Player Help Tempest, Storm, Control build [Archive]

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Fryy

2019-10-20, 01:52 AM

loki_ragnarock

2019-10-20, 05:55 AM

Fryy

2019-10-20, 10:08 AM

For this specific build I would consider an oft overlooked metamagic: Distant Spell.

This allows you to make Distant Shocking Grasps, for a low resource option for pushing people around the battlefield. Because when you push someone off a cliff, do you really want to invest a bunch of resources into it? Further, if you have a gimmick, anything that enables you to use that gimmick more often feels awesome.

Further, it synergizes nicely with quicken, allowing you to pop off a push with an action against a single target on a turn where you still want to get your non-gimmick spells off.

So for metamagic, I'd pull Quicken and Distant as the top players.

EDIT
For tactics, there's the obvious advantage of being able to push things so that they more conveniently fall into a 120 ft line for lighting bolt. But sometimes you need to pull, too, where lightning lure comes in.

Hmm... Distant Spell would change Shocking Grasp from range 0 to range 30. Now assuming I am 20-30 feet back from the 'front lines' the options would be:
1- Stay put, spend 1 metamagic point to distant cast shocking grasp on 1 enemy at the front.
2- Move up to the front, spend 1 metamagic to twin cast shocking grasp on 2 enemies, move back 10 feet unprovoked due to Storm Sorcerer level 1 feature.

I think Twin wins in that scenario above. Also, I favor Healing Word (possibly twinned) over Cure Wounds (possibly distant).

For more open combats (where distant 60 ft. Shatter might work) I would have Call Lightning.

So, I think Quicken and Twin still beats Quicken and Distant.

HiveStriker

2019-10-21, 06:29 AM

Hi,

I'm looking to build a Tempest Cleric / Storm Sorcerer that is non-melee and uses the 6th levels Tempest and Storm features for forced movement and battlefield control. A friend recommended the build. His character was more melee. I want something more caster/backline because our party has a lot of melee already.

Starting level is effectively level 5 since AL allows switching builds until level 5. I will definitely go straight to Cleric 6 and then to Sorcerer 6 probably ending at 6 Cleric / 9 Sorcerer. Going Cleric first is for role-play and a need for some Cleric utility early on.

Stats: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 16 <-- medium armor & shield, Aasimar, Cha focused
Feats: War Caster at 4th (This is if I need to hold a weapon or staff and cast Shield or etc.)

Wis vs Cha?
Any thoughts on Wis vs Cha? I am planning to max Cha and let Wis stay at 14. Call Lightning is the only non-Sorcerer lightning spell for which I couldn't use Wis. So, between the 2 spell lists, I think i'll need the saving throws more for Sorcerer spells.

Metamagic?
I am trying to decide the best 2 out of 3 between Quicken, Twin, and Subtle. Really I think Quicken and Twin are best for the forced movement concept, but Subtle is hard to give up. So, it's a question of whether anyone could talk me out of both Quicken and Twin.

Tactics?
What interesting spells and metamagic combos come to mind? particularly for the more routine combats?
Call Lightning is a given outdoors. I was thinking that Dragon Breath (lightning obviously) could be good. I'll have Aasimar flight and extra non-provoke movement from Storm Sorcerer 6... so getting in and out of close range should be possible.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing about folks' stories or theorycrafting.
Hi!

Well, since your archetypes are chosen already, it's simple.

WIS vs CHA
MAX CHA. Why?
1. Wis counts for prepared spells, but it's really a matter of 2-3 more spells. You can perfectly live without it. ESPECIALLY since...
a) You get (good) bonus spells 'for free' thanks to Domain.
b) You can change spells every day.
c) Apart from Spirit Guardians and possibly Spiritual Weapon, you have enough great Cleric spells that don't care about your WIS.
d) You probably won't use Spirit Guardians much considering your thematic and your multiclass. Same with Spiritual Weapon.
2. Tempest features don't care at all whether you cast a cleric spell or a sorcerer spell.
So you 'll pick Booming Blade and Shocking Grasp / Lightning Lure *as a Sorcerer* for your go-to attacks (at least I suppose). So you want as good as possible to-hit on them.
Same with Shatter: it's a waste of a spell since prepared as Cleric, but nothing prevents you to learn it as Sorcerer "for now" then swap it for, say, Lightning Bolt when getting level 5 (you'll still have Shatter from Cleric as utility or low level max-damage).

3. Sorcerer has the best offensive, lightning themed spells.
Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning (ok, this one will be far-fetched because it means char level 15). Nothing more to add.

Metamagic?
Among the three you said, it's easy: ditch Twin.
It's overall NOT worth it imo. Reasons?
a) It's *very expensive quickly* because it scales by level. AND since you're doing a "heavy multiclass" (dual class, but balanced levels) you'll have to cope with a low pool of Sorcery points for a very long time. That's really a prime reason.
b) You don't need it for damage: sure, twinning a booming blade might seem nice, but before level 11, it will be simply less impressive than a regular Shatter (provided you use CD on both). Also, twinning booming blade implies you're in melee. Not sure you really want that as your usual way of fighting really. xd And later you'll get enough AOE options.
c) You don't need it for buffs: sure, you could twin great spells like Enhance Ability or Haste. But how often will you REALLY want to simply buff partners when you have so many great AOE control/damage spells to use, which also use concentration? It's not like you're planning to be a full support, otherwise why pick those archetypes? :)
d) You don't really need it for heals: Quicken Aid, although more costly, is enough imo because it should not happen too often to have two/three allies down at the same time (if it happens every fight there is probably something to improve in how you manage encounters XD).

So I'd pick Subtle whatever happens, to pair with a learn/prepare of Enhance Ability (great for non-hostile encounters, buffing pal for Sneak / negociations).
For the other, I'd pick either Quicken (good to correct situation when you realize you really needed to land a powerful spell right now) OR...
- Distant: if you want to stay out of range, this can be a great way to still provide emergency healing (60 feet Healing Words) or provide powerful opening spell without enemy having any chance to detect and react (like 240 feet Hypnotic Pattern / ~200 Stinking Cloud).
- Extend ONLY if you want to use buffs like Mage Armor, Aid or Death Ward or party-wide protections during adventuring.
- Careful otherwise, as long as you discuss with your DM to know exactly how he rules it (can be great to land a Hypnotic Pattern or Fear for example).

Tactics
Honestly, I don't know what to say without knowing anything about party composition and your own taste. :)

loki_ragnarock

2019-10-21, 07:03 PM

Hmm... Distant Spell would change Shocking Grasp from range 0 to range 30. Now assuming I am 20-30 feet back from the 'front lines' the options would be:
1- Stay put, spend 1 metamagic point to distant cast shocking grasp on 1 enemy at the front.
2- Move up to the front, spend 1 metamagic to twin cast shocking grasp on 2 enemies, move back 10 feet unprovoked due to Storm Sorcerer level 1 feature.

I think Twin wins in that scenario above. Also, I favor Healing Word (possibly twinned) over Cure Wounds (possibly distant).

For more open combats (where distant 60 ft. Shatter might work) I would have Call Lightning.

So, I think Quicken and Twin still beats Quicken and Distant.

Sometimes I have to remember to explain why my ideas are brilliant instead of assuming people will find them as obvious as I do.

Okay.

So you want to play a tempest cleric/storm sorcerer, but you want to do it as a person who doesn't engage directly in the melee and also functions as a battlefield controller. Kudos! There's actually a way to do this super effectively, but you have to ditch Twin and take Distant instead. Now I'll attempt to explain why, though I admit the explanation is much easier when you have access to a battle grid.

As a sorcerer/cleric, you might have a couple of powers that make you more mobile, but they are limited use and may have a high opportunity cost in terms of the actions you have available or the use of concentration. The base mobility ability provided by storm sorcerer gives you a slight edge, but for the most part you have your 30 ft movement speed to rely on. The power requires a bonus action, and thus stymies your ability to maximize the utility of your turn; it's a clutch move for getting out of danger consequence free when you would otherwise be pinned down. While it's useful to have, using it is a tacit admission of defeat for someone functioning as a battlefield controller. Your entire shtick is managing other people's space.

In short, you can use it as described, but you aren't living up to your full potential as a character that dominates battlefield positioning.

Thinking from another angle, you've described how you'd use Twin in basically an optimal scenario; two enemies that are approachable and can be positioned in such a way as you can smack them individually while navigating the space available from your already melee heavy party. Which isn't likely to be a round by round opportunity to exploit, but more importantly has you using your ability to hurl your foes hither and yon amongst and around your melee heavy party members; having someone from the back lines move the enemy away from their immediate melee reach may not be something that they appreciate. It's nice to be able to do in a clutch situation... but clutch situations means you're already tactically compromised. I'd also point out that in this scenario you're (probably) blowing them away in different directions, which isn't always going to be optimal for your follow up. Further, because the point of impact is totally adjacent, the room for arguing optimal placement becomes very constrained.

Gods, but this thinking is easier to demonstrate with a battlegrid.

Okay, the next thing to consider; lightning bolt. A 120 ft line. A line is defined by two points in space; which is to say that setting up a lightning bolt that hits two targets is easy. Setting it up so that it hits any more than that is significantly harder.

That's why you select distant spell; it gives you the ability to use your push rider from lightning damage to start setting up the battlefield in a way that creates those three and four point lines more readily. Yes, you're only pushing the one guy at a time, but you can do it from more angles and more easily use your precious movement to get into the optimal position to rip off that multi-point line. You manage to stay our of your melee heavy party's hair. Perhaps most importantly, because the point of impact isn't directly adjacent, it becomes much easier to argue more favorable ending positions for the push effect.

"Your point is that I can use lightning bolt better? That's lame, blasters are overrat..."

Let me stop you naysayers right there; because of thunderbolt strike, lightning bolt is as much a control spell as it is a blasting spell. One that can be used in combination with some of the greatest spells of all; the spells that take an area of the battlefield and turn it into a nightmare.

Cloud of Daggers - For other casters, this spell is situational, but for you it's bread and butter badassery. 4d4 damage every time a creature enters the area on a *turn* isn't nothing, and this is one of those spells that upcasts particularly well. The area it controls is small, but your ability to push people around so easily opens up a world of opportunity.

So!

Your best case scenario for Twin shocking grasp is okay; it's sudden, it's effective, it's over.

Your best case for Distant relies on thinking like a master tactician. The best, most ludicrously ideal case looks like this:
Turn 1:
Cast Cloud of Daggers. Lets say as a 4th level spell for 8d4 damage.
Turn 2:
Three enemies, not quite in a line.
Distant Shocking Grasp/Distant Lighting Lure to move them into position. *Ideally* so that two are adjacent in that line next to Cloud of Daggers. Your positing level 12, so lets assume shocking grasp for 3d8 damage (13-14 damage)
Move to where that sweet, sweet 120ft line can originate with the mobility provided by your full movement and you are *also* within 10ft of the first target.
Destructive Wrath enhanced Quicken Lightning Bolt. 3rd level is fine. (48 damage. +3 damage to the guy within 10 ft.)
All enemies in that line are pushed 10 feet, throwing two of them through Cloud of Daggers ( 20 more damage)
One of those two is starting his turn in Cloud of Daggers, lets say the guy what you shocking grasped into the line. (20 more damage)

Let's Review:
The target you shocking grasped, max lightning bolted, pushed into cloud of daggers, and started his turn in the same cloud? 101-102 points of damage.
The target you max lightning bolted and pushed into cloud of daggers? 68 damage.
The target you max lightning bolted in Heart of the Storm range? 51 damage.
220 damage in a round isn't chump change.

And yeah, that ideal round is possible with twin... it's just an even harder needle to thread, with more constrained movement, more difficult angles of attack, dodging squares occupied by allies, etc.

Because you've got such a huge potential for pushing/pulling enemies at relatively low cost, Distant couples well for getting those battlefield positions the enemy really doesn't want to occupy. Distant shocking grasp lets you push them. Distant Lightning Lure lets you pull them from the same range. And that gives you a flexibility that Twin simply doesn't have. It also enables you to cheaply do things like keep the enemy within your melee allies zone of control, or the zones of hell they also might be able to summon onto the battlefield. Got a druid? Have him cast Moonbeam over your Cloud of Daggers for synergistic unfairness. Heard them all next to the guy with Sentinel to just make his day. The party synergy is extremely strong when you can control where the enemies go, even above and beyond potential of self combos.

Better explanation/justification?

HiveStriker

2019-10-21, 07:32 PM

@loki_ragnarok: honestly your idea is interesting in theory but seems far too hard to realize in many cases in practice, unless party has some grappling/pushing members that can help you.

In addition to that, Cleric/Sorcerer will boast a very respectable base AC, that can be pushed with Shield or Mirror Image.
And Storm Sorcerer is really benefitting from being close to an enemy.

So I don't think Distant is worth the choice unless OP wants to really use it for everything including weakening enemies from afar.

Otherwise? Provided you can reliably hit both times, a Lightning Lure followed by a Quickened Shocking Grasp would be enough to profit the few times you'd indeed have an enemy close enough to both you and a Cloud of Daggers. Ideally that means you could get it hit 2 times by Cloud of Daggers: first when closing it to you, then pushing it back into cloud with Shocking Grasp so it starts turn inside.
Or maybe casting a Chromatic Orb so it can take Storm Sorcerer additional damage too.

Also, consider that Cloud of Daggers require a hefty planning.
Compared to that, using a Lightning Lure just to add creatures to upcoming Quickened Slow or Hypnotic Pattern, or using it/Chromatic Orb/Shocking Grasp to put them inside a (Careful?) Sleet Storm / Stinking Cloud / Sickening Radiance / Spirit Guardians will probably deal more "damage" overall directly or indirectly.

In other words, both Sorcerer and Cleric have too many encounter-changing spells that require both concentration and "mid-high" level slots to make Cloud of Daggers worth building around.

loki_ragnarock

2019-10-21, 08:12 PM

Otherwise? Provided you can reliably hit both times, a Lightning Lure followed by a Quickened Shocking Grasp would be enough to profit the few times you'd indeed have an enemy close enough to both you and a Cloud of Daggers. Ideally that means you could get it hit 2 times by Cloud of Daggers: first when closing it to you, then pushing it back into cloud with Shocking Grasp so it starts turn inside.

Well, that wouldn't actually work; it's once per turn. Multiple times in the same turn wouldn't work. You might could quicken a Lightning Lure to pull them through, then ready an action to shocking grasp for their turn. You can do that in melee, even.

It's less about the Cloud of Daggers specifically, and more an illustration of what cheaply moving enemies around the battlefield enables. Being able to do it at range with relatively low investment just increases the instances for opportunity to make magic happen. Were it not for the free forced movement, I wouldn't suggest it; it wouldn't be worth it for most builds.

But here? It just enables one to more easily grasp - or even create - opportunities.

HiveStriker

2019-10-22, 03:24 AM

Well, that wouldn't actually work; it's once per turn. Multiple times in the same turn wouldn't work. You might could quicken a Lightning Lure to pull them through, then ready an action to shocking grasp for their turn. You can do that in melee, even.

It's less about the Cloud of Daggers specifically, and more an illustration of what cheaply moving enemies around the battlefield enables. Being able to do it at range with relatively low investment just increases the instances for opportunity to make magic happen. Were it not for the free forced movement, I wouldn't suggest it; it wouldn't be worth it for most builds.

But here? It just enables one to more easily grasp - or even create - opportunities.
Maybe read more attentively before answering? :)

Ideally that means you could get it hit 2 times by Cloud of Daggers: first when closing it to you, then pushing it back into cloud with Shocking Grasp so it starts turn inside.
I know perfectly how it works thanks.^

Being able to do it at range with relatively low investment just increases the instances for opportunity to make magic happen. Were it not for the free forced movement, I wouldn't suggest it; it wouldn't be worth it for most builds.
I'm just saying Distant is simply not worth imo because player has a good enough armor to allow himself to stay close enough to frontlines to directly use cantrips (medium + shield is a very respectable 19, and Shield is always an option in need). If really striking from a distance to push is a thing, Chromatic Orb is a cheap way with a much better range to do that, and it triggers all Storm Sorcerer benefits (including the free movement).

Distant should imo be taken as a core metamagic for the battle in its globality (always plan to strike early, from afar, to deny any chance to react for enemies), not just as a "sometimes useful" thing. Let's recall OP will be stuck with his choice because multiclassing and no access to level 10, and that his pool of sorcery slots will be very small for a very long time.
So it's much better economy-wise to pick metamagic that give a real direct benefit on any spell:
- Subtle = no counterspell, ability to cast while grappled etc.
- Careful = ability to land friendly-fire spells without friendly fire,
- Extend = pre-buff allies with some nice spells before a long rest (exclusive to Divine Soul or such a multiclass).
- Quicken = free your action to do something basic because you don't want to use a 2nd/3rd level slot on spells like Misty Step for that or you want to unleash extra oompgh by combining cantrip and spell.

So, to me, Distant would be a great asset if idea was that player is in an ranged party and controls how the fight is played by disabling group of enemies from similar range to longbow friends by using Distant mass disablers (confer above mentioned spels), leading to 1 or maybe 2 SP consumed only for the entire fight while providing a big boost in action economy (depriving archers of ways to attack during several turns, immobilizing melee enemies until they get downed by rain of arrows, you see the idea).

Fryy

2019-10-22, 10:56 PM

HiveStriker

2019-10-23, 03:37 AM

These are really interesting ideas and good reasoning. Thank you both.

I'm now more intrigued with Distant spell and less intrigued with Twin spell.

Any idea how Distant Spell would affect the Thunderclap cantrip and Dragon's Breath?
Thunderclap range = "Self (5 foot radius)"
Dragon's Breath range = "Touch"
Hey, my (our) pleasure.

I'm AFB but IIRC...
- Distant can't affect people that have "self" target.
- You can probably Distant cast Dragon's Breath to buff a pal 30 feet away, but I'm not sure I'd see the use-case here tbh. ^^

However, from personal taste/opinion/experience, spells that could more or less benefit from Distant...
- Battlefield environment spell: Fog Cloud, Silence and Sleet Storm can benefit slightly from it since it makes a more comfortable range to disable (for a round or two at least, after all they can move) a group of archers/casters. Other Sorcerer spells like Pyrotechnics or Stinking Cloud would profit.
- Direct damage spells: Shatter will be your bread and butter for AOE damage for some time: going from 60 feet to 120 feet makes it much easier to target enemies while they are still cluttered or without leaving a cover. If you still want the classic Fireball, doubling range means you can in a similar way try and weaken archers for your own archers pals to finish them off.
- Disabling spells like Slow, Hypnotic Pattern and even more Hold Person (60 feet is sometimes not very far) and Blindness (30 is actually close).
And of course Healing Words, Thunder Step, Sanctuary, Aid.
Besides that, having the option to unleash some Ice Storm / Insect Plague from 600 feet away means you can occasionally manage some nasty harrassment without being detected.

The thing is, do you really need the distance?
Those kind of tactics are great for a Sorcerer that stays in the back (BACK) lines in usual fights (like, minimum distance from first enemy = 80 feet, "safe enough" 130-140), or want to design tag-team fight openers with another powerful ranged attacker (Eldricht Spear Warlock, Martials with Sharpshooter) to soften the enemies before rest of the team engages then simply use cantrips and the occasional damage spell.

From the few things we know about you and your party, you'll probably stay no more than 60 feet away from your melee pals in most occasions, and possibly in fact go into melee.
After all, even Shocking Grasp with Distant is only 30 feet away: not far enough to avoid enemies closing in if they want to, especially if you wear heavy armor (because you won't put much in STR, will you? Because if you do so, you just have to learn Shadow Blade and Booming Blade, + pick Mobile feat: you'll be very dangerous and very hard to get).
Lighting lure would only be that far away to.
And Dragon's Breath range is 15 feet.
In other words, from what I get about how you want to play, I don't see you staying more than 20 / 25 away from a given enemy at any given time (except surprise round).

That's why I think it's not a good fit for you, or at least it's the "lest" fit. :)
With that said, it's your character, and your taste. So my suggestion would be: think about what kind of spell/tactic/action you want to use the most often (don't forget about resource consumption ^^). Think about the kind of spells you really want to have fun with, or you want to use to contribute to party (in or out fights).
Knowing those two should allow you to guess accurately enough your average ideal distance from frontline. From there, you'll easily evaluate whether Distant is good for you or not. ^^

loki_ragnarock

2019-10-23, 07:32 PM

Maybe read more attentively before answering? :)

I know perfectly how it works thanks.^
I'll try to, but I'll make no promises; sometimes things get hazy after several months of 4 hours of sleep a day. Apologies in the meantime.

I'm just saying Distant is simply not worth imo because player has a good enough armor to allow himself to stay close enough to frontlines to directly use cantrips (medium + shield is a very respectable 19, and Shield is always an option in need). If really striking from a distance to push is a thing, Chromatic Orb is a cheap way with a much better range to do that, and it triggers all Storm Sorcerer benefits (including the free movement).
One could cast chromatic orb, but doing so precludes using it for set up on your own turn.
Using distant on a cantrip allows for a lot more flexibility in a turn, as you can easily follow it up or preface it with a quickened leveled spell. It also allows more flexibility over the course of the day, as every casting of chromatic orb is one less casting of shield or the like.
Likewise, using distant on a cantrip actually cheaper than using chromatic orb; a 1st level spell does roughly match a sorcery point, but a sorcerer can net a lot more sorcery points by burning spell slots than they can spell slots by burning sorcery points. For efficiency, distant wins simply because when using chromatic orb regularly you have to start upcasting... as soon as you use level 2 slots, that's the equivalent of using a distant cantrip twice, in addition to eliminating an option to use your leveled spells for other things.
More flexible and more efficient is a pretty sweet combo.
Further, you can use if with Lightning Lure to pull people where you'd like to be; it enables more than just pushing, but the full array of position management options. Chromatic orb can't do that, making distant more flexible still.

What distant spell allows this particular build to do is play billiards and cheat by moving some balls out/into the way. It's all about maximizing your opportunity to create opportunities.

Distant should imo be taken as a core metamagic for the battle in its globality (always plan to strike early, from afar, to deny any chance to react for enemies), not just as a "sometimes useful" thing. Let's recall OP will be stuck with his choice because multiclassing and no access to level 10, and that his pool of sorcery slots will be very small for a very long time.
I'd agree with this analysis in general, however, the utility for moving hostiles around the battlefield is pretty enormous. With judicious use, you can effectively get the benefits of careful spell... but better, as a person who isn't hit never has to (auto) save for half.

Any idea how Distant Spell would affect the Thunderclap cantrip and Dragon's Breath?
Thunderclap range = "Self (5 foot radius)"
Dragon's Breath range = "Touch"
Won't effect Thunderclap. Also, it's a bad, bad cantrip. Anything that targets constitution is best embraced with a deep familiarity with failure. Worth it when the reward is more significant, but not for Thunderclap.

Distant on Dragon's Breath is... well, it'll let you throw it on someone else more easily. If the pushing effect carried over... that'd be great, but I don't think it would, as your ally would be technically be the one dealing the damage with their action. While there is some use there, it's going to be more niche; you'll probably be better off casting it on yourself, as you should be able to throw people around with it, and very few people in your melee based party will want to sacrifice their actions for a small cone of damage very often. It's also very much a melee focused spell; the range of the action is short enough to be right on them, anyway.

HiveStriker

2019-10-24, 07:01 AM

I'll try to, but I'll make no promises; sometimes things get hazy after several months of 4 hours of sleep a day. Apologies in the meantime.

oh, sorry. You actually took it seriously. My bad, this was a useless snarky comment. :smallwink:

Using distant on a cantrip allows for a lot more flexibility in a turn, as you can easily follow it up or preface it with a quickened leveled spell. It also allows more flexibility over the course of the day, as every casting of chromatic orb is one less casting of shield or the like.
Likewise, using distant on a cantrip actually cheaper than using chromatic orb; a 1st level spell does roughly match a sorcery point, but a sorcerer can net a lot more sorcery points by burning spell slots than they can spell slots by burning sorcery points. For efficiency, distant wins simply because when using chromatic orb regularly you have to start upcasting... as soon as you use level 2 slots, that's the equivalent of using a distant cantrip twice, in addition to eliminating an option to use your leveled spells for other things.
More flexible and more efficient is a pretty sweet combo.
Further, you can use if with Lightning Lure to pull people where you'd like to be; it enables more than just pushing, but the full array of position management options. Chromatic orb can't do that, making distant more flexible still.

What distant spell allows this particular build to do is play billiards and cheat by moving some balls out/into the way. It's all about maximizing your opportunity to create opportunities.

I'm sorry but this does not change things.
As I said, I agree with the core potential of push/pull effects, because I USE IT ALL THE TIME. for frigging sake. But you completely put aside...
- The actual resources OP would have for the most of his real-life playtime.
- The fact that overall Distant does NOT change, as far as your tactic goes, the mindset in which OP would need to approach fights: 15 or 30 feet is overall the same: you're in close range of enemies, which is something you do only if you consider yourself real resilient or you have real dependable friends.
- The fact that on top of the rest, those tactics would be usable at a high level whereas other metamagic bring value more easily and as soon as you get them.
For him, your advice is simply far from the best because he just have many other better things to do with his resources than put everything on an expensive, one-pony trick that would not even be easy to make happen...
Because you still need to position yourself in the correct "alignment", yet you don't have great mobility unless you spend spell resources or feats on that on top of the rest. So Distant just help these tactics going from "extremely difficult to pull regularly" to "difficult to pull regularly".

Although he didn't say anything (yet) about leveling progression, I guess it will be something like...
Sorcerer 1 (saves) -> Tempest Cleric 1 (equipment, spelle versatility) -> Sorcerer 3 (Metamagic) -> Tempest 2 (CD with Sorcerer's Shatter) -> Sorcerer 5 (so you get level 3 spells at level 7, which is late already but still acceptable) -> Tempest 3, or maybe straight up to 6, or put up Sorcerer 6 somewhere in middle?

So from char level 4 to 6, Sorcerer will only have 3 SP. While he'll have Subtle already to use either outside encounters (confer above post for examples). Let's say for the sake of putting everything on your side, party starts a fresh day, and plan on doing only fighting.
At level 5, when other people have level 3 spells, OP will only have a few level 2 spells from Sorc and level 1 from Cleric. While having 4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level. Op will have 3 metamagic points.
With Distant, either you accept that you made a build around an idea that can be used 3 times a day (yay), or you start consuming spells to replenish. Consuming 3rd level spell is the best since you don't have necessarily spells that upscale well (although Bless for entire party may require upcast).

But that also means you cannot upcast Hold Person (potentially paralyzing 2 creatures, meaning far better control and damage than just a push with damage, as long as your pals come soon after in initiative), or Chromatic Orb (5d8 with maximized damage is actually outweighing native 3rd level single-target damage spells), or Dragon's Breath (1d6 extra damage on a cone spell usable each round for a minute does make a difference in semi-attrition fights), or Sleep (still useful at that level to insta-disable an isolated target).
And, anyways, you don't have the level 6 Cleric bonus yet, so your tactic is simply not yet doable.

For OP to finally start using your tactic, he'll need Cleric 6. Unless he mains WIS (which is imo nerfing unless he goes for Spirit Guardians as main -but then why Tempest/Storm?), he means he can start exploiting your suggestions at char level 11-12.
At that level, he will have any amount of spells among Lightning Bolt, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, Earth Tremor, Erupting Earth, Counterspell, Fear.
Slow and Spirit Guardians are friendly. They are the only ones.

Why spend a point on Distant every round to try and push one/two enemies (with chance to fail because AC tend to go up quicker than WIS saves) when you could instead grab Careful to land a decisive Fear/Hypnotic Pattern without harming friends that aggroed monsters?
Fear forces movement away for all speed so not only is it easier to herd enemies in a direction, it also does much more defensively for your friends (of course, your melee pals would hate you XD).
Hypnotic Pattern is a potentially devastating "just do nothing until we come hurt you" spell.
Do you really think you could use such spells as easily and efficiencly with Distant? Do you really project into the amount of anticipation from you and friends and frankly a bit of luck on enemy behaviour to, just with ONE Distant cantrip, be able just after to land a Quickened AOE with exactly "as many enemies as possible inside, no friendlies inside" (because yeah, no, enemies won't quietly stay immobile from round to round, and probably neither your friends)?
I'm sorry, that precise idea is just ludicrous. :)

Even at lower levels, a simple Earth Tremor that has no bad effect on save can be very helpful for martial friends (not only do you deal damage, you also spares them attempts at Shoving so they can use every attack on dealing damage)

There is also the fact that Subtle is kinda mandatory for a support caster (no need to explain, right? I hope so), especially one that can learn Dispel Magic and Counterspell (same).
And Quicken while an expensive metamagic does benefit more or less any kind of spell in any kind of situation so with 6 SP and much higher caster level than known spells it's manageable.

Or the fact that OP would access spells like Mage Armor, Aid that could be used as upcast "slot-free" buffs with Extend whenever party can spare a preparation day.

That's why Distant is simply not worth at all for the things you're saying. While it could be if really OP wanted to play a far-range caster (but he doesn't give that impression ^^).
IF he really wanted some cheap and regular way to push/pull enemies, it's simple: pick 2 levels (or three) while you're at it of (whatever Patron suits you), Tome (extra cantrips) or Chain (invisible familiar to cast Shocking Grasp/Cure Wounds through) and pick Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar. DONE, and leagues better than Distant Lightning Lure: pick those levels instead of Cleric (4/)5/6: you enjoy at least 20 feet of push and 10 feet of pull, distributable, on every cast, from 150 feet, with extra chance of doing something when fire-focusing (since several attacks).

Your idea would be nice on a gish that basically pushed Tempest Cleric just to get the "push on lightning", "2 times per rest max damage" and Spirit Guardians, then just 3-4 levels on Sorcerer with minimum CHA just to get a few defensive spells (Shield, Mirror Image) and Shocking Grasp, so he can try and keep as many enemies as possible inside Spirit Guardians.
Which is actually much easier to do by being a Nature Cleric with Spell Sniper feat and enough levels of Draconic Sorcerer to Quicken it. Or mixing it up with a Prodigy feat or a level of Rogue to Grapple people and let them get hurt while Dodging (or possibly still getting Sorcerer for Subtle spellcasting).

loki_ragnarock

2019-10-24, 08:51 PM

oh, sorry. You actually took it seriously. My bad, this was a useless snarky comment. :smallwink:
No worries; I hoped you were going for a lighter tone, but I definitely needed the callout. Generally excellent advice regardless of snark. Please understand I also aim for a more jocular, irreverent tone.

I'm sorry but this does not change things.
As I said, I agree with the core potential of push/pull effects, because I USE IT ALL THE TIME. for frigging sake. But you completely put aside...
- The actual resources OP would have for the most of his real-life playtime.

I assumed OP was starting at 12, given the nature of the query, but that's fair enough.

- The fact that overall Distant does NOT change, as far as your tactic goes, the mindset in which OP would need to approach fights: 15 or 30 feet is overall the same: you're in close range of enemies, which is something you do only if you consider yourself real resilient or you have real dependable friends.

I'd disagree with you there; moving from range touch to the range of 30ft increases your area of control by exactly as many feet. Controlling the immediate squares around you is cool, but optionally controlling *any* square in 30ft of you is significantly cooler. That scale is significant in tactical scenarios.
Besides, as a Tempest Cleric the OP wouldn't be feeble; the default theme for most low level lightning spells, the Tempest, and the Storm is to be right in the thick of things, and being able to move from close to midrange is a fairly significant mental shift.

- The fact that on top of the rest, those tactics would be usable at a high level whereas other metamagic bring value more easily and as soon as you get them.
Struth, it is so. Again, I was running from the perspective of the initial query; level 12 as a back row non-melee.
But it's not as if you don't get utility from distant until level 12; there are a few cleric spells that have a range of touch that can benefit as a clutch move, for example: Guidance, Resistance, Cure Wounds, Protection From Evil, etc. Again, taking something that requires exacting proximity and allowing you to apply it where you need it, expanding your zone of control.
It's only later you get to use it to enable DM confounding trickery, which has the added benefit of their never seeing it coming until it's far, far too late.

For him, your advice is simply far from the best because he just have many other better things to do with his resources than put everything on an expensive, one-pony trick that would not even be easy to make happen...
Because you still need to position yourself in the correct "alignment", yet you don't have great mobility unless you spend spell resources or feats on that on top of the rest. So Distant just help these tactics going from "extremely difficult to pull regularly" to "difficult to pull regularly".

Oh, but the satisfaction when you do!
Further, I'd put forward that this is a "one trick pony" that can enable a lot of tricks. It's also a one trick pony that is exceptionally difficult to mitigate for a DM; it isn't something easily shut down with a stat block, for example, outside of switching to a huge creature exclusive campaign. Every time the DM moves a piece on the board, that's an opportunity. They'll lower their guard eventually, and then you strike like - wait for it - lightning. Meanwhile, you have all of your normal tricks and stratagems in play.

Although he didn't say anything (yet) about leveling progression, I guess it will be something like...
Sorcerer 1 (saves) -> Tempest Cleric 1 (equipment, spelle versatility) -> Sorcerer 3 (Metamagic) -> Tempest 2 (CD with Sorcerer's Shatter) -> Sorcerer 5 (so you get level 3 spells at level 7, which is late already but still acceptable) -> Tempest 3, or maybe straight up to 6, or put up Sorcerer 6 somewhere in middle?

So from char level 4 to 6, Sorcerer will only have 3 SP. While he'll have Subtle already to use either outside encounters (confer above post for examples). Let's say for the sake of putting everything on your side, party starts a fresh day, and plan on doing only fighting.
At level 5, when other people have level 3 spells, OP will only have a few level 2 spells from Sorc and level 1 from Cleric. While having 4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level. Op will have 3 metamagic points.
With Distant, either you accept that you made a build around an idea that can be used 3 times a day (yay), or you start consuming spells to replenish. Consuming 3rd level spell is the best since you don't have necessarily spells that upscale well (although Bless for entire party may require upcast).
I'd go Sorcerer 3, Tempest 6, Sorcerer X.
However, you're right; a pool of 3 sorcery points is probably what the OP would have for the majority of their time playing, should they be playing from 1. But since they can sack spell slots for sorcery points, they've still got the flexibility to do what they'd like. I wouldn't call that a bad thing; I'd call it having solid options. The lower pool of spell points can even be considered advantageous as the spell slots continue advancing; you're only a bonus action away from replenishing them in a pinch.

Buuuuuuuuut… I think you might be overselling the utility of subtle at low levels for a character casting Thunder type spells. Sure, Subtle is generic top 3 for sorcerer metamagic, but for the guy casting Shatter? Yes, it's generically great once your facing enemies that consistently have counterspell, but before then it's either something you keep in your back pocket for the only time charm person is actually useful, or faking a possession, or... well, of course there are uses. But the problem of a small sorcery pool also proves an impediment for someone expecting to use subtle with any regularity... and if they don't use it with regularity, it falls into the sort of circumstantial at best line that Distant was being accused of. In that respect, and the following which I'll just snip, there is parity between Distant and Subtle; they both have an opportunity cost when used, and they both make their best use when the circumstance warrants it. Neither should really be spammed willy-nilly, both used mostly when the situation warrants; judiciously... but one of them you can spam to fairly good effect, and the other you can't.

I'd also point out that if the enemy can cast counterspell, they sure can't after you (distant) shocking grasp them. Which means that you can simulate some of the major late game utility of Subtle from early on. Not bad. And if they're using counterspell on your shocking grasp? I'd still call that a win.

For OP to finally start using your tactic, he'll need Cleric 6. Unless he mains WIS (which is imo nerfing unless he goes for Spirit Guardians as main -but then why Tempest/Storm?), he means he can start exploiting your suggestions at char level 11-12.
At that level, he will have any amount of spells among Lightning Bolt, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, Earth Tremor, Erupting Earth, Counterspell, Fear.
Slow and Spirit Guardians are friendly. They are the only ones.
Which is where the beauty of a Distant Lightning Lure comes in. You have an ally in the way? Tell them not resist, they fail their save, and suddenly they aren't in the way anymore. It only does damage if they wind up adjacent to you, allowing you to move them where you need them; out of the way. Follow up with a quickened spell of your choice, and watch the fireworks.
Is it more costly in spell points than Careful Spell? Yes, but it also gives you more general utility when you can exploit it to do the same as Careful spell anyway. When you're only going to get the two metamagic options, one that can effectively simulate the other - even with greater cost - is going to provide more general utility.
So parity with Subtle and simulating Careful, I'd say there's still a case to be made.

That's why Distant is simply not worth at all for the things you're saying. While it could be if really OP wanted to play a far-range caster (but he doesn't give that impression ^^).
Well... OP did mention back line, non melee, hence the initial leap into the thought. Also, the vigorous and extremely slow defense.

IF he really wanted some cheap and regular way to push/pull enemies, it's simple: pick 2 levels (or three) while you're at it of (whatever Patron suits you), Tome (extra cantrips) or Chain (invisible familiar to cast Shocking Grasp/Cure Wounds through) and pick Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar. DONE, and leagues better than Distant Lightning Lure: pick those levels instead of Cleric (4/)5/6: you enjoy at least 20 feet of push and 10 feet of pull, distributable, on every cast, from 150 feet, with extra chance of doing something when fire-focusing (since several attacks).

Well... agreed. Warlock dip comes with so many boons that it's hard not to recommend it for any Sorcerer.

But what they can't do is cast... aw, crap. They can. They both have optional celestial origins.

But what they can't do is maximize lightning bolt. That's got to count for something. But the OP isn't looking for Warlock, their looking for Tempest. Gotta work with what your given. Sure, it'll take a few more levels before you're knocking people into and out of Sickening Radiance... but you still get to pull those kinds of tricks if you wish, letting you emulate that aspect of being a Sorcerer/Warlock. It plays about the same; Quickened Sickening Radiance, Push into it with an action, let their turn start with half their move speed, and smile. That they both get to do it doesn't detract from this particular build getting to do it as well. It doesn't get there as fast, but it still satisfying when you get to do it.

Your idea would be nice on a gish that basically pushed Tempest Cleric just to get the "push on lightning", "2 times per rest max damage" and Spirit Guardians, then just 3-4 levels on Sorcerer with minimum CHA just to get a few defensive spells (Shield, Mirror Image) and Shocking Grasp, so he can try and keep as many enemies as possible inside Spirit Guardians.
That would be a fairly typical load out, yes. That's all still stuff the OP can do... they can just also tap people into position pretty easily if they pick up Distant. But if they want to do stuff from the back lines like they stated, this is the ability that maximizes that aspect's utility. Basically, it gives the option to be something other than what the build is typically pigeon holed into; flexibility. You can keep people close and be pretty darned effective. You can also keep people away and be pretty darned effective.
Expanding the area of influence lets you do what's optimal in the moment, and that's the greatest gift of all.

Which is actually much easier to do by being a Nature Cleric with Spell Sniper feat and enough levels of Draconic Sorcerer to Quicken it. Or mixing it up with a Prodigy feat or a level of Rogue to Grapple people and let them get hurt while Dodging (or possibly still getting Sorcerer for Subtle spellcasting).
Again, those are cool builds... but a little outside the realm of the request?

Sigh. This is fun but I need to get my daily 4 hours of sleep.