Things you can stack with Rage?

[BlueWitch]

Besides SPELLS of course.

I mean like, other class features. Say you're a Barbarian or Bloodrager.

What other class "transformations" or "power ups" are out there that you can use to stack with Rage? So far I think there's:

~Mutagen (via Alchemist)
~Frenzy (via Frenzied Berserker)
~Animal Form (via Druid)

--

Are there anything else? Preferably from 3.5 Prestige Classes, but Pathfinder stuff is also okay.

[Bohandas]

I think the bonus from rage is untyped (except for the bonus to will saves), so EVERYTHING stacks with it

[Dimers]

You're looking for short-lived boosts to physical combat? Depending on alignment, sohei's ki frenzy and Singh Rager's frenzy, both in OA. Fist of the Forest's feral trance, in CChamp. Bear Warrior in CW adds a twist to an existing rage. CW Dervish's dervish dance. Actually, a lot of stuff in CW might qualify one way or another -- kensai, for example, also has a brief spiritual/emotional powerup, bladedancer has bladedancing ...

[Psyren]

I think the bonus from rage is untyped (except for the bonus to will saves), so EVERYTHING stacks with it

Not quite - it's actually a morale bonus. That is a rare bonus type for ability scores though, so there's a lot that will stack with it, including enhancement, inherent, alchemical etc. But the type does matter for other things, e.g. explaining why undead barbarians don't work too well.

[Aotrs Commander]

Not quite - it's actually a morale bonus. That is a rare bonus type for ability scores though, so there's a lot that will stack with it, including enhancement, inherent, alchemical etc. But the type does matter for other things, e.g. explaining why undead barbarians don't work too well.

Depends whether the base is 3.5 or Pathfinder (or unchained PF, I guess!) as the OP appears to be drawing from both sources; it's untyped in 3.5.



(I must confess to being a bit baffled why PF thought it necessary to make it a morale bonus - I mean, the aforementioned Undead barbarians for a start - they don't even HAVE Elation to spam... I mean, it's not even like the barbarian needed a nerf...! Heck, they even sort of went back on that with the unchained barb, so...? Among all their really good (and nickable) ideas, they had some very strange ones...)

[PraxisVetli]

Beserks from Deities and Demigods, pg 201 get Battle Fury, which is basically rage.

[Psyren]

Depends whether the base is 3.5 or Pathfinder (or unchained PF, I guess!) as the OP appears to be drawing from both sources; it's untyped in 3.5.

I assumed PF since the OP mentioned Bloodragers - I didn't see that "3.5 or PF" in the OP at the time.


(I must confess to being a bit baffled why PF thought it necessary to make it a morale bonus - I mean, the aforementioned Undead barbarians for a start - they don't even HAVE Elation to spam... I mean, it's not even like the barbarian needed a nerf...! Heck, they even sort of went back on that with the unchained barb, so...? Among all their really good (and nickable) ideas, they had some very strange ones...)

It's a principle called future-proofing design: it lets them interact Barbarian's Rage with things that care about [emotion] effects and morale effects without needing to explicitly state it every time. Without that, you need a clause like the one in Calm Emotions that says "this works on barbarian rage" in everything else you make for time immemorial, like the Android race's Emotionless quality, the Pessimism spell, and the Archdevil Belial's "Hedonistic Hope" ability. Typing the bonus lets them avoid all of that.

In truth, Calm Emotions didn't need that line either, but because 3.5 didn't future-proof their design like this, the spell text includes it, and so PF copied that text over.



(I must confess to being a bit baffled why PF thought it necessary to make it a morale bonus - I mean, the aforementioned Undead barbarians for a start - they don't even HAVE Elation to spam... I mean, it's not even like the barbarian needed a nerf...! Heck, they even sort of went back on that with the unchained barb, so...? Among all their really good (and nickable) ideas, they had some very strange ones...)

Quite honestly I'm not a fan of the Unchained Barbarian. I understand that there are a number of folks who hated recalculating Strength and Constitution on the fly, but it was never that difficult for me and just felt more realistic than abstracting it to generic attack bonuses and temp HP. The Unchained Barbarian for example is unable to pull off some pretty iconic barbarian moves, like getting mad enough to break out of prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), which just makes it not feel like a Barbarian at all to me.

[Ramza00]

Thrallherd, grab a cohort and have the cohort heal you and buff you even further. There are several ways to build a cohort.

But just imagine a Vitalist cohort with a Greater Mind Stone of Expansion (4,000 gp.) The vitalist keeps you alive, but also can cast on you the double expansion for 7 power points giving you two size increases. Also the Vitalist can add other people you into Expansion for +1 pp for each person.

Oh the Vitalist can also cast Astral Construct with a Greater Mind Stone of Astral Construct (4,000 GP) and you two share hitpoint totals almost due to the collective Vitalist feature. This collective allows you to reroute healing that affects multiple people to one single target which is you. But the vitalist also has Share Pain as a psionic power and thus half of your damage goes to the Astral Construct automatically. And the Astral Construct lasts 1 hour per level if you use the feat Advanced Construct (though after a battle is triggered the durations becomes 1 round per level.)

Thus you can do a wolverine+colossus fastball special where you are the main bruiser and the astral construct also exists for more battlefield control. And your Astral Construct from levels 5 to 8 is Large, but after a double expansion (for ACs can be in the collective) you now have you who is 2 sizes larger due to expansion, and now your Large AC is Gargantuan with 20 foot reach due to size.

:smallwink:

----

Oh psionic rage under the power Endorphin Surge is available to many classes including Vitalist. It too also gets the Network Descriptor without doing anything extra besides being a Vitalist power. If you go the Endorphin Surge route it does not stack with Barbarian Rage for both are Moral Bonuses to Strength and Constitution. But if you took a variant class feature / archetype that moves that bonus to Str to something else you are in stacking business again.

[ShurikVch]

Also:
Desperate Fury from Outcast Champion (Races of Destiny)
Primal Scream from Wildrunner (Races of the Wild)
Shifting from Bloodclaw Master (Tome of Battle)
Sworn Foe from Corrupt Avenger (Heroes of Horror)
Warrior Cry from Rage Mage (Complete Warrior)
Demonic Fury via Demonhair Shirt (Dragon #356; 26000 gp; required to spend two daily uses of Rage)
Shifting - Shifter's racial SA
Blood Frenzy - Carcass Eater (Libris Mortis) - this SA may be gained via Wild Shape, polymorphing, or lycanthropy


I assumed PF since the OP mentioned Bloodragers - I didn't see that "3.5 or PF" in the OP at the time.Actually, there is Bloodrager template in the Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised; it grants Rage

[Aotrs Commander]

It's a principle called future-proofing design: it lets them interact Barbarian's Rage with things that care about [emotion] effects and morale effects without needing to explicitly state it every time. Without that, you need a clause like the one in Calm Emotions that says "this works on barbarian rage" in everything else you make for time immemorial, like the Android race's Emotionless quality, the Pessimism spell, and the Archdevil Belial's "Hedonistic Hope" ability. Typing the bonus lets them avoid all of that.

In truth, Calm Emotions didn't need that line either, but because 3.5 didn't future-proof their design like this, the spell text includes it, and so PF copied that text over.

Okay, that IS a fair point I'd not considered... Those sorts of effects come up so rarely that, like, they have literally never come up in the 19 years I've been playing 3.x. So - unusually - that angle had just not struck me.

...

Hmm. On the one hand, like I said, fair point; on the other, my player(s) will LITERALLY lynch me if Elation stops stacking on the barbarian, so...

Future proof the other way? Make it a "rage" bonus and then note that anything that suppresses morale bonuses also suppresses rage bonuses or even it occurs to me as I type that it might just be easier just have a line which says "any effect that suppresses or removes morale bonuses suppresses or removes rage," since otherwise... Something that suppresses the barbarian's morale bonuses would by PF RAW leave them at a -2 AC while still "raging," which seems a bit wrong.




Quite honestly I'm not a fan of the Unchained Barbarian. I understand that there are a number of folks who hated recalculating Strength and Constitution on the fly, but it was never that difficult for me and just felt more realistic than abstracting it to generic attack bonuses and temp HP. The Unchained Barbarian for example is unable to pull off some pretty iconic barbarian moves, like getting mad enough to break out of prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), which just makes it not feel like a Barbarian at all to me.

Yeah, I'd have added "and on Strength checks" myself. 'Course that means you still need that "barbarian's rage" clause everywhere you have Calm Emotions or summat again...

Actually, I think this is one of those instances where you have to actually have a specific clause SOMEWHERE.

(You'd nearly be better with adding an "emotion-affecting" keyword like we have with "mind-affecting" to everything, though as pendantic as I am even in the... probably coming to plural hundreds of hours I've spent sorting out 3.Aotrs these last weeks, I'm not sure even I can be arsed to do that...)

[zfs]

Hmm, it doesn't give any stat boosts by itself, but Hellreaver's Holy Fury fits the "You're making me angry" vibe of Rage, Frenzy, etc.

[Psyren]

Future proof the other way? Make it a "rage" bonus and then note that anything that suppresses morale bonuses also suppresses rage bonuses or even it occurs to me as I type that it might just be easier just have a line which says "any effect that suppresses or removes morale bonuses suppresses or removes rage," since otherwise... Something that suppresses the barbarian's morale bonuses would by PF RAW leave them at a -2 AC while still "raging," which seems a bit wrong.

1) I think the game has too many bonus types as it is.

2) The whole Rage ability is a morale effect (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9svt), and thus anything that blocks morale effects does block the -2 AC, even if that part of the ability is untyped.



(You'd nearly be better with adding an "emotion-affecting" keyword like we have with "mind-affecting" to everything, though as pendantic as I am even in the... probably coming to plural hundreds of hours I've spent sorting out 3.Aotrs these last weeks, I'm not sure even I can be arsed to do that...)

Uh, they DID (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic/#Descriptor) add an "emotion-affecting" descriptor :smalltongue:

"That's a stupid rule and they should change it!"
"They did!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)



Actually, there is Bloodrager template in the Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised; it grants Rage

Well OP also mentioned Alchemists and Mutagens. I'm sure I can dig through all kinds of obscure 3.5 sources to find those words too, but Occam's Razor suggests they were thinking of PF when they wrote the former.

[Aotrs Commander]

1) I think the game has too many bonus types as it is.

I concur.


2) The whole Rage ability is a morale effect (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9svt), and thus anything that blocks morale effects does block the -2 AC, even if that part of the ability is untyped.

Probably would have been better to put that in the description, which is what I've done now. (I.e., it now explictly and clearly says anything that suppresses morale effects suppress all of rage (including the penalties).

(One thing my own rules ublishign taught me is always to make sure that you avoid "implied, but not stated.")



(I also cut Berserker Strength (3.5 ACF) a break, and made it not only trigger on half hits, but if you use something that removes morale bonuses (as opposed to suppressing them), it only works on the barbarian until the start of his next turn.)




Uh, they DID (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic/#Descriptor) add an "emotion-affecting" descriptor :smalltongue:

"That's a stupid rule and they should change it!"
"They did!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

...

*skulldesk*

'Course they did.

Whelp, I'mma not rush to translate all the emotion spells over to 3.A rules just to add a keyword at the moment. Like I say - it's kinda already at, like, several hundred pages now (it's taken me a freaking WEEK to get weapons sorted...) And with today's Having To Codify Stuff That Actually Wasn't Clear, I only finished that and there's still so much left to go.

I wouldn't mind, but I only started off on this oddessey to port the Pathfinder Soulknife across, and I've not even done that yet! (Everytime I get a bit more done, I have to do something ELSE, which ties into something ELSe and then something ELSE...)

[ViperMagnum357]

For Epic levels, the Bloodscaled Fury from Draconomicon enhances your Rage bonuses to Str and Con. Because of the peculiar wording, you can make a RAW argument that this enhances ALL of your abilities with 'Rage' in the title, which could get a little nuts-and help a martial from falling further behind Epic caster levels.

If you are okay with licensed material, and are already looking at Epic levels, the Dragon Ravager PRC from the Revised Bestiary of Krynn (Dragonlance setting) is an option for a True Dragon that is Adult age category or older. 1st level gives Draconic Rage, virtually identical to standard Barbarian rage, except the +6 Str and Con is untyped and under the name of a different special ability, allowing it to stack. 4th level improves the bonuses to +10, and each level in the PRC provides 1 use per day.

[Psyren]

Probably would have been better to put that in the description, which is what I've done now. (I.e., it now explictly and clearly says anything that suppresses morale effects suppress all of rage (including the penalties).

(One thing my own rules ublishign taught me is always to make sure that you avoid "implied, but not stated.")

Certainly - but if you do miss something on the front end, clarifying or fixing it in FAQ/errata is the next best thing.


(I also cut Berserker Strength (3.5 ACF) a break, and made it not only trigger on half hits, but if you use something that removes morale bonuses (as opposed to suppressing them), it only works on the barbarian until the start of his next turn.)

Agreed - if the Barbarian's bonus is coming from an ongoing effect, then it's only fair that you should have to cancel the whole effect (or suppress it for a defined duration) for that bonus to stop.




...

*skulldesk*

'Course they did.

Whelp, I'mma not rush to translate all the emotion spells over to 3.A rules just to add a keyword at the moment. Like I say - it's kinda already at, like, several hundred pages now (it's taken me a freaking WEEK to get weapons sorted...) And with today's Having To Codify Stuff That Actually Wasn't Clear, I only finished that and there's still so much left to go.

I wouldn't mind, but I only started off on this oddessey to port the Pathfinder Soulknife across, and I've not even done that yet! (Everytime I get a bit more done, I have to do something ELSE, which ties into something ELSe and then something ELSE...)

PF already converted all the core ones to retroactively add descriptors like [pain] and [emotion]; if you look those up on the PFSRD or PRD they should have them.

If what you're concerned about are non-core 3.5 spells that should get those descriptors... yeah, can't help you, though it should be fairly straightforward from their descriptions.

[darkdragoon]

Feral Trance from Fist of the Forest.

[Oberron]

Besides SPELLS of course.

I mean like, other class features. Say you're a Barbarian or Bloodrager.

What other class "transformations" or "power ups" are out there that you can use to stack with Rage? So far I think there's:

~Mutagen (via Alchemist)
~Frenzy (via Frenzied Berserker)
~Animal Form (via Druid)

--

Are there anything else? Preferably from 3.5 Prestige Classes, but Pathfinder stuff is also okay.

I played a pf game and was running a barbarian alchemist. Using a feat that switched my "casting stat" to strength I became a rage mage. Using the alchemist for buffs I had the following for str buffs.

Rage (moral)
Mutagen (alchemical)
Enlarge person (infusion size bonus)
Bull's str (infusion enchantment)

Can't remember the others on hand but those where the big ones. And bulls str will get replaced by a belt of giants str

[Aotrs Commander]

PF already converted all the core ones to retroactively add descriptors like [pain] and [emotion]; if you look those up on the PFSRD or PRD they should have them.

If what you're concerned about are non-core 3.5 spells that should get those descriptors... yeah, can't help you, though it should be fairly straightforward from their descriptions.

Sure, which simplifies the job - but it still means I have to find those spells, copy them across to the 3.A spells document into that document's format, scour that document, PHBII and SpC (as the 3.A spells already has all the spells from every other splatbook, that happened the LAST time I had one of these periods...) for any others (but hey, only three sources to check) and then go into my master spell list spread sheet so it amends the index...

I mean, it's probably a couple hours of work... But I still have stuff to do like re-sort the 3.5 domains1 to remove all the "turn this sort of creature" abilities, probably copy the base equipment and armour lists over so that, given as I've just done a new weapons table, it'll all be in one place I can hand to the players so they don't have to sort through more than one book, sort out more rogue talents (I only grabbed a handful on the little pass I made before this major revision started), finish revising the Complete Psi classes, have a pass at Spellthief/Shugenja/Spirit Shaman/Wu Jen and my Scout, copy up the UT marksman, sort something out somewhere between UT's society mind and PF tactician, do the soul knife shield blade archtype and blade skills and then do proper spell lists for the Hexblase, Spelltheif and any of the others that don't have one properly in the spreadsheet, and maybe revise a boat-load of the psionics feats to PF standards... And this assumes I don't encounter MORE stuff I need to do on the way. (Been doing this for several hours a day after work every day I've been home for the past... Several weeks, actually, and only sic days out of seven because I've been forcing myself to NOT do it on Sundays...)



Sad part is, just you mentioning it probably means I WILL do at at some point since now it'll be like a nigglign feeling in the back of my head.



1While many of the classes are now moved over to PF standard, the (big) primary casters have NOT been touched (okay, I silightly twiddled with druid wildshape a little bit to have sensible progression and I did add some minor capstones (but cleric wasn't even allowed the extra domain of PF's proxy, just the fluff), since they emphatically DO NOT need the help with all of 3.5's spells to hand, plus some occasional ones form PF. So there is no way in hell I'm letting clerics have the So Much Better domain powers PF has, no freakin' chance!

[Psyren]

Sad part is, just you mentioning it probably means I WILL do at at some point since now it'll be like a nigglign feeling in the back of my head.

Uh... happy to have helped, best of luck! :smalltongue:

[NNescio]

I played a pf game and was running a barbarian alchemist. Using a feat that switched my "casting stat" to strength I became a rage mage. Using the alchemist for buffs I had the following for str buffs.

Rage (moral)
Mutagen (alchemical)
Enlarge person (infusion size bonus)
Bull's str (infusion enchantment)

Can't remember the others on hand but those where the big ones. And bulls str will get replaced by a belt of giants str

Did you remember to say "I CAST FIST"?

[Oberron]

Did you remember to say "I CAST FIST"?

Always. Also explained how I was doing alchemy via str stat by compressing and forcing ingredients together with my massive str.

[Bohandas]

Not quite - it's actually a morale bonus. That is a rare bonus type for ability scores though, so there's a lot that will stack with it, including enhancement, inherent, alchemical etc. But the type does matter for other things, e.g. explaining why undead barbarians don't work too well.

It's a morale bonus if gained from the Rage spell, but untyped when activated through the barbarian class feature.

[Vaern]

But the type does matter for other things, e.g. explaining why undead barbarians don't work too well.
The PHB's bit about voluntarily foregoing a saving throw says that a creature with special resistances can suppress the ability to accept an effect, using an elf's immunity to sleep effects as an example. An undead creature could suppress its immunity to morale effects in order to accept the bonuses of its rage ability.
By comparison, undead creatures not subject to energy drain or ability drain. These kinds of effects can not touch them at all. They don't have any sort of special defense that they could lower in order to accept such an effect - they simply cease to be valid targets.

[Psyren]

It's a morale bonus if gained from the Rage spell, but untyped when activated through the barbarian class feature.

I'm assuming you skipped over the whole "Is the OP asking about 3.5 or Pathfinder barbarian rage" part of the discussion, so you may want to scroll up.

[Spore]

I usually combine at least alchemical boni (PF alchemist), enhancement boni (belts), inherent boni (dragon disciple/PrCs) and size boni (PF wildshape) onto strength at least.

Though I have played this often, the levels that these setups require let the superhuman strength still pale in comparison to a basic spell. You could try to punch a hole in this wall using most of your daily resources, or you could either use Stone Shape or simply climb it.

[BlueWitch]

sorry for my late response,

I temporarily lost internet access.

But anyway, thanks for these responses guys! A lot of options here! And clarifications!
Feral Trance and Dragon Rage look great for character backstories too, so that's an added bonus! ^^

[ShurikVch]

Also, Tainted Fury (Heroes of Horror) and White Dragon Lineage (Dragon Magic) feats.