The Aasimar race. How are they seen? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

T.G. Oskar

2019-10-19, 04:20 AM

The problem is that if an aasimar uses his divine features and the word spread the DM should bring demons, cults, warlocks, evil wizards an more to try to kill the "angel" or the good counterparts if it's a scourge fallen aasimar.

Minor fix; Fallen Aasimar are the unrepentant ones. Scourge Aasimars are the ones that feel they must purge evil from the world, even if it means burning themselves out.

Anyways: the Aasimar suffers from lack of traction, so I figure that the devs tried to purposefully make it OP in order to give it some traction. Also, they wanted to make it different from the Tiefling, so it wouldn't feel like a "good guy" copy of the Tiefling, while still keeping some of the traits that would make it somewhat similar.

The main score for Aasimar is Charisma, to contrast with Tiefling's...Dexterity? Intelligence? Then again, the Tiefling began as a race without subraces, which then was altered to essentially have subraces based on each of the archdevils.
The resistances are a holdover from the DMG version, and they have a good reason why: radiant damage isn't as common as necrotic, so might as well give them a second resistance. Except...well, necrotic damage isn't a thing of devils, but of undead. Something they've mentioned.
Darkvision is mostly a holdover from previous editions, and by now it's pretty much considered a ribbon ability by the devs.
The Light cantrip is also sort of a holdover to previous editions, and ALSO to the DMG edition. As mentioned, it's redundant what with having Darkvision, but that was the same thing for previous editions anyways.
Giving them the ability to speak Celestial is fitting, particularly with their refluffing of having a celestial guide.

Just from there, the Aasimar isn't that strong or surprising, though it's fairly good for Bards (unaccessible cantrip), Paladins (giving them an actual cantrip, plus resistances to the damages they most likely have to deal with), Sorcerers and Warlocks (much like for Bards). However, by making them dependent on subraces, they ramped up the power of the race itself, while also giving it a much-needed sense of distinction.

The Protector Aasimar is the closest to the original iteration, with +Wis completing the original. Radiant Soul, however, definitely takes it a tad TOO powerful; even if for 1 minute, flight that requires no concentration coupled with the extra radiant damage makes it the best companion for Celestial Warlocks or Divine Soul Sorcerers (or any Cleric, though Life Cleric is pretty much a given)
Scourge Aasimar are definitely meant for Paladins, what with +Con and Radiant Consumption creating an aura of damage that rewards lockdown with DoT. It also causes damage to you, but since it's radiant damage, it makes resistance to radiant damage actually useful. They also get that sweet damage boost...which works WONDERS with Divine Smite. Again: Scourge Aasimars make awesome Paladins, in particular Avengers, even though they'd do nice for Crown Paladins and the odd Conquest Paladin too.
Fallen Aasimar are meant to justify the "evil Aasimar" thing that the devs feel must exist to make Aasimar cooler. They get an AoE fear effect, +STR and extra Necrotic damage with attacks or spells, making them great for either Death Clerics or Oathbreaker/Conquest Paladins.

I (sorta un)intentionally left Healing Hands separate, because it would have made the base Aasimar without subraces pretty fair enough as a race alone. I mean...sure, it's basically Lay on Hands, except with a smaller pool that has to be used at once. While at first it's not that amazing, it's still solid enough to, as a fellow poster mentioned, tank one more hit.

IMO, the Aasimar seems OP if you see it in compared to the PHB races, and not to all content. If you compare it only to the PHB races, their 3rd level ability is pretty OP (mostly because, even if it's a 1-min. ability, the damage they deal is basically a mini-Smite 1/round, which is too brutal even for boss fights), and they have a TON of content. However, try to compare it with the stuff Tieflings get in SCAG (permanent Flight, even if it replaces one cantrip and two spells that might not see that much use) or Mordenkainen's (choose your ability score, choose the spells you can cast, and even add some cool ribbon traits), Eladrin (which get what's essentially rotating powers), or even the upcoming Eberron Dragonmarks, provided they work them as the Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron present them (honestly, have you seen the dice bonuses they get? And that's without going with the cantrips and spells they get as well). Thing is, WotC is trying to push the boundaries on races, but has to deal with the existing material...well, existing. (Much like the Ranger.)

That said, it could use some workout, so it doesn't have to feel so OP.
The Light cantrip should have been changed to Guidance, but only for yourself; this would represent the celestial spirit imparting its guidance, make its darkvision not so redundant, but also not exchanging one cantrip for a pretty OP one.
Drop Healing Hands. Instead, make it part of the Protector Aasimar 3rd level feature; thus, instead of adding extra damage based on your level on a single attack or spell, instead make it so that you can spend an action to heal HP equal to your level. That would make it awesome for Clerics. Scourge Aasimar could keep their damage dealing effect, while Fallen Aasimar would have the necrotic version. That way, Aasimar don't need to have a baggage of light and holiness tacked in.

In short: Aasimar aren't exactly OP, but rather, a (positive?) symptom of things to come. They do have a ton of stuff that doesn't seem to fit their given refluff (rather than simply being good Tieflings, they're now...celestialings with a guiding spirit that wants them to do good, contrasting with poor schmucks that were given infernal traits because their ancestors were pricks) and were just added to make them more interesting, but again, it has a positive effect because all upcoming content for existing and new races seems to be inclining towards this paradigm. If they could use this knowledge, though, it'd make Aasimar far more flavorful, fun and attractive.

Millstone85

2019-10-19, 04:33 AM

Them being “angels” is moot because angels and other celestials don’t get worshipped in the 5e worlds.If so, it is rather odd, considering their lore.

Shards of the Divine. Angels are formed from the astral essence of benevolent gods and are thus divine beings of great power and foresight.People do not regard a piece/child of their god as a religious icon, really?

RSP

2019-10-19, 05:06 AM

If so, it is rather odd, considering their lore.

People do not regard a piece/child of their god as a religious icon, really?

Celestials aren’t worshipped, if I’m recalling the lore correctly, they’re more the epitome of lawful good. So, even if the general public knew, upon seeing an Aasimar grow their wings, that that person was descended from Celestials, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

Again, the powers of the gods are witnessed daily in FG: go to a temple and the priest can channel your preferred deity and heal you. Seeing a person sprout glowing wings for a minute; in a world where some people always have wings, others can regularly fly without wings, and yet others are so in tune with their god that they regularly wield their power to include restoring life to the dead; isn’t something that people would flock to for religious reasons: they have that in abundance already available to them.

The idea of Aasimars as something people would flock to, in my opinion, is just creating unnecessary baggage for the race: I’d see it as much more likely people flock to the (even low level) Cleric, who can much more effectively help them with whatever is ailing them; particularly since the Cleric is specifically chosen to represent the deity.

Chaos Jackal

2019-10-19, 05:42 AM

Aasimar are among the strong races. OP, probably not. Nothing they have is game-breaking on its own or combined. They just have a lot of stuff, which ultimately adds up.

Two resistances are good, but neither of them is to a common damage type. Sure, radiant resistance is extremely rare too, but how often will it come up?

A cantrip and a minor healing ability are neat, but not amazing either.

The forms are the things that most people seem to look at when judging aasimar, but in general they are overrated. Protector's flight is actually good, but the fallen's fear effect is a pretty weak use of an action and scourge can be detrimental to themselves (at least they resist their own burning) but also to their allies. As for the damage, for many levels and for most melee classes, in a fight of average length, the bonus ends up being a dpr loss, because wasting two attacks (or one with SA, or whatever) is for quite a while very detrimental.

So ultimately, the aasimar is strong, by virtue of having plenty of nice things. But nothing it has is actually impactful enough to make it broken (except the flight, maybe).

Millstone85

2019-10-19, 05:46 AM

Celestials aren’t worshipped, if I’m recalling the lore correctly, they’re more the epitome of lawful good.There are non-lawful celestials. Now, angels specifically, they are indeed lawful by nature, even when they come from a chaotic deity.

But what I was bringing up is that angels are themselves divine to an extent. Again, specfically angels, though the same could be said of empyreans.

And again their Angelic Guide is more than enough to qualify as a god's paragon since you got an almost direct line of communication with one of their agents.Also this.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-19, 06:36 AM

I think you missed my point. Them being “angels” is moot because angels and other celestials don’t get worshipped in the 5e worlds. Each of the many gods has their own messengers, but the idea of an angel being a religious icon is, I believe, something you’re bringing in from real world religion, not the in-game stuff.

You believe wrong. Angels do get worshipped, but it's hardly surprising, considering people in D&D also worship completely non-divine dragons, elementals, fiends, undead, fey, aberrations... well, pretty much anything, including other mortals. And that's even if the mentioned aren't used as proxies for true gods, as celestials often are.

The main score for Aasimar is Charisma, to contrast with Tiefling's...Dexterity? Intelligence? Then again, the Tiefling began as a race without subraces, which then was altered to essentially have subraces based on each of the archdevils.

Also Charisma. The only tiefling that doesn't have Cha as the main ability increase is feral variant from SCAG, every other subrace has +2 Cha and +1 other.

stoutstien

2019-10-19, 08:11 AM

They are definitely one of the stronger races but I wouldn't put them in the top tier with pure blood yuan-ti, bugbears, or even half elf.
Once the next source book is out I think they will lose more ground but will sit nicely in that near best group still.

They do have too much going on and could be simplified. Lizard folks are the same.

KorvinStarmast

2019-10-19, 08:51 AM

Drop one of the resistances, no other race give two.I agree with you on this
(FWIW, Yuan Ti PC race get resistance to spells, which IMO was a step to far).

RSP

2019-10-19, 09:33 AM

If you play in a world where the average expected level is 10 or higher then yes aasimars are no big deal. If the average level is -1 they are impressive. A cleric that is shown to resurrect people would be constantly asked to do so, same goes for healing and angels can do that too with their innate spellcasting and actions.
And again it's not for a religious reason but just for a convenience one.
We have spotted a lich in the far noth an angel should be able to deal with it.
An aasimar is spotted slaughtering goblins as their first quest and mistaken for an angel it would be natural that the kingdom sent him there to help.

If you play in a home brew world where level -1 is the norm, then RP it as that world should be RP’d, including having people think Aasimar are Celestials come from the gods to save them, if that’s what you want. Obviously, home brew worlds can react to races however the creator wants: perhaps it’s all Elven and humans, dwarves and every other humanoid is treated the same as a they would a pet dog.

I think you have a different view of the races than appear in the official works: for instance, Tieflings aren’t hunted as demons (any more than Aasimar are worshipped as celestials), but in fact are welcomed into communities and allowed to live normal lives like any other humanoid, per SKT.

And again that's metagaming.
An aasimar is nothing special if you don't consider the 1min surper sayan mode but most people shouldn't be able to tell the difference between an aasimar and an angel. The "unecessary baggage" is necessary and should be a prime RP element when you play an uncommon or monstrous race.
And again their Angelic Guide is more than enough to qualify as a god's paragon since you got an almost direct line of communication with one of their agents.

I’m not sure why you assume commoners are more familiar with Celestials than Aasimars. The world has Beholders, Dragons, Mind Flayers, and all sorts of monsters, on top of casters that can fly, Druids that change in to animals and even elementals, and all sorts of incredible beings (some swordsmen can even disarm opponents!).

I disagree that under these circumstances commoners would make the conclusion that you seem to think are an RP necessity for the race: if Bob the Aasimar runs the local general store, but is completely inept in combating demons and what have you, then there’s no reason for the community to run to him in times of trouble, just because his heritage includes celestial influence.

Again, the people are going to ask the Paladins of Helm or the Clerics of Lathandar or some such for aid.

MaxWilson

2019-10-19, 10:58 AM

I think they have been the victim of the fact that Teiflings are just cooler. Anyone who wants to play a plainstouched has to have a really good reason not to play a Teifling, because they have all the obvious cool herratige and ideas wheras Aasimar are kinda flat, so over the generations they have just gotten cooler and been given more toys to convince people to play them.

Shouldn't Aasimar be a type of Tiefling? Tieflings, as created in Planescape, are just people with a partially-planar heritage. Aasimar are the ones with a planar heritage from the Upper Planes IIRC.

Millstone85

2019-10-19, 11:07 AM

Shouldn't Aasimar be a type of Tiefling? Tieflings, as created in Planescape, are just people with a partially-planar heritage. Aasimar are the ones with a planar heritage from the Upper Planes IIRC.I think the word was "planetouched", with aasimar, genasi and tieflings having celestial, elemental and fiendish blood, respectively.

Anyhow, in 5e, tieflings are specifically connected to devils, which is oddly restrictive.

GreyBlack

2019-10-19, 11:15 AM

I agree with Aasimar being over powered and I think it's pretty clear when you compare them to other races. IMO opinion they should:

Drop one of the resistances, no other race give two.

Drop Darkvision, enough races have it and it actually makes you want to use their racial cantrip more.

Buff their healing hands to 2 points per level to make it a meaningful heal not just raise from 0.

Rein in their super saiyan modes, the unique ability plus full level in damage every turn is obscene.

You do realize that Aasimar do still have disadvantage to perception checks in darkness, right? That's why you'd want to use the light cantrip.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-19, 11:24 AM

I disagree that under these circumstances commoners would make the conclusion that you seem to think are an RP necessity for the race: if Bob the Aasimar runs the local general store, but is completely inept in combating demons and what have you, then there’s no reason for the community to run to him in times of trouble, just because his heritage includes celestial influence.

That's because the locals are familiar with Bob the aasimar and know how incompetent combatant he is. If Bob the aasimar travels elsewhere, and people notice his heritage, they will likely have higher expectations of him before he again proves them wrong. Just like locals may know Alice the tiefling is actually an upstanding citizen, but random tiefling appearing out of nowhere would be treated with suspicion, even if not outright hostility.

Bob the aasimar is unlikely to be a shopkeeper in the first place, though: unlike tieflings, who may just appear in general populace for various reasons, aasimar do have divine purpose intentionally bestowed upon them.

Shouldn't Aasimar be a type of Tiefling? Tieflings, as created in Planescape, are just people with a partially-planar heritage. Aasimar are the ones with a planar heritage from the Upper Planes IIRC.

All tiefling are planetouched, but not all planetouched are tieflings. Tieflings, historically, had any Lower Planes heritage, though they are purely devil-derived now. Another planetouched races were genasi (with elemental plane heritage, mostly from genies) and there were lawful and chaotic planetouched too, though I don't remember the name (neraph for chaos, IIRC?).

Expected

2019-10-19, 11:50 AM

Well look at the facts, on the D&D beyond character builder they say the Aasimar has no subraces but clearly not, I got Vgm (Volo's guide to Monsters) this week and it says that the Aasimar have 3 subraces and their all kinda Op what do you thinks of this?

I agree with Aasimar being over powered and I think it's pretty clear when you compare them to other races.

I respectfully disagree. There's a reason why min-max players, like myself, choose either Variant Human or Half-Elf (Other races have niche builds that they perform well with). Half-Elf grants Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, 2 skill proficiencies, +2 Cha, and +1 to two different ability scores allowing you to start with two scores at 16 at level 1. Half-Elves are the optimal choice for any Cha build, but for anything else, the Variant Human is the best choice. Variant Human grants +1 skill proficiency, +1 to two different ability scores, and a feat at level 1. Compared to an Aasimar's traits (2 resistances and extra damage/turn are useful but not worth the opportunity cost of not choosing VHuman or HElf) they are more useful, hence why you see my ilk run VHuman CBX Fighters and HElf Sorlocks and cause those threads about power imbalance between players.

Granted, towards later tiers, it evens out, but having a build be online earlier should not be underestimated (e.g. PAM+GWM Battle Master Fighter at level 4).

RSP

2019-10-19, 11:58 AM

Joe the random commoner having no knowledge on how to classificate celestials would assume that an aasimar is one.

Why? Why not assume they’re a Wizard? Or a Sorcerer? Or a demon? Or a werebird? Do they assume Winged Tieflings are Celestials? Why does a commoner without any specific knowledge of Celestials or Aasimar know they’re connected, just by seeing a humanoid with wings?

But if you got an angel in town they would ask him to deal with demons hunting and other evils since that is what an angel is supposed to do.

But they don’t have an angel in town; they have an Aasimar. And anyone who knows about Celestials and Aasimars, knows they’re not the same thing. And if they don’t know about them, why do they think they have an angel in town?

Ok maybe I got why we aren't getting each other points:

I say that to nearly everyone it's hard to tell the difference between an aasimar and an angel that is doing things

You say that no one would ever mistake one for the other.

Is that correct?

Not quite.

I don’t assume common people know Celestials and their properties, any more than I assume they know about Mind Flayers or Beholders. Maybe they’ve heard a story, but that’s about it (and the story probably isn’t accurate).

I think you’re using your knowledge of what Aasimars and Celestials are, and assuming that’s what commoners know and then for some reason deciding “but they think Aasimars are Celestials”.

I’m saying a) if they actually know about Celestials, they probably know Bob the Grocer isn’t one. If they actually know Aasimars, they know they aren’t Celestials and that they’re essentially as powerful as any other commoner (most of the population do not have class levels, this includes non-PC Aasimars).

If they don’t actually know about Celestials or Aasimars, they’re not necessarily going to connect the two, as there are so many different ways one could explain a flying humanoid: again, different races, magical abilities, magic items, whatever. What a commoner would assume a winged humanoid is, isn’t even restricted by the official material as it’s safe to assume they’ve heard stories that exaggerate or misrepresent the truth. For instance, maybe they’ve heard of, but never met a Winged Tiefling, so when they see a Protector Aasimar with wings out, they assume “oh, that must be the Winged Tiefling I’ve heard of,” or maybe just “Oh I’ve heard of Wizards who can fly but never seen one before (and obviously they use magic glowing wings to fly because how else would it work?)!” Or they think the glowing wings on a humanoid body are actually indicative of some type of Fey. Maybe they’re just aware Bob the Grocer can grow wings and fly: certainly this isn’t the oddest thing one can find in the FR.

RSP

2019-10-19, 12:22 PM

If Bob the aasimar travels elsewhere, and people notice his heritage, they will likely have higher expectations of him before he again proves them wrong.

If they identify his heritage (not sure how this is done), then it’s safe to say they know he’s not a celestial. Again, the people are more likely to seek aid from the goodly Cleric and Paladin Orders than some random person with weird eyes (which, coincidentally could just be a Cleric using Thaumaturgy).

Sure if people see him grow wings they might think he’s different but there’s enough different in the FR that this wouldn’t really stand out all that much, nor necessarily indicate “he’s special and powerful and must be our divine savior!” Again, when they want a divine savior, they’re probably looking towards the good Orders of Clerics that have proven with their abilities that they’re actually channeling divinity and providing results.

Seeking a Cleric to help is much more likely than assuming some dude with glowing wings (that only last a minute) is here to bail everyone out of trouble (I mean, maybe it is just a Winged Tiefling...).

Trandir

2019-10-19, 12:41 PM

Why?

Ok I have created a new thread and will delete all the posts about the aasimar that are not related to their mechanical power.

I would invite everyone to do the same and continue the discussion there.

Anyway no the aasimar played in a game where and adventuring day consists of 7-8 encounters with a couple of short rests in the middle they are balanced.

The 2 resistance are cool but monsters rarely use those kind of damage.
Darkvision and Light are good but not game breaking.
A single 1-20 HP heal once every long rest is good but it should cover a single hit of the appropriate level.
The ability scores add to a +3 so they are perfectly in line with most races.

Protector aasimar gains fly speed of 30 ft

Scourge aasimar creates a 10 ft radious zone of lights that deals 2-10 damage to every creature in it including yourself

Fallen aasimar when transforms forces the creatures within 10 ft of it to make a Cha save or be frightened until the end of your next turn.

Every transformation also allows an aasimar to add to the damage cause by one of spells or attacks against one creature equal to his level.

The specific effects are rather minor while the extra damage one is probably the only thing that could be imbalanced allowinf for everythibg from 3-20 to 30-200 extra damage off of a racial trait once per day.

LibraryOgre

2019-10-19, 12:54 PM

The Mod Ogre: Two threads on Aasimar merged; there may be some double-posting above this point because of that; ignore it.

Yunru

2019-10-19, 01:00 PM

The Mod Ogre: Two threads on Aasimar merged; there may be some double-posting above this point because of that; ignore it.

Wasn't one a purposeful branch off of the other though, to separate the "Mechanical OP" and "RP implication" discussions?

Trandir

2019-10-19, 01:10 PM

The Mod Ogre: Two threads on Aasimar merged; there may be some double-posting above this point because of that; ignore it.

Well this thread's OP question was about the balance of the race not the RP implications of it.

I created the other thread to avoid further derailing.

Also why does this thread have two different titles?

LibraryOgre

2019-10-19, 01:26 PM

Wasn't one a purposeful branch off of the other though, to separate the "Mechanical OP" and "RP implication" discussions?

The Mod Ogre: Yep. And there's a limit about "Two Threads on a single topic". Two short threads about the same race don't need to be separated.

Well this thread's OP question was about the balance of the race not the RP implications of it.

I created the other thread to avoid further derailing.

Also why does this thread have two different titles?

The Mod Ogre: Because the two combined threads each had their own titles on them.

Dork_Forge

2019-10-19, 01:37 PM

You do realize that Aasimar do still have disadvantage to perception checks in darkness, right? That's why you'd want to use the light cantrip.

Yes I am well aware of the light rules, however the Aasimar gets A LOT of things and this would be an area to crop that a bit. I didn't say the cantrip was completely redundant, I said it would give more incentive to use it (aside from this in personal play experience if the whole party has DV they're far less likely to use a lightsource, cantrip or not).

Dork_Forge

2019-10-19, 02:03 PM

I respectfully disagree. There's a reason why min-max players, like myself, choose either Variant Human or Half-Elf (Other races have niche builds that they perform well with). Half-Elf grants Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, 2 skill proficiencies, +2 Cha, and +1 to two different ability scores allowing you to start with two scores at 16 at level 1. Half-Elves are the optimal choice for any Cha build, but for anything else, the Variant Human is the best choice. Variant Human grants +1 skill proficiency, +1 to two different ability scores, and a feat at level 1. Compared to an Aasimar's traits (2 resistances and extra damage/turn are useful but not worth the opportunity cost of not choosing VHuman or HElf) they are more useful, hence why you see my ilk run VHuman CBX Fighters and HElf Sorlocks and cause those threads about power imbalance between players.

Granted, towards later tiers, it evens out, but having a build be online earlier should not be underestimated (e.g. PAM+GWM Battle Master Fighter at level 4).

I don't really see what Half Elf and V. Human being very good options have to do with how much Aasimar get. The feat is very powerful, and to get it you drop an ability point in comparison to most other races, lack darkvision and get far fewer abilities. Half Elf is all around just very good, it could probably do with being scaled back tbh but Fey Ancestry doesn't really come up too much (if it included the Trance ability then I'd agree it was more significant) and the race lacks and active abilities unless you go variant.

Min maxers (myself included) like to max out primary stats quickly and you can still do that with the Aasimar. You can be a blaster Sorcerer/Warlock with the same Cha progression as a HElf but have that super saiyan mode for a bunch more damage.

Not only is the sheer number of things the Aasimar get an issue (and it breaks template, no other race gets two resistances, not even the OPforged), but their powered up mode is an issue. The bonus damage is tagged on the end like it's a rider, but we see the same feature in the Goblin where it was deemed to be a once per SR nova. Getting the same but in radiant (arguably better) every turn for a minute with other features accompanying is a bit much to say the least. Half the level (rounded down min. 1) would be far more reasonable if keeping the rest of the kit.

Waazraath

2019-10-19, 03:08 PM

It's a (very) good race, but by no means OP. Comparable wit Variant Human, Half-Elf, Firbolg, Variant Tiefling, and a number of others. It has quite a lot of abilities, but some of those are rather weak / ribbon like, or overlap (darkvision / light cantrip, resistances against damage that is rare), and the arguably strongest (protector) subrace has 2 ability score increases that don't work together (0 classes need both wis and cha). So yeah, its healng is good, and it's level 3 ability is very nice (extra damage!) - but don't forget both take an action to trigger.

Keravath

2019-10-19, 03:30 PM

I have to agree with everyone who says Aasimar aren't OP at all.

They have average stat boosts good for charisma classes. Resistance to radiant and necrotic is cool but isn't a huge factor. Weapon damage and poison or fire come up far more often.

All the other so-called OP abilities are 1 use/long rest. LONG REST. For example radiant soul, 30' fly speed for one minute and do additional damage equal to your level to one target once/turn.

Healing hands heals your level in hit points. Once per long rest. You can't split it up like a paladin does.

If you play a campaign with one fight/day and the players know it then the race gets more powerful since they can use their special ability every fight. However, most campaigns could have 4-6 combat encounters/day. In this type of situation, the once/long rest abilities are far more of a ribbon than something that is actually useful. It is something you can pull out in a difficult fight (if you can figure out it will be a difficult fight in time to use it) but compared to the abilities of other races that are always available, it can hardly be considered OP. (in my opinion)

Expected

2019-10-19, 03:56 PM

I don't really see what Half Elf and V. Human being very good options have to do with how much Aasimar get. The feat is very powerful, and to get it you drop an ability point in comparison to most other races, lack darkvision and get far fewer abilities. Half Elf is all around just very good, it could probably do with being scaled back tbh but Fey Ancestry doesn't really come up too much (if it included the Trance ability then I'd agree it was more significant) and the race lacks and active abilities unless you go variant.

Min maxers (myself included) like to max out primary stats quickly and you can still do that with the Aasimar. You can be a blaster Sorcerer/Warlock with the same Cha progression as a HElf but have that super saiyan mode for a bunch more damage.

Not only is the sheer number of things the Aasimar get an issue (and it breaks template, no other race gets two resistances, not even the OPforged), but their powered up mode is an issue. The bonus damage is tagged on the end like it's a rider, but we see the same feature in the Goblin where it was deemed to be a once per SR nova. Getting the same but in radiant (arguably better) every turn for a minute with other features accompanying is a bit much to say the least. Half the level (rounded down min. 1) would be far more reasonable if keeping the rest of the kit.

It's relevant because the OP was essentially stating that the Aasimar race is overpowered. To determine whether or not something is stronger or weaker, you need to compare them. Hence my comparison between the races' features and traits.

Another issue is the subjective valuation of passive/active skills. For example, it seems as though you value active x1/day traits (e.g. Tiefling Vicious Mockery, Half-Elf Drow Drow Magic, etc.) while I value passive traits (e.g. +1 to two ability scores, a free feat, extra skill proficiencies, etc.). This would cause our tier lists, if we were to create one for argument's sake, to look completely different. You are forgetting that VHuman allows ridiculously op builds come online sooner (CBX/Sharpshooter Fighter or PAM/GWM BM Fighter at level 4) while other races cannot do so until level 8. Considering how most campaigns only last until tier 3 and much of the gameplay is from 1-11, this favors the races I suggested. I do realize that some active traits are useful for niche builds (e.g. Drow Magic Darkness for a Warlock with Devil's Sight or Savage Criticals for a Half-Orc crit fisher, etc.) but overall, my opinion remains that Aasimar is not overpowered.

Brookshw

2019-10-19, 05:21 PM

Shouldn't Aasimar be a type of Tiefling? Tieflings, as created in Planescape, are just people with a partially-planar heritage. Aasimar are the ones with a planar heritage from the Upper Planes IIRC.

Yes? Tieflings were planar orphans (yes, "orphan" is the actual term the campaign setting used) with no particular planar race being part of the genetic brew, though they were often confused with fiends and liked dark colors. However, Aasimar are specified in the PS MC II as Upper Planes (and Rilmani) in planar origin. I guess the significant distinction is that the Aasimar aren't "orphans"?

WadeWay33

2019-10-19, 08:14 PM

They aren't OP, but they're nothing to scoff at.
Unpopular Opinion: I think Tieflings, Aasimar, and other Planetouched (maybe Gensai? I don't know too much about them) races should be the same race under different subraces.

Trandir

2019-10-19, 08:45 PM

Why? Why not assume they’re a Wizard? Or a Sorcerer? Or a demon? Or a werebird? Do they assume Winged Tieflings are Celestials? Why does a commoner without any specific knowledge of Celestials or Aasimar know they’re connected, just by seeing a humanoid with wings?

On the top of my head for each of them in order:
1 They use magic formulas and gestures
2 Same as 1
3 Demons are non far more monstrous and don't shed light, a fallen aasimar might pass for a devil tho
4 The aasimar have human feature and not a single bird feature and no race on the Forgotten Realms is just a human with wings (exept angels). They grow wings of light, skeletal wings or explode with light and bird people usually don't do that.
5 There winged tiefling is a variant so in the FR there are none. If you allow it in your world they would still be infernals.
The commoners would se a seemingly weird human turn into either: an angel, a ball of light an infernal figure. All of them would be linked go something and for sure not a winged human

But they don’t have an angel in town; they have an Aasimar. And anyone who knows about Celestials and Aasimars, knows they’re not the same thing. And if they don’t know about them, why do they think they have an angel in town?

I would bet that most common folk don't know about aasimar but if everyone does and we go by the book we still have direct agent of the divines that is there for the greater good.

I don’t assume common people know Celestials and their properties, any more than I assume they know about Mind Flayers or Beholders. Maybe they’ve heard a story, but that’s about it (and the story probably isn’t accurate).

I think you’re using your knowledge of what Aasimars and Celestials are, and assuming that’s what commoners know and then for some reason deciding “but they think Aasimars are Celestials”.

I assume that a commoner knows jack **** of what an aasimar is. And that is the reason why they shouln't be able to thell the difference between an angel in incognito and an aasimar.

I’m saying a) if they actually know about Celestials, they probably know Bob the Grocer isn’t one. If they actually know Aasimars, they know they aren’t Celestials and that they’re essentially as powerful as any other commoner (most of the population do not have class levels, this includes non-PC Aasimars).

If they know what an aasimar is they also know that they are guided by a celestial, that are champions of good and law and that their presence means that there is something wrong that needs to be corrected.

If they don’t actually know about Celestials or Aasimars, they’re not necessarily going to connect the two, as there are so many different ways one could explain a flying humanoid: again, different races, magical abilities, magic items, whatever. What a commoner would assume a winged humanoid is, isn’t even restricted by the official material as it’s safe to assume they’ve heard stories that exaggerate or misrepresent the truth. For instance, maybe they’ve heard of, but never met a Winged Tiefling, so when they see a Protector Aasimar with wings out, they assume “oh, that must be the Winged Tiefling I’ve heard of,” or maybe just “Oh I’ve heard of Wizards who can fly but never seen one before (and obviously they use magic glowing wings to fly because how else would it work?)!” Or they think the glowing wings on a humanoid body are actually indicative of some type of Fey. Maybe they’re just aware Bob the Grocer can grow wings and fly: certainly this isn’t the oddest thing one can find in the FR.

If they identify his heritage (not sure how this is done), then it’s safe to say they know he’s not a celestial. Again, the people are more likely to seek aid from the goodly Cleric and Paladin Orders than some random person with weird eyes (which, coincidentally could just be a Cleric using Thaumaturgy).

Sure if people see him grow wings they might think he’s different but there’s enough different in the FR that this wouldn’t really stand out all that much, nor necessarily indicate “he’s special and powerful and must be our divine savior!” Again, when they want a divine savior, they’re probably looking towards the good Orders of Clerics that have proven with their abilities that they’re actually channeling divinity and providing results.

Seeking a Cleric to help is much more likely than assuming some dude with glowing wings (that only last a minute) is here to bail everyone out of trouble (I mean, maybe it is just a Winged Tiefling...).

Ok so this is going nowhere.
I give up. No one in the neutral and good spectum of the alignment chart gives a damn about aasimars.

What we have left is that the aasimars would get hunded down by demons, warlocks and whatever evil is listening and apparently no one gives a crap about them so good luck on getting help before you die.

Sception

2019-10-19, 09:58 PM

Given their stats & abilities, most aasimar are probably *also* clerics/paladins/divine soul sorcerers, so they're members of the miracle-working holy orders on top of being a semi-divine mortal champion chosen for greatness and/or some divine perpose by a celestial servant of the divine.

So yeah, if they're recognized for what they are, in most settings they'll probably be treated as a relatively big deal. Not a world changing event sort of deal, not an abandon your life to follow & praise them kind of deal, at least not in most settings where magic & monsters & celestials & even the gods themselves are just an undeniable part of the setting's phsyical world. Think less jesus and more along the lines of a greek demigod born ftom one of the lesser gods. A big deal sure - not something you see every day, but not unheard of by any stretch. If anything, members of trained clerical orders might consider them a bigger deal than common folk, taking them as a sign or omen that dark times are coming for the mortal realms that will require a divinely empowered champion.

As for whether they're op... I don't really feel so. High end sure, but not out of line with the stronger phb options. The damage boost looks nasty, and scales better than most, but taking an action to activate significantly cuts into it. If you already have good damage output otherwise you might not break even until the 4th or 5th round of combat, by which point most fights are either already over or at least well enough in hand.

While not op, they are noticeably more complex than most other races. I kind of consider that to be a good thing, I wish more races stayed similarly distinct into mid levels, but I wouldn't necessarily object to dropping a bit from them. Ditching one of darkvision, the light cantrip, or the healing hands ability would work, imo.

RSP

2019-10-20, 12:32 AM

I would bet that most common folk don't know about aasimar but if everyone does and we go by the book we still have direct agent of the divines that is there for the greater good.

Actually there are no alignment restrictions for the race, and it states only that “most” are good, which means there are neutral and evil Aasimars out there as well. So it’s not true that all Aasimars are working for the greater good. I don’t believe the book gives us whether Fallen=Evil, so, if I recall correctly, there is nothing that prevents an “Evil Protector Aasimar” or a “Good Fallen Aasimar”.

I assume that a commoner knows jack **** of what an aasimar is. And that is the reason why they shouln't be able to thell the difference between an angel in incognito and an aasimar.

Yet, apparently all commoners are up to speed on Celestials (but not really, as even though they’ve extensively studied Celestials they still don’t know an Aasimar is not a Celestial: there are a lot of differences between the two.) Do all commoners know the different types of celestials and their properties? Or do they just know what correlates with Aasimars (that is, wings)?

If they know what an aasimar is they also know that they are guided by a celestial, that are champions of good and law and that their presence means that there is something wrong that needs to be corrected.

A bit of a jump there, for multiple reasons. First, just because you know something exists, doesn’t mean you know everything about it. Second, no one knows that they’re champions of good, because they could well be evil, and therefore not at all “champions of good.” And that leads us to third, what they’re “correcting” may not be a good thing for the commoners (even if they’re “Good”), therefore the “stories” they’ve heard might not be ones that make you say, “these beings are helpful.”

Also, your entire premise is seemingly founded only on the Protector subclass, as I’m pretty sure you’re not claiming Fallen Aasimars with their non-flapping skeletal wings are being confused with Angels, and you seem to only link the Protector’s wings to the celestials.

Again, with so much magic in the world (which the vast majority of people are exposed to but don’t really understand), it’s a lot more likely that commoners would assume seeing someone grow wings and fly for a minute as just more “magic,” rather than concluding “oh, temporarily growing wings for a very limited amount of time a day means they’re Angels. That’s totes different than magic.”

Dork_Forge

2019-10-20, 03:50 AM

It's relevant because the OP was essentially stating that the Aasimar race is overpowered. To determine whether or not something is stronger or weaker, you need to compare them. Hence my comparison between the races' features and traits.

Another issue is the subjective valuation of passive/active skills. For example, it seems as though you value active x1/day traits (e.g. Tiefling Vicious Mockery, Half-Elf Drow Drow Magic, etc.) while I value passive traits (e.g. +1 to two ability scores, a free feat, extra skill proficiencies, etc.). This would cause our tier lists, if we were to create one for argument's sake, to look completely different. You are forgetting that VHuman allows ridiculously op builds come online sooner (CBX/Sharpshooter Fighter or PAM/GWM BM Fighter at level 4) while other races cannot do so until level 8. Considering how most campaigns only last until tier 3 and much of the gameplay is from 1-11, this favors the races I suggested. I do realize that some active traits are useful for niche builds (e.g. Drow Magic Darkness for a Warlock with Devil's Sight or Savage Criticals for a Half-Orc crit fisher, etc.) but overall, my opinion remains that Aasimar is not overpowered.

You keep mentioning racial stat increases in this, all the floating +1 mean is that they can be used for any class, which is meant to represent the themes of the human/human influence on Elves. V. Human gets less of a stat increase than the majority of races. Whilst you can get some two feat builds online by level 4, doesn't mean that most people would or should. In your examples the PC wouldn't max their primary stat until ASI 3. For anything but a Fighter that means waiting until level 12 (10 if you're pure Rogue), at that point you're falling behind the to hit curve and seeing how high most games go, may never get to max the stat at all.

I actually like and use V. Human and HElf most for my builds, however I also think active abilities are useful depending on the build and Aasimar are still a step too far compared to most other races imo. No other race that I can think of gets that kind of damage bump, especially not on top of all those other abilities passive or active.

Trandir

2019-10-20, 04:29 AM

Actually there are no alignment restrictions for the race, and it states only that “most” are good, which means there are neutral and evil Aasimars out there as well. So it’s not true that all Aasimars are working for the greater good. I don’t believe the book gives us whether Fallen=Evil, so, if I recall correctly, there is nothing that prevents an “Evil Protector Aasimar” or a “Good Fallen Aasimar”.

While there is no allignement restriction an aasimar is guided by a celestial to serve a greater purpose. One can be evil to the core but it would still get visions that tell him to go and to good stuff.
The fallen aasimar are not what they are supposed to be and if we look at how the allignement chart works the "turn to evil" and "inner light replaced by shadow" mean that pretty much all fallen aasimar are evil.
As for all things you can talk about the general and most common not every case that might be. An orc by almost anyone is seen as a savage that lives only to pillage, rape anf fight but theorically there could be one that refuses all of that in favor of a life of study andbwithout ever getting into a fight

Yet, apparently all commoners are up to speed on Celestials (but not really, as even though they’ve extensively studied Celestials they still don’t know an Aasimar is not a Celestial: there are a lot of differences between the two.) Do all commoners know the different types of celestials and their properties? Or do they just know what correlates with Aasimars (that is, wings)?

If they have no extensive knowledge on all the types of celestials then what they have is probably glowing people simiting evil.
Tell me the apperent differences that allow someone to tell appart a celestial from an aasima.

A bit of a jump there, for multiple reasons. First, just because you know something exists, doesn’t mean you know everything about it. Second, no one knows that they’re champions of good, because they could well be evil, and therefore not at all “champions of good.” And that leads us to third, what they’re “correcting” may not be a good thing for the commoners (even if they’re “Good”), therefore the “stories” they’ve heard might not be ones that make you say, “these beings are helpful.”

It's exausting doing this, you shift the ammount of knowledge an average person has to suppoet your points. Please announce what in your opinion a commoner that hasn't studied celestial knows about aasimars since it appears that it ranges from nothing to enough to know one at first sight and also how another celestial is supposed to look like.

Now your first point is invalid. I say they know what an aasimar is then yes I mean that they do know all the basic general stuff since that's the definiton of "knowing something"
The second one is linked to the first and yis also an invalid argument. If they know that an aasimar is they also know that they are guided to achieve the greater good. If you bring the fallen aasmar into the mix they probably will throw rocks at him if they recognise one.
Third really? The stories could be false?
Ok let's just assume for a moment that the divine agent is both recognised and ignored. The consect of greater good for a mortal is weird and hard to grasp but remember the angelic guide and most aasimar are LG and as such pretty much everyone and every story about them is about how the left a plsce better than when they arrived.
The fallen aasimar is recognised as one it would be expected that it helps, it it doesn't it would be weird.

Also, your entire premise is seemingly founded only on the Protector subclass, as I’m pretty sure you’re not claiming Fallen Aasimars with their non-flapping skeletal wings are being confused with Angels, and you seem to only link the Protector’s wings to the celestials.

No the whole premise is that a protector or scurge aasimar it would be mistaken for a celestial and a fallen aasimar for an infernal.

The discussion then became if one is and how it si mistaken for an angel and from that point we both ignored the other 2 subraces

Again, with so much magic in the world (which the vast majority of people are exposed to but don’t really understand), it’s a lot more likely that commoners would assume seeing someone grow wings and fly for a minute as just more “magic,” rather than concluding “oh, temporarily growing wings for a very limited amount of time a day means they’re Angels. That’s totes different than magic.”

I already gave up on that since you are not willing to change you mind and neither am I.
Still if the common folk doesn't dive a **** as the orders lf clerics/paladins/good doers around the world the manual explicitly says that evil creatures actively look for them to kill torture or what have you. It is resonable to assume that also the paladins/clerics and others would do the same to a fallen aasimar.

And that limits the transformation utility.

Millstone85

2019-10-20, 05:41 AM

On the subject of how aasimar are perceived in-universe, VGtM tells us this:
Aasimar are born to serve as champions of the gods, their births hailed as blessed events.

It speaks strongly against the idea of Joe the innkeep who just happens to have celestial ancestry, unless that's a deliberate attempt of Josephin to turn away from his destiny.

Sception

2019-10-20, 08:14 AM

Whilst you can get some two feat builds online by level 4, doesn't mean that most people would or should.

Forget two feat builds, if you're trying to max your primary stat before taking feats then humans are the only race that can even get *single* feat builds online before ASI 3, something most chatacters in most campaigns don't ever get to see.

The Aasimar damage boost takes a full standard action to bring online, which means most characters can't bring it to bare until turn 2, and won't pull ahead of simply attacking in the first round until several turns in, at which point many fights are either already over or at least in the cleanup phase. And the better a character's damage output is otherwise, the longer it takes for the Aasimar damage boosts to be 'worth it'.

A level 5 fallen aasimar fighter with Str 18 double attacking with a greatsword with a 3/5 chance to hit (vs ac 15) puts out 13.2 average damage per round. After activating their racial ability, the average damage increases by 4.2, which means they don't actually pull ahead until round 5 of combat, which is pretty late in most fights. And that's ignoring advantage, crits, magic weapons, class features, party buffs, and wasted damage from overkill, all of which tilt the math further *against* the aasimar damage.

things look better for a character that does less damage to begin with, for instance the same fighter using a spear deals 9 damage per round normally, and so will pull ahead on round 4 of the combat instead of round 5, but that's still pretty late, and is flat worse than the Vuman version of the same character with polearm master who is dealing 3.9 extra damage from their bonus attack every round including the first. It would take 43 rounds of continuous use to break even in that comparison.
Even if the fight lasts that long, the form only lasts for 10.

And that doesn't count the possibility of PAM allowing reaction attacks that the fighter might otherwise not get to make in a turn, which, like every other boost to accuracy or damage, further skews the math against the aasimar.

So yeah, as pure damage buffs, the round of setup cuts into the effectiveness of the Aasimar racial abilities so much that I really don't think they can be called overpowered. The other things they do - flight, aoe, fear (especially for conquest paladins) - keep them from being bad. Spending an action for decent utility, with extra damage in following rounds to, eventually, make up for the damage you lost, make for some actyally pretty good and tacticslly interesting racial abilities. But I still wouldn't call them OP.

There are some builds where Aasimar damage looks better, admittedly. Sorcerers & Sorlocks, for instance, are casters, so there aren't really damage feats to compare it to, and quicken lets those builds start taking advantage of the damage boost on the same round you use it. Even then it still takes a few rounds to break even with just using the same standard action for an extra agonizing eldritch blast, or for setting up alternative buffs like darkness or what have you.

And that's just pure damage output. Less damage oriented builds than greatsword fighter or PAM spear or sorlock might see quicker returns from Aasimar bonus damage, but if those builds aren't optimizing for damage in the first place they'll probably get more use out of a utility feat.

Most tanks would rather have sentinel earlier than just about anything else. Most supports would rather have Healer or Inspiring Leader. Control mains would rather have Alert so they have a better chance of controlling the battle before it begins. And any build that spends turns doing things other than dealing damage isn't benefiting at all from the bonus damage in those rounds.

At high levels, after 3 or 4 ASIs, when most builds have the feats and stats they want anyway and mist racial features have receded into the background but Aasimar forms are still useful and relevant, then Aasimar maybe start looking a bit more out of place... but again most campaigns don't ladt that long, and personally I like that Aasimar (and Eladrin, and the small handful of other races) still feel distinct at those levels. Personally, I wish more races were similarly mechanically interesting.

Bigmouth

2019-10-20, 09:02 AM

"Most societies interpret aasimar births as good omens"

"From an early age, an aasimar receives visions and guidance from celestial entities via dreams. These dreams help shape an aasimar, granting a sense of destiny and a desire for righteousness."

"An aasimar inevitably draws the attention of evil cultists, fiends, and other enemies of good, all of whom would be eager to strike down a celestial champion if they had the chance. When traveling, aasimar prefer hoods, closed helms, and other gear that allows them to conceal their identities."

The first and the third quote pretty much spell out that aasimar are not viewed in the same way that other races are. They are not just 'guys with glowy eyes" who can sprout wings for a minute. Evil forces in the world see them as symbols of good worth destroying. Normal people see them as symbols of good as well as pointed out in the good omens bit. Seen as a good omen at birth they grow up with direct guidance from a celestial being.

There's nothing stated in the PHB about good clerics/paladins drawing the attention of evil forces. They don't receive direct guidance from the divine to the point that roleplaying notes are put into the text for it.

Dork_Forge

2019-10-20, 09:06 AM

SCRUBBED FOR LENGTH

Almost all of your reply was concerning Fighters or other melee centric characters on a race that has a +2 Cha and only one subclass that gives a bonus to Str (non for Dex). The stats for the race favour a Sorcerer/Warlock but you seemed to have more mentioned in passing the Quicken issue whilst predominantly talking about feat heavy melee builds better suited to other races.

As a Sorcerer/Sorlock you can easily just activate it on the first turn and quicken an spell for no/minimal damage loss (this is also ignoring how often a party is the one starting a fight so triggering the ability before hand wouldn't be too difficult). Though that's only touching the DAMAGE aspect of a three a pronged ability. The same action you're using to activate the ability you can also give yourself flight, a damaging aura, or emit a fear effect. The action to trigger isn't wasted as it provides other benefits that can immediately take effect/be utilised. I mean burning that turn on a Conquest Paladin doesn't seem so bad as you can lock down any enemies within 10feet of you AND do damage to them.

Though that isn't really my issue, the same book provides a similar ability that is restricted to once per rest, I just think that the amount of damage could do with being toned down and the kit for the Aasimar as a whole is too large, even breaking convention whilst maintaining the +2 +1 stats.

Sception

2019-10-20, 11:37 AM

Dork_Forge

2019-10-20, 12:28 PM

I did bring up sorlocks, but didn't do the numbers. Fair enough.

A level 2 warlock (for agonizing blast) level 3 sorcerer (for quicken), against the same AC 15 target, is looking at 9.35 damage per eldritch blast, with aasimar boost adding 3.99 damage per round. With quicken they will get the damage on the first round, so they pull ahead on round 3. Still not all that quickly.

It also assumes they aren't casting other buffs. If you cast darkness in the first round, a common sorlock tactic, then the aasimar buff no longer gets to trigger in the first round, so now you're back to not pulling ahead vs. just using that action for an extra eldritch blast until round four.

Granted, because feat support for casters is super limited Vuman doesn't have a flat out better damage buff feat to compare to, but it still doesn't feel out of line to me.

Again, I'm not at all arguing that it's bad, with the extra utility it's great. I just fon't feel it's out of line with phb races. Mostly based on experience with conquest paladins. Fallen Aasimar is about as tailor made for that subclass as you could ask, and even then I'd say it's only on par with vuman & half elf, due to the extreme pressure on a conqueror's starting stats & asi's. As good as the daily cha save frighten into melee damage buff is, Vuman gets sentinel at level one, while Aasimar *maybe* gets it at level 16 or 17, and even then probably only if they dipped hexblade or were gifted gauntlets of ogre strength by a benevolent GM, while the half elf probably has an extra point of con mod, which, while boring by comparison, counts for an awful lot on a melee tank, especially one that relies heavily on concentration spells. The half elf also has elven accuracy, which is a significant damage boost that aligns well with the aura of conquest / prone synergy & asks little in return.

If two PHB races are on par with Faalen Aasimar for conquest paladin, the subclass/subrace combo most mechanically aligned of any potential Aasimar build, then I just can't bring myself to see it as unacceptably OP.

Your argument kind of... argues against itself? You point out the action cost is high but then in the same breath say about setting up Darkness. You also say how huge an advantage a feat at first is but then assume a feat for the HElf. Firstly, you can't really assume feats or if a Paladin player would even want PAM, Sentinel etc. (I have a player that is all about Paladins, but loves TWF for example) or might even want a feat that has zero impact on damage output (tough, resilient etc.). You counter the fear effect with Sentinel, but their subclass aura is based entirely around frightened and the only other way the class provides for you to get that is using your action for CD or at higher levels the Fear spell. In comparison getting a chance at causing frightened whilst simultaneously setting up a damage buff (and preserving your CD for either Guided Strike or another chance at Frightened later) is just... better (and you get the extra point into Cha).

Not all Sorlocks even do the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo (personally not a fan because of the potential friendly impact and set up needed), or are Eldritch Blast machines. Feat wise for casters I feel it's more utility orientated (Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster) and passive benefits (Tough, Res:Con), the only damage based one I can think of really is Elemental Adept. A feat at first is always nice and very strong, but I never said either V. Human or HElf weren't strong choices.

My issues are that the kit is both large, breaks convention and, the damage seems high especially in comparison with the Goblin. It could have been half the level or prof mod and been more reasonable given every subrace gets pretty decent/good benefits from the form otherwise.

Side note, is the 3.9 added damage a hit chance thing? Sorry I'm not very good with the whole statistics aspect yet :)

Expected

2019-10-20, 01:34 PM

Your argument kind of... argues against itself? You point out the action cost is high but then in the same breath say about setting up Darkness. You also say how huge an advantage a feat at first is but then assume a feat for the HElf. Firstly, you can't really assume feats or if a Paladin player would even want PAM, Sentinel etc. (I have a player that is all about Paladins, but loves TWF for example) or might even want a feat that has zero impact on damage output (tough, resilient etc.). You counter the fear effect with Sentinel, but their subclass aura is based entirely around frightened and the only other way the class provides for you to get that is using your action for CD or at higher levels the Fear spell. In comparison getting a chance at causing frightened whilst simultaneously setting up a damage buff (and preserving your CD for either Guided Strike or another chance at Frightened later) is just... better (and you get the extra point into Cha).

Not all Sorlocks even do the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo (personally not a fan because of the potential friendly impact and set up needed), or are Eldritch Blast machines. Feat wise for casters I feel it's more utility orientated (Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster) and passive benefits (Tough, Res:Con), the only damage based one I can think of really is Elemental Adept. A feat at first is always nice and very strong, but I never said either V. Human or HElf weren't strong choices.

My issues are that the kit is both large, breaks convention and, the damage seems high especially in comparison with the Goblin. It could have been half the level or prof mod and been more reasonable given every subrace gets pretty decent/good benefits from the form otherwise.

Side note, is the 3.9 added damage a hit chance thing? Sorry I'm not very good with the whole statistics aspect yet :)

Nowhere in Malisteen's post did he assume a feat for the Half-Elf. Darkness+Devil's Sight/Eyes of the Dark does not require a feat as the ability to use this combo is a class feature for Sorcerers and Warlocks. If you're referring to the Cha modifier due to an ASI/half-feat, then yes, but it needs to be reflected in every situation for a proper comparison, so then the Aasimar would be allowed an ASI/feat. Malisteen is correct when he says that feat support for casters isn't really there--the best feats for casters are arguably Tough, War Caster, and Resilient: Constitution--and even then, it pales in comparison to the DPR/action economy boost martials (not just Fighters) get when they take PAM/GWM/Sharpshooter.

Have you ever played a Sorlock? It takes a minimum of one round to set up their high DPR (Darkness, Hexblade's Curse--with 1-4 attack rolls you almost need advantage to keep a high DPR) and the Aasimar feature would only delay it further or cost a use of Eldritch Blast. Assuming point-buy, at level 4, an Aasimar Sorlock can take +2 Cha or a feat, but a HElf Sorlock can have 18 Cha and triple advantage thanks to Elven Accuracy. Granted, not every Sorlock will use that combination, but optimized ones will. Are the active features, and semi-useful passives (flight and resistance), worth the opportunity cost of losing triple advantage and an 18 in an ability score at level 4? I think not.

Dork_Forge

2019-10-20, 02:58 PM

Nowhere in Malisteen's post did he assume a feat for the Half-Elf. Darkness+Devil's Sight/Eyes of the Dark does not require a feat as the ability to use this combo is a class feature for Sorcerers and Warlocks. If you're referring to the Cha modifier due to an ASI/half-feat, then yes, but it needs to be reflected in every situation for a proper comparison, so then the Aasimar would be allowed an ASI/feat. Malisteen is correct when he says that feat support for casters isn't really there--the best feats for casters are arguably Tough, War Caster, and Resilient: Constitution--and even then, it pales in comparison to the DPR/action economy boost martials (not just Fighters) get when they take PAM/GWM/Sharpshooter.

I understand full well where the Darkness Devil's Sight combo comes from, I was referring to Elven Accuracy not Darkness. I don't really understand why you're mentioning the feat support, I talked about that in the reply you quoted.

Have you ever played a Sorlock? It takes a minimum of one round to set up their high DPR (Darkness, Hexblade's Curse--with 1-4 attack rolls you almost need advantage to keep a high DPR) and the Aasimar feature would only delay it further or cost a use of Eldritch Blast. Assuming point-buy, at level 4, an Aasimar Sorlock can take +2 Cha or a feat, but a HElf Sorlock can have 18 Cha and triple advantage thanks to Elven Accuracy. Granted, not every Sorlock will use that combination, but optimized ones will. Are the active features, and semi-useful passives (flight and resistance), worth the opportunity cost of losing triple advantage and an 18 in an ability score at level 4? I think not.

Yes I have played a Sorlock, but thank you for the condescending question. You don't NEED to use Darkness to be optimised (potential problems for party, takes an action and your concentration) and you don't NEED to be a Hexblade (besides being boring, there's plenty of nice benefits/synergy in other patrons) and you certainly don't have to just be an Eldritch Blast machine.

Elven Accuracy is a fantastic (if not OP in it's own right) feat, but I still don't understand why this has turned into an Aasimar vs V.Human/HElf discussion. Access to a powerful feat (which you may not want or be able to use) has zero bearing on whether another race is over powered in it's own (self contained) right. You basically compared the ability to have EA with having two features from many of the overall Aasimar kit.

And just so we're all on the same page here, I LIKE V. Human and HElf and I'm not really a fan of the design of the Aasimar for a a few reasons.

Mercurias

2019-10-20, 03:10 PM

I'm relatively new to D&D because it took me a long time to find other people who would play. Because of that, 5E is my first edition.

My thoughts on Aasimar is that they're interesting, but that their stats are just off enough that I wouldn't consider them broken. I would probably say that Tieflings have better stat bonuses, but that Aasimar have better racial powers. You'll tend not to use them to break the game, but you could definitely use them to make some funky and interesting build concepts, like a Storm Cleric/Tempest Sorcerer who used Booming Blade.

The part of the lore involving the Aasimar that I enjoy for 5E is the bit about having what is effectively a guardian angel guiding them along. It would be pretty cool to see an Aasimar Life Cleric/Dream Druid. I enjoyed the lore from Xanathar's concerning how a Druid learns its magic, and one of the options is being visited in dreams and taught there. It would be a lot of fun for a character backstory to be a character to have those two forces occasionally in conflict.

Sception

2019-10-20, 04:09 PM

Elven accuracy for half elf is a half feat on a +2 cha race. It slots into progression without slowing stat advancement. Aasimar could take a cha half feat the same way... but with lower and less flexible stat mods apart from cha it's harder to do, and more importantly there are no good half cha feats for an aasimar to take. Not unless your DM allows menacing, and most don't, nor should they.

As for sentinel, paladins in general may or may not want it, depending on whether they're aiming to tank, dps, or otherwise. Conquerors *do* want it, badly, but don't really get to take it before end game if they aren't vuman.

Even paladins that don't want sentinel do want other feats. It's a weapon class, after all.

Sorlock doesn't get great feat options, so for damage op aasimar does look better than vuman there, but 'slightly better at some builds than vuman, while being worse at others' doesn't strike me as unreasobable.

Per darkness, point is that sorlocks already have buff actions on par with aasimar boost. and notably Darkness is a spell that drow (& half drow, if available) also get on a daily basis.

Again, I don't contest that Aasimar maybe get too many different abilities, but I still don't see the transformations specifically as out of line.