Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

[FilthyLucre]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?

[HappyDaze]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?

Nope. That feat is not for them, it's for Dragonborn that don't have that class feature.

[LordEntrails]

Nope. That feat gives you a new way to calculate AC, it doesn't increase your AC for other calculation methods.

[FilthyLucre]

Nope. That feat is not for them, it's for Dragonborn that don't have that class feature.

You don't think spending a whole feat/ASI is worth getting something Warforged gets for free?

[FilthyLucre]

Nope. That feat gives you a new way to calculate AC, it doesn't increase your AC for other calculation methods.

I understand how the feat works. I'm asking about a house rule - not a RAW rule. Also, you clearly didn't really catch the question since I wasn't "increasing their AC" but in fact changing the way it's calculated.

[Sherlockpwns]

I'd probably make it more akin to medium armor, ac 15 + dex Max 3? Basically if avoid letting a feat give them heavy armor level power. This feat would basically let them avoid having to pump dex to 20. Its probably not a huge deal, but to put it in perspective the only feat that is similar would be medium armor master, so this would be as similar to that as possible.

[FilthyLucre]

I'd probably make it more akin to medium armor, ac 15 + dex Max 3? Basically if avoid letting a feat give them heavy armor level power. This feat would basically let them avoid having to pump dex to 20. Its probably not a huge deal, but to put it in perspective the only feat that is similar would be medium armor master, so this would be as similar to that as possible.

...Dude do people read on this forum?? That's exactly what I proposed.

[LordEntrails]

A DM can allow any houserule they want. I would not allow that houserule at my table. If the other (minimal) benefits of the feat are not worth it, then don't take the feat.

Personally, I'm very.... I don't allow houserules that give me any type of taste that the player is looking to min/max. AC is one of the things that if you allow players to mess with it makes the game MUCH less fun.

[FilthyLucre]

A DM can allow any houserule they want. I would not allow that houserule at my table. If the other (minimal) benefits of the feat are not worth it, then don't take the feat.

Personally, I'm very.... I don't allow houserules that give me any type of taste that the player is looking to min/max. AC is one of the things that if you allow players to mess with it makes the game MUCH less fun.

This is pretty paranoid. A Sorcerer can get 16 AC naturally without house rules by being a warforged.

[Garfunion]

This is pretty paranoid. A Sorcerer can get 16 AC naturally without house rules by being a warforged.
A warforged can not change their armor to a type they are not proficient in. And I’m sure the official version of their integrated armor will be different.

[FilthyLucre]

A warforged can not change their armor to a type they are not proficient in.
They can if they take a feat to become proficient in it... Also, if people couldn't tell, I AM the DM in question.

[FilthyLucre]

A warforged can not change their armor to a type they are not proficient in. And I’m sure the official version of their integrated armor will be different.

I am absolutely positive it will not - it is not even slightly OP. It's almost a ribbon. It saves a Warforged fighter a whole 75gp.

[bid]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?
The best medium armor is 15 + Dex(2) and a sorcerer would need 2 feats to get there.

I might trade a feat for attunement, replacing bracers of defense with a feat that does both MAM and "natural breastplate" to give AC14+3 with Dex16. Otherwise, just ask for bracers of defense and be done with it. In no way I would allow both this and bracers.

[FilthyLucre]

The best medium armor is 15 + Dex(2) and a sorcerer would need 2 feats to get there.

I might trade a feat for attunement, replacing bracers of defense with a feat that does both MAM and "natural breastplate" to give AC14+3 with Dex16. Otherwise, just ask for bracers of defense and be done with it.

I'm the DM - I don't need to "ask" for anything. Also, it's really only worth a single feat since the character already had Natural armor of 13 + Dex - being a draconic sorcerer.

[bid]

I'm the DM - I don't need to "ask" for anything. Also, it's really only worth a single feat since the character already had Natural armor of 13 + Dex - being a draconic sorcerer.
Well, give them bracers of defense then.

[Garfunion]

I am absolutely positive it will not - it is not even slightly OP. It's almost a ribbon.
You could alway give the dragon sorcerer the ability to switch their AC 13 + dex to 13 + con. It would be a bit more thematic.

[FilthyLucre]

Well, give them bracers of defense then.

Spending a feat is the appropriate way to have that sort of permanent improvement - not just throwing someone a magic item that doesn't have any cost/benefit to it.

[Garfunion]

Spending a feat is the appropriate way to have that sort of permanent improvement - not just throwing someone a magic item that doesn't have any cost/benefit to it.

Your the DM. Do what you want. What kind of answer did you need the community here to answer?

Also


They can if they take a feat to become proficient in it... Also, if people couldn't tell, I AM the DM in question. A sorcerer needs two feats to get medium armor level of ac.

[Evaar]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?

I would with the caveat of capping the dex bonus to +2. This would make it basically equivalent to the medium armor proficiency feat.

[FilthyLucre]

Your the DM. Do what you want. What kind of answer did you need the community here to answer?

Also

A sorcerer needs two feats to get medium armor level of ac.

Yes - but they are granted what amounts to light armor proficiency by their subclass.

[BarneyBent]

...Dude do people read on this forum?? That's exactly what I proposed.

No it isn’t. He proposed 15+Dex to a max of 3. 15+Dex would allow a 20 Dex Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer with a single level of a class that grants Shield proficiency (e.g. Paladin, it’s not like Sorcadins aren’t already OP) a base AC of 22.

[Theodoxus]

Well, to be completely honest, 13 AC is the low end of medium, not the high end of light.

To answer your original question, since I went back to the 4E style of generating AC, I'd have no issue with allowing the feat to grant a +2 boon to the dragon sorcerer's AC.

People have this irrational fear of bending or breaking Bounded Accuracy - or granting one class/subclass/race a bonus that will open up a rift and cause the universe to implode or something.

If you homebrew something, and you're finding 9/10 players are gravitating to that new shiny object, not because it's new and shiny, but because it's broke AF, then fix it. But this is not that... at least, it shouldn't be. There are a number of ways to get a decent AC. If you didn't cap it at +3 (a reasonable compromise that isn't in your OP), then AC 22 (with shield and 20 Dex) is max non-magical. That's quite decent (and still requires MC or feat to get that shield prof), though with Shield it can start to get ridiculous, but you're the DM, in theory, you know what you're doing/throwing at your players.

Personally, I add proficiency to AC - it lets me throw harder critters at the party. So, someone with a 22 AC isn't uncommon in my campaigns... it tends to be the lower end of the heavy armors. :smallwink:

[Sparky McDibben]

If you're trying to raise the sorcerer's AC, there's a lot easier ways to do it than a feat. If the player wanted to do this because they thought it was cool and flavorful, then sure. If you as the DM just want the character to be less squishy, give out bracers of defense.

There's a few other ways to do this, too. You could allow them to modify their spells. You could go nuts with that one (A shield spell that scales up! Give them the light clerics warding flare ability!). Or, you and the player could workout a sidequest to draw him closer to his draconic heritage and upgrade his ancestral ability by +1 as an epic boon. To be clear, not saying those are good ideas, just options.

[HappyDaze]

You don't think spending a whole feat/ASI is worth getting something Warforged gets for free?

Nope. At most, a feat would probably give +1 AC. Besides, if you want what warforged have, then play a warforged.

[loki_ragnarock]

I am absolutely positive it will not - it is not even slightly OP. It's almost a ribbon. It saves a Warforged fighter a whole 75gp.

More like 1500gp to start and then an difficult to define amount of gp over time.

It's broken. I still theory craft with warforged because being broken makes doing certain things easier.



For the OP:
Let's think about it this way. Someone has mentioned that it takes two feats for a Sorcerer to get to medium armor naturally. Which is fair enough.

But the question to always ask yourself when considering boosting the AC of a full arcane caster is "what is this number actually going to be after they cast Shield?"

The answer, much like the rent, is too damn high.

Don't do it. If they want a higher AC tell them to expend 2 feats (nerfing their casting stat in exchange) or multi-class (nerfing their spellcasting progression in exchange.)
Given the extremely high cost of what the normal exchange would be, I'd err on the side of no; unhittable full casters are a pain in the ass to manage. They can occur naturally, but when they do they are typically less powerful casters as a result.

[rlc]

As long as the guy knows that that isn't the way it really works and you're doing it for the purposes of rule of cool, I say go for it. I'd probably still give him an item instead, though.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

...Dude do people read on this forum?? That's exactly what I proposed.

Its fine but should you do something similar for the rest of the players in the fame then?

[bid]

Spending a feat is the appropriate way to have that sort of permanent improvement - not just throwing someone a magic item that doesn't have any cost/benefit to it.
You have 3 attunements, you have 5 feats. Bracers have a "cost".

But since you're the DM, you should know the RAF better than we do. All we can say is if it's balanced or not.

[dragoeniex]

You asked for advice on whether DMs would personally allow that house rule in their games. You're allowed to answer "yes," and that's fine, but you've been combative with every person that disagrees or offers insight into why it might be too strong.

If you only want to hear one side of a debate, you've already made up your mind. Please be polite to the people who take a few minutes out of their day to offer perspectives you asked them for.

Thank you.

[JNAProductions]

You're using Warforged as a balancing point. Specifically, Warforged AC.

That's an absolutely HORRIBLE point to balance to-with the exception of those who get no armor proficiencies, Warforged have ridiculously high AC. (And even those who get no armor proficiencies still benefit a little bit, but +1 AC (capping at 16 base) isn't a huge deal. It's the AC 22 before a shield, Shield, or magic items that's ridiculous.)

[micahaphone]

So, default, a dragonborn with max dex has an AC cap of 18 before spells. If you modified the feat to still give a cap like that (15 + dex max 3) or the better (16+dex max 2), you're letting them get part of the effect of raising their dex early, but not the other great parts of dex (initiative, dex saves). I think that's a good tradeoff.

The feat then effectively lets you worry less about your dex, and can focus on cha and con or other feats as you level.

[Ghost Nappa]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?

I've only DM'd twice but I'm pretty lenient. I'd allow it.

[Teaguethebean]

This is pretty paranoid. A Sorcerer can get 16 AC naturally without house rules by being a warforged.

If your starting point for balance is warforged we have other problems.

[Anymage]

So, default, a dragonborn with max dex has an AC cap of 18 before spells. If you modified the feat to still give a cap like that (15 + dex max 3) or the better (16+dex max 2), you're letting them get part of the effect of raising their dex early, but not the other great parts of dex (initiative, dex saves). I think that's a good tradeoff.

The feat then effectively lets you worry less about your dex, and can focus on cha and con or other feats as you level.

Dragon Hide does delay raising Dex, by eating an ASI. (You do also get a point of Str, Con, or Cha back out of the feat, as well as a minor claw attack ribbon.) Which creates two potential options, neither of which strikes me as too OP.

The first is a rogue, dex fighter, or dex paladin. First, any of these builds would have to sink a level into sorcerer for that part of the AC bonus. Second, since dragonborn don't have a dex bonus or anything to enhance agile characters, you need two and a half ASIs to raise your Dex to 20. Three ASIs for stat raising plus one for the feat means that you're thirteenth level at the earliest for this build. If you try it with a sorcadin who doesn't get the bonus ASIs that fighters and rogues do, you're looking at 16 at the earliest. 20 AC before anything else is nice, but the heavy armor types are probably rocking +1 or +2 plate at this point for essentially the same. One cool trick that comes online a bit into tier 3 isn't that broken in and of itself.

If the character wants to go pure sorc, the big question is when they want to squeeze in the boosts. While it's potentially doable, focusing on the build early means not placing ASIs into your casting stat, while focusing on it after maxing Cha means that the build only blossoms towards the end of your career. Remember that towards the end of your career is also when legendary items like the robe of archmagi (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/robe-of-the-archmagi) start to come online. Read that, and ask if the attunement slot is really that big an ask compared to having to sink a feat and your race for the dragon hide option.

[HiveStriker]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?
I'd allow it.
It's a bit powerful, but nothing really problematic either. I simply don't get all the people crying out loud like virgins facing a troll.
Honestly, any Sorcerer can get medium armor level for start with a simple Mage Armor: having less than 14 DEX is a bad idea anyways. Having 16 is kinda a tradeoff but it's a legit choice. And I don't know any class with medium armor proficiency that would start with an armor giving more than 14+2.
Divine Soul Sorcerer gets it even better at low level with Shield of Faith.

Furthermore, any Sorcerer that really wants a high AC could simply pick a starting level of Fighter for heavy armor + Defense (so 19 base AC).
Any Sorcerer could also simply dip a level in Life Cleric (you usually don't want to get low WIS either, so managing a 13 is perfectly easy to do especially if you lower DEX in exchange).
And Cleric also has several domains that make it "a fullcaster with tank-grade starting AC".
You could yet also put the Bladesinger Wizard in the same category: although it lasts a minute only, it's non-concentration and is usable twice per short rest.

In other words, if people are afraid of "casters with starting 19+ AC", they should stop playing altogether. This has always been a thing.

The point about "it's before taking Shield into account" is equally moot imo. Shield requires a slot, which is costly. It's not like you can spam it. Unless you dedicate yourself to being a caster that wades into melee with weapon cantrips or the like and using spells just for self-buffs. In which case you're effectively underplaying your class as soon as you get level 3 spells and more, so giving a boost in AC is really not a problem.

In addition to that, for your player's Sorcerer to really reach high AC, it would still require him to push DEX. With Sorcerer having no extra ASIs, and having a lower number of spell known than others, you usually want as high a CHA as possible. And since many good spells are concentration, you also want a good CON score.
-> Getting a really good AC will require a hefty tradeoff whatever way you look at it.

You allowing player to grab it makes it just a tad better than if he had planned on a multiclass ahead. Nothing more.

EDIT: by the way, no worries about your OP formulation, it was perfectly clear. It's just that people don't (can't) always take the time of properly reading thread before posting. XD

[bid]

Furthermore, any Sorcerer that really wants a high AC could simply pick a starting level of Fighter for heavy armor + Defense (so 19 base AC).
So, Str15 or mobile?

[intregus]

I'd allow it. I find the Dragonborn race to be a little underpowered and I find the sorcerer class to be so pigeonholed into 1 role, that I consider them underpowered in every other role a players wants to play.

So I'd allow it.

[Evaar]

I don't understand people claiming this would be OP. Assuming we cap the Dex bonus to +2, how is it more OP than Medium Armor Proficiency? The tradeoffs are that it's a half-feat with a stat a Sorcerer can use, he gets a (pretty useless for a Sorcerer) claw attack, and he doesn't have to actually wear armor that causes disadvantage on stealth checks. But he also doesn't gain proficiency with shields. So his likely AC is lower than someone who took Medium Armor Proficiency.

So what are we saying is OP? Losing the stealth disadvantage? Gaining +1 Cha instead of +1 Dex? Being able to skip past Light Armor Proficiency first (when the obvious solution is just to take a level of cleric rather than 8 levels worth of ASIs devoted to the same result)?

It's fine. You're fine. Let them have the bonus. It's not a big deal. It's +2 compared to what he'd get anyway. Just cap the Dex bonus to +2.

[GeneralVryth]

I will add another vote of support behind combining the feat with the Draconic Bloodine changing the math to (if the player wants) 15 + Dex (max +3). As it is Dragonborn are one of the weakest mechanical races in the game. Dragon Hide as a feat is niche at best, other than the stat adjustments everything it gives most classes start off with better options naturally. To make things worse Dragonborn racial resistance already overlaps the optional resistance of the Elemental Affinity granted by Draconic Bloodline (assuming the colors are the same, which is the most likely outcome if you are focusing on flavor). It seems wrong to build a character through logical choices based on flavor (a Dragonborn Sorcerer having a Draconic Bloodline) and having it be worse mechanically than more average options.

Now with that said, I do agree with the idea that Warforged are dangerous to balance against in terms of racially granted AC (or AC in general). The mark was probably overshot a little with them. The fact that other races which should have similar bonuses (like Dragonborn) just seem pointless in comparison to even the more average races doesn't help matters.

[HiveStriker]

So, Str15 or mobile?
It's true that having 10 feet less can be a bit daunting at times.
So I'd probably grab Mobile if I were to make such a Sorcerer AND I wanted to build it as a kinda meleeish guy with melee cantrip.

If I want to stay as a caster though, honestly it's not that big a deal.
I mean, in essence you don't want to stay near the frontline neither too much in the open. So you'd usually want to move back to keep as much distance as possible without gimping yourself.

Meaning the 10 feet difference should really feel a burden only during the first two levels, and after that only rarely cause trouble (well, I'm making the assumption here you're playing in a party, and that party has one or two ways to create and maintain a frontline. Otherwise you'd better simply bail XD).

Worst case, at low level rely on Expeditious Retreat or Shield to compensate any lack of hindsight or plain surprise. You then quickly get a good choice of defensive spells, either cushioning (Mirror Image) or avoiding (Misty Step), or even concentration spells if you tend to rely on otherwise cantrips/blasting (Blur/Darkness) or simply want to just flee (Invisibility).
It then goes wider and wider in choice. :)

Sure, Sorcerer knows less known spells than others, so it's not like you can keep everything at hand, you have to make hard choices (plus so many great offensive spells requiring concentration gives an edge to non-concentration options for defense).
So that kind of build is clearly complex to play.
But hey, Sorcerer is already complex to build and play in essence, so it's just one added layer. XD
(Also, small confession here: I rarely play Sorcerer without just one level into something else. I'm just a craver for spell diversity at low level ^^).

In any case I wouldn't see boosting STR worth it. Unless, again, you make a "melee caster but wanted Sorcerer at any cost for fluff" (otherwise, unless multiclass, you simply have better options overall imo).

To be honest however, a Sorcerer in heavy armor is not necessarily something I'd like to play really. I was just stressing the fact it was easy to build early without causing any unmanageable problems (I mean, several Cleric Domains have the exact same "problem", and I never saw many people complaining about it really). :)

[micahaphone]

Now I'm imagining a metal covered dragonborn waddling frantically behind his friends while they chase after a thief.

[chando]

Question for the DMs out there:

Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?

Yes.
in a home game, as a dm, see no problem.
Even if they invest in a 20 Dex. Thats at least two ASI(except on very lucky ability rolls) and a feat, not spent on Cha or improving casting. If they want to have great protection from both being very agile and having (twice the amout of) draconic scales. Let them be the single class Sorcerer with a good AC. its not like he could not ask to play a stone sorcerer or god forbid, multiclass a level or two for armor proficiency.

Edit: brainfarted, forgot the feat could bump Cha. Still most of the argument stands as its far from OP to have armor class.