Making the most of Sacrifice from BoVD

[WeirdoC]

I'm playing a Dread Necromancer in a new campaign (which started at ECL 5), and my DM has given me the okay to use the ritual sacrifice reward system from BoVD.

The obvious big two from the standard reward table are the Dark Craft XP and the once-per-character wish. There's also a repeatable limited wish for hitting a DC 40 during the sacrifice, however, and that's the place where I think it can really shine. I would like help in figuring out how to make the most of this resource without getting into blatant cheese territory--repeatable no-XP castings of limited wish is already good enough of a resource that I don't want to risk it getting ban-hammered from abuse.

Things I have already thought of that are explicitly doable within the confines of limited wish:

Getting unhallow on my sacrifice chamber well before I could cast it myself
Meeting spell prerequisites for magic item creation that I couldn't get otherwise


Things I have already thought of that I believe are well within the "other effect whose power level is in line" wording:

Creating mundane gear, crafting materials, etc. (Wish can turn 5,000 XP into 25,000 GP of mundane gear per the spell description, so turning 300 XP into 1,500 GP with limited wish seems perfectly reasonable. Not sure why they didn't just put that in as one of the explicit spell abilities...)
Making minor magic items and/or upgrading existing gear (Same 1,500 GP limit as mentioned above.)
Converting non-masterwork weapons and/or armor into masterwork versions like a mass version of the Pathfinder masterwork transformation spell, to use for gearing up my undead mooks. I'd cap the upgrade value at 1,000 GP in accordance with the material component portion of the limited wish description.


So, this is where you folks come in. What are some other good uses for an XP-free limited wish that will get me the best bang for my sacrificial buck without getting the DMG thrown at me?

[Tvtyrant]

The best use IMO is planar binding, yoy can get pit fiends or Zargon the Returner early on by abusing sacrifices.

Get a wand with Guidance of the Avatar to add 20 to your skill check.

Leadership lets you meet the audience prereqs. An imp familar can get you the "partially eaten by a demon" req.

[Zaq]

My Speeloxhuu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22441645&postcount=106) build from an old Iron Chef round was designed specifically to abuse the ever-living crap out of the sacrifice rules. The build itself is pretty goofy (intentionally so), but maybe you can take away a few insights from it.

[WeirdoC]

Not a lot of responses, but two really good ones. :smallsmile:


An imp familar can get you the "partially eaten by a demon" req.

Aha! Hadn't thought of that. Although I think technically an imp wouldn't work, as it's a devil rather than a demon. A quasit familiar would definitely work RAW, though. I actually skipped right over that on the table, thinking it was more trouble to achieve than the +1 warranted, forgetting all about the fact that I will have my own personal demon as a class feature in a few levels. :smallbiggrin:


My Speeloxhuu build from an old Iron Chef round was designed specifically to abuse the ever-living crap out of the sacrifice rules. The build itself is pretty goofy (intentionally so), but maybe you can take away a few insights from it.

That build is absurd. By which I mean absurdly fun. :) Unfortunately, much of it depends on having a demon for your patron (to get the best planar allies), and my character is already NE and devoted to Afflux. I needed that to take Arcane Disciple and add those gloriously tasty Deathbound spells to my Dread Necro spell list. But yes, going demonic patron and getting Sibriexes for grafts and Extract Demonic Essence for XP would definitely be more optimized.

The Subduing Strike feat you took at 1st level caught my eye, though, as I had kind of overlooked the benefits of dealing nonlethal damage in the first place rather than having to stabilize enemies dropped with lethal. I'm too feat-starved in my build to actually grab that, but adding Merciful to my melee weapon would have a similar effect.

[Zaq]

Yeah, you don’t have to necessarily build Speeloxhuu in order to use his tricks. Sibriexes are fantastic if you’re immune to their madness effect. Dark crafting gold/XP can get you very well kitted out. A familiar can make a sacrifice too as long as its K: Religion check is any good. That sort of thing.

[WeirdoC]

Dark crafting gold/XP can get you very well kitted out..

Yeah, I'm very excited about the dark craft XP. It's what swung me toward going through with a crafter build. The dark craft gold is nice, but not anywhere close to being on par with the XP reward. Per the book:


Only a single application of dark craft experience points and dark craft gold pieces can be applied toward a magic item's creation process.

That's really badly worded, but I think the RAI is clearly that only a single sacrifice's gold reward can be applied to a magic item. At only 5 times the DC in GP being awarded, even a DC (50), Wish-level sacrifice would only result in a 250 GP reward. The same sacrifice would provide 150 XP, enough to completely cover the XP cost of crafting up to a 3,750 GP item.

[Zaq]

The "single application" clause is 100% something you have to discuss with your GM. There are many reasonable interpretations, and the RAW doesn't unambiguously point to any of them. A few examples of reasonable interpretations:


You can only use dark gold OR dark XP, not both, to make one item.
Only one person can contribute dark gold or dark XP.
All the dark gold or dark XP you use must come from a single sacrifice.
All the dark gold or dark XP you use must be applied at once, meaning that it must be available to you prior to when you actually start paying costs.


Your presumed interpretation is valid, but it's not the only option, so I'd definitely have that conversation with the one person who gets to make the choice before going all the way into it.

Incidentally, do you happen to have feats to spare? I can get you a +11 insight bonus to your K: Religion checks (and actually a bunch of other checks as well) on command if you've got two feats to spare.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't have it statted out online, but I had a character that combined the sacrifice rules with being a Thrallherd to get access to all arcane spells 6th level or lower at will as well as planar binding. Thralls are willing, and there is an unlimited supply of them.

Playing a cult leader is extremely fun, but my group fell apart quickly.

Edit: One way to abuse the sacrifice rules is by binding up. Make a deal with a HD6 creature so it is willing, then sacrifice it to get a 12HD creature, then sacrifice it to get a 18hd creature. You get a substantial boost for willing creatures and high HD creatures, abd thanks to planar binding being about charisma you can boost that to the point where you always win. Especially with low charisma brutes, the sac rules care about HD not charisma so the biggest, ugliest chain is easy to pull off.

[Jowgen]

Recently looked into this, and we came up with a pretty reliable way to hit a DC 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?597291-Making-a-DC-100-knowledge-Religion-check) on the sacrifice.

In regards to the "single application" wording, as others have mentioned, is something you really need to clear up.

My argument is that the intent was to prevent the mixing of Dark Exp and Gold, as otherwise a character could make items out of basically nothing.

More pracitcally, if it was on a "per sacrifice" basis, that would require the player/GM to keep a detailed list of all the sacrifice result ever, rather than just a simple running total as you do with normal exp (i.e. a departure from similar existing mechanics). More on the dysfunctional side, if you get 60 dark craft exp on one sacrifice and then use 58 of that to craft something, what happens to the remaining 2? Are they lost because of you've used the application, or are you forever carrying it around until you've spent the exact ammount left?

My point is that the "per sacrifice" reading creates a whole bunch of needless complications that don't line up with anything else in game ever. Why would the writer, or why should you at the table, deliberately choose the more complicated, cumbersome reading when the equally valid reading works nicely and simply? Kind of an Occam's Razor, if not quite.

[javcs]

The best Sacrifice exploit is the DC 30 check for an evil outsider as per Planar Ally. Planar Ally has a 12 RHD limit, which allows you to get a 10 RHD Efreet and its 3 Wishes.

That DC 30 can be reached as early as level 1, especially if one employs the various sacrifice element modifiers to boost your results. After all, you only need a net Knowledge (Religion) modifier of +10 on sacrifices, and be willing to make enough sacrifices to make enough rolls that you eventually get a natural 20 on the die - which, let's be honest, if you're willing to sacrifice one person, you're willing to sacrifice more than one person. 4 ranks, +Int modifier (easily 2-4), +1 for a 1-5HD sacrifice victim, +1 ceremony lasting at least an hour, +2 sacrifice conducted on an altar,


And, yes, this can technically be used to start an Infinite Wish Loop early and on the cheap, but that will most likely draw a DM Smiting. So don't use it for an Infinite Wish Loop, just perform additional sacrifices for another Efreet when you need more Wishes.


A only slightly more difficult DC 35 check gets you a Greater Planar Ally.
But remember, when you sacrifice for a (Least/Greater) Planar Ally line they serve for one hour per HD of the sacrificial victim.



Unless you're in a massive time crunch and need a Wish right this instant, there's basically no point to ever going for the one-time Wish. And even then, you're probably still better off going for the Planar Ally and getting Wishes from an Efreet, or other Evil Outsider who is capable of using Wish.




--

And yeah, the Dark Craft XP/GP rules are worded poorly. You may want to consider making friends with an Artificer - they can disassemble your Dark Craft items and convert that, possibly very limited XP per item, into their normal pool of crafting XP. In light of the potential limitations, you might want to funnel Dark Craft XP/GP into things like scrolls, so you can fully fund them with Dark Craft resources, instead producing an effectively unlimited amount of crafting XP for your Artificer friend, given time; well, it's only limited by the number of sacrifices you are capable of and willing to make.

[StevenC21]

The best use IMO is planar binding, yoy can get pit fiends or Zargon the Returner early on by abusing sacrifices.


Please explain? I don't see any 'HD buffed GPB' effects?

[Tvtyrant]

Please explain? I don't see any 'HD buffed GPB' effects?

I mixed up planar binding and planar ally. Pit fiend and zargon both fit within greater planar binding/GPA HD restrictions, 18. But ally doesn't let you choose the type of thing you get, so it is a lot weaker.

[Feantar]

A small snag here, doesn't the deity bestowing the ally choose what is actually called instead of the caster? Or do the sacrifice rules specify you choose?

[WeirdoC]

The "single application" clause is 100% something you have to discuss with your GM. There are many reasonable interpretations, and the RAW doesn't unambiguously point to any of them. A few examples of reasonable interpretations:


You can only use dark gold OR dark XP, not both, to make one item.
Only one person can contribute dark gold or dark XP.
All the dark gold or dark XP you use must come from a single sacrifice.
All the dark gold or dark XP you use must be applied at once, meaning that it must be available to you prior to when you actually start paying costs.


Your presumed interpretation is valid, but it's not the only option, so I'd definitely have that conversation with the one person who gets to make the choice before going all the way into it.

Incidentally, do you happen to have feats to spare? I can get you a +11 insight bonus to your K: Religion checks (and actually a bunch of other checks as well) on command if you've got two feats to spare.

You're quite right. Those are also pretty reasonable interpretations. I'll sit down with my DM to talk about it.

I don't know if I really have two feats to spare, but I'd like to hear what they are to see if maybe they're worth sacrificing something to fit them in.


The best Sacrifice exploit is the DC 30 check for an evil outsider as per Planar Ally. Planar Ally has a 12 RHD limit, which allows you to get a 10 RHD Efreet and its 3 Wishes.

That DC 30 can be reached as early as level 1, especially if one employs the various sacrifice element modifiers to boost your results. After all, you only need a net Knowledge (Religion) modifier of +10 on sacrifices, and be willing to make enough sacrifices to make enough rolls that you eventually get a natural 20 on the die - which, let's be honest, if you're willing to sacrifice one person, you're willing to sacrifice more than one person. 4 ranks, +Int modifier (easily 2-4), +1 for a 1-5HD sacrifice victim, +1 ceremony lasting at least an hour, +2 sacrifice conducted on an altar,

And, yes, this can technically be used to start an Infinite Wish Loop early and on the cheap, but that will most likely draw a DM Smiting. So don't use it for an Infinite Wish Loop, just perform additional sacrifices for another Efreet when you need more Wishes.

A only slightly more difficult DC 35 check gets you a Greater Planar Ally.
But remember, when you sacrifice for a (Least/Greater) Planar Ally line they serve for one hour per HD of the sacrificial victim.

Unless you're in a massive time crunch and need a Wish right this instant, there's basically no point to ever going for the one-time Wish. And even then, you're probably still better off going for the Planar Ally and getting Wishes from an Efreet, or other Evil Outsider who is capable of using Wish.

--

And yeah, the Dark Craft XP/GP rules are worded poorly. You may want to consider making friends with an Artificer - they can disassemble your Dark Craft items and convert that, possibly very limited XP per item, into their normal pool of crafting XP. In light of the potential limitations, you might want to funnel Dark Craft XP/GP into things like scrolls, so you can fully fund them with Dark Craft resources, instead producing an effectively unlimited amount of crafting XP for your Artificer friend, given time; well, it's only limited by the number of sacrifices you are capable of and willing to make.

Planar ally explicitly sends an outsider of the deity's choice, not the petitioner's. The petitioner can ask for a specific one, but it's entirely up to the deity, and is therefore DM's choice. If the DM chooses to hand you three free Efreet wishes a day starting at Level 1 for sacrifices, I doubt starting an infinite wish loop would be any more likely to bring down a smiting. :smallbiggrin:

The Artificer friend is a great idea, but I'm pretty sure the only person at my table who would consider playing one is me. Definitely something to keep in mind if things change, though.


A small snag here, doesn't the deity bestowing the ally choose what is actually called instead of the caster? Or do the sacrifice rules specify you choose?

Yep, deity chooses. As the petitioner, you can ask for a specific creature by name, but even that is just a request that the deity can promptly ignore. I think it's intended as a bit of a roleplay device, in that you could ask for the same outsider each time and build long-term rapport with them.

It should be noted that deity descriptions sometimes actually include a list of the deity's heralds and allies, which the DM should probably stick to for the purpose of the planar ally spells. My character is worshiping Afflux, whose "planar allies are ravids, night hags, and nightwings."