[Unlikely Situations] Life After Failed Will save on Artifact Disjunction

[Saintheart]

So in one of my games, it was pointed out that if you hideously fail a Will save when trying to cast Mage's Disjunction on an artifact, you lose all spellcasting abilities permanently, and not even Miracle or Wish can bring it back. Leaving aside that blowing up the Sphere of Annihiliation usually results in a god showing up, I got to wondering: which casting classes or builds can still do anything useful after something like this happens?

Leaving aside most of your versatility in spells is gone, if your spellcasting abilities vanish, that also means all your prestige classes dependent on a spellcasting ability likewise disappear, so it's a pretty brutal blow. Just wondering what's left over and which (previously) casting classes would still be able to do something semi-non-useless after that happened to them?

[Elves]

Rebuild and become an erudite?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well gishes and theurges that blend non-casting systems with casting are hurt but probably not perma-nuked by this particular event. Soulcaster still has his soulmelds, anima mage stil has his vestiges, cerebremancer still has powers, gishes still have decent arms, armor and a decent attack bonus, and so on.

If you were a dedicated arcanist or divine caster (it's on several domains), you're screwed unless you can still activate spell completion and spell trigger items. You're (presumably) still a font of knowledge and a spellcraft expert so you're useful as a consultant to lower-level characters and those of a different class. You've got a book that's worth a king's ransom in your (extradimensional) pocket that you no longer have use for that you can cash out or at least rent out so you can get some gear you can make use of in your new, frankly weaker form.

Realistically though, I can't imagine a dedicated arcanist's player not retiring the character ASAP after such an event. It may as well be as good as perma-death for them. Divine casters can -maybe- hang in there on other, non-casting class features like the druid's wildshape or the cleric's turn undead (divine feats) but arcanists basically have no such features to lean on. When your whole character is built around slinging spells, suddenly losing that ability really is as good as loosing your character.

[Mechalich]

The Witch - Disjunction is available via Wisdom Patron - would retain her Hexes. That's probably the best ability retained by a straight up arcane caster in this situation. That would essentially mean having access to a small suite of erratic (but in some cases very powerful) spell-like abilities. I bet you could make a Hex-based witch that remained competitive even without spellcasting.

[Mr Adventurer]

Spellthief could steal someone else's Disjunction. They'd lose their own spellcasting, which would suck. They'd probably have to lose the ability to cast spells they steal, as well. But they'd still be able to actually steal spells, spell-like abilities etc.

[javcs]

Well gishes and theurges that blend non-casting systems with casting are hurt but probably not perma-nuked by this particular event. Soulcaster still has his soulmelds, anima mage stil has his vestiges, cerebremancer still has powers, gishes still have decent arms, armor and a decent attack bonus, and so on.

If you were a dedicated arcanist or divine caster (it's on several domains), you're screwed unless you can still activate spell completion and spell trigger items. You're (presumably) still a font of knowledge and a spellcraft expert so you're useful as a consultant to lower-level characters and those of a different class. You've got a book that's worth a king's ransom in your (extradimensional) pocket that you no longer have use for that you can cash out or at least rent out so you can get some gear you can make use of in your new, frankly weaker form.

Realistically though, I can't imagine a dedicated arcanist's player not retiring the character ASAP after such an event. It may as well be as good as perma-death for them. Divine casters can -maybe- hang in there on other, non-casting class features like the druid's wildshape or the cleric's turn undead (divine feats) but arcanists basically have no such features to lean on. When your whole character is built around slinging spells, suddenly losing that ability really is as good as loosing your character.

Permadeath is actually probably preferable. The party is more likely to get to keep a permadead character's stuff, whereas a character who is "merely" stripped of all spellcasting ability is more likely to be expected by the DM to keep most of their stuff.

Though, honestly, if your character was a dedicated caster, and is now completely stripped of their spellcasting ability? There's room for a pretty solid in character reason to commit suicide, IMO. Especially if the character has the Spellcraft or Knowledge skill to know that it's irreversible.

Although ... the "these abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic" suggests that you might be able to find someone capable of reversing your loss ... but they would have to be capable of using alternative means or otherwise not counting as using mortal magic to restore you. Ie, deities, probably also top level Celestials and Infernals.
But it would definitely not be cheap or easy. This is definitely a "they own you now and forever" and they require you to work for them whenever they tell you to, type of deal. Plus you'd need to find and convince them to make a deal to help you in the first place.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Permadeath is actually probably preferable. The party is more likely to get to keep a permadead character's stuff, whereas a character who is "merely" stripped of all spellcasting ability is more likely to be expected by the DM to keep most of their stuff.

At that level, anything that's likely to leave you in a state where resurrection is impossible isn't likely to leave a corpse that your stuff can be recovered from. Still, it's something of a possiblity.


Though, honestly, if your character was a dedicated caster, and is now completely stripped of their spellcasting ability? There's room for a pretty solid in character reason to commit suicide, IMO. Especially if the character has the Spellcraft or Knowledge skill to know that it's irreversible.

If he has that level of knowledge, he probably also knows that death isn't the end. There's a whole existence on the outer planes where you're just as bereft of magic and you slowly forget who you were over the gods only know how long before merging with the plane itself (at least longer than the limit on true-res.)


Although ... the "these abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic" suggests that you might be able to find someone capable of reversing your loss ... but they would have to be capable of using alternative means or otherwise not counting as using mortal magic to restore you. Ie, deities, probably also top level Celestials and Infernals.
But it would definitely not be cheap or easy. This is definitely a "they own you now and forever" and they require you to work for them whenever they tell you to, type of deal. Plus you'd need to find and convince them to make a deal to help you in the first place.

"Mortal magic" in context like this almost certainly means "as opposed to deific magic." A god of magic might be able to restore your casting ability if A) They have a reason to do so that outweighs the fact you just destroyed an artifact, B) they're more powerful than the god associated with that artifact and can't be blocked from doing so, and C) you can even get in front of them to make your case without your magic in the first place. Tall order but not impossible I suppose.

Although, personally, I might let them get their power back from a ritual of renaming, per tome of magic. When a truenamer speaks, they're asking reality itself to make a change. Changing your name -might- justify changing the associated loss of your casting ability. And, tbqh, I get a tickle out of the idea of the mightiest of the mighty having to ask the lowest of the pseudo-casters to do something that would've been completely beyond him even in the height of his power. :smallamused:

[Khedrac]

Druids become a huge amount weaker - but with their wildshape they are still pretty potent compared to most others (and will now go MoMF). That said, how does a druid disjoin an artifact in the first place?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Druids become a huge amount weaker - but with their wildshape they are still pretty potent compared to most others (and will now go MoMF). That said, how does a druid disjoin an artifact in the first place?

Easiest way in 3e is by having a level in contemplative and having chosen one of the domains it appears in. Arcane hierophant also fairly leaps to mind.

[Quertus]

That said, how does a druid disjoin an artifact in the first place?

Cross-class UMD, and a scroll?

[Psyren]

The easy answer is to retrain/rebuild as something else.

The slightly less easy answer - since the gods can restore you, set out to do that. Yes, it'll be a difficult quest without your spellcasting, but if your goal is to impress a deity, that ups your chances (should you survive, anyway.)

The third option is continue as you are, secure in the knowledge that regardless of the sacrifice, you saved the day. The viability of this for continued adventuring is going to vary by class, but as someone suggested prior, Druid is one that can do this and still come out the other end as a T3/T4 class. Most other full casters plummet to T5 or so.

Fourth option is to retire the character - in-universe, they go off to do #1, #2 or #3, and whether or not they succeed, you quietly shelve them in favor of something new.

[Aquillion]

I would say that if the player wants to continue after that, they're generally going to have to work something out with the DM. It definitely has narrative potential, but they're going to have to either retrain or use houserule / homebrew mechanics to make their character playable again.

Something like eg. gaining another power source, or just finding a new path in life and retraining. Maybe they're desperate to get their power back and cut a deal with some dubious power and become a Warlock (or get re-empowered as a Wizard, with some plot hooks lingering from whatever deals they cut.) Maybe they're granted power by a deity and become a Cleric or Favored Soul. Maybe they learn to use devices to substitute for their lost magic power and become an Artificer.

There's a lot of narratively interesting retraining routes available for a character like that, but you'd probably want to talk it over with the DM first. (I imagine most DMs would be lenient, since it offers a lot of interesting plot hooks and just having your character become unusable forever due to one bad roll hardly makes for a good story if you end it there.)

[noob]

Avoid getting here by asking commoners to do the disjunction(while they are under the effect of a umd boosting effect in order to read the scroll successfully)
If you somehow did not have scrolls or mundane character to get in the role to disjunct(or opponents to mind control for the purpose) then obviously you are in a worrying situation.

[Vaern]

Wizard and sorcerers still have a familiar. I'd suggest that wizards could still make use of their item creation feats, as PHB2 has a couple of ways that one character can use his own item creation feats in conjunction with another character's spells and/or experience in order to craft an item, but every item creation feat has a caster level prerequisite. If they don't have spellcasting abilities, I wouldn't consider them to have a caster level at all. They can not benefit from a feat for which they no longer qualify. Really, the only bright side for them in this situation is that they no longer have to worry about ASF.

Clerics can still turn undead and their domain powers (even if they can't cast their domain spells any more). If they have a decent selection of divine feats, they can still do some interesting stuff with their daily uses of turn undead. For example, I once made a cleric who was totally jacked up on Charisma and healed exclusively through the use of the Sacred Healing feat. He still had spells, of course; he just didn't heal with them. Having spells taken out of the equation completely may be an interesting twist.
Although, I'd argue arguable that a cleric might not lose their spellcasting ability from this at all. They pray for their spells, and their ability to cast spells is the result of their deity answering their prayers and giving them spellpower. Mortal magic can't restore the spellcasting abilities lost to Disjunction, but a cleric's divine spellcasting is literally an act of divine intervention through a mortal medium.

Bards can't cast the spell from their own spell list, but if they were to cast it from a scroll or learn it through Sublime Chord they would still have their Bardic Music abilities.

Bards and sorcerers will both also retain their high charisma, which quickly becomes the most important ability score in the game for any character with no spellcasting abilities and little competence wielding a proper weapon. This also applies to the small number of clerics that have decided to try a gimmicky build based on Turn Undead (as previously mentioned).

[Mr Adventurer]

Do you still have a caster level? Do you still have a class spell list? Can you use spell completion or trigger items?

[Mike Miller]

It sounds like a great NPC that is just the broken shell of what once was. S/he can just mumble incoherent arcane ramblings about the cosmic powers that once were.

[Vaern]

Liches who lose their spellcasting are still liches, retaining their touch attack, fear aura, paralyzing touch, and ability to reform after death via their phylactery. It could be interesting to see a lich who has lost its spellcasting and then became a skilled fighter or something afterward.

A lich who has lost its spellcasting ability may still be able to become a demilich. Creating soul gems explicitly requires that the lich be a 21st level wizard, sorcerer, or cleric, but does not require that they have a caster level or any spells from one of those classes to do so.

Demiliches get a number of spell-like abilities that they use as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level. Its use of "their spellcaster level" rather than "their caster level" may be interpreted as "their level in their spellcaster class," rather than "the level at which you cast spells." A wizard who has lost his spellcasting abilities might have no caster level (it's up for debate), but he still has levels of a spellcaster class which may function as the equivalent of an actual caster level for these spell-like abilities in a roundabout semantics kind of way.
Otherwise, some of these spell-like abilities will become useless while others may still technically have an effect at CL 0. Whether or not the demilich would be allowed to use these abilities at CL 0 is debatable, but some of them have no variables based on caster level except range. Some of them also have a minimum effect which could still be powerful at CL 0 (such as create greater undead, which can still create shadows at any caster level below 15).

[Jack_Simth]

A Beguiler is still a skill monkey, although they've got some hoops to go through to get Disjunction in the first place.

A Factotum is annoyed, but still UMD's everything (including more Disjunction scrolls) and has most class features.

[Mr Adventurer]

A Factotum may not be affected, since Magical Dilettante is (Sp).