PDA

View Full Version : [Variant] Weapon and Critical System



Holocron Coder
2007-10-17, 12:36 PM
I was standing at the bus stop yesterday, waiting to go to class, when I started analyzing the weapon system in D&D 3.5. Everyone knows that there are a few select weapons that are worth getting, while the rest are worthless. Much of this is based on the base weapon damage (greatsword vs greataxe) or the critical rate (rapier vs longsword). In an attempt to make the weapons more abstract (and thus, more fluff-able), I came up with this system.

{table=head]Weapon Damage Type|Small|Medium|Large|Critical Multiplier|Special

Bludgeoning|
1d4|
1d6|
1d8|
x2|On critical, DC Damage or stunned

Slashing|
2d3|
2d4|
2d6|
x2|

Piercing|
2d2|
2d3|
2d4|
x3|[/table]

{table=head]Weapon Size(Relative to Character)|Dex Bonus per[br]Critical Range Increment

Small|
2

Medium*|
3

Large|
4[/table]
*Bows and other ranged weapons are counted as Small for the purposes of criticals.

[b]Effect on feats, etc
Improved Critical, Keen, etc: Add 1 step to the critical threat range or 1 step to the critical multiplier.

Martial Weapon Proficiency: Allows a user to use any non-simple weapon. For weapons formerly exotic, the special property may not be utilized without the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Allows the wielder to use the "special property" of the exotic weapon. Example: the bonus supplied by a whip to trip attempts.

Notes:
To work best with this variant, the Armor As Damage Reduction, Class Defense Bonus, and Dexterity To Hit variants are suggested. The reasoning for using a Dexterity bonus to determine the critical range is basically common sense. The more accurate someone is with a weapon, the more likely they will hit something critical on a creature. Additionally, this lends to the Dexterity To Hit variant. The reason Strength is originally used is because Armor is treated as AC. In order for a person to "hit" and thus "damage" a person, he would have to hit hard enough to be felt through the armor. If armor is changed to damage reduction, which is very similar and more intuitive, then hitting an opponent is based on accuracy and Dexterity.

Now, to look at some examples of basic weapons.

{table=head]Name|Damage|Critical Multiplier|10 Dex|14 Dex|16 Dex|18 Dex|Avg Damage (14 Dex)

Shortsword|
2d3|
x2|
20|
19-20|
19-20|
18-20|
4.8

Longsword|
2d4|
x2|
20|
20|
19-20|
19-20|
5.5

Greatsword|
2d6|
x2|
20|
20|
20|
19-20|
7.7

Sap|
1d4|
x2, DC dmg or stunned|
20|
19-20|
19-20|
18-20|
3, 10% chance of stun check

Club|
1d6|
x2, DC dmg or stunned|
20|
20|
19-20|
19-20|
3.85, 5% chance of stun check

Greatclub|
1d8|
x2, DC dmg or stunned|
20|
20|
20|
19-20|
4.95, 5% chance of stun check

Longbow|
2d3|
x3|
20|
19-20|
19-20|
18-20|
5.2[/table]

So, what do you people think? :smallbiggrin: Comments, suggestions? Obviously, combination weapons need to be worked out (Morningstar, etc), as well as any differences between Simple / Martial / Exotic. Although, I'm tempted to make Exotic weapons be useable as a martial weapon, but be unable to use the "special ability" that many exotics have (whip -> trip, etc)

Jasdoif
2007-10-17, 12:58 PM
Why is bludgeoning the one with the x3 crit multiplier? Very few bludgeoning weapons have better then x2. Piercing is the one that usually gets the big crit multipliers.

Also, what's with the base damage ranges? Slashing and piercing average half a point more damage, while bludgeoning gets 50% more out of a crit?

And by "Small/Medium/Large", I'm guessing you mean the same thing as "Light/One-handed/Two-handed"?

Holocron Coder
2007-10-17, 01:03 PM
Why is bludgeoning the one with the x3 crit multiplier? Very few bludgeoning weapons have better then x2. Piercing is the one that usually gets the big crit multipliers.

Modifying that was an attempt to make bludgeoning items useful in some regard. Slashing weapons outshine all other weapons in the current DnD (ignoring special abilities / extended range). I placed the damage for slashing at "more consistent" and bludgeoning at "more bursting".


Also, what's with the base damage ranges? Slashing and piercing average half a point more damage, while bludgeoning gets 50% more out of a crit?

That half a point average is part of the reason many take greatswords over greataxes. I'm not sure where you got the "50% more out of a crit".


And by "Small/Medium/Large", I'm guessing you mean the same thing as "Light/One-handed/Two-handed"?

Yup.

Draz74
2007-10-17, 01:21 PM
Interesting idea. But ...

- Armor is NOT the only reason that Strength modifies attack rolls. Take a heavy weapon like a warhammer or greatsword, or maybe even a longsword, and a character's Strength will matter much more than Dexterity, in terms of the character's ability to move the weapon around quickly and have any sort of precision with it. Even against unarmored foes, I think Strength-based attack rolls make more sense. (Of course this is all void when dealing with light weapons, and needing a Feat before you can use Dex with your light weapons is very silly.)

- Have you some ideas in mind to get past the two biggest problems with Armor-as-DR? Namely:
-- Power Attack supremacy: "Oh, you're wearing plate that gives you DR 8/- instead of AC +8? OK. So I'll Power Attack with my halberd for -9 instead of -1, and I'll do an extra 16 damage. That should more than make up for your DR 8/-."
-- "Hey look, I'm a guy with a dagger and 12 strength. I'm trying to kill this guy in full plate. He's not even fighting back or dodging, he's just standing there. But it's taking me many hours to kill him, because no matter how well I aim, I can only deal damage to him if I get a crit and roll well for my damage."

- No real difference between slashing and piercing? Boring.

- No x3 crits for bows, spears, etc.? Seems counter-intuitive to me.

- Crits x3 for quarterstaffs, clubs, and other light bludgeoning weapons? Weird.

- Hey look, I'm a high-level swashbuckler with a Keen dagger and 28 Dexterity. I can get a critical if I roll a 4 on my attack roll. :smalltongue:

- Yes, you're right, you need to figure out how proficiencies and simple/martial/exotic work in this system. Also, what about other common special abilities of weapons, such as Reach???

Holocron Coder
2007-10-17, 01:35 PM
Interesting idea. But ...

- Armor is NOT the only reason that Strength modifies attack rolls. Take a heavy weapon like a warhammer or greatsword, or maybe even a longsword, and a character's Strength will matter much more than Dexterity, in terms of the character's ability to move the weapon around quickly and have any sort of precision with it. Even against unarmored foes, I think Strength-based attack rolls make more sense. (Of course this is all void when dealing with light weapons, and needing a Feat before you can use Dex with your light weapons is very silly.)

How do you figure that the strength is more important in hitting the target? Granted, you have to be strong enough to lift and use the relatively-heavy weapon, but the strongest person in the world isn't going to hit a target if he can't aim.



- Have you some ideas in mind to get past the two biggest problems with Armor-as-DR? Namely:
-- Power Attack supremacy: "Oh, you're wearing plate that gives you DR 8/- instead of AC +8? OK. So I'll Power Attack with my halberd for -9 instead of -1, and I'll do an extra 16 damage. That should more than make up for your DR 8/-."
-- "Hey look, I'm a guy with a dagger and 12 strength. I'm trying to kill this guy in full plate. He's not even fighting back or dodging, he's just standing there. But it's taking me many hours to kill him, because no matter how well I aim, I can only deal damage to him if I get a crit and roll well for my damage."


Those would be some of the suggestions I would need. In fact, I'm pretty sure that full plate only gives DR 4/-...



- No real difference between slashing and piercing? Boring.

- No x3 crits for bows, spears, etc.? Seems counter-intuitive to me.

- Crits x3 for quarterstaffs, clubs, and other light bludgeoning weapons? Weird.


Going to change this a bit... Do you have a suggestion for making bludgeoning more worthwhile?



- Hey look, I'm a high-level swashbuckler with a Keen dagger and 28 Dexterity. I can get a critical if I roll a 4 on my attack roll. :smalltongue:


That was something I was going to add in as well. Keen, Improved Critical, and the like modify the crit rate by 1 step, instead of doubling it (which never made sense to me).



- Yes, you're right, you need to figure out how proficiencies and simple/martial/exotic work in this system. Also, what about other common special abilities of weapons, such as Reach???

Well, you still have "guisarme" and "longspear". They simply have longer reach instead of the normal 5ft reach. I'm pretty sure they also aren't useable at 5ft without a feat. Thus, that would be a fluff deal and a damage/crit system doesn't take it into account.

Jasdoif
2007-10-17, 01:47 PM
Modifying that was an attempt to make bludgeoning items useful in some regard. Slashing weapons outshine all other weapons in the current DnD (ignoring special abilities / extended range). I placed the damage for slashing at "more consistent" and bludgeoning at "more bursting".Poor piercing weapons...they just can't catch a break.


That half a point average is part of the reason many take greatswords over greataxes. I'm not sure where you got the "50% more out of a crit".That and the fact that 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 come out to the same average damage increase. If a greataxe was 19-20/x3, it would in fact come out ahead on average damage. Heck, if you have a Strength score of 16 or higher (and thus +4 on your damage rolls), a 20/x3 greataxe would outaverage a hypothetical 20/x2 greatsword.

Your proposed system will yield the same situations between bludgeoning and nonbludgeoning, since threat ranges are identical between weapons of the same light/one-handed/two-handed category.

Holocron Coder
2007-10-17, 01:58 PM
Made some changes to each weapon type. Added notes. Added average damage to the common weapon table, for comparison

Draz74
2007-10-17, 02:05 PM
How do you figure that the strength is more important in hitting the target? Granted, you have to be strong enough to lift and use the relatively-heavy weapon, but the strongest person in the world isn't going to hit a target if he can't aim.

Of course the true answer is that Strength and Dexterity are both obviously needed to at least a minimal extent. But for non-light weapons, strength seems to be more important to me. You have to lift the weapon and move it around -- and you have to do so relatively fast. Whereas a lot of the "aiming" skill seems, to me, to be more part of what your BAB represents.


Those would be some of the suggestions I would need. In fact, I'm pretty sure that full plate only gives DR 4/-...

Even crazier then (except at least the guy with a dagger and 10 Str doesn't need to roll well on a crit to deal damage).

For the first problem, most people use Class Defense Bonuses, so there is something keeping the Power Attacker from using his Power Attack so much. Very difficult to balance IMHO.
For the second, the most popular answer is to copy Iron Heroes and have variable DR on your armor: Plate Mail = DR 1d8/-.

Personally, I don't like Class Defense Bonuses (I see Hit Points representing your learned-over-time ability to defend yourself), and I don't like how much dice rolling is involved in the Iron Heroes system, so I don't use Armor As DR. I'm working on a damage threshold system where Armor still helps turn wounds into a less serious kind of wounds, though.


Going to change this a bit... Do you have a suggestion for making bludgeoning more worthwhile?

First, I think historically, heavy bludgeoning weapons and light ones were very different in this regard. Clubs and staffs can't punch through armor. Hammers and maces can.

But anyway, I think if anything, bludgeoning ones should be the weapons that do more base damage, and have less impressive crits.


That was something I was going to add in as well. Keen, Improved Critical, and the like modify the crit rate by 1 step, instead of doubling it (which never made sense to me).

Still, my point was supposed to be that characters with super-high Dex (more than 20) might be too powerful.


Well, you still have "guisarme" and "longspear". They simply have longer reach instead of the normal 5ft reach. I'm pretty sure they also aren't useable at 5ft without a feat. Thus, that would be a fluff deal and a damage/crit system doesn't take it into account.

It's not a fluff difference. Not if you use the battle grid at all. Especially if you use the normal AoO rules. Reach is a huge advantage, in spite of not being useable at 5 ft. If you make Glaive and Greatsword exactly the same, except the Glaive has reach, don't expect to see many Greatswords in your game.

Holocron Coder
2007-10-17, 02:11 PM
It's not a fluff difference. Not if you use the battle grid at all. Especially if you use the normal AoO rules. Reach is a huge advantage, in spite of not being useable at 5 ft. If you make Glaive and Greatsword exactly the same, except the Glaive has reach, don't expect to see many Greatswords in your game.

I'm sorry, I worded that incorrectly. Essentially, it's not covered as anything different from the normal in this system. Reach weapons can't fight adjacent, causing a problem, of sorts. Of course, any system can be broken with cheese (yum!), and I don't have a solution for that.