rolls as a reaction for a whole minute once per short rest.
Rune 2: Haug (Hill Rune) = Advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and resistance against poison damage. Resistance to all physical damage for a minute once per short rest.
Giant Might = Advantage on all strength checks and +1d6 damage for a minute twice per long rest.



The EK with a shadow blade has advantage on all attacks, deals 2d8 damage with the weapon
Two or three times a day, I grant you the advantage but 2d8 is still lower than 3d6 if the giant Rune Knight is using a greatsword.


and can boost AC to 26.
I'll argue the Rune Knight is even bulkier, you get resistance to all physical damage around twice or three times a day, and the storm rune can be used to grant disadvante on an attack roll every round. Defensive Runes can protect allies and can be used an unlimited number of times. Shield is +5 AC for 4 rounds max.

[Ravinsild]

Yes, you have:
Bonus Proficiencies = one tool and one language proficiency.
Rune 1: Uvar (Storm Rune) = advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and you can't be surprised as long as you are not incapacitated. Invoke to impose disadvantage on saving throws and attack rolls as a reaction for a whole minute once per short rest.
Rune 2: Haug (Hill Rune) = Advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and resistance against poison damage. Resistance to all physical damage for a minute once per short rest.
Giant Might = Advantage on all strength checks and +1d6 damage for a minute twice per long rest.



Two or three times a day, I grant you the advantage but 2d8 is still lower than 3d6 if the giant Rune Knight is using a greatsword.


I'll argue the Rune Knight is even bulkier, you get resistance to all physical damage around twice or three times a day, and the storm rune can be used to grant disadvante on an attack roll every round. Defensive Runes can protect allies and can be used an unlimited number of times. Shield is +5 AC for 4 rounds max.

I gotta agree with you here. The Rune Knight just feels gross. It's so blatantly powerful.

[AdAstra]

Why stop at 7? EK11/Wiz9, without thinking it too much, has 5th and 6th lvl slots which you can use to get 4d8 one handed weapon and do 3 attacks per action with it.

I tend to think about lower level building before I think about higher level, since a level 20 build will only see play for a tiny portion of the game, if at all. Anything beyond level 10 is usually wishful thinking. But no matter, it changes little. A Rune Knight 7/ Abjurer 13 would be a better caster and not much worse at fighting, with better support skills, and perhaps most important, concentration-free buffs (as well as the fire rune’s solid debuff). People are just ignoring this despite how strong it is. You can stack these with spells (like shadow blade), and you can’t lose them to errant attacks or spells.

A RK 15/ Divine Soul 5 would also do some work, with a little metamagic, two rune uses per short rest, five runes (so ten total “rune slots”), a buffed Giant Might, shield, mirror image, shadow blade (with up to 3d8), spirit guardians (if you have the Cha), and haste. Abjurer also works well for this one.

Also noted again: Giant Might can be used with shadow blade, or sharpshooter, or GWM, or even a monk’s flurry of blows if you decided to do that.

[Felyndiira]

Why stop at 7? EK11/Wiz9, without thinking it too much, has 5th and 6th lvl slots which you can use to get 4d8 one handed weapon and do 3 attacks per action with it.

That's a level 20 build. If we go that far, then a Rune Knight 11/Wizard 9 also gets level 5 slots, which gives shadow blade 4d8 damage. This is on top of another 1d8 from giant form and potentially the +STR rune. EK doesn't really add that much being multiclassed to wizard, unfortunately.

Alternatively, a Rune Knight 20 can use PAM, GWM, and a magic weapon alongside the Rune/Giant buffs to get even more damage. Shadow Blade's biggest weakness is that it plays poorly with magic weapons.

[Rukelnikov]

I tend to think about lower level building before I think about higher level, since a level 20 build will only see play for a tiny portion of the game, if at all. Anything beyond level 10 is usually wishful thinking. But no matter, it changes little. A Rune Knight 7/ Abjurer 13 would be a better caster and not much worse at fighting, with better support skills, and perhaps most important, concentration-free buffs. People are just ignoring this despite how strong it is. You can stack these with spells (like shadow blade), and you can’t lose them to errant attacks or spells.

Thats definitely a better caster, mainly because it has more wizard levels than fighter, so the weight of the subclass is less important. But its also a different type of character, it only does 2 attacks per turn, and will be played more as a support/control caster than as frontliner dpr. Damage wise, Rune Knight is not above EK, defensive wise, throught the day, Rune knight may be a bit above, but not that much tbh.

[AdAstra]

Thats definitely a better caster, mainly because it has more wizard levels than fighter, so the weight of the subclass is less important. But its also a different type of character, it only does 2 attacks per turn, and will be played more as a support/control caster than as frontliner dpr. Damage wise, Rune Knight is not above EK, defensive wise, throught the day, Rune knight may be a bit above, but not that much tbh.

Note the RK 15/ Sorc or Wiz 5 build. Get GWM. Activate either Giant Might or Storm/Hill Rune, or quicken Haste, or cast shadow blade. Action Surge, as soon as you hit, use Fire Rune (if using storm rune impose disadvantage). Use fire rune again on next hit if the first fails. Rely on GWM/SS damage and Giant Might if you have it.

For that matter, Rune Knight 20 is plenty strong.

[Rukelnikov]

That's a level 20 build. If we go that far, then a Rune Knight 11/Wizard 9 also gets level 5 slots, which gives shadow blade 4d8 damage. This is on top of another 1d8 from giant form and potentially the +STR rune. EK doesn't really add that much being multiclassed to wizard, unfortunately.

Only once a day vs the EK that can do it 3 times. Also it takes 2 turn to do those things for a RK, since both SB and Giant Might are BA.


Alternatively, a Rune Knight 20 can use PAM, GWM, and a magic weapon alongside the Rune/Giant buffs to get even more damage. Shadow Blade's biggest weakness is that it plays poorly with magic weapons.

Do the same with an EK, don't use SB, and instead use Haste or Greater Invisibility, the DPR increase of advantage to every attack is above 1d8 damage to every attack against most ACs, and an extra attack is likely to yield more damage than 1d8 to every attack under those terms (GWM + Magic weaponry)

[Rukelnikov]

Note the RK 15/ Sorc or Wiz 5 build. Get GWM. Activate either Giant Might or Storm/Hill Rune, or quicken Haste, or cast shadow blade. Action Surge, as soon as you hit, use Fire Rune (if using storm rune impose disadvantage). Use fire rune again on next hit if the first fails. Rely on GWM/SS damage and Giant Might if you have it.

For that matter, Rune Knight 20 is plenty strong.

Im not saying is not strong, I think it's as strong as it should be (or at least not on a tier above EK), albeit front loaded.

[AdAstra]

Im not saying is not strong, I think it's as strong as it should be (or at least not on a tier above EK), albeit front loaded.

Lower-level (especially in tier 2 of play) balance tends to be more important than higher level balance. Also yeah, RK isn’t Lore Wizard broken, but even when compared to the front-loaded subclasses, like battlemaster, it’s notably stronger.

[GlenSmash!]

Looking at the Rune Knight I'm starting to see a split in the features. The runes on items and then the Giant's might (Great Stature, Blessing of the all-Father)

The latter all seem to fit better to me as modifiers for Rage. Like on a Runescarred Berserker primal path for the Barbarian.

[Luccan]

I don't think the Giant stuff should necessarily be a Barbarian subclass over fighter, but it should probably be its own thing separate from Rune stuff. Their limited connection is that Stone Giants do runic magic. That's it. There's nothing about runes inherently that requires a character be a giant.

[Daphne]

Looking at the Rune Knight I'm starting to see a split in the features. The runes on items and then the Giant's might (Great Stature, Blessing of the all-Father)

The latter all seem to fit better to me as modifiers for Rage. Like on a Runescarred Berserker primal path for the Barbarian.

I think the same, have a Path about Giants for the Barbarians and focus solely on runes with the Rune Knight.

[Felyndiira]

Only once a day vs the EK that can do it 3 times. Also it takes 2 turn to do those things for a RK, since both SB and Giant Might are BA.
Once a day on the 4d8+1d8. Another time a day on the 3d8+1d8. That doesn't include the effects of the Ild rune that is a free activation.

Taking two turns to do something is okay when you can cast shadow blade first.


Do the same with an EK, don't use SB, and instead use Haste or Greater Invisibility, the DPR increase of advantage to every attack is above 1d8 damage to every attack against most ACs, and an extra attack is likely to yield more damage than 1d8 to every attack under those terms (GWM + Magic weaponry)
A level 20 EK, both using GWM, right? Assuming a 50% chance to hit post-GWM, and also accounting for the Ise rune, the difference in DPR is ~6 for five attacks between greater invis and runes, which is more than made up by the additional 1d8 you can give to a friend for rune knight. If you don't get a free buffing round, Rune Knight pulls even further ahead.

[Waterdeep Merch]

On the balance of the Rune Knight- would it help if the tool/language proficiencies and the Giant's Might were made into a rune instead, thus restricted in the exact same way as the other runes?

It would allow some design space to add a bit of scaling to the other existing runes, too, and cleans things up a bit.

[Daphne]

On the balance of the Rune Knight- would it help if the tool/language proficiencies and the Giant's Might were made into a rune instead, thus restricted in the exact same way as the other runes?

It would allow some design space to add a bit of scaling to the other existing runes, too, and cleans things up a bit.

In my opinion the 1d6 from Giant Might should replace the +2 STR from the ice rune. This kind of temporary +1 bonus to specific rolls is what 5e was made to avoid.

[Rukelnikov]

Once a day on the 4d8+1d8. Another time a day on the 3d8+1d8. That doesn't include the effects of the Ild rune that is a free activation.

Taking two turns to do something is okay when you can cast shadow blade first.


A level 20 EK, both using GWM, right? Assuming a 50% chance to hit post-GWM, and also accounting for the Ise rune, the difference in DPR is ~6 for five attacks between greater invis and runes, which is more than made up by the additional 1d8 you can give to a friend for rune knight. If you don't get a free buffing round, Rune Knight pulls even further ahead.

Lemme see...

Both have 20 Str, GWM, PAM, and lets say a +3 Weapon, right?

RK 1st Turn:
BA: Ise Rune
Action: Attack

2nd Turn:
BA Giant's Might
Action: Attack
AS: Attack

3rd Turn:
Action: Attack
AS: Attack
BA: Attack

4th Turn and above:
Action: Attack
BA: Attack

EK 1st Turn:
Action: GI
AS: Attack
BA: Attack (Improved War Magic)

2nd Turn:
Action: Attack
AS: Attack
BA: Attack

3rd Turn and above:
Action: Attack
BA: Attack

Is that right?

Well lets see what Ludic's DPR calculator has to say about this:

+9 to hit, 1d10+18 damage for both, advantage for the EK on all attacks, +2 Str for the RK on all attacks, +1d8 extra damage for the RK on turns 2 and above.

You said 50% chance to hit, so that would be against an AC 20. (it will be 55% chance to hit for RK due to 22 STR)

RK 1st turn = 55 Damage (4 attacks, +10/1d10+19, no BA attack)
RK 2nd round = 131 Damage (8 attacks, +10/1d10+1d8+19, no BA attack)
RK 3rd round = 146 Damage (8 attacks, +10/1d10+1d8+19, PAM/GWM Attack)
RK 4th and above = 73 (4 attacks, +10/1d10+1d8+19, PAM/GWM Attack)

EK 1st turn = 90 Damage (4+1 attacks, +9/1d10+18)
EK 2nd turn = 151 Damage (8 attacks, +9/1d10+18, PAM/GWM Attack)
EK 3rd turn and above = 83 Damage (4 attacks, +9/1d10+18, PAM/GWM Attack)

1st Turn = EK dealt 35 more damage
2nd Turn = EK dealt 20 more damage (55 favor EK)
3rd Turn = RK dealt 63 more damage (8 favor RK)
4th and above = EK deals 10 more damage (2+10/turn favor EK)

So, the RK comes out ahead if the fight lasts exactly 3 turns, and the EK comes ahead for any other number. This doesn't really scream OP to me, they are comparable, and that's disregarding stuff like, by this lvl, none of those character should have STR 20 to begin with, if you can have a +3 weapon you can have a STR 25 belt, thus Ild rune has already become obsolete by this point. Or that AC 20 is rather low for 20s, and EK pulls even further ahead if you use 25.

The allied party member Giants Might DPR will depend heavily on party composition, if you have another fighter it will be very good, if you have a rogue a cleric and a wizard (the archetypal party), its only 1d8 more to damage (and the rogue may not want to become a giant).

So no, the RK is not OP in any way shape or form from tier 3 onwards. Its very front loaded? Yes we all say that.

[Segev]

I suspect Runic Knight will, in play, turn out to be less potent than imagined, though not by much. Just as Fighter's other subclasses are actually a bit better in play than they initially seem.

The Rogue subclass is...thematically bad. Not as a subclass, but as a rogue subclass. What about being a rogue says "a significant fraction of this class are reincarnates who derive magical powers from their past lives?" With the exception of the daily shifting proficiency, the subclass doesn't feel like it reinforces Rogueness. Even the tie-in to Sneak Attack replaces its use when you indulge it.

This would probably work better as a Bard subclass: tie in to themes of esoteric and ancient knowledge, seeking one's past, and having magic related to experience and lore/story.

A rogue subclass about "return to life" would be better done as an infiltration/exfiltration expert, with the theme that you've literally escaped from the afterlife and stolen your life back. ...heck, with minimal tweaks, that could work with what's here, so maybe I'll jsut recommend that fluff change.

[Daphne]

Why so much focus on level 20? Most people never reach this level. Besides, an EK can cast Greater Invisibility once (and some enemies are immune to it), and Haste three times, while each rune can be used 2/rest and damage isn't everything: storm rune is arguably the strongest and it doesn't deal any direct damage.

Look at stone rune: it's a save-or-suck effect with only one save. It's a single target hypnotic pattern, and you can get this at 3rd level.

[Protolisk]

Look at stone rune: it's a save-or-suck effect with only one save. It's a single target hypnotic pattern, and you can get this at 3rd level.

Is... is this strong to you, or weak?

[jaappleton]

Is... is this strong to you, or weak?

Seems slightly weak to me, because its reliant on Charm. Which... I really don't like.

Now, if it PARALYZED... :smalltongue:

[Lockwolfe]

I don’t understand the people complaining that the subclasses don’t belong to their particular class. Does revenant scream rogue to me? No, not particularly, but I think it’s cool that they’re making a subclass with that theme. Sure, Swarmkeeper seems more obvious as a Druid subclass, but the fact that they went with Ranger seems more interesting to me. So far they’ve tried to fill a lot of classic fantasy archetypes with their subclasses up to this point. Now they’re experimenting, the subclasses are a little weirder, a little more niche and that’s what I love about them.

[jaappleton]

I don’t understand the people complaining that the subclasses don’t belong to their particular class. Does revenant scream rogue to me? No, not particularly, but I think it’s cool that they’re making a subclass with that theme. Sure, Swarmkeeper seems more obvious as a Druid subclass, but the fact that they went with Ranger seems more interesting to me. So far they’ve tried to fill a lot of classic fantasy archetypes with their subclasses up to this point. Now they’re experimenting, the subclasses are a little weirder, a little more niche and that’s what I love about them.

To add to this:

There have been many instances in which an archetype started off as being created for one class, and they moved it to another class.

Tranquility Monk became Redemption Paladin
Monster Hunter Fighter became Monster Slayer Ranger
Scout Fighter became Scout Rogue

I know there's one more that I know about but I can't think of it right now. Oh that's going to aggravate me all day, if I can't think of that last one. But those are just the ones I'm aware of, with no mention of anything behind the scenes that changed which hasn't been revealed outside the design team.

ANYWAYS, experimentation is part of the process, that's what I'm saying.

[Protolisk]

My video game knowledge is a bit off, but isn't the rouge kinda like the Nameless one? As in, whenever he dies, he steals another's soul and randomizes his personality? That... kind of sounds like a rogue thing. Soul stealing.

Just wonder if that was actually what it was based around.

[Rukelnikov]

My video game knowledge is a bit off, but isn't the rouge kinda like the Nameless one? As in, whenever he dies, he steals another's soul and randomizes his personality? That... kind of sounds like a rogue thing. Soul stealing.

Just wonder if that was actually what it was based around.

Revenant is definitely TNO, remembering skills of past lives, changing personality sometimes, speaking with the dead... I was surprised capstone didn't involve some kind of revivification.

PS:T spoilers
TNO doesn't steal souls when he "dies", what happens is that when he would die death is redirected towards the closest living being IIRC

[Daphne]

There have been many instances in which an archetype started off as being created for one class, and they moved it to another class.

Tranquility Monk became Redemption Paladin
Monster Hunter Fighter became Monster Slayer Ranger
Scout Fighter became Scout Rogue

Which is a shame, since I loved all these three subclasses :smallsigh:

[jaappleton]

Which is a shame, since I loved all these three subclasses :smallsigh:

I also loved them. Really want to do a Monser Hunter Fighter for Avernus. That lv7 feature :smallbiggrin:

[Scarytincan]

You really think Rune Knight is power creep? I would definitely accept power dip, but in the long run, like in tier 3, I don't see it being above an EK tbh

Mostly the large size thing. The rest seems just fine overall.

Edit: though looking more directly at just level three... Ya power creep there. Maybe I'm just still raw after twilight cleric tho...

[jaappleton]

Mostly the large size thing. The rest seems just fine overall.

Edit: though looking more directly at just level three... Ya power creep there. Maybe I'm just still raw after twilight cleric tho...

Someone, anyone, please tell me the benefits of being Large and how it’s terrible.

Because the Enlarge spell already can make you Large, and nobody complains about that spell being OP or anything.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Someone, anyone, please tell me the benefits of being Large and how it’s terrible.

Because the Enlarge spell already can make you Large, and nobody complains about that spell being OP or anything.

I guess it being a bonus action and giving 1d6 rather than 1d4 at level 3 (and then 1d8 at 10) is what's putting people off, but the damage isn't totally insane and it's something you do twice per long rest for your entire adventuring career past level 3. I don't see an enormous issue with it myself, but I can see why it's off putting to some at least.

I'm more interested in the "if you lack the room to become large, your size doesn't change" because there are times where being large is inconvenient and the feature has a built in way to not suffer that inconvenience and still gain the benefits that are presumably tied to being large.

[Luccan]

Someone, anyone, please tell me the benefits of being Large and how it’s terrible.

Because the Enlarge spell already can make you Large, and nobody complains about that spell being OP or anything.

My guess, since I don't think it's that bad, is that it's arguably better than Rage. Additionally, like Rage, it doesn't depend on spending any other resource to use it. Enlarge requires you spending a spell slot to cast. Even if you would benefit from using the spell on yourself (and many character who have the spell would not), you have to weigh that against your spells per day and what other spells you might want to cast. It renders it into an occasional party buff. Again, just my guess.

[Daphne]

Someone, anyone, please tell me the benefits of being Large and how it’s terrible.

Because the Enlarge spell already can make you Large, and nobody complains about that spell being OP or anything.

It's not OP, it's that the subclass is too packed with features. Heck, if they printed a "Giant Warrior" subclass with Giant Might x3 or x4 times a day as it's only feature at 3rd level it would be a good subclass, not the best but still good.

[AdAstra]

Lemme see...
Scrubbed
So no, the RK is not OP in any way shape or form from tier 3 onwards. Its very front loaded? Yes we all say that.

Where are you getting advantage on all attacks for the Eldritch Knight from? Shadow Blade? aside from being situational, that disallows PAM and GWM (ah, greater invisibility). Also I would check different combinations of runes, considering how Giant Might could very well offer more damage than the Ise. Also no accounting the Fire Rune, which has no action cost, and deals damage, and gives you advantage, and gives the enemy disadvantage.

EDIT: Also, why does the EK Action Surge first turn but the RK doesn't? There seem to be a lot of these little things that seriously skew the data. Also since the RK can't use their bonus action for PAM the first few rounds, the obvious choice is to use a Greatsword for the first two rounds, if not longer. The RK is already super BA-heavy, PAM loses a lot of its luster

[AdAstra]

Someone, anyone, please tell me the benefits of being Large and how it’s terrible.

Because the Enlarge spell already can make you Large, and nobody complains about that spell being OP or anything.

Giant Might is better than Enlarge as a buff, and has no concentration, can be "cast" as a bonus action (and since it's not a spell I guess in theory it would work with spells, but in practice that's probably not going to matter). It's also available to fighters at the same level as Enlarge/Reduce is for full-casters. It's also one of two separate powerful class features. It's not OP, but it's objectively stronger than a 2nd level spell in every respect.

[Rukelnikov]

Where are you getting advantage on all attacks for the Eldritch Knight from? Shadow Blade? aside from being situational, that disallows PAM and GWM (ah, greater invisibility). Also I would check different combinations of runes, considering how Giant Might could very well offer more damage than the Ise. Also no accounting the Fire Rune, which has no action cost, and deals damage, and gives you advantage, and gives the enemy disadvantage.

EDIT: Also, why does the EK Action Surge first turn but the RK doesn't? There seem to be a lot of these little things that seriously skew the data. Also since the RK can't use their bonus action for PAM the first few rounds, the obvious choice is to use a Greatsword for the first two rounds, if not longer. The RK is already super BA-heavy, PAM loses a lot of its luster

Because it doesnt have Giants Might active in first round, so I used both when Rune and might were active. And these builds are not optimized, the EK likely does better with a Flametonge GS and a Str 25 than with PAM and a +3 Weapon (didnt check the nymbers though its just a supposition)

[AdAstra]

Because it doesnt have Giants Might active in first round, so I used both when Rune and might were active. And these builds are not optimized, the EK likely does better with a Flametonge GS and a Str 25 than with PAM and a +3 Weapon (didnt check the nymbers though its just a supposition)

Whiteroom number-crunching has much the same problems as just evaluating and comparing features. You miss out on how the classes interact with other characters (i.e. it's far easier to get advantage on attack rolls than 1d8 to damage, and since advantage doesn't stack 1d8 can often be a better class feature). You miss out on all the different equipment variations and their unique effects on each build, but using different equipment introduces more variables. Same goes with feats and other choices. I think the better avenue is directly comparing the features, then the synergy between features (from both the class and subclass), then synergy with things "outside" your character, like magic items and other PCs giving buffs.

[Rukelnikov]

Whiteroom number-crunching has much the same problems as just evaluating and comparing features. You miss out on how the classes interact with other characters (i.e. it's far easier to get advantage on attack rolls than 1d8 to damage, and since advantage doesn't stack 1d8 can often be a better class feature). You miss out on all the different equipment variations and their unique effects on each build, but using different equipment introduces more variables. Same goes with feats and other choices. I think the better avenue is directly comparing the features, then the synergy between features (from both the class and subclass), then synergy with things "outside" your character, like magic items and other PCs giving buffs.

We could argue about this for pages, since there are thousands of possible party compositions and loadouts, however, I don't think that's necessary, if we are discussing a couple points of DPR, then they are in the same tier.

[WadeWay33]

Personally, I like the flavor of all of the new subclasses, though their concepts were poorly implemented. The Rogue should have been a background, the Rune Knight could be worded better, and somebody needs to take a look through that ranger subclass again.

[AdAstra]

We could argue about this for pages, since there are thousands of possible party compositions and loadouts, however, I don't think that's necessary, if we are discussing a couple points of DPR, then they are in the same tier.

You're the one who crunched the numbers. No one's arguing any of these are in a whole other tier. I definitely have not. It's just got features that are clearly overtuned when you compare them, like the Heroism Oath. As I've said before, we have an example in Battlemaster, which most people agree is both quite strong and very frontloaded. I think there's a good argument to be made that Rune Knight is stronger than that. I think that's something worth addressing.

[Mongobear]

You're the one who crunched the numbers. No one's arguing any of these are in a whole other tier. I definitely have not. It's just got features that are clearly overtuned when you compare them, like the Heroism Oath. As I've said before, we have an example in Battlemaster, which most people agree is both quite strong and very frontloaded. I think there's a good argument to be made that Rune Knight is stronger than that. I think that's something worth addressing.

He's still just a Fighter though. Not like he has a Wish rune, or Simulacrum cheese. He gets big, he hits things, and he has a few utility abilities to help out his party.

You're complaining about Apache Chief getting to punch things when Darkseid is over here disintegrating entire planets and trapping people for eternity.

[Dork_Forge]

He's still just a Fighter though. Not like he has a Wish rune, or Simulacrum cheese. He gets big, he hits things, and he has a few utility abilities to help out his party.

You're complaining about Apache Chief getting to punch things when Darkseid is over here disintegrating entire planets and trapping people for eternity.

Comparing them to a Wizard is meaningless, this is meant to be about how balanced a new subclass is against the existing subclasses. In that respect the Rune Knight seems to be one of the more powerful (if not the most) when comparing to existing Fighter subclasses.

[ATHATH]

The following changes I would make to Rune Knight:


Giant Might damage boost is decreased to 1d4 instead of 1d6. It still increases to 1d8 with Great Stature. Rationale: DPR was too high, and this brings it in line with the 2nd-level spell it's replicating.
Haug's active effect is changed to be your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Rationale: Adds a restriction to an otherwise amazing ability, and adds tactical depth to both the player and the DM. The player must weigh the consequences of each damage type, and monster tactics might shift as a result.
Uvar's active effect can no longer affect hostile creatures' saving throws. Rationale: Lore Bard can't impose penalties to hostile creatures' saving throws either, despite being able to affect most other rolls. There's a reason for that.

These seem like really good changes.

Also, I'm surprised that only one person so far has pointed out that the Revived subclass is a blatant Planescape: Torment reference.

2 sneak attacks per round with no resource expenditure at level 3 from the Revived subclass is kind of scary. What if they changed it so that you didn't need to fire off the blast immediately after using Cunning Action (so you could disengage+move away+attack) but made it cost your action to fire the blast, bringing it in line with the other "Sneak Attack when you normally couldn't" effects that many of the other Rogue subclasses get (Inquisitve, Swashbuckler, etc.)?

Just slap a 2-3 times per long rest restriction on Audience with Death, and the ability should be fine and really, really flavorful. If failed death saves were only reset upon taking a short or long rest, I'd think that this ability would be perfect, but alas, the rules of the game were not written that way.

When I look at the Swarmkeeper Ranger, all I can think of is: why aren't you playing an Agonizing Blast+Repelling Blast+Hex+Eldritch Blast spam Warlock instead? ... Actually, I guess the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter might make the "mundane" route worth it, but it'd be close, since the Hex spell applies on every hit while the Gathered Swarm ability can only proc once per turn (and only on your turn). Writhing Tide is cool, and while Scuttling Eyes is badass, the ability to teleport to your "Arcane Eye" is not as good as it seems, since you can't bring your party along with you. Storm of Minions is cool, but it's a shame that targets save against it with CON and the numbers seem a bit low. I mean, 2d8 (save for half) in an AoE at level 15? Really? I know the main draw is the blindness (and the ability to move the sphere as an action), but c'mon, this is a capstone ability here. Also, only being able to move it 30 feet might be a bit of an issue against certain kinds of enemies, but hey, people still use Spiritual Weapon despite it only being able to move 20 feet per round, so that's probably not much of a problem.

The Rune Knight subclass is just bonkers good, and it just STOMPS on the toes of the Battlemaster and the Barbarian. Funny side note: the Skye rune can redirect spells that use attack rolls; redirecting an enemy caster's Contagion spell to target one of their allies can be good fun (and it's a situation that doesn't occur very often, so I think that this interaction is fine). With the proposed changes mentioned in the above quote, though, I think that this subclass will be balanced enough for me to try out (you might wanna buff the Battlemaster a little bit to set the standard set by the Rune Knight, though), and it does look like it'll be quite fun to play (maybe it might be a good idea to let Rune Knights switch out their runes known on a long rest instead of when leveling up, to add even more variety to their combats? I dunno; that might not be a good idea).

[AdAstra]

Comparing them to a Wizard is meaningless, this is meant to be about how balanced a new subclass is against the existing subclasses. In that respect the Rune Knight seems to be one of the more powerful (if not the most) when comparing to existing Fighter subclasses.

Yeah I'm not sure what's people's issue is. The subclass is bonkers strong in early levels. Sure maybe it levels off, but that's still usually something that should be addressed in a balance pass. They gave us this material to playtest and critique. And there are improvements to be made, so what's people's issue?

[Segev]

I don’t understand the people complaining that the subclasses don’t belong to their particular class. Does revenant scream rogue to me? No, not particularly, but I think it’s cool that they’re making a subclass with that theme. Sure, Swarmkeeper seems more obvious as a Druid subclass, but the fact that they went with Ranger seems more interesting to me. So far they’ve tried to fill a lot of classic fantasy archetypes with their subclasses up to this point. Now they’re experimenting, the subclasses are a little weirder, a little more niche and that’s what I love about them.

Part of experimenting is finding out what doesn't work. I didn't say I disliked the subclasses...I just said that I didn't think the Rogue one fit Rogue. The concept is interesting, but needs work to be a good subclass. Either alterations to it to make it fit roguish themes better, or being refitted to be in a different class (e.g. Bard).

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah I'm not sure what's people's issue is. The subclass is bonkers strong in early levels. Sure maybe it levels off, but that's still usually something that should be addressed in a balance pass. They gave us this material to playtest and critique. And there are improvements to be made, so what's people's issue?

I'm not sure, I think for all the complaints of power creep, some people do want that kind of thing and some may not realise that they like it.

Personally I find the Giant aspect crammed in and competing for theme with the runes, I'd rather the Giant stuff be a different subclass altogether.

The comparison with Enlarge is also very telling, the ability is better than Enlarge in EVERY WAY. It doesn't have the inherent weaknesses of being a spell, it doesn't require concentration, it's a bonus and not only does it deal more damage but that damage later increases further (on a class where it would naturally though extra attack anyway).

I love the idea of runes and the passive and active approach, but the options themselves seem a bit... much?

I don't really want to restrain and burn people... how about a simple fire damage rider? How about the ice rune actually dealing with ice/cold more...

If they adjusted the runes, added one more option and then realised an accompanying feat (alas Martial Adept) then I'd be ecstatic with this and be building the crap out of a Rune Knight.

[AdAstra]

I'm not sure, I think for all the complaints of power creep, some people do want that kind of thing and some may not realise that they like it.

Personally I find the Giant aspect crammed in and competing for theme with the runes, I'd rather the Giant stuff be a different subclass altogether.

The comparison with Enlarge is also very telling, the ability is better than Enlarge in EVERY WAY. It doesn't have the inherent weaknesses of being a spell, it doesn't require concentration, it's a bonus and not only does it deal more damage but that damage later increases further (on a class where it would naturally though extra attack anyway).

I love the idea of runes and the passive and active approach, but the options themselves seem a bit... much?

I don't really want to restrain and burn people... how about a simple fire damage rider? How about the ice rune actually dealing with ice/cold more...

If they adjusted the runes, added one more option and then realised an accompanying feat (alas Martial Adept) then I'd be ecstatic with this and be building the crap out of a Rune Knight.

Maybe separate the runes into different categories (ie passive and active, maybe calling them blessing and power runes?), and let you add one of each to your weapons/armor/shield? Allows you to mix-and-match. Fold Giant Might into a rune power or two, expand the combat options. Of course, that makes it a tad more difficult to balance (can't compensate for poor passive abilities with strong active ones), so it may not be the best path. But yeah, it's the Rune Knight. Make it's class features revolve around the Runes, not becoming a mini-giant (though again, that would be a fine rune power).

[Maxilian]

I really like Rune Knight, but i think some of the rune options should have a minimum lvl requirement (like some of the Warlocks Invocations)

[Kane0]

Perhaps have the runes have an active and passive effect, and if you use the active effect the passive is disabled until you rest.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah I'm not sure what's people's issue is. The subclass is bonkers strong in early levels. Sure maybe it levels off, but that's still usually something that should be addressed in a balance pass. They gave us this material to playtest and critique. And there are improvements to be made, so what's people's issue?

No issue at all just don't see it stronger than the EK, I know its very powerful at 3, but tbh for me the only prob with that is if it becomes a dip class, like Hexblade, would that be the case? No full caster that dedicates 3 lvls to this will be better than just going caster, and most other martials have better dips/MCs to take, maybe monk for a lot of damage at early lvls, but the delay in progression will be a killer a couple lvls down the road, maybe Barb? Maybe... but that's just it.

[Mongobear]

No issue at all just don't see it stronger than the EK, I know its very powerful at 3, but tbh for me the only prob with that is if it becomes a dip class, like Hexblade, would that be the case? No full caster that dedicates 3 lvls to this will be better than just going caster, and most other martials have better dips/MCs to take, maybe monk for a lot of damage at early lvls, but the delay in progression will be a killer a couple lvls down the road, maybe Barb? Maybe... but that's just it.

Barbarian + Giants Might would be funny, 1d6+2 added to every attack minimum. Maybe 1d6+6 if you're like 17/3 that's almost enough to make PAM or TWFing actually comparable, or god forbid, Eberron Revenant Blade.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Rogue: too many features at level 3; I am still pondering over the higher level stuff ... but the overall feel is that of too much feature creep.

I'd suggest getting rid of the "don't need to eat drink or sleep" and get rid of "you don't need to rest." The rogue is a humanoid creature, as are all PCs, not an undead. (Not commenting on war forged)

Keep the resistance to poison.

Bolts from grave: OK, ranged sneak attack with necrotic damage instead of using it in melee. Someone up a few posts suggested using d4 instead of d6, which strikes me as a decent idea since now the rogue needs to make a choice. All in all, the points on it offering an abusable 'reaction' SA is as true for melee as for ranged, at first guess. This feature would be worth play testing from levels 3-6, I think, to see what it does.

Rune: fine on warrior, but it really looks like a barbarian theme. It seems to be a variation on EK; I am sketching out what I think it ought to look like in terms of how many and when ... not quite there yet. This one I'll for sure provide detailed feed back on to WoTC in a week or two since it seems to me a nice Fighter expansion.

Swarm Ranger: Good bonus spells. The rest seems kinda weird, feel wise, but nothing over the top. Strikes me as a Feywild related sub class.

[Razgriez]

While I see a few people saying this would also work as a Barbarian subclass and agree it could, I also don't see a problem with it being a Fighter Subclass (and can even be refluffed easily to other themes. Say a "Dwarven Runesmith" just to throw out one example, or an Elven Exarch who uses ancient runes of knowledge and foresight and is definitely-not-WH40k Aeldari :smallwink:)

This also could be a potential story-hook for Storm King's Thunder campaigns for fighters or to add a new encounter to breath new life into the module.

There is arguably some powercreep here compared to Base Class Fighter and other Subclasses, but Fighter perhaps has some room for that. The passive effects of the runes that focus on Skill and Tool usage tend to be either "Meh, whatever" to "Potentially useful if you build your fighter specifically in this way and/or your campaign makes use of this". But there are a few that raise an eyebrow and one that has me going "Yea... that needs some re-balance before going to official release"

Rune Knight Fighter 3: Bonus Proficiencies- Smith Tools and Speak/Read/Write Giant Your basic fluff skills. Nothing wrong here, easily mutable for re-flavor for alternative settings or the like. The main thing is just trying to get time and usage out of the skills.

Lv 3. Rune Magic:Starting at level 3, and Fighter 7/10/15, you know and can inscribe 2/3/4/5 runes to Weapons/Shields/Armor. Cue every Fighter 15/Monk-or-Barbarian 5 going "My Body is my weapon and armor" to avoid the "Wizard's Book" dilemma. You do need 5 pieces total, but unless the DM is a stickler for saying "No, you *must* be "Using/holding" the weapon properly to gain the benefit, simply carrying a weapon in a sheath/baldric/scabbard/frog/hanger seems to count as does a shield on your back (or enter into the Munchkin Olympics, and declare that the shield is a small buckler strapped to your arm, while offering a plate of cheese to your DM as a peace offering).

As for the runes themselves, there's six of them, so you won't be able to take one of them regardless how much you level unless your DM grants it as reward. The Save DC for Fire and Stone active effects is 8+Intelligence Mod+Proficiency, so that's a bit of a bummer that you're expected to invest in a stat that even EKs with 1/3rd casting don't invest much more than 14-16 in:
-Haug/Hill is probably the most General Purpose, Poison Resistance/Save Advantage as a passive, Pierce/Slash/Bludgeoning resist active is something bound to help for a Fighter. Your DM has to practically be taking pains to avoid having this being useful

-Ild/Fire, thankfully the subclass comes with Smith Tool proficiencies and the Tool Usage "expertise" (you still have to have proficiency/jack-of-all to benefit) can be useful provided you push for Tool usage. The Active: Fire Shackles is one of the better ones. Force a Strength saving throw against your Rune DC, to inflict Restrained and 2d6 Fire/turn? Sure. Where do I sign up my Dwarven Runesmith?

-Ise/Frost: This is either a Hit or Miss rune in regards to build and passives. Animal Handling is unfortunately heavily dependent on campaign/game, and Intimidate might be one of the few Charisma skills a non-Samurai/Cavalier Fighter picks up. The +2 Strength boost for 10 minutes however is an easy sell to any Strength build Fighter, since it allows you to break the cap of 20 temporarily and can synergize with certain high-powered Belts of Giant Strength. For a Dex Fighter? Move along, this is the rune you will not be taking

-Skye/Cloud: This one is directed to a very specific kind of Fighter, the kind that "Fills in" for the Rogue via a Criminal/Spy/Gambler/etc background. The active has some neat potential though: Shift a hit from the party's Squishy Wizard to your self or another party tank. Shift the Mid-Boss/One-Winged Angel form Final Boss attacks to one of its minions/appendages with its own stats to remove a threat at the cost of a reaction.

-Stein/Stone: Somewhere, optimizers/power-gamers just squealed in delight. Darkvision 60 ft/+30 if you already have it and Advantage-Insight as a passive, and while its likely to be resisted at times, Reaction-Incapacitate a target as an active is something that's just too good to pass up on. You're getting this rune no matter what. (it also further pushes the question of "Why even bother worrying about illumination at this point, because every class will apparently eventually give Darkvision that now only the Darkness spell will be a problem, and then everyone will dip Warlock to fix that)

-Uvar/Storm: Avoid Surprise penalties (Annoy those Ezio styled Assassin-Rogues out there!), and you can pretend that you paid attention and stayed awake the entire time during the Wizard's 5 hour long Treatise on Arcane Theory with Advantage to Knowledge: Arcana tests!
The Active's 1 Minute duration state of giving everyone and everything within 60 ft of you Advantage or Disadvantage however? Uh...yea that's a 9th-level spell called Foresight normally learned at level 17+ for casters. Meanwhile, the fighter knows how to draw a few lines at level 3, and the only limitations are "It only last one minute, cost your Reaction to trigger the effect". But it recharges on Short or Long Rest as well. Yea, there's Power Creep, and then there's Power Leaps. This is the latter.

The rest of the abilities are, aside from their magical nature, another variation of "How to roll more damage dice, take less damage, and help the party in combat" you expect from a fighter.

[JBPuffin]

Been awhile since I checked GitP’s take on UA stuff...not sure why I expected anything different than what’s been said.

All these seem like things someone on the team built for a specific player that the people they talked about with thought should be MotW widespread.

Revived looks power-crept, but honestly it’s not as bad as you might think, since Bolt uses SA for the turn and means you’re splitting your damage/turn into two attacks and thereby dropping your average, plus necrotic isn’t always a useful damage type (second-most resisted? maybe most? forgotten the numbers on it); the warforged traits are pretty much ribbons in the games I’ve played in; “knowledge of everyone dead” seems better than it is - some people have been dead a long time and may have forgotten the info they want, and some things just don’t stick; connect with dead is just a ribbon as well, and the extra proficiency might as well be. Neat, though, really neat.

Rune Knight has some neat stuff going on with it, sort of reminds me of a class I started working on awhile back honestly. Good choice for a magic-user fighter that isn’t the Eldritch Knight.

Swarm Ranger is weak, definitely, because rangers can’t get nice things, but BEES the character sounds like fun at least.

[Kane0]

Been awhile since I checked GitP’s take on UA stuff...not sure why I expected anything different than what’s been said.


Not sure if that's a good or bad thing?

[AdAstra]

No issue at all just don't see it stronger than the EK, I know its very powerful at 3, but tbh for me the only prob with that is if it becomes a dip class, like Hexblade, would that be the case? No full caster that dedicates 3 lvls to this will be better than just going caster, and most other martials have better dips/MCs to take, maybe monk for a lot of damage at early lvls, but the delay in progression will be a killer a couple lvls down the road, maybe Barb? Maybe... but that's just it.

Well how long do you feel that it remains notably stronger than other subclasses? I would argue that at least until level 11 it outclasses EK due to the short rest recharge of its abilities. And then at 15 the primary source of the class’s power doubles.

As to multiclassing, Arcane Trickster or Artificer sound pretty good. A cleric would do well to multiclass into it for extra attack and a pile of strong bonus action abilities that don’t take up concentration or interfere with spellcasting. Maybe go to 7 for that AC boost and extra rune if you have the stats for it. Hill Rune for resistance, then Spirit Guardians? Then get large and start bashing skulls. And wildshape has no restrictions that would apply to Giant Might... which isn’t so much overpowered as it is awesome. Unless you wildshape into a deinonychus, which can get four attacks, which is more just compensating for the fact that it’s not all that strong to begin with.

[Rukelnikov]

Well how long do you feel that it remains notably stronger than other subclasses? I would argue that at least until level 11 it outclasses EK due to the short rest recharge of its abilities. And then at 15 the primary source of the class’s power doubles.

Berween 5 and 7 likely.


As to multiclassing, Arcane Trickster or Artificer sound pretty good.

Rogues in general dont wanna be large, they wanna hide easily, and artificer is an UA class, don't take those into account, Brute is in there, thats an example of a fighter subclass that is really OP, not RK.


A cleric would do well to multiclass into it for extra attack and a pile of strong bonus action abilities that don’t take up concentration or interfere with spellcasting. Maybe go to 7 for that AC boost and extra rune if you have the stats for it. Hill Rune for resistance, then Spirit Guardians? Then get large and start bashing skulls. And wildshape has no restrictions that would apply to Giant Might... which isn’t so much overpowered as it is awesome. Unless you wildshape into a deinonychus, which can get four attacks, which is more just compensating for the fact that it’s not all that strong to begin with.

Yeah sure, a full caster will do better by dedicating 7 levels to Fighter, wonder why I didnt think of that before?

[AdAstra]

Berween 5 and 7 likely.



Rogues in general dont wanna be large, they wanna hide easily, and artificer is an UA class, don't take those into account, Brute is in there, thats an example of a fighter subclass that is really OP, not RK.



Yeah sure, a full caster will do better by dedicating 7 levels to Fighter, wonder why I didnt think of that before?



Not every rogue cares about hiding. Sneak attack works just as well with Str and heavy armor as long as you use a rapier. Swashbuckler is also viable for that if you want to play more independently.

Yeah Brute is OP. An OP thing being more powerful than something doesn't mean that other thing isn't overtuned. And again, RK isn't OP, it's just overtuned, especially at lower levels.

Well we can't all be stars. I would disagree on this one, since cleric gains a lot less at higher levels than pretty much any other caster. They get minimal abilities (though 14th level subclass abilities are strong). I could 100% see taking 5 levels of Rune Knight and being better off than getting those last 5 Cleric levels (9th level cleric spells aren't all that if you aren't looking to get gith sicced on you for abusing Astral Projection). You've still got the last subclass ability, Anti-Magic Field, Holy Aura, Divine Word, and such.

[Rukelnikov]

Not every rogue cares about hiding. Sneak attack works just as well with Str and heavy armor as long as you use a rapier. Swashbuckler is also viable for that if you want to play more independently.

Yeah Brute is OP. An OP thing being more powerful than something doesn't mean that other thing isn't overtuned. And again, RK isn't OP, it's just overtuned, especially at lower levels.

Well we can't all be stars. I would disagree on this one, since cleric gains a lot less at higher levels than pretty much any other caster. They get minimal abilities (though 14th level subclass abilities are strong). I could 100% see taking 5 levels of Rune Knight and being better off than getting those last 5 Cleric levels (9th level cleric spells aren't all that if you aren't looking to get gith sicced on you for abusing Astral Projection). You've still got the last subclass ability, Anti-Magic Field, Holy Aura, Divine Word, and such.

have a nice day

[Amechra]

Swarm Ranger is weak, definitely, because rangers can’t get nice things, but BEES the character sounds like fun at least.

It has the very nice and very easy to miss quirk of being able to burn spell slots to use the higher level features extra times. If they keep nothing else from the subclass, I want them to keep that.

I also expect that Gathering Swarm will be better in play than people expect, mostly due to that shove/pull rider it has. I do agree that it would've been nice if they had buffed it up a little (especially since it's in the same document as the Rune Knight, who gets a feature that can potentially be used more often that gives +1d6 damage to every weapon attack. TANJ, seriously.)

[Crgaston]

Not every rogue cares about hiding. Sneak attack works just as well with Str and heavy armor as long as you use a rapier. Swashbuckler is also viable for that if you want to play more independently.

Yeah Brute is OP. An OP thing being more powerful than something doesn't mean that other thing isn't overtuned. And again, RK isn't OP, it's just overtuned, especially at lower levels.

Well we can't all be stars. I would disagree on this one, since cleric gains a lot less at higher levels than pretty much any other caster. They get minimal abilities (though 14th level subclass abilities are strong). I could 100% see taking 5 levels of Rune Knight and being better off than getting those last 5 Cleric levels (9th level cleric spells aren't all that if you aren't looking to get gith sicced on you for abusing Astral Projection). You've still got the last subclass ability, Anti-Magic Field, Holy Aura, Divine Word, and such.

I think you're spot-on here.

Any VHuman Fighter/Rogue build has just been given a very tempting new option... Darkvision at L3 from Fighter. Along with that same Rune comes Advantage on Insight rolls, and Inquisitive Rogues have an ability to gain SA via an Insight vs. Deception check.

This is fantastic in conjunction with Giant Might. If you want to grapple an enemy to keep them away from other party members, the Inquisitive Rune Knight lets you drag them off and kill them to death with your [super-sized short sword that hits like a great sword] + Sneak Attack.

This is the Stone Rune, and it's just one of 2 Runes you get at L3. It ALSO gives you a 1/SR Incapacitated effect which, against a solo enemy, would let your team ready actions to use on [the player who in just ahead of you in Initiative order]'s next attack. So even though taking damage ends the Incapacitated condition, all the damage is applied before the enemy gets an action.

A Cleric/Rune Knight with Resistance to B/P/S and Poison (via the Hill Rune) who is able to be Large, Grapple 2 enemies, hold them in Spirit Guardians, Bonus Action attack with Spiritual Weapon and use their Reaction (via the Storm Rune) to grant Advantage or Disadvantage to any roll they choose? Umm yep.

They are potentially MAD, but not significantly until they hit RK7.

I feel like the Storm Rune should probably be gated behind Rune Knight 7. It's Foresight Light at 3rd level.

[AdAstra]

I think you're spot-on here.

Any VHuman Fighter/Rogue build has just been given a very tempting new option... Darkvision at L3 from Fighter. Along with that same Rune comes Advantage on Insight rolls, and Inquisitive Rogues have an ability to gain SA via an Insight vs. Deception check.

This is fantastic in conjunction with Giant Might. If you want to grapple an enemy to keep them away from other party members, the Inquisitive Rune Knight lets you drag them off and kill them to death with your [super-sized short sword that hits like a great sword] + Sneak Attack.

This is the Stone Rune, and it's just one of 2 Runes you get at L3. It ALSO gives you a 1/SR Incapacitated effect which, against a solo enemy, would let your team ready actions to use on [the player who in just ahead of you in Initiative order]'s next attack. So even though taking damage ends the Incapacitated condition, all the damage is applied before the enemy gets an action.

A Cleric/Rune Knight with Resistance to B/P/S and Poison (via the Hill Rune) who is able to be Large, Grapple 2 enemies, hold them in Spirit Guardians, Bonus Action attack with Spiritual Weapon and use their Reaction (via the Storm Rune) to grant Advantage or Disadvantage to any roll they choose? Umm yep.

They are potentially MAD, but not significantly until they hit RK7.

I feel like the Storm Rune should probably be gated behind Rune Knight 7. It's Foresight Light at 3rd level.

Ah! Forgot that the last cleric subclass ability is at 17, not 14. Eh, still, Rune Knight 3 gives you a lot (can grab Defense, Second Wind, Action Surge, Runes, and Giant Might), and an RK11/Tempest 9 seems like a rather fun idea, or maybe RK 3/Arcana 17 for some excellent lockdown power through boosted Booming Blade and of course, those tasty high-level Wizard spells.

Regardless, yeah. I think for one, Giant Might should not be a separate power from everything else. In addition to making it difficult to refluff the class as anything other than Giant Fighter, there's just no reason why it should be a different ability and it frontloads the class too much. Folding it into the runes and adding more would be a welcome change.

[Damon_Tor]

Wait wait wait.

Can the creature created by Scuttling Eyes... attack?


"As an action, you can magically form one of the spirits of your swarm into the shape of a Tiny beast of your choice. The transformation lasts for 1 hour, at which point the spirit disappears. For the duration, the spirit has a speed of 40 feet, which it can use to walk, climb, fly, or swim. The spirit has your senses and telepathically relays what it sees and hears to you. During your turn, you can speak through the spirit, telepathically command it to move, and it can Hide using your bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks. The spirit has AC 18. If it takes damage, you must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 10, or half the damage dealt, whichever is higher) or the spirit disappears.As an action, you can dismiss the spirit early. If you do, you can magically teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of where the spirit disappeared.Onceyou use this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest. You can also use it again by expending a spell slotof 3rdlevel or higher."

I don't think that's the intent: I don't think it's supposed to even have a stat block. But the wording of "the shape of a tiny beast of your choice" is similar enough to the wording of abilities like Polymorph and Find Familiar (which do pull the stat block from another creature) to create confusion. Find Familiar specifically notes that the creature created cannot attack, though this feature says nothing of the sort. Of course there's also nothing here that would imply that you could order it to do anything but move where you want it to and to hide, but there doesn't seem to be any reason it couldn't attack on its own volition if you ask it nicely.

Would the spirit created by this feature be a viable target for Giant Insect, which this archetype gets at level 13? If so, would it maintain the extra movement modes and AC bonus?

Anyway, this should probably be clarified. If the "shape" of the tiny beast is purely visual and not meant to impart the stat block of that creature, the feature should say so.

[AdAstra]

Wait wait wait.

Can the creature created by Scuttling Eyes... attack?

SCRUBBED FOR LENGTH

Anyway, this should probably be clarified. If the "shape" of the tiny beast is purely visual and not meant to impart the stat block of that creature, the feature should say so.

I would assume that the set speed, movement types, and AC, in combination with the talk of “shape” rather than “form” like find familiar heavily implies that it is not meant to actually have the stat block of the chosen creature. I doubt they would’ve included the Wis-save-or-lose-spirit aspect if it had hit points of any kind, which would also completely go against the idea of using another creature’s stat block.

[Damon_Tor]

I would assume that the set speed, movement types, and AC, in combination with the talk of “shape” rather than “form” like find familiar heavily implies that it is not meant to actually have the stat block of the chosen creature. I doubt they would’ve included the Wis-save-or-lose-spirit aspect if it had hit points of any kind, which would also completely go against the idea of using another creature’s stat block.

I agree with all of that, but it isn't clear. I probably isn't a big deal either way: there aren't any tiny beasts that can really make a big difference at level 11 anyway. The potential for a flying AC 18 giant scorpion is there though.

[Spectrulus]

I agree with all of that, but it isn't clear. I probably isn't a big deal either way: there aren't any tiny beasts that can really make a big difference at level 11 anyway. The potential for a flying AC 18 giant scorpion is there though.

As much as we all would welcome our flying scorpion overlords...

The swarm isnt a beast, it is made of fey spirits that resmble beasts. They techincally aren't even creatures.

Rune Knight: Seems like a more skill focused Eldritch Knight, I agree the bonus damage could be knocked down to 1d4. Mostly seems to have defensive abilities, unlike many other fighter archetypes which mostly pile on more hurt. Kind of a Ancestral Guardian fighter in playstyle.

Swarm Keeper: Adds good spells to a ranger, lots of fluff, good combat and non combat options. Having a pseudo-familiar is neat since rangers don't normally have one. Limited flight, positioning opttions for you and your opponents, seems nice.

Revived: I like the idea with this. I find it really funny how so many thought this gave a Rogue two sneak attacks though.

Bolts from the Grave uses up your once/turn sneak attack. No double sneak attack shenanigans, unlike high level Scout rogues. Did your weapon apply Sneak Attack? No Bolts from the Grave this turn.

Bolts from the Grave uses your bonus action, just like an off hand attack for many rogue builds. A thrown weapon or hand crossbow would even deal more damage. The big benefit is the damage type, and having a reason to Dash most turns.

This archetype basically gives you weak magic throwing daggers IF your main attack missess. Something other builds could do by buying darts or daggers.

[stoutstien]

As much as we all would welcome our flying scorpion overlords...

The swarm isnt a beast, it is made of fey spirits that resmble beasts. They techincally aren't even creatures.

Rune Knight: Seems like a more skill focused Eldritch Knight, I agree the bonus damage could be knocked down to 1d4. Mostly seems to have defensive abilities, unlike many other fighter archetypes which mostly pile on more hurt. Kind of a Ancestral Guardian fighter in playstyle.

Swarm Keeper: Adds good spells to a ranger, lots of fluff, good combat and non combat options. Having a pseudo-familiar is neat since rangers don't normally have one. Limited flight, positioning opttions for you and your opponents, seems nice.

Revived: I like the idea with this. I find it really funny how so many thought this gave a Rogue two sneak attacks though.

Bolts from the Grave uses up your once/turn sneak attack. No double sneak attack shenanigans, unlike high level Scout rogues. Did your weapon apply Sneak Attack? No Bolts from the Grave this turn.

Bolts from the Grave uses your bonus action, just like an off hand attack for many rogue builds. A thrown weapon or hand crossbow would even deal more damage. The big benefit is the damage type, and having a reason to Dash most turns.

This archetype basically gives you weak magic throwing daggers IF your main attack hits. Something other builds could do by buying darts or daggers.

The way that they're getting two sneak attacks a round not turn is using the bolt first and if it hits they use their action to ready and attack some way to use their reaction to get a sneak attack. Corny but legit.

[Spectrulus]

The way that they're getting two sneak attacks a round not turn is using the bolt first and if it hits they use their action to ready and attack some way to use their reaction to get a sneak attack. Corny but legit.

Any DM worth a pinch could and would probably shut that down. The Rules as Intended is pretty clear, but I do understand that.

[Mongobear]

Any DM worth a pinch could and would probably shut that down. The Rules as Intended is pretty clear, but I do understand that.

This isn't even new as of this UA, it's been possible for all of 5e, you just need a reliable way to gain a Reaction Attack that also triggers Sneak Attack.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Any DM worth a pinch could and would probably shut that down. The Rules as Intended is pretty clear, but I do understand that.

I don't understand what you mean, RAW allows it and Crawford has gone on record that the difference between once per round and once per turn was intentional, a well prepared Rogue is allowed to get a second sneak attack using their reaction.

The issue with this necrotic bolt is that it turns "well prepared" into "if your necrotic bolt hits" where you simply use your cunning action first, and if it hits you ready an attack action to trigger for whatever the first perceivable trigger is after your turn ends (my friend/enemy tries to move or something else that would guarantee a readied attack before they leave your range).

All that said, I can't say for certain whether it's truly "broken op" to have such a reliable way to sneak attack twice a round but my gut instinct is that it being reliable (and very efficient in both action economy and resources) as early as level 3 is a problem even if it's not dealing a completely insane amount of damage.

[stoutstien]

Any DM worth a pinch could and would probably shut that down. The Rules as Intended is pretty clear, but I do understand that.

It Also works with:
Haste
Sentinel feat
Order domain feature

Probably a dozen more I can't think of right now.

[micahaphone]

It Also works with:
Haste
Sentinel feat
Order domain feature

Probably a dozen more I can't think of right now.

I guess my gripe is that it takes 2x sneak attack from "you need teamwork/setup and probably some resource expenditure (spell slots/battlemaster dice)" to "you get 2x sneak attack most rounds, by yourself, with no resource expenditure". It should be a cool moment when your rogue gets to pump out those bonus sneak attacks, not your go-to default.

[Frozenstep]

All that said, I can't say for certain whether it's truly "broken op" to have such a reliable way to sneak attack twice a round but my gut instinct is that it being reliable (and very efficient in both action economy and resources) as early as level 3 is a problem even if it's not dealing a completely insane amount of damage.

Getting sneak attack twice in a turn right now either as a result of a cool teamwork moment between two players, or of multi-classing that comes with reduced sneak attack dice or risky things like hasting yourself.

Getting it free and easy without so much as sacrificing your bonus action feels like it ruins the other cool moments.

[Segev]

I guess my gripe is that it takes 2x sneak attack from "you need teamwork/setup and probably some resource expenditure (spell slots/battlemaster dice)" to "you get 2x sneak attack most rounds, by yourself, with no resource expenditure". It should be a cool moment when your rogue gets to pump out those bonus sneak attacks, not your go-to default.

I believe it's intended that a rogue should usually get sneak attack off with his attacks, however I do agree that getting two of them without having to do anything special, when every other rogue has to actually put some effort into setting them up, is a bit over the top.

It's also athematic for a rogue to just be shooting necrotic blasts; tying it to Cunning Action is a cute attempt to make it "fit," but it really is just tacked on. I'm not even saying a rogue CAN'T do necrotic damage, or maybe shoot necrotic bolts, but just as a front-end subclass ability, it doesn't fit.

Mix this up as a "life thief" merged with some concepts from the 3e Spellthief, perhaps, and you can make a(n un)death-themed rogue with a flavor of taking life to prolong his own, or stealing life from others, or sneaking out of the afterlife, and spice it up with some fitting magical mechanics that would let you fuel a necrotic blast with stolen spell energy or something. But as-is, it would fit the Bard or the Sorcerer way better than the Rogue. A spirit "bloodline" in that you're reborn and have power from your special birth circumstances, or some sort of sweet-talking Orpheus who convinced the powers of death themselves to return you to life with your silver tongue. Nothing even in the fluff really says "rogue."

[Fnissalot]

I believe it's intended that a rogue should usually get sneak attack off with his attacks, however I do agree that getting two of them without having to do anything special, when every other rogue has to actually put some effort into setting them up, is a bit over the top.

It's also athematic for a rogue to just be shooting necrotic blasts; tying it to Cunning Action is a cute attempt to make it "fit," but it really is just tacked on. I'm not even saying a rogue CAN'T do necrotic damage, or maybe shoot necrotic bolts, but just as a front-end subclass ability, it doesn't fit.

Mix this up as a "life thief" merged with some concepts from the 3e Spellthief, perhaps, and you can make a(n un)death-themed rogue with a flavor of taking life to prolong his own, or stealing life from others, or sneaking out of the afterlife, and spice it up with some fitting magical mechanics that would let you fuel a necrotic blast with stolen spell energy or something. But as-is, it would fit the Bard or the Sorcerer way better than the Rogue. A spirit "bloodline" in that you're reborn and have power from your special birth circumstances, or some sort of sweet-talking Orpheus who convinced the powers of death themselves to return you to life with your silver tongue. Nothing even in the fluff really says "rogue."

Readying an action is in some way wasting an action since you might have been able to use the action or reaction anyway for something else. Also, rogues using reactions to deal damage miss using it for evasion and uncanny dodge so you will take a lot more damage in the long run. In addition, as a PC, readying an action is not a sure way to get the reaction off. Your trigger for it might not happen and then you wasted both an action and a reaction.

[Skylivedk]

Readying an action is in some way wasting an action since you might have been able to use the action or reaction anyway for something else. Also, rogues using reactions to deal damage miss using it for evasion and uncanny dodge so you will take a lot more damage in the long run. In addition, as a PC, readying an action is not a sure way to get the reaction off. Your trigger for it might not happen and then you wasted both an action and a reaction.

Evasion doesn't take your reaction and you can make the trigger almost impossible to fail; ie: anyone moves I attack X or nearest enemy.

[BarneyBent]

I feel like the Rune Knight would work better if you could only use one Rune at a time, but could give other party members Runed items. It would make it a more of a support build and limit the extent to which you could power-game the build.

That said, I say that without having done any analysis into what could break if you put Rune features onto a non-Fighter chassis. I’m DMing Storm King’s Thunder though and might roll up an NPC using this and see how it works as a party support.

Also becoming Large twice a day at level 3 is stupid broken for a Martial class. Move it back to level 7 and get rid of Defensive Runes (except for the extra rune feature).

[Fnissalot]

Evasion doesn't take your reaction and you can make the trigger almost impossible to fail; ie: anyone moves I attack X or nearest enemy.

Oh, I missed that part. Good to know. It still conflicts with uncanny dodge.

Don't forget that you want to be able to get your sneak attack of so it should target someone that has another enemy of theirs next to them or you have advantage against.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Oh, I missed that part. Good to know. It still conflicts with uncanny dodge.

Don't forget that you want to be able to get your sneak attack of so it should target someone that has another enemy of theirs next to them or you have advantage against.

The game is designed to make sneak attack almost guaranteed each turn (it's been proven on several fronts that Rogues are intended to benefit from it each turn) and it's not that difficult to set up sneak attack.

It's usually quite difficult to set up getting two sneak attacks in a round unless you invest in a feat or your party spends resources on it (gold, spell slots, character class.)

Uncanny dodge isn't much of a loss for how much you gain.

[Dreadfull]

So rune knight is cool, revived rogue is broken and the ranger is weird but has loads of RP and a bit utility potential.
But is it just me or does the flavor of the rune knight strike anyone else as odd? I don't really get the whole link between giants and runes.
Luckily it's just the fluff that irks me and that can always be changed.

[Luccan]

So rune knight is cool, revived rogue is broken and the ranger is weird but has loads of RP and a bit utility potential.
But is it just me or does the flavor of the rune knight strike anyone else as odd? I don't really get the whole link between giants and runes.
Luckily it's just the fluff that irks me and that can always be changed.

I think it has something to do with Stone Giants and how they practice magic and maybe Storm King's Thunder? I think the link is tenuous at best and nothing about runes screams "has the ability to turn into a giant without runes" to me. I think the subclass could be improved by letting another subclass have giant related features and this one focus in on the whole rune aspect. Runekeeper or whatever that UA was called was cool conceptually and I'd be excited to revisit the concept, but I agree the flavor is off.

[ATHATH]

He's still just a Fighter though. Not like he has a Wish rune, or Simulacrum cheese. He gets big, he hits things, and he has a few utility abilities to help out his party.

You're complaining about Apache Chief getting to punch things when Darkseid is over here disintegrating entire planets and trapping people for eternity.
The problem here is that Rune Knights are getting this stuff at level 3, while Darkseid is getting planet disintegration at level 11-ish.

In other words, the problem is not that Fighters are getting these strong things at all, but rather that they're getting them way too early for how strong they are. I'd recommend adding scaling for each rune based on the Rune Knight's level, so that each rune can still be viable at higher levels (which introducing just level locking but no scaling probably wouldn't let happen) but won't be brokenly good at lower levels.

[Kane0]

Make sure to leave your thoughts on the youtube videos and the playtest surveys!

[Mongobear]

The problem here is that Rune Knights are getting this stuff at level 3, while Darkseid is getting planet disintegration at level 11-ish.

In other words, the problem is not that Fighters are getting these strong things at all, but rather that they're getting them way too early for how strong they are. I'd recommend adding scaling for each rune based on the Rune Knight's level, so that each rune can still be viable at higher levels (which introducing just level locking but no scaling probably wouldn't let happen) but won't be brokenly good at lower levels.

I just don't think it's that strong to warrant the complaints.

Yes, they get cool things. Once. They need to rest to get it again (twice at high level).

They get a "Rage 2.0" + Size increase, but not nearly as resilient as a Barbarian.

They're trading longevity for utility, and again--theyre still just Fighters. They still just do damage. Thats it. This RJ makes them better at that. If anything, I'd say being able to have some utility outside of dealing damage is more troublesome than the damage buffs, but not to an "OP" level.

They're basically Arcane Archers, and nobody calls them OP.

[Kane0]

I just don't think it's that strong to warrant the complaints.

Yes, they get cool things. Once. They need to rest to get it again (twice at high level).

They get a "Rage 2.0" + Size increase, but not nearly as resilient as a Barbarian.

They're trading longevity for utility, and again--theyre still just Fighters. They still just do damage. Thats it. This RJ makes them better at that. If anything, I'd say being able to have some utility outside of dealing damage is more troublesome than the damage buffs, but not to an "OP" level.

They're basically Arcane Archers, and nobody calls them OP.

Better arcane archers, both of which are fighter subclasses. Stepping on other classes aside, subclasses of the same class should at least be equivalent lest we end up with more beserkers and battleragers standing next to totems and zealots.

[AdAstra]

I just don't think it's that strong to warrant the complaints.

Yes, they get cool things. Once. They need to rest to get it again (twice at high level).

They get a "Rage 2.0" + Size increase, but not nearly as resilient as a Barbarian.

They're trading longevity for utility, and again--theyre still just Fighters. They still just do damage. Thats it. This RJ makes them better at that. If anything, I'd say being able to have some utility outside of dealing damage is more troublesome than the damage buffs, but not to an "OP" level.

They're basically Arcane Archers, and nobody calls them OP.

If you think that Rune Knight is in any way comparable to Arcane Archer in any way other than recharging abilities on a short rest, there’s not going to be much discussion. The better rune powers are more powerful than the best special arrows by an order of magnitude, and you get more at 7, 10, and 15. Then you’ve got Giant Might, then the at-will reaction AC boost. The closest thing the AA gets to competing is the bonus action arrow redirect.

[Rukelnikov]

Better arcane archers, both of which are fighter subclasses. Stepping on other classes aside, subclasses of the same class should at least be equivalent lest we end up with more beserkers and battleragers standing next to totems and zealots.

But as long as you have Totems and Zealots, the rest of the subclasses should be made with those in mind, if you balance them around Battleragers, then the subclass landscape will remain the same with those 2 dominating and having few of the other options.

[Kane0]

But as long as you have Totems and Zealots, the rest of the subclasses should be made with those in mind, if you balance them around Battleragers, then the subclass landscape will remain the same with those 2 dominating and having few of the other options.

In an ideal situation they would have been equal in the first place, but if the zealot level is supposed to be the new baseline (say because you were off in the beginning rather than just power creeping) then you should correct those that came before it to match that baseline as well as those that come afterwards. Something that just hasn't been done with 5e and I still maintain should be (and can be so, so easily).
Precedent is a poor excuse for bad design.

[Rukelnikov]

In an ideal situation they would have been equal in the first place, but if the zealot level is supposed to be the new baseline (say because you were off in the beginning rather than just power creeping) then you should correct those that came before it to match that baseline as well as those that come afterwards. Something that just hasn't been done with 5e and I still maintain should be (and can be so, so easily).
Precedent is a poor excuse for bad design.

My point is, it would be bad design to make new subclasses in line with the other subclasses and not the most popular ones, because if you do, you are condemning them from the start.

I agree that old material could (and should) be tuned, but I think the Ranger is the clrearest example that don't want to do that.

[Mongobear]

In an ideal situation they would have been equal in the first place, but if the zealot level is supposed to be the new baseline (say because you were off in the beginning rather than just power creeping) then you should correct those that came before it to match that baseline as well as those that come afterwards. Something that just hasn't been done with 5e and I still maintain should be (and can be so, so easily).
Precedent is a poor excuse for bad design.

The only way that will happen is via a "5.5e" edition.

Look at Revised Ranger, it's been out for like... 3? years and still not an official publication.

We won't see a rebalancing of subclasses without a mini rework like a half-edition totally rebalancing the entire game.

EDIT - This also isn't a new problem. Power creep has existed since 3rd edition, where early classes could barely hold a candle to later publications when every book had something new.

Why play a Fighter or Monk when the Time od Battle classes existed?

Why play Hexblade when Duskblade existed?

[Kane0]

True. In light of the pattern they've been following may as well just make it match the newest baseline and call it a day, leave it to the 'brewers to fix up anything left behind.

Though funnily enough, personally I reckon AA is one of those that need a little buff.