Uh oh. Party has no Tank.

[SKW05]

Ok, so our (not vastly experienced) group of 4 is about to start a new D&D 5e campaign at level 2. Unearthed Arcana is allowed, and we've all picked our classes.

Except no-one really chose Tank. :smalleek:

I'm an extremely squishy wizard; I fear I will be first to get mauled. So I've unlurked, hoping to get the insight of thsi forum into creative ways to not die.

Firstly, I should say that I think everyone is already too wedded to their characters to change classes.

We have a rogue, Light cleric and a fighter... but one with everything thrown into archery skills. When I chose my spells I didn't realise how tilted toward archery our fighter was... so I fear I did not choose well. And can't change them, sadly. Here is my spellbook:

Friends
Message
Mind Sliver

Charm Person C
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Shield
Silent Image C
Comprehend Languages
Find Familiar
Unseen Servant

Another added wrinkle is that I've chosen Onomancy from UA for my wizardly school - for those who don't know, it will basically let me cast Bless without using a spell slot 3 times a day (yay!) but I now realise it will also mean I'll never get to cast any concentration spell in battle, as Bless is pretty much always too useful not to have on. And our (deeply odd?) Cleric doesn't want it in his spell selection.

So, yeah, I fear our doom. Are there any good non-concentration spells I can get next level that might prop this party up? Or creative ways to get around the lack of a keen melee fighter? Anyone play in team with a hands-off approach like this before, and have insight? All assistance welcomed! :smallsmile:

[Stone-Ears]

I would just make it clear to the party that a tactical retreat or a hit and run style is perfectly acceptable. Most groups feel like they have to kill ALLL the baddies in one encounter, but this doesn't have to be the case.

If any battle looks like it'll be coming into melee, cast shield and fricking run for your life.

You'll need to get mirror images and/or misty step to add to your survivability. You'll need to get crowd control spells soon as well.

The only thing I can think of to help you get all the advantage you can get is to use your familiar as a scout. Use your familiar to scout ahead and gather information for you and your party so that you guys can plan a course of attack together.

No party composition is impossible to work with. It's just with your party, you can't go charging into battle. Guerilla warfare or die.

[Xenothelm]

Your Light Cleric will lead the way :)

[GlenSmash!]

This isn't a big deal. If you learn to stay mobile, you'll be just fine and probably not have to spend resources healing a "Tank"

[Laserlight]

If the other guys insist on running into contact with the bad guys, as if they were tanks, then you can go ahead and roll your next character. That was the last campaign I was in, and as soon as I went on vacation and wasn't around to say "Maybe don't run suicidally into, I said don't...GET BACK HERE! " it was a TPK.

But maybe your guys are smarter than that. Try to avoid enclosed spaces. As long as you've got a lot of room to fall back, you could be okay.

[Expected]

If it's not too late to switch subclasses, switch to Abjuration or Divination Wizard. Abjurer's get a ward that grants them temporary hit points and Diviner's get to switch a roll with their Portent. Bless is useful, but Wizards get way too many amazing spells to waste their concentration on it. And besides, your Fighter will probably be taking Fighting Style: Archery so he doesn't need the extra chance to hit.

Honestly, I would try to figure out a way to improve survivability, be it through switching to Bladesinger or dipping into another class for armor proficiency.

Is the Rogue melee or ranged? Is your Light Cleric going to wear heavy armor? Don't underestimate the tanking ability of a Cleric--Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon is amazing.

[Neoh]

Well, you can hope for an indulgent DM, maybe he'll balance everything accordingly.

If you really want to play this character, I don't know what could help you, there are great non-concentration spells from other classes. Get Mirror Image, maybe you'll last longer than the others. Throw Grease at the full plate guy charging at you.

The Rogue could be tankish and make a good frontline going Half-Elf with the High-Elf cantrip, taking Booming Blade and the Swashbuckler archetype, an Arcane Trickster could bring a lot of utility too.

The Light Cleric is a solid choice, Medium Armor + 14 Dex + Shield is 18 AC level 1, Warding Flare is nice and depending on the spell selection he might bring quite a bit to the table.

And the Fighter... Well, he'll still be solid, just not a frontline. Pray for him to hit every time, maybe he'll be able to reduce their numbers by the time they get close. If he goes Battlemaster he can bring a bit of utility too.

Bless is far from godlike, concentrating on it every fight is a waste. Ofc it's good, but I mean, there are so many concentration spells in your book, why waste it on a D4? With a squishy party, Fog Cloud seems like a better alternative, especially at range and with a Rogue.
Bless is good against a single big guy, but you generally don't fight "the big guy" multiple times a day, having Bless for free 3 times is a bit of an overkill.
If I were you I'd go Abjuration Wizard with 1 level of Cleric to get 18 AC without need to waste a spell on Mage Armor and Bless + Shield of Faith/Cure Wounds/Healing Word + Guidance + Spare the Dying.


Or you could try playing a Lore Bard, Plant Growth will literally save your party, Inspiration and Cutting Words are nice tools, a lesser Bless and a better Bane and you get spells from ANY class.

[MaxWilson]

Ok, so our (not vastly experienced) group of 4 is about to start a new D&D 5e campaign at level 2. Unearthed Arcana is allowed, and we've all picked our classes.

Except no-one really chose Tank. :smalleek:

I'm an extremely squishy wizard; I fear I will be first to get mauled. So I've unlurked, hoping to get the insight of thsi forum into creative ways to not die.

Firstly, I should say that I think everyone is already too wedded to their characters to change classes.

We have a rogue, Light cleric and a fighter... but one with everything thrown into archery skills. When I chose my spells I didn't realise how tilted toward archery our fighter was... so I fear I did not choose well. And can't change them, sadly. Here is my spellbook:

Friends
Message
Mind Sliver

Charm Person C
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Shield
Silent Image C
Comprehend Languages
Find Familiar
Unseen Servant

Another added wrinkle is that I've chosen Onomancy from UA for my wizardly school - for those who don't know, it will basically let me cast Bless without using a spell slot 3 times a day (yay!) but I now realise it will also mean I'll never get to cast any concentration spell in battle, as Bless is pretty much always too useful not to have on. And our (deeply odd?) Cleric doesn't want it in his spell selection.

So, yeah, I fear our doom. Are there any good non-concentration spells I can get next level that might prop this party up? Or creative ways to get around the lack of a keen melee fighter? Anyone play in team with a hands-off approach like this before, and have insight? All assistance welcomed! :smallsmile:

Frankly any of the other PCs can probably tank just fine: light cleric, rogue, or fighter. A Dodging cleric with Spiritual Weapon up is plenty tanky, for example, and will let the Rogue get Sneak Attack damage while the fighter shoots arrows with Help from the wizard's familiar.


The only thing I can think of to help you get all the advantage you can get is to use your familiar as a scout. Use your familiar to scout ahead and gather information for you and your party so that you guys can plan a course of attack together.

No party composition is impossible to work with. It's just with your party, you can't go charging into battle. Guerilla warfare or die.

And then once you know where the monsters are, spread lots of caltrops, then try to make enough noise that the monsters come attack you on your ground instead of you attacking them on theirs. Caltrops are only 1gp per bag and they are extremely useful especially for a ranged-heavy party.

[Samayu]

Find the safest place to stand. High ground, for example. (I don't suppose you have a climb speed.) Inside the circle of Spirit Guardians. Hide behind something.

The rest of the team's behavior can have a big effect on your survivability.We've got a guy in our group who takes pains to never get hit. But that combat avoidance makes the rest of us more likely to take the damage. Many times I've seen one or two of us go down when he wasn't damaged. He's always proud of that, but if he'd been in there to take just a couple of hits, the nobody would have had to have been revived. And this is something that tanks are guilty of too. The guy with the 23 AC isn't getting hurt, but neither are any smart monsters going after him. And I know a warlock who loves his Armor of Agathys. But it only ever stops one attack before the bad guys get smart.

Convince someone that it's in their best interests to keep the mage alive. Often it will be one of our big dumb guys (characters, not players). That's easier to do in a big party, though. As is the Bless spell.

Hopefully your fighter is dishing out a lot of damage, and the rogue is combat oriented because the best defense is a good offense. And stay near the cleric.

[J-H]

How about a concentration-free 10x10 square that forces "DC 10 Dex save or fall" for anyone who passes through it?
A bag of 1,000 ball bearings is very cheap, and uses no spell slots! Overturn tables, throw ball bearings, deploy caltrops, and otherwise shape the battlefield to your advantage.

[opaopajr]

How exciting! :smallcool: You all will have to use other talents to avoid fights, or end up with fights in your favor!

Better combat advice? Cast the Bless and Dodge, ideally with some Cover. :smallwink: You'll be helping the party and be a sort of 'tank'/'lure'. Very doable, especially if you a good at tactics.

Best combat advice? Avoid combat often, especially by acting friendly to new encounters. You have a few charming spells for that.

You can use Expeditious Retreat, but I am not as fond of it here. I prefer Longstrider, especially for upcasting in the future, no conc. and it lasts quite long. Distance is a great form of defense! :smallbiggrin:

[Garresh]

With that setup, Silent Image and Find Familiar are going to be a godsend. You should ideally never be caught by surprise, and ALSO be able to waste enemy resources, terrain permitting. I know bless is a nice use of concentration, but control and disruption are a better use. You need to get a creative with those illusions to buy time. Maybe create a copy of the fighter with the bow in such a position that enemies waste time and movement approaching the illusion while you unload? Or create false hazards that, again, waste enemy movement.

You need to be planning out your combats and studying terrain for every fight.

Anyways, once you hit second level spells, there's some nice options. Others have outlined the great survivability options, but those only really help you. Levitate is an amazing spell. It can be used defensively, but you can also pick up a big bad with few or no ranged options and hold him helplessly in the air for your archers. Web is also excellent for disrupting movement.

I'd put most of your focus into stalling tactics and terrain hazards, so that you don't NEED tank.

[Drache64]

Find ways to cause mass fear, I'm not sure if any spells do this got wizards but I imagine there is something.

When I play Bard, I Mass crowd control with fear abilities to cause most weak enemies to hide in the corner while we focus on things that didn't run. Very handy tactic.

[Monster Manuel]

When I chose my spells I didn't realise how tilted toward archery our fighter was... so I fear I did not choose well. And can't change them, sadly.

You can, though. Don't forget that this is the thing that Wizards do best, out of any spellcasting class that doesn't automatically get all spells. You can scribe new spells into your spellbook. You may not have them at first level, but keep an eye out for opportunities to snag new spells from enemy wizards' books, or bought from musty old bookshops, or as rewards for tasks done for more powerful spellcasters. Adding new spells is kind of a wizard's whole thing...

[Willie the Duck]

So, yeah, I fear our doom. Are there any good non-concentration spells I can get next level that might prop this party up? Or creative ways to get around the lack of a keen melee fighter? Anyone play in team with a hands-off approach like this before, and have insight? All assistance welcomed! :smallsmile:

The #1 and often overlooked way to fix any kind of suboptimal party configuration is to pick lesser challenges to take on, run from combats you don't think you can win, and work with the DM to make sure everyone is on the same page. Beyond that, always make sure your combats start on your terms, with you in optimal positions, and when that doesn't happen, choose not to fight. MaxW's reference to caltrops are the game-codified movable option for this, but with a DM working with you, there are an infinite number of ways to do this. Temple construction sites with scaffolds and ropes to swing around on and barrels to push over at people or rubble piles to impede movement. Actual hill forts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillfort). Heck, forts in general.

[stack]

5e doesn't have many tanking mechanics anyway, it mostly has DM's that courteously have monsters attack the PC that can take a hit.

[Slipperychicken]

We have a rogue, Light cleric and a fighter... but one with everything thrown into archery skills. When I chose my spells I didn't realise how tilted toward archery our fighter was... so I fear I did not choose well. And can't change them, sadly. Here is my spellbook:


It's not an optimal party obviously, but you have everything you need. Clerics, fighters, and rogues all have decent AC and hitpoints. You have... enough healing as long as you all play smart and your cleric doesn't blow all his slots trying to blast people.

Your party just has to use it's brain a tiny bit, care about positioning, think about whether you can actually take on a fight right now. Using the familiar to scout is great idea if it can get your party thinking in those terms. I know it's a lot to ask of a 5e group, but don't just don't mindlessly advance hoping your party's class abilities will save you. But yeah if you're a bunch of goofballs who won't do things intelligently, and must rely on game mechanics to bail them out every time, then you're screwed.

Buildwise

Your jobs as a wizard are: multi-target/area damage, crowd control, utility
Get Sleep, use it in any fight where putting down ~22hp worth of creatures is a good idea. Even if the fight is a foregone conclusion, you will save hitpoints. Also good when it's convenient for you to put a weakling to sleep.
Consider 'Ice Knife' for area damage
Why would you get Bless when you already have a cleric?
Friends is useless unless you're a face, and even then is of dubious value. Consider mold earth or acid splash.
If you're super duper worried about hitpoints, consider the healer feat

[SKW05]

...spread lots of caltrops...

Yes, yeeeeess the caltrops, yeesssss. :belkar:

Some great suggestions here guys. Thanks.

One thing to add is that our DM has given us the magic imitate feat for free, but chosen our spells for us. I get the awesome Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation! And the OK False Life. However, even better, I see our fighter landed himself the extra-awesome Find Familiar; should help even things up! I might even tell my own familiar to 'help' our rogue - shouldn't that give him advantage (and thus sneak attacks) each round? :confused:

Still annoyed with myself, though. Originally, we had a druid on the team, but he changed his mind and went rogue. Foolish me didn't re-check the party classes before choosing my spell list - if only I had chosen Sleep or Grease! Though if I can get my hands on a scroll it would be around 25gps, I think? Then more to add to the spellbook.


Friends is useless unless you're a face

Everyone else has dumped CHA to a scary degree.

Being the 'charming' face actually fitted with the Extract Name Onomancy feature, oddly - though its made my wizard pretty min/max built, bumping up his charisma to 'face' levels.

Not sure what to do for next level for spells (if we survive that far). Mind Slice and a sly use of my familiar would combine viciously with Dragon's Breath, but that spell is concentration. So tempting, though...

[Willie the Duck]

shouldn't that give him advantage (and thus sneak attacks) each round? :confused:

If the familiar is present in the right spot when the attack roll is made, they will give the rogue advantage. The issue becomes that they are highly vulnerable, low-hp creatures. It is probably advantageous for the target to give up an attack to just gank them rather than be subject to that. That makes them expensive ablative armor for the rogue. If you have an owl familiar, they can move in, help, and move out (meaning the opponent would have to step away from the rogue--potentially opening themselves up to a SA-boosted opportunity attack -- to strike the familiar). Unfortunately, unless the DM rules that your familiar acts on the rogue's turn (quite a nice thing of them to do, really), there is going to be timing issues on that.

[MaxWilson]

The #1 and often overlooked way to fix any kind of suboptimal party configuration is to pick lesser challenges to take on, run from combats you don't think you can win, and work with the DM to make sure everyone is on the same page. Beyond that, always make sure your combats start on your terms, with you in optimal positions, and when that doesn't happen, choose not to fight. MaxW's reference to caltrops are the game-codified movable option for this, but with a DM working with you, there are an infinite number of ways to do this. Temple construction sites with scaffolds and ropes to swing around on and barrels to push over at people or rubble piles to impede movement. Actual hill forts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillfort). Heck, forts in general.

Oh yeah, pick up Mold Earth cantrip ASAP, after checking to make sure that your DM counts dirt as loose earth.


5e doesn't have many tanking mechanics anyway, it mostly has DM's that courteously have monsters attack the PC that can take a hit.

Additionally, monsters that gamely fight to the death for the players' amusement even when the monsters have no chance of victory, instead of fleeing to fight another day/get reinforcements from other monsters nearby.

[jaappleton]

Alrighty.

I've been playing 5E since its release. I've played in three player campaigns, two player campaigns, and 6 player campaigns.

Here's what I discovered:

5E does not require the party to have the traditional roles. You can go no healer. You can go no blaster. You're certainly viable going no tank.

And you can absolutely have success.

"Oh we have no tank!"
"Do you have enough to render enemies useless? Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person, Monks with Stunning Strike, etc? Then you're good."

Plus, of ALL the roles you can go without... IMO, tank is the least necessary. They seldom have an ability to direct aggro toward themselves and away from squishy characters.

You'll be fine. You have zero to worry about.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Clerics can tank pretty well if he wants to go that route. Rogues can sort of do it as they can halve damage a couple ways and build decent AC off Dex bonuses.

In the end though, you'll be fine.

[patchyman]

Since I’m all about stating the obvious, recruit an additional player.

[dreast]

Light Cleric is a perfectly reasonable tank.

[Dudu]

Lol, a cleric without bless is exotic indeed.
The two most bread-and-butter spells of cleric's early career are Bless and Healing Word.
Really, playing without one can make the game a bit harder.

But no worries, you, the wizard, has bless. Perhaps you casting bless every fight will make the cleric player think "whoa, this spell is useful". Btw, how is the cleric using his concentration?

Oh, and I don't think you truly need a tank. Use your environment to your favor. But you have to realize a straight on assault won't be your best method of solving your problems. Talk, sneak, charm and snipe are better options.

[Samayu]

I think your main problem is... with a low AC, you're going to want to stay away from melee. Your rogue will probably try to do the same, since that's what rogues do - they hide and attack from the shadows. And archers generally try to stay away from melee, so they're not shooting with disadvantage. The cleric is the only one with an AC, who will be OK in melee.

So tactics are going to be very important here. It's not an "every man for himself" situation. If you don't work together carefully, you're all going to die, not just the wizard.

[Zerubbabel]

Hire an NPC or find a scroll of summon monster?

[UnderwaterAir]

I've done two home brew campaigns with basically no tank. Both took about 1 year each meeting once a week.

Kiting enemies back became a very real thing.
Things like setting up barriers and walls to split the enemy groups up also became commonplace in our battle strategies.

Invading a drow prison camp our go-to strategy was literally setting up stone walls and hiding behind it. Also grabbing barrels or large bags and using that as cover.

I say it adds an element of fun to the game. Enjoy it. :)

[djreynolds]

The great thing about fighters is they can grab a shield.

14 dexterity and scale mail is AC 16, rapier and shield is AC 18. As good as anyone in chainmail is going to get

And fighters can use any weapon or armor

So tell the fighter to sling bow, and go S&B when needed

[Mordaedil]

I think you are vastly overestimating the need for a "tank". D&D doesn't follow MMO conventions in the first place and everything melee-wise, your cleric there is more than capable of following up on. Archer fighters are fully viable and still be decent combatants more than capable of tanking in the capacity that any other fighter can.

And like everyone else is saying, you are kinda filling in all of the classic roles (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) so you should be perfectly fine. You have literally nothing to worry about.

[lperkins2]

It really all depends on the type of campaign. If it's WotC published material, you'll be fine. That's balanced for 'average' characters, which in 5e are decidedly average. 4 decently well built characters will have no problems, even if they don't synergize well.

If it's not published material, and is balanced under the assumption of synergistic decently strong characters, you may have a bit of trouble, but probably not that much, assuming the group is capable of tactical play. Remember, every attack the enemy makes is a chance of taking damage, which drains resources. Best way to 'tank' is to prevent the enemy from acting in the first place.

[Nikushimi]

Gonna give my input to this topic.

I am currently in two 5e games. One is a bit on hiatus right now, but in that group we are missing a healer.

There's our Dwarven Sailor Barbarian who is basically our damage sponge as he recently took a level in Druid (eventually Circle of the Moon to turn into a Bear).

We have a Fire Obsessed Halfling Sorcerer.

Our very excitable and all over the place Gnome Bard.

Then there's me. The Half-Elf Eldritch Knight Fey Warlock.

Our Bard has been the one basically healing us with Healing Word.
---

Then, in my second game it was just three of us. The DM and two players, me and another.

I am a Half-Drow Light Cleric and the other guy is a Tiefling Bard, College of Swords.

My Light Cleric started off with an AC of 18, currently 19 after getting better armor. I may not be have the most HP, but with Shield of Faith granting me a +2 to my AC as well as Warding Flare, I have been the main line for most of it when the Bard isn't slicing away at enemies.

We now have a Human Paladin and Human Ranger in our party now, so some of the pressure is off, but up until that point we were doing pretty damn well. I mean, a lot of it was what the DM threw at us, but even so, they weren't exactly going that easy on us.
---

My points with this.

1. You don't need to have dedicated roles for every single scenario. Learn your weaknesses and adapt. It makes for great storytelling and roleplay scenarios and challenges you to figure out how to overcome those weaknesses.
2. The Light Cleric is 1000% capable of being your tank. The fact that they won't take Bless is weird considering they can pray for it and then change it after a long rest anyways....but with all the other abilities they are completely capable of being a front liner imo.
3. Unconventional teams are sometimes the most interesting, and it's up to the DM to understand your strengths and weaknesses to create appropriate encounters for you.

So, overall, don't fret too much about not having a tank. You can make up for it easily with your party composition.

The only thing I'm confused on is why you can't change your spells if you haven't started playing yet...unless you have, then I completely understand and simply be on the look out for other spells you can transcribe into your Spellbook to use.

Bless, honestly, isn't that essential. It's nice to have, but a lot better things are out there so don't worry to much about that.

Hope this helped. Cheers and enjoy the game!

[HiveStriker]

Hi OP Hi All! :)

To bring my two cents.

I disagree to some extent with people saying that there is nothing to worry about, or that parties don't need traditional roles.
Parties don't need to have each character being set and restricted to one role only, or to the same role for every encounter.
However having classes that obviously favor one behaviour over others helps much imx people to coordinate naturally (which is important when players don't know each other beforehand).

I also disagree on the fact that you'd have nothing to worry about.
However, it's not that big a deal either to have nobody dedicated to the frontline.
In fact, to be honest, it may even be BETTER: because that way, EVERYBODY has to act smart.

It happens a bit too often too my taste that, just because you have one guy "that is the tank", one of the following happens...
- The Tank rushes to his death because he's too focused on "being a whole frontline by himself" to pay attention to actual threat level (like moving out of range of Healing Words, being surrounded by mooks that block retreat, or rush to a spellcaster that has little trouble disabling him with a WIS/CHA effect).
- The rest of the party focuses each on its own micro-management, without paying attention to whether creatures tries to prepare a pincer attack on their backline or whether the tank is needing any help to keep its survivability/threat balance to an acceptable level.

As others said, everyone in your party except you can "off-tank".
- Cleric can prepare a Shield of Faith if really Bless is out of question. Later he can use Spirit Guardians while dodging, it's efficient enough. If your DM follows RAW and not RAI, you could even stack a Sanctuary on top.
- Rogue has Dash and Disengage: he can easily start the fight advancing with a melee weapon, making himself look like he's gonna tank, so several enemies will go towards him, while himself puts some distance away from your group. Then when heats becomes a bit too much, he can Dash away from the group as a bonus action and switch to ranged weapon (or Disengage as bonus action then Dash as action if need be). Later, he'll get Uncanny Dodge to help keeping this strategy alive even with ranged attackers among enemies.
- Fighter, unless he's a real jerk, can and should stay the closest to enemies of your trio (since Rogue away ^^) so enemies naturally tend to attack him first. He should have strong AC, incentive to get OA (especially if he goes Battlemaster), and he has Second Wind. So while he cannot "tank" per se, he can and should expose himself to the occasional hit if it means avoiding a risk at concentration break (you/Cleric) or someone getting downed.
- YOU, yourself, should concentrate on learning mass-disabling spells, preferably mixing spells with friendly fire (like Hypnotic Pattern) and those without (Slow).

Besides, since DM gave you free Magic Initiate, I suppose everyone has ranged cantrips in addition to ranged weapons.
So apply what everyone said already (be smart, evaluate fights to avoid those you can't win, use every mean available to avoid bad surprises) and it should be ok.

[SKW05]

Unfortunately, unless the DM rules that your familiar acts on the rogue's turn (quite a nice thing of them to do, really), there is going to be timing issues on that.

Ah. Good point. We kind of home-brew this a bit for the campaign – in the PHB I believe it says you always roll initiative separately for familiars, but the DM found this annoying to keep track of, and ruled a familiar just acted on the same turn as its caster.

So, my familiar would only be able to ‘help’ the rogue if I get the higher initiative – not something I can happening very often!


The only thing I'm confused on is why you can't change your spells if you haven't started playing yet

I am *ahem* a little notorious for wanting to change my spell list every 5 minutes. I probably just tried our DMs patience. Hehehe.

[Willie the Duck]

Ah. Good point. We kind of home-brew this a bit for the campaign – in the PHB I believe it says you always roll initiative separately for familiars, but the DM found this annoying to keep track of, and ruled a familiar just acted on the same turn as its caster.

So, my familiar would only be able to ‘help’ the rogue if I get the higher initiative – not something I can happening very often!

Worse, the familiar can't do their movement except on their turn, which is your turn. So they have to move to the site of the rogue fighting an opponent on their turn and be prepared to aid in the rogue's next attack roll, but then have to stick around (presumably in range of the opponent's weapons) until the rogue's turn, whereupon they cannot fly away. What you would actually need is the DM to rule that the familiar acted on the same turn as the party member they were aiding, which is another ask a little bit farther down the accommodation line.

[MaxWilson]

Worse, the familiar can't do their movement except on their turn, which is your turn. So they have to move to the site of the rogue fighting an opponent on their turn and be prepared to aid in the rogue's next attack roll, but then have to stick around (presumably in range of the opponent's weapons) until the rogue's turn, whereupon they cannot fly away. What you would actually need is the DM to rule that the familiar acted on the same turn as the party member they were aiding, which is another ask a little bit farther down the accommodation line.

Help does not require you to remain within 5' of the enemy after you Help. It's perfectly kosher for your familiar to fly up to a specific enemy, Help attack, fly away, and expect your ally to get advantage on their next attack roll (even if they are shooting at the enemy from 150' away).

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

[Willie the Duck]

Help does not require you to remain within 5' of the enemy after you Help. It's perfectly kosher for your familiar to fly up to a specific enemy, Help attack, fly away, and expect your ally to get advantage on their next attack roll (even if they are shooting at the enemy from 150' away).

Huh. It does stipulate that it lasts until your next turn. A little surprising, but they actually did think through the timing. Good to know.

[LameGothMom]

I'm playing a Dark Sun campaign with no tank. We have a couple druids, with one Circle of the Moon, and turning into an animal allows for some tanking. It's going okay, but when we run out of animal forms, we're kind of screwed. I know that feel, bro.

[Lockwolfe]

It seems the biggest issue is that you’re all ranged characters. The cleric is going to have to get used to being in melee, and should probably be okay. Same with the rogue. The fighter should keep a rapier close by when enemies close in. You as the wizard should focus on control. As you level up choose spells that can keep enemies at a distance so your party can do what they do best. Hold Person, Web, Fear, Slow, etc. Your party may want to invest in Con and take a look at the Mobile and Tough feats.

[SKW05]

Tonight will be our very first session. Can't wait - I will be applying the advice from this thread, and will let you know how it goes!

I am in a quandary about my next level spell choices. There are just so many cool level 2 spells! I am currently considering:

Blindness/Deafness
Web
Phantasmal Force
Dragon's Breath
Invisibility
Suggestion
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Gift of Gab

I shall see if I survive ok - I'd rather have something more fun in my spellbook than mirror image at the start, but I am mega fragile...

[opaopajr]

Mirror Image is great for survival. Web, if well used, will help the tactics of a range-heavy party. :smallsmile: (However I am personally of the Invisibility & Suggestion camp. :smallbiggrin: I'd play differently.)

[Waterdeep Merch]

Tonight will be our very first session. Can't wait - I will be applying the advice from this thread, and will let you know how it goes!

I am in a quandary about my next level spell choices. There are just so many cool level 2 spells! I am currently considering:

Blindness/Deafness
Web
Phantasmal Force
Dragon's Breath
Invisibility
Suggestion
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Gift of Gab

I shall see if I survive ok - I'd rather have something more fun in my spellbook than mirror image at the start, but I am mega fragile...

On an all-ranged party?

Get that filthy web. Cast it on everything.

EVERYTHING.

You enemies should think they're fighting drow.

[MaxWilson]

Tonight will be our very first session. Can't wait - I will be applying the advice from this thread, and will let you know how it goes!

I am in a quandary about my next level spell choices. There are just so many cool level 2 spells! I am currently considering:

Blindness/Deafness
Web
Phantasmal Force
Dragon's Breath
Invisibility
Suggestion
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Gift of Gab

I shall see if I survive ok - I'd rather have something more fun in my spellbook than mirror image at the start, but I am mega fragile...

Ah, it looks like you've given up on the "non-concentration" requirement. Good. In that case I heartily second (or third?) the suggestion to get Web. Web is fantastic for a ranged-heavy party. Advantage is nice, but difficult terrain and restraint to keep monsters from even getting into melee range of you are even better. If you can leave caltrops or something in the middle of the Web to increase the odds of them having to stop there, or an animated skeleton or a familiar or something else that can prevent the monsters from ending its movement in that space, that is even better. Web lasts for a nice long time so you could potentially just set up Web in a dungeon chokepoint and then make lots of noise to attract as many monsters as possible to where you are.

Don't forget that you can always drop concentration on Web with no action required, e.g. if a bunch of PCs get tangled in it and no monsters do. This makes Web more party-friendly than it appears at first.

Along similar lines, Invisibility is potentially really great because you can e.g. cast it on the Arcane Trickster and let him scout out the dungeon (and lay caltrops/ball bearings everywhere!) so you can find the best place to set up your chokepoint. If you're worried about splitting the party (afraid the Arcane Trickster will get eaten by something that ignores invisibility/stealth, like an Intellect Devourer or a Purple Worm) you can also cast Invisibility on your familiar. It's not terrible in combat either as a get-out-of-jail card, because it sort of acts as a simultaneous Dodge and Disengage (opportunity attacks require seeing the target so monsters without blindsight won't get opportunity attacks against you, and they have disadvantage to attack you because they can't see you), although unfortunately you're then limited in the types of things you can do without breaking Invisibility: if you were an Enchanter or a Necromancer you'd have a lot of non-spell abilities that you could still use to affect a combat without breaking invisibility, but as an Onomancer I think all you could do is spread caltrops/stabilize downed PCs/get in monsters' way/etc. So you mostly want it for the pre-combat recon uses.

Phantasmal Force and Suggestion also have lots of potential if you have ideas for how to use it, e.g. a phantasmal demon appears to attack the biggest baddest monster and draw its attention away from PCs or make it flee, or an illusionary treasure chest appears as a bribe for it, or a dead cow if it looks hungry.

[SKW05]

Well - it could have gone worse!

Standard opening battle - we were faced with a bunch of bridge bullies, shaking down travelers. I got the team permission to cross for free (just Persuasion, not spells) but then our psychopathic fighter decided to make trouble, when only myself and an NPC had crossed.

Sadly, I had walked far too far (it was a very long bridge) and got a lousy initiative roll, so by the time I had got back in range the fight was mostly over. I never even got the chance to Bless or Bane; our cleric received most of the damage, but also scored the highest damage; burning hands is quite awesome at lower levels, isn't it?

Lesson Number 1: next time, make the entertaining (but crazed) warmonger go first. :roy:



Got a nifty spellbook out of it all, though; I can now add Detect Magic, Silent Image, Colour Spray and Sleep. I think preparing Sleep instead of Charm would be best for lower levels. Then next, write in Detect Magic (cool ritual) and finally Silent Image. Now I just have to find the time and the gold. :biggrin:

I wish my spell DC was higher than 13 - I am going to have to be careful about choosing save spells.

[MaxWilson]

Well - it could have gone worse!

Standard opening battle - we were faced with a bunch of bridge bullies, shaking down travelers. I got the team permission to cross for free (just Persuasion, not spells) but then our psychopathic fighter decided to make trouble, when only myself and an NPC had crossed.

Sadly, I had walked far too far (it was a very long bridge) and got a lousy initiative roll, so by the time I had got back in range the fight was mostly over. I never even got the chance to Bless or Bane; our cleric received most of the damage, but also scored the highest damage; burning hands is quite awesome at lower levels, isn't it?

Lesson Number 1: next time, make the entertaining (but crazed) warmonger go first. :roy:

Also lesson: in dangerous situations, cast Bless immediately even before a fight starts, as a precaution.

[Samayu]

Awesome! They had a fight and lived, even without your help! Also, you followed some of the advice - that being to stay out of range. :smallbiggrin:

[HiveStriker]

Also lesson: in dangerous situations, cast Bless immediately even before a fight starts, as a precaution.
I don't think it's an actually sound advice. Not at low levels, when you only have so many slots for the whole day.

Bless is only one minute duration, which is damn short when you are simply expecting strange/hostile behaviour but have to accurate way to predict if/when everything goes to hell.

Worse, although this is extremely rare in low-level campaigns, NPCs could have someone among them that can recognize the spell: best case, they really wanted to attack, he'll try and make a sign to pals to wait a bit more (at least you got a chance to detect that and propagate the information yourself).
Worser case: now they know who is the caster (at least one of them). Cleric has high AC so it's lesser of a deal than, say, for a Wizard, but that's still a precious indication as to who may merit being focus-fired upon first.
Worst case, they weren't agressive per se (hostile =/= agressive) but actually see this cast as a sign YOUR group is gonna attack.

And at higher levels, that kind of knowledgeable enemies, while still fairly uncommon, does become something you can expect occasionally, making this kind of backfire very possible.

So... No, I really don't think that's a good advice, unless you're talking about a Divine Soul Sorcerer that is at least level 7, has Subtle metamagic and specializes in party support.
Or you have 99% chance that fight starts in the next 15 sec and you don't care about enemies knowing about casters.
Or you are currently hidden, finalizing the setup of an ambush and Bless will be the go signal (which is honestly the main case when above situation may actually occur).

[MaxWilson]

I don't think it's an actually sound advice. Not at low levels, when you only have so many slots for the whole day.

Onomancers get a bunch of free casts of Bless throughout the day (equal to their INT mod).

[HiveStriker]

Onomancers get a bunch of free casts of Bless throughout the day (equal to their INT mod).
At level 1 and until level 4 at best, Onomancers get 3 casts. That's good, but not enough to simply cast "just in case".
Onomancers get a crappy Concentration save and a mediocre Hit Die.
Also you don't address at all the significant other drawbacks of casting too early.

And unless you're real sure this is the last fight of the day, I don't see how spending one or two Bless in such a manner is a good idea, considering those could maybe help you later in the day to resolve an encounter, avoid a trap or simply push favorably the balance of another fight.

Of course, once you get level 18 none of that matters anymore... XD

Anyways...
Wasting spells just to try and cope up with a PC's stupid behaviour is really a bad idea for several reasons.
Let him get hurt once so that PC understands by itself the core ideas attached with the notion of "party".
Besides, Cleric (aka "usual primary emergency healer) should never be the one going away from the group... ^^
If that crazy PC repeats behaviour, whatever help party provides, he will die eventually. Except he may bring whole party down with. Solo PC should die solo. Period. :smallbiggrin:

[noob]

Ok, so our (not vastly experienced) group of 4 is about to start a new D&D 5e campaign at level 2. Unearthed Arcana is allowed, and we've all picked our classes.

Except no-one really chose Tank. :smalleek:

I'm an extremely squishy wizard; I fear I will be first to get mauled. So I've unlurked, hoping to get the insight of thsi forum into creative ways to not die.

Firstly, I should say that I think everyone is already too wedded to their characters to change classes.

We have a rogue, Light cleric and a fighter... but one with everything thrown into archery skills. When I chose my spells I didn't realise how tilted toward archery our fighter was... so I fear I did not choose well. And can't change them, sadly. Here is my spellbook:

Friends
Message
Mind Sliver

Charm Person C
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Shield
Silent Image C
Comprehend Languages
Find Familiar
Unseen Servant

Another added wrinkle is that I've chosen Onomancy from UA for my wizardly school - for those who don't know, it will basically let me cast Bless without using a spell slot 3 times a day (yay!) but I now realise it will also mean I'll never get to cast any concentration spell in battle, as Bless is pretty much always too useful not to have on. And our (deeply odd?) Cleric doesn't want it in his spell selection.

So, yeah, I fear our doom. Are there any good non-concentration spells I can get next level that might prop this party up? Or creative ways to get around the lack of a keen melee fighter? Anyone play in team with a hands-off approach like this before, and have insight? All assistance welcomed! :smallsmile:

Are not fighters tanky regardless of weapon choice?
Also was not brute fighter both one good archer and tanky?

[MaxWilson]

At level 1 and until level 4 at best, Onomancers get 3 casts. That's good, but not enough to simply cast "just in case".
Onomancers get a crappy Concentration save and a mediocre Hit Die.
Also you don't address at all the significant other drawbacks of casting too early.

OP is playing in a game where they only had one fight last session, and regrets not being more involved. I doubt running out of free and spell slot-powered Blesses is going to be an issue unless the DM radically changes their style.

Your other objections are too unlikely for me to take seriously. E.g. if enemies are so twitchy that huddling up with the other PCs for a quick Bless (possibly around a corner or otherwise it if view) drives them into attacking, then they would have attacked you anyway, whereas if it stalls them into NOT attacking then you haven't lost anything anyway except free casts or spell slots, to which see above about the DM's apparent pace.

[SKW05]

Are not fighters tanky regardless of weapon choice?
Also was not brute fighter both one good archer and tanky?

Oh the fighter is pretty tanky, right enough - but kept on moving back to get his ranged shots in. Each time he moves back, it gives the enemies he was engaged with time to rethink and go after someone else.



Let him get hurt once so that PC understands by itself the core ideas attached with the notion of "party".

I cannot say that this is not tempting!


OP is playing in a game where they only had one fight last session, and regrets not being more involved. I doubt running out of free and spell slot-powered Blesses is going to be an issue unless the DM radically changes their style.

True - I am in another game with this DM as a paladin, and I've never had to cast Bless more than 3 times; gives you an idea of the combat pacing!

[HiveStriker]

OP is playing in a game where they only had one fight last session, and regrets not being more involved. I doubt running out of free and spell slot-powered Blesses is going to be an issue unless the DM radically changes their style.

Your other objections are too unlikely for me to take seriously. E.g. if enemies are so twitchy that huddling up with the other PCs for a quick Bless (possibly around a corner or otherwise it if view) drives them into attacking, then they would have attacked you anyway, whereas if it stalls them into NOT attacking then you haven't lost anything anyway except free casts or spell slots, to which see above about the DM's apparent pace.
Well, we clearly don't have the same experience, in real life or otherwise.
Maybe you should read history or simply facts reports of press agencies. You'd be surprised at how often situations escalated into violence and death near-instantly for no reason.

And in a world where there are so many harmful magic effects, it's actually even easier to get paranoid if you can't identify what has been cast.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, we clearly don't have the same experience, in real life or otherwise.
Maybe you should read history or simply facts reports of press agencies. You'd be surprised at how often situations escalated into violence and death near-instantly for no reason.

HiveStriker, if you have some actual real world experience or history knowledge that would make your personal perspective more informed on this issue, feel free to link to the outside-verifiable sources this level of expertise would indicate you have at your disposal. Otherwise, this just looks like posturing.

Even then, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. If situations like these can escalate for no reason, as you suggest, then MW's point ("if enemies are so twitchy that huddling up with the other PCs for a quick Bless (possibly around a corner or otherwise it if view) drives them into attacking, then they would have attacked you anyway") is a valid response to your point. Not an inarguable one, but a reasonable point. One that your reasoned response to would be more valuable then pretending that he must not know what he's talking about.

[noob]

So after a TPK you might reroll to take an abjurer wizard to have the same tankyness as the average party member(instead of being less tough)?

[opaopajr]

So after a TPK you might reroll to take an abjurer wizard to have the same tankyness as the average party member(instead of being less tough)?

It's an option, but not one I would bother with. :smallsmile: Distance and running the alternate pillars of Explore & Social can do way more this early, IME. But it depends on their comfort level to think laterally or shmooze. :smallbiggrin:

As for the new spellbook spells, yeah, that would be the order I would bother learning them. First Sleep, next Detect Magic, then Silent Image... and finally save money dor future spells. :smalltongue: (It is tragic as Color Spray used to be a combat-ending staple of yesteryear. Today, no. :smallfrown:)

Remember, Sleep goes well with Rope or Manacles! :smallcool: Also be consciencious about your targeting! It is indiscriminant, and starts from lowest HP on up!

[HiveStriker]

HiveStriker, if you have some actual real world experience or history knowledge that would make your personal perspective more informed on this issue, feel free to link to the outside-verifiable sources this level of expertise would indicate you have at your disposal. Otherwise, this just looks like posturing.

Even then, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. If situations like these can escalate for no reason, as you suggest, then MW's point ("if enemies are so twitchy that huddling up with the other PCs for a quick Bless (possibly around a corner or otherwise it if view) drives them into attacking, then they would have attacked you anyway") is a valid response to your point. Not an inarguable one, but a reasonable point. One that your reasoned response to would be more valuable then pretending that he must not know what he's talking about.
{Scrubbed}
Watch any movie (or read actual stories ^^ although those are rare) with standoffs, which sometimes end in bloodbath, sometimes not.

I don't need to justify, it's simply basics, sorry.
Hostility is something entirely different from agressivity.

You can perfectly be hostile with someone but not lay a finger on him nor even raise voice.
But if you consider someone is capable of hurting you (physically or otherwise, although physically is usually the one people are considering), you'll definitely interpret any suspicious or unusual movement with much more chance to view it as a decisive sign of upcoming threat.

That's exactly the kind of things I was talking about: casting a spell without agreement or at least clearly displaying the intent, in a world when at least half the spell indicate at best a tentative at manipulation, at worst a tentative at hurt, is definitely enough to make situations escalate when it was actually unnecessary.

For the same reason, it's the "enemies would have attacked anyways" that is plain posturing.
You can easily find, or imagine, situations when you DON'T want to attack, because you know you'd have low chance to win the fight... But you'll still push yourself to it if you think that there is already a life-threatening situation that you can't disarm/avoid anyways.

Confer one of Sun Tzu's precept to put his army in a situation when they can possibly survive if they give their all but are otherwise condemned. Or the Japanese proverb saying that "if in desperate situation, a mouse could even bite the cat hunting it".

[MaxWilson]

Well, we clearly don't have the same experience, in real life or otherwise.
Maybe you should read history or simply facts reports of press agencies. You'd be surprised at how often situations escalated into violence and death near-instantly for no reason.

Maybe it's the OP's past and future experiences which matter here, and not yours or mine?

[Willie the Duck]

I don't need to justify, it's simply basics, sorry.
<and then an argument for position (addressed below)>

You say this, but previously you failed to make an actual argument. Now you have made one, and people are more likely to be convinced because you have. Thank you for doing so, regardless of how we got here.

For the same reason, it's the "enemies would have attacked anyways" that is plain posturing.
No, Max had a position, stated it, and laid out an explanation for why he thought so. Agree or disagree, he showed his work and didn't suggest disagreement with his position would be based on ignorance.


Hostility is something entirely different from agressivity.

You can perfectly be hostile with someone but not lay a finger on him nor even raise voice.
But if you consider someone is capable of hurting you (physically or otherwise, although physically is usually the one people are considering), you'll definitely interpret any suspicious or unusual movement with much more chance to view it as a decisive sign of upcoming threat.

That's exactly the kind of things I was talking about: casting a spell without agreement or at least clearly displaying the intent, in a world when at least half the spell indicate at best a tentative at manipulation, at worst a tentative at hurt, is definitely enough to make situations escalate when it was actually unnecessary.
...
You can easily find, or imagine, situations when you DON'T want to attack, because you know you'd have low chance to win the fight... But you'll still push yourself to it if you think that there is already a life-threatening situation that you can't disarm/avoid anyways.

Confer one of Sun Tzu's precept to put his army in a situation when they can possibly survive if they give their all but are otherwise condemned. Or the Japanese proverb saying that "if in desperate situation, a mouse could even bite the cat hunting it".

An argument put forth, thanks. I generally agree that in a world like D&D --especially if we assume that the spells in the PHB, XGtE, etc. are the only spells that exist*-- casting a spell in general is a clench-inducing action if one is at a twitchy-trigger-finger situation. I'd place it more in the 'open a box/door' level of tension-raising than a 'draw a gun' level -- if you did so all the people with weapons will turn to you and start analyzing what you just started doing, but only in the tensest of situations would the act alone make the bulletsarrows, spells, etc. start flying. In other words, I think it's probably splitting the difference/situational between your and Max's cases, probably with a lot of variation.
*my groups tend to assume that the PHB spells are simply those pertinent to adventurers, and that there are hundred's of 'Rary's Telekinetic Butter-Churn Operation' and 'Create Toilet Paper' spells that exist but are not mentioned, but that's conjecture.

[noob]

You say this, but previously you failed to make an actual argument. Now you have made one, and people are more likely to be convinced because you have. Thank you for doing so, regardless of how we got here.

No, Max had a position, stated it, and laid out an explanation for why he thought so. Agree or disagree, he showed his work and didn't suggest disagreement with his position would be based on ignorance.



An argument put forth, thanks. I generally agree that in a world like D&D --especially if we assume that the spells in the PHB, XGtE, etc. are the only spells that exist*-- casting a spell in general is a clench-inducing action if one is at a twitchy-trigger-finger situation. I'd place it more in the 'open a box/door' level of tension-raising than a 'draw a gun' level -- if you did so all the people with weapons will turn to you and start analyzing what you just started doing, but only in the tensest of situations would the act alone make the bulletsarrows, spells, etc. start flying. In other words, I think it's probably splitting the difference/situational between your and Max's cases, probably with a lot of variation.
*my groups tend to assume that the PHB spells are simply those pertinent to adventurers, and that there are hundred's of 'Rary's Telekinetic Butter-Churn Operation' and 'Create Toilet Paper' spells that exist but are not mentioned, but that's conjecture.

I want a create ice cream spell.
Really I want that spell if it can be created.

[SKW05]

Maybe it's the OP's past and future experiences which matter here, and not yours or mine?

I can say that the NPC's rarely react to spell-casting in this DMs world. They tend to react after the spell was cast.

It's not always the case, but as a rule of thumb...


I want a create ice cream spell.
Really I want that spell if it can be created.

Prestidigitation; but eat it fast - it vanishes in one round! On the plus side - no calories. On the minus - horrific brain freeze!

[MaxWilson]

I can say that the NPC's rarely react to spell-casting in this DMs world. They tend to react after the spell was cast.

It's not always the case, but as a rule of thumb...

It's worth trying a precautionary Bless then, next time you're about to split the party in the face of potential hostiles like at the bridge. See if you can quietly Bless your buddies without triggering an immediate attack. If they do immediately attack, at least you're together. If they attack after you split up, at least you're participating via Bless. If they don't *ever* attack, well, at least you have lots of Bless castings available so it wasn't much of a waste.