Imagine a World of Psionics

[Kris Moonhand]

I'd like to try flipping the script on the old "psionics vs magic" thing. Imagine, if you will, a world where psionics is the default system in D&D/PF, and classic magic is the interloping supplement or 3rd party option. What parts of the system, or specific spells, would you point out as "OP" or "broken" (assuming you're the kind of person who would do such a thing)? For example:


I don't know about this "Wizard" class, man. I mean, all of their powers scale with manifester level. Here, look at this "Fireball" thing. It's a 3rd level power and goes up to 10d6 with no effort, just because they're a higher level.

[Tvtyrant]

Learning new spells by buying them to get around known spell limits, familiars, epic spell casting, binding things that are stronger then you, shadow magic in general, metamagic reducers/abuse, the numerous broken PRCs.

[Psyren]

You can heal other people? And summon creatures right out of the monster manual? Plz nerf!

...What do you mean you can turn invisible?

[Rynjin]

Basically everything? Casting is pound for pound superior in every regard to Psionics, save that Astral Constructs are way more flexible than Summoned Monsters.

[Kris Moonhand]

You can heal other people? And summon creatures right out of the monster manual? Plz nerf!

...What do you mean you can turn invisible?

"Actually, I can turn other people invisible as well."

Man, I always forget just how bad cloud mind is.


Basically everything? Casting is pound for pound superior in every regard to Psionics, save that Astral Constructs are way more flexible than Summoned Monsters.

You apparently haven't been talking to a lot of the people I've met over the years.

If I may be serious for a moment, there are some areas where psionics is a bit better, like blasting and domination. But I'm here to have fun, not get into the same old arguments, so...

"This spell lets you see the future? Why don't I just hand you my fricken campaign notes at that point?"

[Tvtyrant]

Psionics does allow time travel, which outside Teleport Through Time you can't get as an arcane caster. Nothing on Ice Assassin abuse, but still pretty great.

[Afghanistan]

"Spell slots? So you can just put all of those spell slots for the same spell and just go nova with them? Heck no. Banned."

[Ramza00]

Greater Mindstones from Pathfinder are under priced for 1st and 2nd level Powers and Overpriced for the most expensive powers. For the most expensive powers do a Psicrown instead which is its own cognizance crystal due to the nature of psionic recharge.

But seriously crafting greater mindstones with down time and psychic reformation is cheap and gives you a lot of versatility for there is no limit of them. Sure Uncanny Forethought / Bonded Object is even more versatile but picking all your normal 1st level powers and then have precognition means +2 to all saves and skills. My light and elfsight boost perception, chameleon gives half an invinisibility all day for that cost, astral construct for all psion classes, psionic healing for flexibility, so on and so on.

Psychic Reformation plus crafting your own 1st level greater mindstones makes you a swiss army knife, sure there are better tools for your power points but you always have a semi useful tool even if its not the best.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Basically everything? Casting is pound for pound superior in every regard to Psionics, save that Astral Constructs are way more flexible than Summoned Monsters.

Casting is overall superior to psionics but the above is a bit too far.

Seers can outcompete diviners at all but the highest levels and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them, even then.

As you noted, astral constructs just plain win at the summoning game (not the same as calling).

Psionics is just hands-down better at twisting the action economy.

On the other hand, magic has the undeniable edge in BFC, general buffing, and is uncontested in long-term minion generation and illusion weaving. Screwing with people's minds is about a wash between the two but it's one of the weakest areas of mystical manipulation so that doesn't mean much.


On the topic.

I don't actually have a problem with 99% of the material from either. Even the stuff that is problematic generally needs only minor tweaks to become functional.

For a fun change of pace, try actually running a campaign where psionics is the default and traditional magic is either vanishingly rare or outright banned.

[Aniikinis]

Is anyone gonna talk about how Wish is undeniably broken though? I thought reality revision was bad, but this is just nuts. Not even talking about that Gate spell or Disjunction (Reason numero uno to not use the psionics magic transparency rule they gave us.)

Also what's the difference between arcane and divine magic? They can't be different disciplines, because that's taken up by the "schools of magic" ... Is it like the difference between psion and wilder abilities? But then why have something cripple only one of them?

Oh, and speaking of the schools of magic. Quick question, did the authors think it was a good idea to give people the ability to create hordes of undead? The Necromancy school has nothing to do with necromancy outside of like two or three spells and is more focused on being just a cartoon villain or fairy tale witch with a side of undead minions.

[Ramza00]

Also what's the difference between arcane and divine magic? They can't be different disciplines, because that's taken up by the "schools of magic" ... Is it like the difference between psion and wilder abilities? But then why have something cripple only one of them?

Steamed Power vs Water Wheel. Both moving water but via different methods.

[Rynjin]

On the topic.

I don't actually have a problem with 99% of the material from either. Even the stuff that is problematic generally needs only minor tweaks to become functional.

For a fun change of pace, try actually running a campaign where psionics is the default and traditional magic is either vanishingly rare or outright banned.

I've done so (completely banned variant). It was quite fun, actually.

[Vhaidara]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this "druid" class. Not only does it have most of the problems mentioned above, but it also has not just one, not just two, but THREE major class features that add the entire monster manual line to its resources. Seriously, it has so much flexibility to prepare these niche spells and when it doesn't need them it just turns them into badgers to throw at people's faces.

[Aniikinis]

Steamed Power vs Water Wheel. Both moving water but via different methods.

Yeah, the comparison worked better than I initially thought it would after a few reads.


I'm surprised no one has mentioned this "druid" class. Not only does it have most of the problems mentioned above, but it also has not just one, not just two, but THREE major class features that add the entire monster manual line to its resources. Seriously, it has so much flexibility to prepare these niche spells and when it doesn't need them it just turns them into badgers to throw at people's faces.

Wow that's bad. If my players decide to roll a druid up, I'm gonna make them choose one of the 3 and either take the others off or severely chop them down. Oh, wait, there's a variant ranger with a limited spell list, animal companion, and no shifting power. Huh, I guess they figured that class would be too powerful so gave a toned down version to compensate. ...I wonder how long it's gonna be until the splatbook that gives them the shifting abiltiy comes around?

So, another thing that popped out to me: Why would anyone get a "familiar" over a psicrystal? Only a few of them seem alright but they really just seem like ticking time bombs unless you're paranoid about keeping them safe. I think the best might be the raven since it might be able to use those "wands" since it can hold them and speak the master's language. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, wow. That "holy Word" and similar spells. Sure, a spell in which you just need to buff your caster level a moderate amount and you can auto-win every encounter by no-save paralysing everyone of "not-[pick two alignments]," for the cost of two 7th level spells (and the second alignment's probably redundant). Hell there's two items just in this first set of books that can let you raise it by 5 already, plus that Spell Focus feat for another +1 already! A half-way decent optimiser could easily do better than that!

Lichemaster, no.





Funny story. It took precisely one incident of Holy Word being used against me and our (Evil) party and flat paralysing several of us with absolutely nothing we could do about it for me to go "yeah, no, those spells are getting nerfed hard and the Bead of Karma is flat banned." They are spells you can't use against the PCs by the BBEG (who is likely higher level than them) without a TPK and I sure as heck was not putting them in the PCs hands like that, either.

[MisterKaws]

This whole thread should be in blue text. Every single post.


Is anyone gonna talk about how Wish is undeniably broken though? I thought reality revision was bad, but this is just nuts. Not even talking about that Gate spell or Disjunction (Reason numero uno to not use the psionics magic transparency rule they gave us.)

You haven't even seen Miracle. There's these tiny dudes who learn how to cast those costless straight from their churches. It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

[Kris Moonhand]

One of my players just came to me wanting to play an "Alchemist". It's got all these weird abilities and says it has a "caster" level despite not being a "spellcaster". Is this like how Soulknives and Aegii are psionic despite not being manifesters? That said, it's nice to see that someone in this whole "magic" line decided to not go overboard with their buffing ability. These Alchemists can't use their "extracts" (not spells like other magic classes, why so many terms?) on other people.

[HeraldOfExius]

So, another thing that popped out to me: Why would anyone get a "familiar" over a psicrystal? Only a few of them seem alright but they really just seem like ticking time bombs unless you're paranoid about keeping them safe. I think the best might be the raven since it might be able to use those "wands" since it can hold them and speak the master's language. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The default familiar seems pointless, but there's a feat that lets you replace it with an Imp that can ask a god 6 yes or no questions each week for free. What's even the point of trying to learn anything on your own if you can just call up a god and play 20 questions with the plot?

[Aotrs Commander]

This whole thread should be in blue text. Every single post.

A careful isnpection of my last post might indicate I was actually mostly serious, actually...

[Psyren]

One of my players just came to me wanting to play an "Alchemist". It's got all these weird abilities and says it has a "caster" level despite not being a "spellcaster". Is this like how Soulknives and Aegii are psionic despite not being manifesters? That said, it's nice to see that someone in this whole "magic" line decided to not go overboard with their buffing ability. These Alchemists can't use their "extracts" (not spells like other magic classes, why so many terms?) on other people.

*scoots the Infusion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/infusion/) discovery under the bed with his toe*

Yeah, those other "magic users" are out of control, just buffing everyone all over the place! :smallannoyed:



As you noted, astral constructs just plain win at the summoning game (not the same as calling).


If all you're looking for is a beatstick, then yes, astral constructs win handily. But if what you need is utility or control, summons win there too. Even the strongest AC can't divide up a battlefield with at-will Walls of Ice, or function as an emergency healer/raise dead for the party, banish other summons, turn the party invisible etc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If all you're looking for is a beatstick, then yes, astral constructs win handily. But if what you need is utility or control, summons win there too. Even the strongest AC can't divide up a battlefield with at-will Walls of Ice, or function as an emergency healer/raise dead for the party, banish other summons, turn the party invisible etc.*Cough*GreenboundSummoning*Cough*

[Tvtyrant]

*Cough*GreenboundSummoning*Cough*

Also the glory of the Malconvoker. I think vancian can take it due to the endless splat support, but SRD vs SRD the Psion is better at it.

[Aniikinis]

You haven't even seen Miracle. There's these tiny dudes who learn how to cast those costless straight from their churches. It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

Oh wow, how did I pass that over. That's even worse.


The default familiar seems pointless, but there's a feat that lets you replace it with an Imp that can ask a god 6 yes or no questions each week for free. What's even the point of trying to learn anything on your own if you can just call up a god and play 20 questions with the plot?

That's just dumb. Why even bother playing the game at that point?

I honestly don't know what they were doing with the "evocation" school. Why didn't they just base the lower ones off of energy ray and not need like 5 different spells to do the same job? The same could be said for most of the higher ones too, now that I think about it, save that it could key off of energy bolt/burst/wall/retort/wave. But then again I guess that works as kind of a limiting factor since they have to deal with slots rather than points.

[Ramza00]

One of my players just came to me wanting to play an "Alchemist". It's got all these weird abilities and says it has a "caster" level despite not being a "spellcaster". Is this like how Soulknives and Aegii are psionic despite not being manifesters? That said, it's nice to see that someone in this whole "magic" line decided to not go overboard with their buffing ability. These Alchemists can't use their "extracts" (not spells like other magic classes, why so many terms?) on other people.

It is own weird little thing something like an Artificer from 3.5 but also not like an Artificer or Divine or Arcane.

Alchemist make their own daily "items" which are spells but not spells (like the Artificer) and they take a 1 minute time to prepare like preparing magic to create the item, and then a 1 standard action to activate (similar to drinking a potion.) There are ways to make these Alchemist spells work on other people Infusion Discovery, Archetypes, and so on.

-----

I am not ready to post it and get feedback but I am trying to work on a Psion / Investigator gestalt using e8 rules, one that is using the Antiquarian archetype for the Investigator. Investigators are a hybrid class between Alchemist and Rogue mixing and matching both losing some things but also gaining some things.

Antiquarian is an archetype for Investigator that makes you into a person who can do 6th level Wizard Spells and 6th level Alchemist Extracts but with the same spell slots per day. It is a power increase that is slight but also has some downsides for some of the Alchemist discoveries no longer work for it is not Alchemy, and some of the Wizard discoveries are not available for you are not a wizard but instead a person who is in between the two. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



So, another thing that popped out to me: Why would anyone get a "familiar" over a psicrystal? Only a few of them seem alright but they really just seem like ticking time bombs unless you're paranoid about keeping them safe. I think the best might be the raven since it might be able to use those "wands" since it can hold them and speak the master's language. But I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Sometimes it is beneficial to have an "organic" creature instead of a construct and sometimes the construct immunities are superior. I am talking stuff like the Vitalist Collective. While a psicrystal benefits from Fast Healing, it does not benefit from Healing Subschool Spells and Powers under Paizo / Dreamscarred rules.

In addition Familiars have Archetypes and thus with the Valet archetype you can craft twice as fast (which works real well Psychic Reformation, swap crafting feats for non crafting days, swap powers and spells for crafting then swap back for normal use.) If I understand the rules correctly with the Valet Archetype you double your crafting per day via using two people. Normally you can craft only 1000 gp per one person but you can make the crafting DC higher by 5 or something (this is from memory) to get 2000 gp of work done in a single day. Thus over two people that is 4000 gp of work done in a single day. (There are also rules to craft less than a 1000 gp a day in a day you also adventure but I am not going to look up those rules right now.)

Familiars are also possibly better able to wear magic items and so on without the master of the Psicrystal taking the feat Superior Psicrystal. Magic Items can do nice things with its actions like cast spells from wands, activate magic items that change the battlefield or buff as a standard action and so on.


Oh wow, how did I pass that over. That's even worse.



That's just dumb. Why even bother playing the game at that point?

I honestly don't know what they were doing with the "evocation" school. Why didn't they just base the lower ones off of energy ray and not need like 5 different spells to do the same job? The same could be said for most of the higher ones too, now that I think about it, save that it could key off of energy bolt/burst/wall/retort/wave. But then again I guess that works as kind of a limiting factor since they have to deal with slots rather than points.

There was a person before Pathfinder psionics with a werewolf familiar who as houserules did that with the 3.5 power set in a word document. Lycanthromancer or something was his username.

But yeah his logic is like Energy Ray should be a level 1 power and Energy Push which used to be a 2nd level Power is now an augment for Energy Ray and so on.. now that same Energy Ray Bullrushes and not just does damage why call it Energy Push?

[Bohandas]

Look up the old Dark Sun campaign setting

[Kris Moonhand]

I get the feeling some people aren't getting the joke...

[False God]

I always kinda wanted to run a game where every casting class used the spell-point variant system. Yeah there'd have to be a lot of other adjustments, but I just find the point system so much more intuitive and fluid.

[Bohandas]

The fact that you get caster-level dependent benefits free of charge; instead of paying extra for them like with psionics

[goodpeople25]

Did no one bring up that magic replaces displays with "components"? Apparently most of their "spells" require you to make shadow puppets and recite beat poetry in order to work, (There's also stuff like juggling bat poop while you do that but I think you can easily get around that so who knows why they bothered) sure you can remove them but I believe it requires using freakin metapsionicsmagic (I'd go more into that but it oddly varies between classes so is not a can of worms I want to open) instead of a concentration check. (Though of course they still nicked the skill for losing spells)

Is this seriously supposed to balance magic? That's cute but it seems like all it really does is be a very silly restriction that limits character concepts.

[Ramza00]

Did no one bring up that magic replaces displays with "components"? Apparently most of their "spells" require you to make shadow puppets and recite beat poetry in order to work, (There's also stuff like juggling bat poop while you do that but I think you can easily get around that so who knows why they bothered) sure you can remove them but I believe it requires using freakin metapsionicsmagic (I'd go more into that but it oddly varies between classes so is not a can of worms I want to open) instead of a concentration check. (Though of course they still nicked the skill for losing spells)

Is this seriously supposed to balance magic? That's cute but it seems like all it really does is be a very silly restriction that limits character concepts.
Yes beware, the Psionics who manifest powers while suppressing their displays with a concentration check, leaving no evidence to others that you were affected with Psionic Magic.

Imagine a "Thor like Figure" meeting you for the first time, this burly Norse God is an outsider to you. And during this meeting he is actually a Aasimar Telepath who subtly cast Psionic Charm and Psionic Suggestion on you when he was also doing other things like being loud, hugging you without permission and violating your personal space, followed by offering you a drink of the fine Ale in this bar.

Suddenly you are swept away by this "Free Spirit" energy for even though Thor is loud he is also kind of fun, and suddenlyyou are doing things you would not normally do without this encouragement of this Aasimar NPC.

And nobody is the wiser. :smallamused: for the Telepath Aasimar suppressed their display. The DM just railroaded you and you did not realize it till its too late. (Or vice versa with you and the DM's NPCs.)

[Kris Moonhand]

Seriously, Ramza... go away if you're not going to pay attention to the theme of the thread...

Anyway, what's up with Craft "Wondrous" Item (the magic version of Craft Universal Item) being able to make these "pearls of power" (the magic version of cognizance crystals). They should obviously require their own feat, just like Craft Cognizance Crystal!

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes beware, the Psionics who manifest powers while suppressing their displays with a concentration check, leaving no evidence to others that you were affected with Psionic Magic.

Imagine a "Thor like Figure" meeting you for the first time, this burly Norse God is an outsider to you. And during this meeting he is actually a Aasimar Telepath who subtly cast Psionic Charm and Psionic Suggestion on you when he was also doing other things like being loud, hugging you without permission and violating your personal space, followed by offering you a drink of the fine Ale in this bar.

Suddenly you are swept away by this "Free Spirit" energy for even though Thor is loud he is also kind of fun, and suddenlyyou are doing things you would not normally do without this encouragement of this Aasimar NPC.

And nobody is the wiser. :smallamused: for the Telepath Aasimar suppressed their display. The DM just railroaded you and you did not realize it till its too late. (Or vice versa with you and the DM's NPCs.)

Ramza00, er, I think you might be missed the joke which is the point of the thread a bit, my friend; which was to humorously complain about all the ways magic is broken when compared to psionics as a facetious mirror to the people that complained that psionics is overpowered compared to magic, viewed from the angle that psionics were core and magic came in, I dunno, the Expanded Magic Handbook or something.[/Explaining The Joke]

[Particle_Man]

Man, just when they *finally* got Create Astral Construct under control by only allowing a manifester to have one of them around at a time (ok two with a specific prestige class) out comes these "spellcasters" that can have multiple summoned critters, round after round! I thought they just forgot to add the errata to the supplement, but then notices that these spellcasters can even summon 1d4+1 lesser critters simultaneously in the same round! BROKEN!11!!!1111!!1

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Man, just when they *finally* got Create Astral Construct under control by only allowing a manifester to have one of them around at a time (ok two with a specific prestige class) out comes these "spellcasters" that can have multiple summoned critters, round after round! I thought they just forgot to add the errata to the supplement, but then notices that these spellcasters can even summon 1d4+1 lesser critters simultaneously in the same round! BROKEN!11!!!1111!!1Nah, that's fine. They don't have wilders that can make/summon/whatever singular really big ones, so creating lots of little ones is okay.

Granted, I'm not sure whose retarded idea it was that making huge ones is prevented by making players unable to make multiple smaller ones, but it's all good, since magic can do that, too.

Wait, I don't think that makes any sense at all. You might be right.

[AvatarVecna]

So is this thread just "complaining about high-tier things, except even more so because core is now a splat"? Like ueah I guess half the broken BS in core would look even worse than it already does if your idea of "as powerful/versatile as it gets" was psion.

Honestly though what'd probably be worse is on the non-manifesting side of things. Can you imagine how much whining there'd be about Tome Of Battle if the standard for non-manifesters wasn't barbarian and rogue, but rather Soulknife?

EDIT:

"Heads up guys, one of the new classes looks like some LotR fanboy jerked off on the page - closest comparison is gonna be soulknife, except it's just better in basically every way. So, they give up 1 HP per level, and have a poor Fort save, but basically everything else is better: not only do they have basically every cool skill in the game on their class list, they also get more skill points than every other base class in the game...heck, every other class period. Oh and you know how you kinda have to poke around traps using your wits and your items to try and deal with them like a puzzle, or face the consequences, and even Disable Device ranks cross-class couldn't deal with the nastier ones? Yeah this class can just...disarm them with a check. Pretty quick, too, if you invest in that."

"And that's not even getting in on this frickin' backstab feature. So where Soulknife has to spend a move action to get a handful of d8s to a single attack? Well the Aint I A Stinker class doesn't require an action to activate it, it just requires tactical advantage to trigger...and it's really easy to set that up. So not only are you getting it on multiple attacks per round, and not only is the individual damage just flat-out better (1d6 when you have nothing, 2d6 when you have 1d8, 10d6 when you have 5d8), but the "type restriction" on it is basically identical. I guess Psychic Strike works on plants and elementals where Sneak Attack doesn't, but then Sneak Attack works on people who get MA immunity via a power or item. It's absolute 100% bull**** and WotC should be ashamed for publishing such nonsense. Now let's move on to the features they get after level 1, because yes there's more of course there's more!"

"Starting at level 2, they can be...just...totally fine when they get blasted by an AoE. If they make the save, they take no damage. And since there's always a chance to roll at nat 20, I guess a not-insignificant portion of every thieves guild could survive a nuclear blast. And they can upgrade it later if they wanna, where even a successful save only deals half damage, I guess cuz screw you right? Oh and also they're immune to being surprised or flanked, sort of. And past a certain point, if you as a DM wanna knock this ****er down a peg by throwing another Rogue at him, the DM rogue needs to be a lot higher level or that Sneak Attack isn't gonna work, because heaven forbid you be vulnerable to your own broken bull****."

"And the special abilities! Ignore improved evasion nonsense, let's talk about getting a free save against any mindscrewery. The base class doesn't even have a good Will save, what is this feature even doing here, they clearly don't need it, and taking it just rewards you twice as much for any investment you make fixing that low save. Another one lets them hand out Strength damage like candy, so even if for whatever reason you haven't drowned under the tide of d6s they're throwing at you every round, it's entirely possible that your monster or BBEG manifester is just gonna end up literally too weak to lift a finger. But none of that can compare to the worst option, where you can get a feat...yeah okay that doesn't sound bad, but because of how poorly-worded it is compared to every other bonus feat in the game, it appears to not require you to meet prereqs. And all of this in service of letting Bilbo Baggins be an actual badass rather than just a lucky normal hobbit. They're ruining the game with this wankery!"

[Dr_Dinosaur]

On the other hand, Soulknife and PsyWar being the "core" martials means folks are probably less upset by ToB's maneuver system, and more underwhelmed by the comparatively "boring" Fighter and Barbarian

[AvatarVecna]

On the other hand, Soulknife and PsyWar being the "core" martials means folks are probably less upset by ToB's maneuver system, and more underwhelmed by the comparatively "boring" Fighter and Barbarian

As my edit kinda goes on in regards to, rogue would probably be the "OMG so broken" from the point of view of "soulknife sets the standard". Although I actually think the other non-casters, particularly Fighter and Monk, would end up a bit better off in this theoretical game: Fighter Bonus Feats outside of core tend to be more worth taking than the ones in Core (Weapon Focus line, Toughness, most everything needed for Whirlwind Attack), and so because "Weapon Specialization" isn't setting the standard for Fighter, non-core Fighter feats would be allowed to be decent, maybe even good. Monk would probably face a similar buff (if nothing else, it'd probably end up being a psychic warrior variant/twist, more akin to how beguiler and warmage were twists on the sorcerer - not necessarily better than its "parent class", but the end result would still be far ahead of where real-world monk ended up).

[Luccan]

Ok, obviously magic is weird and the "change your powersspells every day" feature is ridiculous, but like... why even have a class like the sorcerer if magic is supposed to be this different thing? Was it to bridge the gap by offering spells but a limited number known? Just seems kind of pointless when psionics already works similarly and especially Wilder, which was already serving the "I have in-born powers that make me edgy and mysterious" hat.

I might allow wizards with a couple more school restrictions, since they at least have to do some work for their spells. Clerics and druids are right out, they take any tension out of an adventure (seriously, they make HP loss pointless and at higher levels can basically ignore ability damage/drain). I guess I'll let people play sorcerers, but again what's the point?

Rangers are totally a rip-off of one of the characters from Ring Lords or whatever those books were called. I wonder if Psions of the Coast can get sued for that?

Oh, and Bards are stupid. They're magic because they can play the lute really well? What idiot thought that was a good idea?

[Kris Moonhand]

Hey now, don't diss the Bard! It definitely scratches an itch that needs scratching. The closest thing we have to a music-based character in psionics is the Virtuoso archetype for Highlord. I can't believe it took so long for someone to come up with the idea. It's just too bad it's in such a wonky subsystem... I think it needs a few tweaks to make sense of why your "inspiring music" only affects allies. Something like a... "thought-song" or similar, and just use the collective rules from Vitalist (or the worldthought network from Society Mind, for you 3.5 folks). Then give it mainly telepathy and psychokinesis powers (maybe limit to descriptor for psychokinesis?) and a smattering of powers from other disciplines and I'd say you'd have a class worth playing.

I don't have too much of a problem with Clerics and Druids healing. Their healing [S]powers spells (I'm never gonna get used to that, I swear) are a bit more powerful than most of the stuff you can get out of psychometabolism, that's true. (2d8+ML, max 10, for a 2nd level spell vs body adjustment's straight 1d12) But they have no range, and unlike Vitalists or Egoist Psions, no way to easily share their healing. No, it's the intense amount of buffing, debuffing, and summoning these guys have access to that bothers me. I haven't looked into too much of it, but this "polymorph" thing looks pretty intense. I can hear the min-maxers sharpening their pencils as we speak...

Going on to the Rogue, I hadn't even looked at the mundane classes. Like... Evasion is an (Ex) ability? In what world are you living, designers? You probably wouldn't like the version we got in PF, either. They removed a lot of the sneak attack immunities over here (now it's just mainly oozes, elementals, and incorporeal creatures). Then again, the Soulknife's psystrike got buffed a bit, so now only mindless creatures are immune. Knife to the Soul still sucks it against mind-affecting immune critters, though.

[JMS]

Continuing the PF version, I can’t believe Fighter is a thing. It’s horrible compared to the Aegis, given that the Aegis gets more “feats”, which are often stronger, can pick up other tricks, and has some out of combat tools, along with a half-way decent skill list, and 4 per level.

[Segev]

Continuing the PF version, I can’t believe Fighter is a thing. It’s horrible compared to the Aegis, given that the Aegis gets more “feats”, which are often stronger, can pick up other tricks, and has some out of combat tools, along with a half-way decent skill list, and 4 per level.

I think I read somewhere that the Fighter was originally going to be to the Alchemist what the Psywarrior is to the Psion: an item-focused character that turned its specialty towards magic weaponry and fighting. But somewhere along the line, they decided making dedicated magic item types just for one class, or restricting the best items to one class, was somehow overpowering that class, and went too far the other way. Which is why we have this overly-weak thing that seems to think that specializing in mundane items is great because they can use magic items, too, and forgot entirely to have those magic items do anything more for it than for others that have actual class features.

[Psyren]

I think I read somewhere that the Fighter was originally going to be to the Alchemist what the Psywarrior is to the Psion: an item-focused character that turned its specialty towards magic weaponry and fighting. But somewhere along the line, they decided making dedicated magic item types just for one class, or restricting the best items to one class, was somehow overpowering that class, and went too far the other way. Which is why we have this overly-weak thing that seems to think that specializing in mundane items is great because they can use magic items, too, and forgot entirely to have those magic items do anything more for it than for others that have actual class features.

I find it a bit hard to believe that Fighter, or any other core class (except maybe Druid), was envisioned as anything but "3.5 version+." Their main goal with the CRB was just proving that it was possible to continue 3.5, and release something close enough to it so that all the ongoing 3.5 campaigns at the time (and there would have been many, many more than there are today) could transition to PF without starting from scratch.

[upho]

Hey now, don't diss the Bard! It definitely scratches an itch that needs scratching. The closest thing we have to a music-based character in psionics is the Virtuoso archetype for Highlord. I can't believe it took so long for someone to come up with the idea.This. As much as I think most of this new "magic" subsystem plain sucks and I'm utterly dumbfounded how so many people at WotC and Paizo could possibly miss these veritable piles of blatantly obvious broken options, I have to say I agree that the Bard class stands out as an actually really cool concept. Same goes for its angrier PF sibling the Skald which really rocks. Literally. Like, you can actually get to play this kind of mad axe-grinder (https://youtu.be/ozmjV_VLYyo) (replace guitar with medieval string instrument of choice) and get your entire party almost as angry as you are! The concepts are simply awesome. Though I agree the implementations and many of the specific mechanics are wonky and feel needlessly complicated and contrived.


It's just too bad it's in such a wonky subsystem... I think it needs a few tweaks to make sense of why your "inspiring music" only affects allies. Something like a... "thought-song" or similar, and just use the collective rules from Vitalist (or the worldthought network from Society Mind, for you 3.5 folks). Then give it mainly telepathy and psychokinesis powers (maybe limit to [sonic] descriptor for psychokinesis?) and a smattering of powers from other disciplines and I'd say you'd have a class worth playing.Ha ha! Seriously, the first thing that struck me was why they didn't use the collective mechanics instead. They're proven to work, people are familiar with them, and they get around the whole "everybody hears the buffing rockstar"-issue with its sorta already built-in "Bluetooth-to-bunch-of-earplugs"-thing. Sure, it may not have quite as bombastic and flamboyant in-game potential as blasting out your newly composed "party fighting theme song" at max volume "wall-of-Marshal-stacks-arena-concert"-style, but it would be a whole lot reasonable IMO. It's like the Bard/Skald perform mechanics were designed by the new guy on the dev team who felt he had to reinvent the wheel just to prove he's not lazily recycling stuff written by his senior colleagues. :smallannoyed:

But when put into perspective, IMO those shortcomings are about as noticeable as a fart in a pigsty when put next to the unprecedented power creep leap and idiocies in the other "magic" options. Seriously, I really wanted to like this subsystem and I actually was excited about the first sneak previews, and I truly think I've given it more than fair shot, trying to not let all the angry rants and cries of "B-R-O-K-E-N" from the online echo-chamber color my opinion. But I can't help but agree with the complaints after having tried it out in several sessions at different levels in both 3.5 and PF. Some of the system's many flaws and plain stupid effects I encountered first hand as GM include:


3.5 game at levels 3-5 and 11-15
Party includes a Sorcerer (seemingly intended to be the "spell caster" wilder equivalent) and a Wizard (yeah, the stupid "choose powers known each day"-class), both played by experienced and system-savvy players. The Sorcerer decides on a dragon-themed concept using lots of meta-magic (metapsionic stuff for "casters") tricks, starting with a power progression already bumped beyond the normal due to being some kind of slightly cheesy but fitting dragon-wrought venerable kobold, and opts to take enter the Incantationtrixer PrC ASAP and dips a few levels of the (oddly named) Initiate of the Seven-Layered Veils(?) PrC for more power versatility. Things quickly start going south, with the wrinkly old kobold crone soon blasting everything in sight into oblivion with boosted "ray spells", each manifesting eventually launching multiple rays, each piling on ludicrous amounts of fire or Int damage and ends with insane stuff like the wings of flurries spell which just plain annihilates every enemy in sight. All while she's being an invisible, Tiny flying hyper-vital (one of those dragon templates and more spells) super-Dex-y fantasy version of a micro jet fighter with impossibly high initiative and AC, on top of being practically invulnerable to any kind of attack due an absolutely insanely stupid low level spell called wings of cover.

Meanwhile, the Wizard who has decided to go for some kind of "power by proxy"-concept using the many OP spells which can be used to buff and summon allies and generally just pull stupid stuff - like gigantic (permanent!) iron walls - out of your hat, typically by doing a bit of break-dance, mumbling gibberish and tossing around some bat poo or similarly weirdly specific things (conjuration school, IIRC). He wrecks encounters from early on with bonkers low level AoE powers like sleep (entire room of goblins are out before they even get to act), and then continues by granting increasingly broken buffs to the entire party (hasty, overland flight and mass invisibility being some of the more memorable ones), ending the game at 15th level with his standard go-to pre-combat buff combo including turning the party's two melee frontliners into frikkin' War Trolls! :smallmad: Wizards can apparently use the mentioned horribly broken polymorphosis spell on any willing target... :smallsigh: By this time, we've all had enough and decide to start over in PF instead.


PF game at levels 5-7 and 13-14
Party includes two Summoners, one of the Master Summoner (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo-summoner-archetypes/master-summoner/) archetype and one of the very different Synthesist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo-summoner-archetypes/synthesist/) archetype, their players being the two guys who got seriously bored feeling redundant as melee frontliners in the 3.5 game and have apparently heard online rumors the new Summoner class kicks major butt. And it sure does, but mostly in a very bad broken way. Just read up on the Master Summoner and note their summon monster SLA. Now imagine one with good buff powers (such as the mentioned hasty), summoning feats (like Augment Summoning and Evolved Summon Monster) and multiple rods of giant summoning (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/rod-of-giant-summoning/) (of course crafted by the summoner). Yeah, he soon entered every fight with multiple hyper-buffed super-strong super-sized pouncing summoned monsters, while his eidolon was a pretty fantastic skill monkey with several iterations of the Skilled evolution. Seriously, I swear this guy could have soloed published APs from no later than 6th level, and would've done so laughably easily without breaking a sweat by 13th level.

The other Summoner, the Synthesist, was a quite different form of broken, becoming an insane melee powerhouse by "wearing" the class' OP pet called an eidolon as a living power armor. So Huge base size (up to Colossal with his dorje of metamorphosis), extremely high ability scores across the board (can dump physical stats) including an insanely high Str (+16 bonus(!) just from the size increase evolution), fantastic reach, permanent high speed flight, awesome defenses, grab and even swallow whole monster abilities. Even the most and perfectly pimped up psy-war melee monster build would feel tiny and redundant in the same party as this guy. But at least he didn't have the same broken action economy as the Master Summoner and was a bit limited by not having any bonus feats to further boost his combat prowess with. I'm scared just thinking about what this archetype likely allows for with some creative multiclassing and a bit more optimization though. The sheer numbers power is out of this world. On a more positive note, the Wizard player in the 3.5 game tried out the surprisingly sensible and fun Bloodrager (sorta psy-war-ish melee brute with full bab and only 4th level powers), while the 3.5 Sorcerer player rocked the enemies' socks off as a Skald.


Going on to the Rogue, I hadn't even looked at the mundane classes. Like... Evasion is an (Ex) ability? In what world are you living, designers? You probably wouldn't like the version we got in PF, either. They removed a lot of the sneak attack immunities over here (now it's just mainly oozes, elementals, and incorporeal creatures). Then again, the Soulknife's psystrike got buffed a bit, so now only mindless creatures are immune. Knife to the Soul still sucks it against mind-affecting immune critters, though.
I've decided to allow the Bard, Skald and Bloodrager in my games, but the sick brokenness of especially the "magic" classes has made me lose my curiosity and much hope for this new batch of options. And it seems this Rouge class is just yet another new option on the same OP theme. :smallfrown:

My only conclusion is that both the WotC and Paizo devs have simply lost it or that they've decided this is supposed to be the game's new power level for some weird reason. To me it just stinks of cheap short-term money grabbing, sacrificing game balance, working quality designs and good name to cheat a few unknowing players off of a few quick bucks before the next edition is released.

[Segev]

I find it a bit hard to believe that Fighter, or any other core class (except maybe Druid), was envisioned as anything but "3.5 version+." Their main goal with the CRB was just proving that it was possible to continue 3.5, and release something close enough to it so that all the ongoing 3.5 campaigns at the time (and there would have been many, many more than there are today) could transition to PF without starting from scratch.

*cough*
I was riffing off the theme of the thread. I agree with you, Psyren, for PF as written. In fact, I think PF's later options for the fighter go a long way to at least making it have some interesting choices, even if it doesn't actually help it keep up with other classes.

But my riff here was on the theme of "Psionics came first; magic is the supplement." Perhaps stretching that to include non-magic classes like Fighter as implied to be released similarly-timed was ill-conceived or at least poorly explained. But the joke was to evaluate the "new" class of Fighter and why its final released version sucked compared to the "comparable" class of Psychic Warrior. I was also borrowing from AD&D design, where the fighter was stand-out due to legitimately having exclusive ability to use certain high-powered magic weapons (mostly intelligent swords) which let a figther PC more than keep up with most magic-users.

The joke here was that this is my in-character hypothesis for what the Fighter was supposed to be, using the Alchemist as the parallel class the way Psywarrior is a Psion-gish, but that redesign of other things to make formerly-exclusive Fighter perks (like AD&D's exclusive access to the best magic items) now universally available and a denaturing of Fighter features without reworking them to make up for the losses led to the weak, nonmagical, nonpsionic thing that this imaginary world got along with the release of a magic subsystem.

I mean, Psyren, come on, Fighter isn't even a magic class. It doesn't use magic OR psionics! How can it be a viable release with this new magic supplement if it doesn't even use the attendant subsystem!? Something got stripped out, or maybe it was split up from the RAnger or the Paladin and they forgot to put more into it.

You know, like what happened to the Divine Mind in the real world.

[HeraldOfExius]

I mean, Psyren, come on, Fighter isn't even a magic class. It doesn't use magic OR psionics! How can it be a viable release with this new magic supplement if it doesn't even use the attendant subsystem!? Something got stripped out, or maybe it was split up from the RAnger or the Paladin and they forgot to put more into it.

You know, like what happened to the Divine Mind in the real world.

Well, they went through the hassle of replacing power points with "slots" for magic classes, but then they released the Warlock in Complete Arcane, and it doesn't even use the slots. They can't even release an entire book about magic without shoving an entirely new subsystem into it.

[ShurikVch]

Pity it's a joke thread - there are some things about it...

Besides all aforementioned, there also was "Mind Lords of Talaron" article in Dragon #281 which tells story about Talaire - Humans who lived at some plane, until once upon a time Illithids came to Talaron.
Talaire fought a war against Illithids - and won it.
But retreating Mind Flayers - out of spite - killed their sun, and Talaire were forced to evacuate to another plane (Prime Material Plane).
Talaire have no magic - just psionics
And their psionics comes with "Psionics are Different" rule at full strength


But the most useful psionics may be in the Midnight campaign setting: magic in it is stomped to the dirt, so psionics may, actually, shine.
The history of the world may be figuratively described as "Sauron won, kicked all competitors out, and set impassable barrier to don't let nobody in or out"
Firstly, divine magic of this world is reserved to Evil NPC
(Cleric, Ranger, Paladin, and Adept classes don't exist in this setting; Druid is arcane PrC)
Secondly, to cast arcane spells, character need to take one feat (which allow to cast cantrips), plus some more feats - each one for a single school of magic
Evocation and Conjuration were divided to Lesser and Greater schools. Greater Conjuration gives access to Calling and Summoning spells (and Teleportation is unavailable regardless)
But even if you will take all necessary feats, you still will be severely limited at what you able to cast: in order to cast a spell, you need to spent amount of energy equal to the spell's level
Amount of your energy is equal to the bonus of your primary spellcasting ability - and it's it: at 20th level, you would be able to cast in a day, likely, one 7th-or-lower-level spell and handful of cantrips
Sure, you can cast above your daily energy limit, but it will cost you ability damage - Con (if you're Living Creature), Cha (if Undead), or Str (if non-living Construct)
This damage can't be prevented in any way, nor can it be restored by magical means - only by rest
Energy cost may be reduced either via ritual (10 minutes minimum, thus - not viable for combat), or by owning a Spell Talismans (which reduces energy cost by 1 for a single spell, and doesn't stacks)
Since the book neither presents new rules for psionics, nor says "no psionics in Midnight", it may be optimistically supposed psionics works just as usual :smallamused:



I mean, Psyren, come on, Fighter isn't even a magic class. It doesn't use magic OR psionics! How can it be a viable release with this new magic supplement if it doesn't even use the attendant subsystem!? Something got stripped out, or maybe it was split up from the RAnger or the Paladin and they forgot to put more into it.Joke on you: Paladin and Ranger were subclasses of Fighter in 1E!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm not sure about these "prepared" casters. I just don't think the flexibility of being able to change your spells every day (and oh gods, don't get me started on the bookkeeping that must involve) can compete with the moment to moment flexibility that the "spontaneous" casters have. And some of those even have access to every power their class does, at all times!

Mark my words, it's these "fixed list" casters that will come out on top of this weird new system. Second place probably goes to Sorcerers, who at least get to spontaneous cast even if they're limited in options, and then at the bottom of the heap you'll have the book-keeping apocalypse that is clerics, wizards, and other prepared casters.

Except for maybe Druids, because my god those class features.

[Psyren]

*cough*
I was riffing off the theme of the thread. I agree with you, Psyren, for PF as written. In fact, I think PF's later options for the fighter go a long way to at least making it have some interesting choices, even if it doesn't actually help it keep up with other classes.

But my riff here was on the theme of "Psionics came first; magic is the supplement." Perhaps stretching that to include non-magic classes like Fighter as implied to be released similarly-timed was ill-conceived or at least poorly explained. But the joke was to evaluate the "new" class of Fighter and why its final released version sucked compared to the "comparable" class of Psychic Warrior. I was also borrowing from AD&D design, where the fighter was stand-out due to legitimately having exclusive ability to use certain high-powered magic weapons (mostly intelligent swords) which let a figther PC more than keep up with most magic-users.

The joke here was that this is my in-character hypothesis for what the Fighter was supposed to be, using the Alchemist as the parallel class the way Psywarrior is a Psion-gish, but that redesign of other things to make formerly-exclusive Fighter perks (like AD&D's exclusive access to the best magic items) now universally available and a denaturing of Fighter features without reworking them to make up for the losses led to the weak, nonmagical, nonpsionic thing that this imaginary world got along with the release of a magic subsystem.

I mean, Psyren, come on, Fighter isn't even a magic class. It doesn't use magic OR psionics! How can it be a viable release with this new magic supplement if it doesn't even use the attendant subsystem!? Something got stripped out, or maybe it was split up from the RAnger or the Paladin and they forgot to put more into it.

You know, like what happened to the Divine Mind in the real world.

Even mentally putting your joke in blue text I didn't get it, so I addressed it straight.

[Thunder999]

That polymorph thing is crazy, sure you can't use metamorphic transfer with it, but it can target the fighter, as in the guy who actually has good BAB and melee feats, that's just crazy. To say nothing of shapechange, who thought that making shapechange (which is basically greater metamorphosis) last longer and only need a reusable focus was a good idea, especially since it seems just about anyone can get it on their list rather than just egoists.

[vasilidor]

One of my players just came to me wanting to play an "Alchemist". It's got all these weird abilities and says it has a "caster" level despite not being a "spellcaster". Is this like how Soulknives and Aegii are psionic despite not being manifesters? That said, it's nice to see that someone in this whole "magic" line decided to not go overboard with their buffing ability. These Alchemists can't use their "extracts" (not spells like other magic classes, why so many terms?) on other people.

actually, there is a talent they can take at second level to share them, making them the best single target buffer available. the character they want to buff does have to use their own action to do so though. it is called infusion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Guys... Guys. Have you seen the absurdity that is the arcanist?

Munchkin player: "I want the overkill strategic versatility of preparing spells from a book and the tactical versatility of casting them spontaneously in the day."

Paizo, presenting arcanist: "We got you, fam."

How busted is this? Even erudites aren't that ridiculously flexible. :smallconfused:

[JMS]

Guys... Guys. Have you seen the absurdity that is the arcanist?

Munchkin player: "I want the overkill strategic versatility of preparing spells from a book and the tactical versatility of casting them spontaneously in the day."

Paizo, presenting arcanist: "We got you, fam."

How busted is this? Even erudites aren't that ridiculously flexible. :smallconfused:

Well, there also is the Spell to Power Erudite, and that just.... No downsides, get every arcane spell!! And all the psionic powers. (At least the arcanist doesn't get expanded knowledge)
At least they got a bit of cross compatability.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, there also is the Spell to Power Erudite, and that just.... No downsides, get every arcane spell!! And all the psionic powers. (At least the arcanist doesn't get expanded knowledge)
At least they got a bit of cross compatability.Note that it's entirely possible to turn "divine spells" (so weird!) into "arcane spells" (*shudder*) through multitudinous means. Those weird "metallic" and "chromatic" dragons tend to have "cleric spells" as "arcane spells," and that fantasy noire campaign setting Eberron has the Child of Eberron dragon archetype to give them druid spells, as well.

(So weird!)

[AvatarVecna]

Note that it's entirely possible to turn "divine spells" (so weird!) into "arcane spells" (*shudder*) through multitudinous means. Those weird "metallic" and "chromatic" dragons tend to have "cleric spells" as "arcane spells," and that fantasy noire campaign setting Eberron has the Child of Eberron dragon archetype to give them druid spells, as well.

(So weird!)

Read the sorcerer closely. It doesn't have to draw from the sor/wiz list, it just "usually" does. That earlier person who said the sorcerer would probably be second behind the fixed-lists might be wrong, if only for the ability to draw from basically any list! Small mercies this new subsystem isn't really manifesting, or it'd be even worse with them stealing powers higgledy piggledy.

[Prime32]

Note that it's entirely possible to turn "divine spells" (so weird!) into "arcane spells" (*shudder*) through multitudinous means. Those weird "metallic" and "chromatic" dragons tend to have "cleric spells" as "arcane spells," and that fantasy noire campaign setting Eberron has the Child of Eberron dragon archetype to give them druid spells, as well.

(So weird!)Wait, is that what "arcane-divine transparency" means? One is fluffed as scientists and the other as divine intervention; I thought by default they don't interact, and letting them dispel each others' "spells" was a house rule. :smallconfused:

[EisenKreutzer]

Wait, is that what "arcane-divine transparency" means? One is fluffed as scientists and the other as divine intervention; I thought by default they don't interact, and letting them dispel each others' "spells" was a house rule. :smallconfused:

Nah, thats the weird part. «Divine« and «Arcane« magic are different in fluff only, mechanically they are the same system. In the fluff the «arcane» classes need all kinds of weird ingredients to manifest their powers, while the «Divine» classes just need to hold up a symbol of their god, but otherwise it’s identical.
Honestly, it’s all very confusing, and this transparency stuff is just flat out weird.

For some reason the designers decided to explicitly put the decision of wether or not this «magic» interacts normally with regular psionics completely in the hands of the GM. But they silently enforce no transparency by giving them their own version of Knowledge: Psionics called Knowedge: Arcane, as well as their own kind of Power Resistance.
It’s just messy.

[Particle_Man]

These new wizards even get familiars (like psi-crystals but better!). If you look closely, some of those familiars can fly (and deliver touch spells!), use magic items, etc. Broken11!!11111!!!

[HeraldOfExius]

Nah, thats the weird part. «Divine« and «Arcane« magic are different in fluff only, mechanically they are the same system. In the fluff the «arcane» classes need all kinds of weird ingredients to manifest their powers, while the «Divine» classes just need to hold up a symbol of their god, but otherwise it’s identical.
Honestly, it’s all very confusing, and this transparency stuff is just flat out weird.

I find it especially weird that a wizard needs to rummage around in a little bag of everything to cast the same spell as a cleric who just holds out a small carving. Mechanically they both simplify to "needs a free hand," but this system would be so much easier to learn if you didn't have to memorize which 5 gp doodad you need to buy to be able to use your class features.

[EisenKreutzer]

Also, when you think about it critically the whole distinction between these «spellcasters» and regular manifesters breaks down. These classes «memorize» their spells, meaning the spells are stored in their mind and are really an application of mental power. So really it’s all just another way of being a psionic manifester «without being a psionic manifester.»
And the «sorcery» class is even worse, as their powers are literally ingrained in their mind just like a normal power.

It’s all just reflavoured psionics, making the whole subsystem thematically pointless. AND without power points as a way to balance it, it’s extremely open to abuse. Honestly this was a bad idea. There was nothing wrong with psionics. Gandalf and Raistlin were obviously psions, and I’m struggling to think of any literary source of inspiration for these classes, besides that one weird Vance guy.

[Segev]

Gandalf and Raistlin were obviously psions, and I’m struggling to think of any literary source of inspiration for these classes, besides that one weird Vance guy.Well, of course Raistlin was a psion; the whole Dragonlance series is a novelization of the Hickman/Weiss D&D campaign. Elminster, Nystul, and Mordenkainen are also psions; we know this because that's their listed class. (Okay, Elminster is probably better done as one of those Spell-to-Power Erudites or *shudder* Arcanists, but he was made before this new system designed at his level of GMPC brokenness came out.)

There's a novel series where the psychic powers could be "hung" for later manifestation called the Chronicles of Amber; I wonder if these wizards can model that any better.

Has anybody else commented on the weird "Magical Drow" sidebar, by the way? Their psi-like abilities just seem to get relabeled to "magical," and now their Mind-matrons are being relabeled as clerics. I guess they needed a "magic" underdark race, and it was a toss-up on the drow or the mind flayers, and with "mind" in the name, they couldn't make them work that way. But why not just make a new race that uses magic, instead?

[upho]

Guys... Guys. Have you seen the absurdity that is the arcanist?Yeah, it's ridiculous. Although looking at the delayed progression and fewer spell "slots" per day, and considering it's virtually impossible to boost your progression beyond that of your base class in PF AFAICT, I thankfully don't think it's quite as ridiculous as it may first appear.

BTW, if I'm reading it right the truly sick option on this "archanist super-flex"-theme is the related Exploiter Wizard archetype. It gets basically all the versatility/flexibility advantages of the archanist manifesting on top of the wizard's superior power progression, right?


Well, there also is the Spell to Power Erudite, and that just.... No downsides, get every arcane spell!! And all the psionic powers.Say what?

*reads up on on new Erudite variant*

:smalleek: Holy crap, you're absolutely right! Yet another of these new "caster" class options to ban from my games. With a minimum one-mile restraining order, enforced 24/7 with an electronic ankle tag and a dedicated "immediate lethal force response" SWAT team on standby... :smallannoyed:


Also, when you think about it critically the whole distinction between these «spellcasters» and regular manifesters breaks down. These classes «memorize» their spells, meaning the spells are stored in their mind and are really an application of mental power. So really it’s all just another way of being a psionic manifester «without being a psionic manifester.»I think the "prepared" ones seem different enough, although I agree they didn't have to ditch the PP system just for that.


And the «sorcery» class is even worse, as their powers are literally ingrained in their mind just like a normal power.This is so true. The sorcerer in my 3.5 game (mentioned in my previous post) played very much like an OP wilder, albeit with a somewhat clunkier manifesting system.


It’s all just reflavoured psionics, making the whole subsystem thematically pointless. AND without power points as a way to balance it, it’s extremely open to abuse. Honestly this was a bad idea. There was nothing wrong with psionics. Gandalf and Raistlin were obviously psions, and I’m struggling to think of any literary source of inspiration for these classes, besides that one weird Vance guy.This.


Has anybody else commented on the weird "Magical Drow" sidebar, by the way? Their psi-like abilities just seem to get relabeled to "magical," and now their Mind-matrons are being relabeled as clerics. I guess they needed a "magic" underdark race, and it was a toss-up on the drow or the mind flayers, and with "mind" in the name, they couldn't make them work that way. But why not just make a new race that uses magic, instead?Yeah. Though I don't mind the option, I can't see many groups preferring to replace pretty iconic psi-related drow concepts/terms like Mind-Matrons and Psiders. But I get why they chose the drow, being the underdark creature most commonly available as a PC race and thus with the greatest need for compatibility, even if an alternative to the illithids would likely see more use as they don't have much in the way of intrinsically psi-related fluff beyond the name itself.

[ShurikVch]

Once again, I'm understand it's a joke thread, but allow me to say my opinion: psionics is inherently sci-fi concept, thus if it replace the magic from the moment 0, then the game would be something about blasters and spaceships (or mutants and radiation)

[EisenKreutzer]

Once again, I'm understand it's a joke thread, but allow me to say my opinion: psionics is inherently sci-fi concept, thus if it replace the magic from the moment 0, then the game would be something about blasters and spaceships (or mutants and radiation)

It’s really not, though. Theres plenty of fantasy with themes that align with the flavour of psionics. It has a place in fantasy, just not bog standard Tolkienesque fantasy. It’s no more inherently sci-fi than anything else.
Also, why the need to crap on what is obviously, through your own admission a joke thread?

[ShurikVch]

It’s really not, though. Theres plenty of fantasy with themes that align with the flavour of psionics. It has a place in fantasy, just not bog standard Tolkienesque fantasy. It’s no more inherently sci-fi than anything else.I dare you to name a single (yes, just one!) piece of fantasy which was published in before the D&D, and had psionics in it.

"You got your sci-fi in my fantasy!" was a thing longer than the IBM PC/XT

Also, IIRR, many of jokes in that thread are referring to revised 3.5 psionics rules
Try to make those jokes with original 3.0 Psionics Handbook rules (let alone The Complete Psionics Handbook) or Psionicist from Dragon #78
Not so funny, eh?

[Khedrac]

I dare you to name a single (yes, just one!) piece of fantasy which was published in before the D&D, and had psionics in it.

Deryni Rising, the first of Katherine Kerr's Deryni novels which are usually* held to be psionics not magic was published in 1970.
*Not only are their powers usually better modelled by psionics, but Dragon #78 had an large section devoted to altering 1st Ed AD&D psionics to match the novels together with first psionicist class published. (You even reference this class.)

Dragonflight, the first Anne McCaffrey was published in 1968 - at this point the novel was very much what we would now call a fantasy novel (regardless of where the series has gone since) and Lessa's psionic powers were a major part of the novel (something greatly de-emphasised in the later books).

Since this is the D20 forum, I think looking at how D20 magic would fit into a D20 psionics world is entirely appropriate as the default assumption for this highly entertaining thread.

Keep up the great works guys!

[ShurikVch]

Deryni Rising, the first of Katherine Kerr's Deryni novels which are usually* held to be psionics not magic was published in 1970.
*Not only are their powers usually better modelled by psionics, but Dragon #78 had an large section devoted to altering 1st Ed AD&D psionics to match the novels together with first psionicist class published. (You even reference this class.)

Dragonflight, the first Anne McCaffrey was published in 1968 - at this point the novel was very much what we would now call a fantasy novel (regardless of where the series has gone since) and Lessa's psionic powers were a major part of the novel (something greatly de-emphasised in the later books).McCaffrey is sci-fi 100%

Deryni, however, fits my request just fine
(Never heard of neither series itself, nor its author)


Since this is the D20 forum, I think looking at how D20 magic would fit into a D20 psionics world is entirely appropriate as the default assumption for this highly entertaining thread.The question is: which D20 psionics we should use?
Expanded Psionics Handbook is very different from original Psionics Handbook, both are even more different from 2E psionics (which is also different between The Complete Psionics Handbook and Player's Option: Skills & Powers), and there also was psionics in Eldritch Wizardry (1976)...

[Segev]

McCaffrey is sci-fi 100%

But WAS it in 1968?

Let's say that we discover a new set of documents by JRR Tolkien, previously missing because they were stuck in an old briefcase he accidentally left in a hotel once, which revealed that Ea was actually a Master Control Program for a Thinking Machine which was simulating the entirety of the Middle Earth setting. The whole thing is what we would recognize today as an MMORPG in its setting lore, of course with its own differences because Tolkien was envisioning it long before such things existed.

Would that make all of LotR sci-fi?


By the same token, if we'd never gotten the backstory behind Pern, revealing where humans in that setting came from, would Pern be a fantasy or a sci-fi series?


Calling Dragonflight "fantasy" is quite accurate; it fits that genre much more than it fits sci-fi, because all of its trappings, tropes, etc. work there, and the sci-fi angle is purely backstory excuse wrt that particular story.

[ShurikVch]

...:smallsmile: I like to argue with smart and well-behaving opponents!


But WAS it in 1968?
Let's say that we discover a new set of documents by JRR Tolkien, previously missing because they were stuck in an old briefcase he accidentally left in a hotel once, which revealed that Ea was actually a Master Control Program for a Thinking Machine which was simulating the entirety of the Middle Earth setting. The whole thing is what we would recognize today as an MMORPG in its setting lore, of course with its own differences because Tolkien was envisioning it long before such things existed.

Would that make all of LotR sci-fi?


By the same token, if we'd never gotten the backstory behind Pern, revealing where humans in that setting came from, would Pern be a fantasy or a sci-fi series?That would be fantasy with sci-fi premise
We seen such thing in Sword Art Online, earlier (and much much less famous) World of the Crystal by Stepan Vartanov, or Might and Magic game series (Kreegans - "devils" of the series - are, actually, aliens)
Heck, even Warhammer 40000 is still sci-fi - despite having daemons etc.


Calling Dragonflight "fantasy" is quite accurate; it fits that genre much more than it fits sci-fi, because all of its trappings, tropes, etc. work there, and the sci-fi angle is purely backstory excuse wrt that particular story.Quoting the Psionics in Science Fiction (http://www.paulbspence.com/index.php/2017/05/15/psionics-in-science-fiction/):
The Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey
...
Psionics in the stories is low-key, mostly telepathy and empathy in a few rare individuals.So, how you distinguishing "fantasy telepathy and empathy" from "sci-fi telepathy and empathy"?

[Segev]

That would be fantasy with sci-fi premiseWhich is how I'd classify any Pern novel that doesn't touch directly on the space-future-past of the setting.


Quoting the Psionics in Science Fiction (http://www.paulbspence.com/index.php/2017/05/15/psionics-in-science-fiction/):So, how you distinguishing "fantasy telepathy and empathy" from "sci-fi telepathy and empathy"?

I'm not. I agree: typically, you'll find psionics in sci-fi and magic in fantasy. I think that is because, for some reason, we've culturally dismissed "magic" as "unscientific," but still somehow accept "supernatural mind powers" as a thing that theoretically could happen.

However, nothing about "supernatural mind powers" can't exist in fantasy. And if the fantasy setting doesn't distinguish between "mind magic" and "psionics" or "magic, in general," it fits the trappings of fantasy if the author writes a fantasy semi-medieval milleaux (or really anything that is pre-modern; modern fantasy tends to be its own genre).

The Pern novels don't really call dragon speech "magic" or "psionic." They do refer to it as "telepathy" and to dragons' ability to "go between," but neither is overtly naming psi or magic.

Since, absent knowledge from novels that came later, we wouldn't know Pern was an alien planet in hypothetically the Earth-containing universe, colonized by humans from Earth generations ago, it reads as fantasy with low-key mind-magic and high-power teleportation, all mediated by highly fantastic creatures.

Thus, especially in context of this thread, which is supposing that D&D originated with "psionics" as the name for the stuff that the mystical party members did, and used Psionic mechanics from each relevant edition up through third, I think terming Dragonflight "fantasy" and the "psion" being meant to model the "obviously psionic, not magic" characters who ride the dragons would be appropriate.