Weapon Focus (Grapple). Say what now?

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, I have been playing 3.x (and importing bits of PF) since 3.0 came out. So, like, for 19 years.

I was unaware until today that "grapple" was an option for Weapon Focus (and apparently weapon specialisation), and apparently has been since 3.0.

The mind boggles. Apparently, both 3.5 and PF copy-pasted weapon focus without really looking it over, 'cos it's still there in PF1...

And the obvious question springs to mind, what does it even do?

I mean, the most obvious (in 3.5) is that it just gives you a +1 on the melee touch attack to start a grapple? Which is... Kind of pants, even for weapon focus's narrow range. (Except in Pathfinder, that's not a thing? One presumes you would apply it to the CMB, but... When? The first time? Every time?)

Does it apply to grapple checks? You'd presume not (given that Improved Grapple exists).

Does it apply if you make an attack with a weapon with the grapple quality or if you have Grab (PF) or Improved Grab (3.50?



Weapon spec grapple at least seems more obvious in what it does... To start with. Obviously, it applies to every grapple check you make to deal deal damage, but what about, say, Swallow Whole or Contrict? (In 3.5, does it apply twice, ocne you grapple damage and once to constrict damage?)



For a clearly-deeply overlooked (there don't even apper to be more than a couple of equally bewildered threads google-able on it, unless there were perhaps more on WotC once upon a time) one-line in a fairly commonly feat, it raises rather a lot of questions.



Any ideas?

[ericgrau]

A strict reading says it applies only to the touch attack. A looser reading takes "like a melee attack" to include a +1 to the grapple check. But this is less likely to be RAW/RAI. As a DM I'd allow it to apply to both, and I'd also limit/nerf book options to keep weapon focus viable in general. But I'm not so sure that that is the actual intent. Early on part of the design philosophy was let the player do anything and make him figure out what actually works best, which was a bad idea. Contrary to myth, the goal wasn't to insert intentionally weak options. Highly situational or simply there for the sake of completeness, possibly, but not solely to be a weak trap in all circumstances. They may have included grapple simply as a matter of flexibility and completeness. I say that because they say unarmed strikes and rays in the same sentence, and grapple may have been piled onto that. Now they might also have intended to give a +1 to grapple checks, to treat grapple checks as like an attack roll for feat purposes too, but that's far from certain.

[Psyren]

(Except in Pathfinder, that's not a thing? One presumes you would apply it to the CMB, but... When? The first time? Every time?)

In Pathfinder this is very easy - all CMB checks are attack rolls, whether they happen at the start of a maneuver or in the middle or anywhere else. So if WF (Grapple) is indeed a thing, it would apply to every single CMB check you make to grapple, whether that's to initiate, maintain, break free, gain control or anything else.

[Aotrs Commander]

In Pathfinder this is very easy - all CMB checks are attack rolls, whether they happen at the start of a maneuver or in the middle or anywhere else. So if WF (Grapple) is indeed a thing, it would apply to every single CMB check you make to grapple, whether that's to initiate, maintain, break free, gain control or anything else.

It is! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-focus-combat/) I even checked the wording on the proper Pathfinder SRD as well.

The fact that this appears to be news to someone with your encyclopedic knowledge clearly shows how frequently it has been noticed by anyone else over the years, and makes me feel a bit better...!

[Psyren]

It is! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-focus-combat/) I even checked the wording on the proper Pathfinder SRD as well.

The fact that this appears to be news to someone with your encyclopedic knowledge clearly shows how frequently it has been noticed by anyone else over the years, and makes me feel a bit better...!

I mean, I didn't know this was a thing in 3.5 either, but thanks? :smalltongue:

Regardless, spending a feat on a whole +1 to grapple, especially when it's not a prereq for anything better, doesn't seem like it would be worth it anyway.

[GrayDeath]

Probably comes from just about everyone ignoring Grapple in most cases.

I didnt know this existed either.....

[Mr Adventurer]

Can you by extension go up the Fighter specialisation feat tree? Improved WF? Improved Specialisation? Melee Weapon Mastery? Weapon Supremacy?

[Aotrs Commander]

Can you by extension go up the Fighter specialisation feat tree? Improved WF? Improved Specialisation? Melee Weapon Mastery? Weapon Supremacy?

Greater Focus and spec, yes (explicty, again), melee weapon mastery no. (So supremacy is also out); and I'd lay odds that by the time 3.5's PHB2 came out, the writers of THAt had probably forgotten this was a thing as well...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Greater Focus and spec, yes (explicty, again), melee weapon mastery no. (So supremacy is also out); and I'd lay odds that by the time 3.5's PHB2 came out, the writers of THAt had probably forgotten this was a thing as well...

Why not? It's bludgeoning damage, same as an unarmed strike.

[Aotrs Commander]

Why not? It's bludgeoning damage, same as an unarmed strike.

By strict reading of RAW specifically? The phrasing of Melee Weapon Mastery specifies it must be a melee weapon. (Which grapple isn't.) The weapon focus/spec feats explictly say "a melee weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple..." I.e, those feats explictly called out grapple as an option on the other feats, but Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't. Probably because they completely forgot (most likely) that it was ever an option to take grapple.



I mean, if you want to say that you'd say it would, I'm not going to argue - it's hardly gonna break the game, is it? It's really not worth that much debate we're talking about something so obscure that I suspect almost no-one has ever done it, so... (And there are probably way better things to spend your feats on, even as a grapple-focus fighter.)



Actually, you know, thinking about it, more pertinently, you don't deal damage with a grapple check; the damage your opponent action uses unarmed strike damage anyway, so Melee Weapon Mastery Unarmed Strike would cover it as well. (And per the PHBII errata, Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't stack with itself on the same weapon, so you couldn't take it on grapple and unarmed strike twice).

I mean, I 'sppose if you really wanted to take it so you'd get an extra +2 onto your melee touch attack to start a grapple... But, I mean, a fighter (who is the only one likely to be taking it) who is grapple focussed is kind of unlikely to be in a position where they need a bonus to hit on touch attacks.

(In fact, I submit that the only reason to take weapon focus (grapple) would be as a fighter to get the weapon spec to damage, where it would, I guess, stack with unarmed strike damage? But that's a lot of feats you're sinking in for not a huge amount of damage.)

Again, if you decided to read it differently, it kind of doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things, really.

[Crake]

Weapon focus only applies to attack rolls made with a particular weapon. Unarmed strike is a weapon, touch attacks maybe? But "grapple" isn't a weapon, and thus weapon focus does not apply. I do not follow your logic in how you come to the conclusion that it is.

Oh, I see where it says it now. That's an odd place to make that specification. For anyone else who's as confused as me, it's in what would normally be considered by people as the "flavour text".

[Bartmanhomer]

Is that even possible? :confused:

[Aotrs Commander]

Weapon focus only applies to attack rolls made with a particular weapon. Unarmed strike is a weapon, touch attacks maybe? But "grapple" isn't a weapon, and thus weapon focus does not apply. I do not follow your logic in how you come to the conclusion that it is.

Oh, I see where it says it now. That's an odd place to make that specification. For anyone else who's as confused as me, it's in what would normally be considered by people as the "flavour text".

Which probably why this is news to the vast majority of us, because I suspect we've read it like once properly (like, 19 years ago in my case) and then completely forgotten about it, because Weapon Focus is so ubiquitous, who needs to look it up, right?




Is that even possible? :confused:


Weapon Focus [General]
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +1 or higher.
The character can choose “unarmed strike” or “grapple” for the character's weapon for purposes of this feat. The character can choose “ray,” in which case the character is especially good with rays.
Benefit: The character adds +1 to all attack rolls the character makes using the selected weapon.
Special: The character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the character takes the feat, it applies to a new weapon.


Weapon Focus [General]
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit:You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.


Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

For the last near two decades, apparently.

[daremetoidareyo]

a warblade's first level weapon adaptation opens up some hijinx.


Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice session to make this change. For example, if you wish to change the designated weapon for your Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, you must have a longsword available to practice with during your practice session.

You can adjust any number of your feats in this way, and you don't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, you can't change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet the prerequisite for some other feat you possess. For instance, if you have both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), you can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless you also change the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.

Warblades weapon aptitude hijinx for weapon focus (grapple)

tormtor school will allow you to throw a grapple after you grapple.

Crossbow sniper will allow you to add 1/2 of your dex to grapple damage

lightning maces will allow extra grapples for when you roll a threat

Hellsworn gives an additional +1d6 unholy damage

polemaster allows you to flurry with grapples if you have a flurry attack

ring the golden bell is interesting, more ranged grapples, and if you have extra grappling effects, they work at range too.

three mountains will allow you to nauseate your opponent if you grapple damage them twice in a round

wind and fire causes bleed damage

vile martial strike adds 1 point of vile damage per instance of damage

stonebreaker gives you rend if you hit with both of your grapples

bladebearer of the valenar/darguun mauler/mror stalwart allows you to treat grapple as a martial weapon, which means you can treat it as a martial weapon.

boomerang ricochet is ridiculous