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Drache64
2019-10-20, 05:16 PM
I have a paladin in my group (5e Retribution Paladin).

Is there a list of specific actions that would change his alignment?

I started him off as a kid, and when offered hush money from a cheating husband, instead of refusing the money, he attempted to snatch the gold piece out of the man's hand an run away with it, no big ramification there. When confronted with a moral decision to watch a warehouse workers crates, he chose to smash the crates and see what was inside. When confronted with the choice to tell the truth, he chose to tell a lie of omission (not telling the full truth but not lying). After these three strikes I rules that he was Chaotic Good for the rest of the day or until he completed some lawful good actions, but I was hazy on if I was being too harsh on him.

Is there anything written across any platform (3.5/4e/pathfinder/5e,etc) that I could use as a gold standard?

legomaster00156
2019-10-20, 07:47 PM
Alignment is what a character is generally like. Everyone has impulses and desires that fall outside of their normal behavior. If a character generally acts within the confines of the law (intentionally, not just out of convenience), and a character is generally a morally upright individual, they are probably Lawful Good. If a character is generally moral but doesn't care for the law's input, then they are probably Neutral Good. If they generally act outside of the law but are moral individuals, then they are probably Chaotic Good.

Red Fel
2019-10-20, 08:01 PM
I have a paladin in my group (5e Retribution Paladin).

Is there a list of specific actions that would change his alignment?

I started him off as a kid, and when offered hush money from a cheating husband, instead of refusing the money, he attempted to snatch the gold piece out of the man's hand an run away with it, no big ramification there. When confronted with a moral decision to watch a warehouse workers crates, he chose to smash the crates and see what was inside. When confronted with the choice to tell the truth, he chose to tell a lie of omission (not telling the full truth but not lying). After these three strikes I rules that he was Chaotic Good for the rest of the day or until he completed some lawful good actions, but I was hazy on if I was being too harsh on him.

Is there anything written across any platform (3.5/4e/pathfinder/5e,etc) that I could use as a gold standard?

Here's the thing. Well, three things. To wit:

1. Alignment shouldn't change based on a single action. With very few exceptions, such as genocide or rape, an individual action isn't going to impact someone's alignment. That's because, broadly speaking, alignment is about mindset - that is, the kind of person a character is. Now, if a person performs repeated actions which would not comport with their alignment, that might be grounds to change the alignment. But that's not because alignment is a checklist; it's because the character is the type of person who would perform those actions.

2. Alignment change isn't temporary or sudden. Typically speaking, alignment doesn't change "for a day" or "overnight." Alignment shifts are gradual, reflecting a change over time in personality and mindset. And as such, they don't usually bounce back. Alignment shifting isn't a punishment for not complying with alignment expectations, a "time out" that expires after a duration - they're a semi-permanent alteration in how you see the world.

3. Alignment is deeply subjective. What you, as GM, see as alignment appropriate, and what a player may see as alignment appropriate, may differ. It is crucial that you discuss these matters, OOC. If you see a player whose character is repeatedly acting out of line with alignment, your first step should be to talk to the player, out-of-character. There may be a difference in expectation here. Be willing to compromise, within reason - some of what you described above may seem non-LG to you, but reasonably LG to a player, and I don't think anything here really jumps out to me as black-and-white unacceptable. (Certainly some shady spots.) That said, there are limits - again, committing genocide would be entirely non-LG by any standard, player's thoughts on the subject notwithstanding.

Bottom line: There is not a gold standard. It's a sliding scale, not an objective checklist. What matters are communication, reasonable expectations, and reasonable consequences for actions.

Think it over, talk to the player. You'll get there.

Pauly
2019-10-20, 09:48 PM
Firstly there’s a lot of angst about Paladins because they’re the only class that gets punished for badwrongfun by DMs on a regular basis (I know technically this can happen to other classes, but almost every time you here about a player getting punished by the DM for playing their class wrong - it’s a paladin)

Your first priority as a GM in this type of situation shouldn’t be to ask “Can I make the paladin fall?” It should be “Is there a way to avoid having the paladin fall?”. Of the 3 events you listed
- event 1: It’s a childhood event. Possibly the remorse from that action is one of the things that drove the character to become a paladin. It should have zero bearing on the now adult character, since he or she has had years worth of good deeds performed in the due course of their becoming a paladin.
- event 2 : was there a “lawful” or a “good” or a good reason to open the crates. If the paladin suspects that they were being used to transport “unlawful” or “evil” chicanery then they have a proper in character motive for smashing them. Idle curiosity is a minor transgression. It would only be that if the paladin smashed them to loot and steal the contents that there is any real alignment problems.
- event 3 : why did the paladin omit telling the full truth? Unless it is for purely selfish reasons there is no reason to hit them over the head with it. There are plenty of situations where lies of omission would not conflict with a paladin’s duty.

As for policing it, instead of having the paladin fall, even only temporarily, I find the best way is for a senior member of the Paladin’s order to show up and take interest in the character is more palatable to the players. An in game conversation about the paladin’s motives for his/her actions and a setting of expectations from a senior member of the order will help get you and the player on the same page.

False God
2019-10-20, 10:04 PM
I have a paladin in my group (5e Retribution Paladin).
This part seems to indicate this paladin is of a player of yours, but below it sounds like it's your character. Could you clarify?


Is there a list of specific actions that would change his alignment?
Long answer: See Red Fel's post.

Short answer: No.


I started him off as a kid, and when offered hush money from a cheating husband, instead of refusing the money, he attempted to snatch the gold piece out of the man's hand an run away with it, no big ramification there.
I'm going to assume that this is backstory. And that the "kid" is not a paladin at the time of these actions. Many kids with poor childhoods grew up to be good people IRL. So we probably shouldn't be holding their alignment when they were 8 against then when they're 28.


When confronted with a moral decision to watch a warehouse workers crates, he chose to smash the crates and see what was inside.
Assuming your game isn't Legend of Zelda, I'm going to assume he broke a deal with a warehouse worker, and also probably broke the law by destroying personal property. I'm also assuming he did this as an adult, or at least after he became a paladin.


When confronted with the choice to tell the truth, he chose to tell a lie of omission (not telling the full truth but not lying).
I'm assuming again that this is in regards to the smashing crates event above. If it's in regards to something else, then the good/lawful portion of lying depends entirely on the subject he was lying about.


After these three strikes I rules that he was Chaotic Good for the rest of the day or until he completed some lawful good actions, but I was hazy on if I was being too harsh on him.
What difference does that make? 5e paladins aren't required to be LG.


Is there anything written across any platform (3.5/4e/pathfinder/5e,etc) that I could use as a gold standard?
No.

However 5e paladins have "oaths", their subclasses, which provide very general guidelines on general behaviors someone with that oath should demonstrate. 5e is not the days of 3.5 where a paladin needs to remain lawful good in order to retain their powers. In fact many alignments can fit under each of the oaths, even evil ones (see: Oath of the Crown, because if that's not a soft LE Oath I don't know what is). A paladin who one day strictly adheres to their code and the next day uses them "more like guidelines" is perfectly within their rights to do so, and may even break them if the situation calls for it. They are not at risk of losing their powers even if their alignment permanently shifts a little from doing so.

The Oath of Vengeance even says ..."their own purity is not as important as delivering justice."

Drache64
2019-10-20, 11:50 PM
This part seems to indicate this paladin is of a player of yours, but below it sounds like it's your character. Could you clarify?

What difference does that make? 5e paladins aren't required to be LG.

However 5e paladins have "oaths", their subclasses, which provide very general guidelines on general behaviors someone with that oath should demonstrate. 5e is not the days of 3.5 where a paladin needs to remain lawful good in order to retain their powers. In fact many alignments can fit under each of the oaths, even evil ones (see: Oath of the Crown, because if that's not a soft LE Oath I don't know what is). A paladin who one day strictly adheres to their code and the next day uses them "more like guidelines" is perfectly within their rights to do so, and may even break them if the situation calls for it. They are not at risk of losing their powers even if their alignment permanently shifts a little from doing so.

The Oath of Vengeance even says ..."their own purity is not as important as delivering justice."

Great advice from everyone, I'm learning a lot.

Few clarifications, they are still kids. I'm having them play out their backstory. (I'm basically running Fable)

And I didn't know 5e paladins were alignment agnostic, now that I know this whole problem disappears!

Zhorn
2019-10-21, 03:15 AM
When it comes to paladins, I'm much more in favour of a paladin acting in accordance with their oath more than worrying about their alignment. My experience with other editions is pretty thread-bare for paladins, but 5e has the oaths listed in the subclasses which I think make for a good guideline on how the paladin is expected to behave.

The definitions of alignment will vary person-to-person, but oaths are a fair bit more clear-cut on what is in keeping with a PC's paladinyness.

Kardwill
2019-10-21, 04:13 AM
The questions that spring to mind are :
- Did he have good reasons to do what he did? Could he rationalise his actions? If the answer is yes, then there are no real problems here, just some story/drama fuel.
- If he's simply breaking promises for personal gain, does the player want to play a paladin? Is he setting up a redemption/transformation story ("I was a common thug when I was young, until [X] happened and sent me on my quest")? What does he want out of the character? A discussion with the player about what playing a paladin really means to him, how he sees that working out (after all, he's the one playing the character, so his ideas about it come first) might be a good idea, so that you are on the same page.

BWR
2019-10-21, 04:28 AM
One thing I've found very useful for any sort of character that depends on external entities for their powers (clerics and paladins, mostly, regardless of whether they get the powers from gods or philosophies or whatever), is to sit down with the players and write specific guidelines for the characters.
I have a rule of thumb of 3-5 major strictures and 5-10 minor/explanatory ones.

E.g. take a cleric or paladin of Mealiden Redarrow, a god of Mystara dedicated to serving his patron Ilsundal and protecting elves in general
Major strictures could be:
- protect elves, even at the cost of non-elves
- be vigilant, keep your skills honed, and keep information about threats and potential threats up to date
- remain loyal to Ilsundal and his cause

Minor strictures might be:
- the good of elven communities as a whole may run counter to good of the individual
- long-term good for the elves may override short-term good
- trust in the wisdom of Ilsundal and His representatives, even if this runs counter to your instincts.
- be clever and cunning in combat - ambushes and traps are fine, but avoid unnecessary cruelty
- be joyous and daring, in honor of Mealiden
- while elves are most important, value your non-elven allies and potential friends. Some elven sacrifice for non-elven peoples may aid elves as a whole.

King of Nowhere
2019-10-21, 06:34 AM
As a general rule, what others said is good. I specificalli recommend to discuss with the player the specific beliefs and code of conduct.

But this doesn't seem a difference in opinion. This guy should be a paladin, but te actions described are those of a petty thief. The problem is not with alignment, but about claiming to be a paladin while engaging in petty theft.
Unless he had some good reason for it?

legomaster00156
2019-10-21, 08:21 AM
One more thing. When PC's are children (or being played by children), I never give the character an alignment. They are treated as True Neutral for alignment detection, and while it hasn't come up, for effects that rely on alignment, I would treat them as the most favorable. This is because children are too immature to have developed a coherent moral and ethical philosophy. They can't be Chaotic Evil even if they're thieving scoundrels, because they don't yet fully understand the consequences of their actions.

Pleh
2019-10-21, 08:37 AM
2. Alignment change isn't temporary or sudden. Typically speaking, alignment doesn't change "for a day" or "overnight." Alignment shifts are gradual, reflecting a change over time in personality and mindset. And as such, they don't usually bounce back. Alignment shifting isn't a punishment for not complying with alignment expectations, a "time out" that expires after a duration - they're a semi-permanent alteration in how you see the world.

Not disagreeing, just adding a single caveat.

There is room in RPGs for Crisis of Faith moments (for lack of a better term), as depicted for Luke Skywalker in RotJ where he had to choose whether or not to destroy Vader (likewise for Vader moments later whether or not to save Luke).

If a player creates an alignment driven character, it makes sense to offer them these moments of crisis and moral ambiguity as they kind of validate their choice to include it as a fundamental aspect of their character. This also means it's best to not ambush them with it or try to trap them with a "gotcha" crisis. It certainly shouldn't come up in every mundane fight (e.g. why did the paladin kill the surrendered goblins?), it deserves a build up over the course of the campaign.

Sigreid
2019-10-21, 09:14 AM
IMO a paladin should strive to do the right thing, to the best of their understanding. On the other hand, there's no reason a paladin can't have a past where they were bit such a great guy. Trying to make up for the sins of a mis-spent youth is a great motivation for a good guy hero type.

Zhorn
2019-10-21, 09:56 AM
IMO a paladin should strive to do the right thing, to the best of their understanding.

Or... Oath of Conquest. Less 'Love thy neighbour' and more "Taste my divine wrath".
Or (again)... Oathbreaker. No code of conduct, all "Might is right"
Paladins needn't be either Good, nor Lawful.

Beleriphon
2019-10-21, 12:27 PM
IMO a paladin should strive to do the right thing, to the best of their understanding. On the other hand, there's no reason a paladin can't have a past where they were bit such a great guy. Trying to make up for the sins of a mis-spent youth is a great motivation for a good guy hero type.

Also, don't forget 5E Oaths are more here's some broad guidelines to follow. Usual 5 broad categories. Most are relatively obvious about what alignment are fairly obvious about which they work with best. The Oath of Devotion is the classic paladin, probably works best with LG. Oath of Vengeance is probably working best with LN. Oath of Ancients is more CG than Lawful. Crown is LN or LE. Conquest is a LE through and through Oatbreaker is the Anti-Paladin/Blackguard CE.

Red Fel
2019-10-21, 01:20 PM
Not disagreeing, just adding a single caveat.

There is room in RPGs for Crisis of Faith moments (for lack of a better term), as depicted for Luke Skywalker in RotJ where he had to choose whether or not to destroy Vader (likewise for Vader moments later whether or not to save Luke).

If a player creates an alignment driven character, it makes sense to offer them these moments of crisis and moral ambiguity as they kind of validate their choice to include it as a fundamental aspect of their character. This also means it's best to not ambush them with it or try to trap them with a "gotcha" crisis. It certainly shouldn't come up in every mundane fight (e.g. why did the paladin kill the surrendered goblins?), it deserves a build up over the course of the campaign.

Oh, absolutely agree.

But what you're describing doesn't just come up in that moment. As you describe, it's built up over a campaign, it's an extended character arc. It's a pot that's been filled over time, coming to a boil at that precise moment. As such, it's not a single decision or moment that changes alignment, but rather a series of decisions or moments that are coming to a head in this moment.

It's awesome when you get to do that in a campaign. I love it. But if it comes out of nowhere - if the character who has been totally grounded and unquestioning in his beliefs suddenly goes into utter personal chaos - then it's un-earned. It makes no sense. Having it come up in just that moment doesn't work. It has to be the result of multiple decisions, a chain of revelations. That's what makes it work.

To use the Luke example, if he had all the skills he had developed by Jedi back in Empire, would he have spared Vader? No. He would have killed him. He wanted to. He had no reason to question or to spare him. It's what we saw at the cave - Luke went in ready to fight, and kill. He didn't understand the gravity of his actions or the reality of his relationship with Vader. It was only later revelations - that Vader was once his father, that he had to be stronger emotionally to protect his friends, and so forth - that put him in a position to question, and to spare Vader. Everyone else was putting him on a direct course to murder the bad guy with his space wizard sword, but he said no, and threw it aside like a cheap trinket. That's something that took a character arc to achieve. He didn't suddenly decide not to kill Vader, out of nowhere, just to be spiteful to the wrinkly evil space wizard boss. He did it because he had a series of moments behind him that allowed him to question his motivations and turn down a different path.

Quizatzhaderac
2019-10-25, 03:53 PM
I'm basically running FableI've had some thoughts specifically on this is you're interested in gamifying alignment.

Each character gets four numbers: goodness, evilness, lawfulness, and chaotic-ness. Why four numbers instead of two? Because some actions are stupid: Law-ful stupid, chaotic-stupid, stupid-good, and stupid-evil.

A classical dilemma will result in either a good point or an evil point (or law/chaos). A stupid dilemma will result in one kind of point or no point at all. Torturing animals for no reason is stupid-evil, which is not the opposite of good; so an evil point for doing so, versus no points for not. Keeping your word when nobody cares/not is a law point or no point.

Ten (or whatever) more good points than evil makes a character good. And same for other alignments

Every month (or whatever regular period works) reduce all four numbers by 1 this reduction should be enough that a person can lose total points, and thus remain true neutral , even without exactly balancing actions. If you're doing this over many iterations, reduce by some fraction of the number; this causes past actions to be less important than recent ones.

For implications: The gods can tell, and magic can tell. People who get to know you can sort of tell. Rumors spread quickly.

Lawful people will be given special responsibility, chaotic people will be followed around in shops. Lawful people get a bonus to persuade checks, chaotic people gen a penalty to bluff and persuasion.

Good people will be the target of goodness more often and the gods make grant good people more luck. The fiends goodness allows might lead to more friends, and therefore more connections and opportunities.