What makes a half caster a half caster?

[Belzique]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.

What would the base paladin class have to give up to become a full caster, just Fighting Style and Extra Attack? I feel like that's enough of a sacrifice for the full spell casting progression to 9-10th level (for 5th level and lower spells) but I'm not sure about the 6-9th level spells/spell slots (they'd migrate over to the cleric spell list for those levels I guess). Any help is appreciated.

[Yunru]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.

What would the base paladin class have to give up to become a full caster, just Fighting Style and Extra Attack? I feel like that's enough of a sacrifice for the full spell casting progression to 9-10th level (for 5th level and lower spells) but I'm not sure about the 6-9th level spells/spell slots (they'd migrate over to the cleric spell list for those levels I guess). Any help is appreciated.
Extra Attack and the Improved Divine Smite.

It'd be very strong with any of the existing spell lists though, so I'd recommend creating your own.

[EggKookoo]

A Life Domain cleric using Preserve Life doesn't scratch that itch?

[diplomancer]

My gut feeling is that the Paladin auras are too powerful to fit in a full-caster chassis. I would advice basically the 6-14 sorcadin, which gets the auras, 7th level spells, and 9th level slots.

[CNagy]

Paladin would probably need significant revision; if he likes the Lay on Hands ability, has he looked at the Celestial Warlock? The problem with the auras is that their initial range is low, which is fine for a front line martial character, but less awesome for the party for someone who has to hang back like a full-caster, but multiclassing Paladin/Warlock would work nicely if the campaign runs long enough. (I'm assuming, for balance purposes, that we're not talking about turning the Paladin into a full-caster with the durability of a front-line martial character.)

[Willie the Duck]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.

Out of curiosity, what does this player imagine their character doing during combat, other than LoH when people need hp and keeping up the aura of 'really close ally-saving?' One of the thing people coming from other editions have noticed about clerics is how, as they are no longer healbots, they have turned into localized ongoing area effect damage machines with Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians and how unusual it seems but 'what else are they going to be doing?' This character seems to be in the same boat... but without those two spells. So, what will they be doing during a given combat (at, let's say, levels 1, 5, 10, and 15)?

[LudicSavant]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.

What would the base paladin class have to give up to become a full caster, just Fighting Style and Extra Attack? I feel like that's enough of a sacrifice for the full spell casting progression to 9-10th level (for 5th level and lower spells) but I'm not sure about the 6-9th level spells/spell slots (they'd migrate over to the cleric spell list for those levels I guess). Any help is appreciated.

Their aura would be the biggest thing to give up.

[Damon_Tor]

They would have to give up their d10 hitdice to d8s and either their heavy armor proficiency or their extra attack.

There are no full casters with d10 hit dice. There are full casters with heavy armor and there are full casters with extra attack, but none with both.

[HiveStriker]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.

What would the base paladin class have to give up to become a full caster, just Fighting Style and Extra Attack? I feel like that's enough of a sacrifice for the full spell casting progression to 9-10th level (for 5th level and lower spells) but I'm not sure about the 6-9th level spells/spell slots (they'd migrate over to the cleric spell list for those levels I guess). Any help is appreciated.
Hi!

Extra Attack and the Improved Divine Smite.

It'd be very strong with any of the existing spell lists though, so I'd recommend creating your own.


A Life Domain cleric using Preserve Life doesn't scratch that itch?
Honestly those two leads seem the only ones sane to me.

A fullcaster with auras, I'm afraid, would be simply too strong, especially if you gave him the Cleric spell list.
Imagine an AC 21 (heavy armor + shield + Defense) WITH +5 to saves roaming around with upscaled Spirit Guardians.
Ok, admitedly, AC 21 is something some Cleric can already achieve from level 1: but they don't have the same hit die, nor the same resilience bonuses.
Ok, indeed, some Paladin's Oath get Spirit Guardians. But they get it at level 9, with a very few slots that they have also to keep for some nova damage.
But stacking +5 to everything on top of 4th level Spirit Guardians 3 times a day at level 8?
That, seems, not OP (we've seen far worse), but still powerful enough that you may scratch your head quite a few times because he trivialized an encounter alone.

I would recommend the following first.
- Present him some Cleric Domains, possibly even the latest UA that happens to get Circle of Power.
- Do the same as Lore Bard with a feat for armor proficiency.

Otherwise, create custom option.
1. Cleric based: make Auras a Channel Divinity that lasts 1mn, possibly as a bonus action to compensate the shorter time. Give "frightening at level 2", "+CHA" at level 6, "Improved range at level 18". Don't give any extra equipment proficiencies.
-> 1mn is enough to make them very relevant in important fight, the fact it recharges on short rest makes it spare enough that it must be used wisely, yet a feature you usually manage to keep for any big fight you can prepare.
If player was also interested in auras archetype, decide in your own wisdom whether it's manageable and when to provide it. :) You will probably need to tweak Cleric progression to stack a Domain feature "on top of a regular class feature".

2. Sorcerer: give "Frightened" aura at level 1 that covers only you.
At level 6 gives "+CHA" at level 6 (same),
Give special Metamagic option to push the range of both (I thought managing each separately but would be a pain to track) during 10mn, with scalar cost for every further 5 feet: 1, 2, 3, 4...
So pay 1 points for 5 feet range, 3 for 10 feet range, 6 for 15 feet range...
At level 14, simply make the permanent effect 10 feet radius, make the "expanded for cost" last 1 hour.
At level 18, simply make the permanent effect 30 feet radius.
While keeping the metamagic "expand radius for a time".
Meaning that at level 18, a Sorcerer could keep a very comfortable 45 feet radius for the cost of a 4th level slot. Before you're wondering what use that may be, consider things like...
- Large parties (leading a mob, having summoner).
- Simply avoiding the "cluster effect" that some nasty enemy casters like.
- Opening up stupid tactics like providing aura to an ally in a different room. XD
If your player was interested in archetype auras, simply tack them on those level 14 and 18 (or put a middle ground like for Cleric, like level 10 on top of extra metamagic then level 14).
--> The small number of spells a Sorcerer knows and the linear progression ensure a very low risk of imbalance.
--> The sorcery based use fits the Sorcerer thematics of "exactly right amount of power for the task".
--> Just having the perma +5 to all saves at all times is already a very strong benefit for a caster imo. :)

3. Custom class
Take Paladin, remove all Fighting related things, craft a spell list that would be kinda a mix between Cleric and Druid (avoiding the most powerful options like Spirit Guardians or Conjure Animals), capt the"spell known" at level 6 or 7 depending on spells you allow (avoid Simulacrum/Clone and the like) and/or customize spell slot progression with a slightly wider base (like ending with 8*1st level, 6*2nd level, 4*3rd level, 3*4th level, 3*5th level, 2*6th level.
Seems like too much an effort for the benefit to me though. ^^

[bid]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.
Bard could work as-is.
- full caster, not melee
- bardic inspiration works for saves, close enough to aura.

You could make a college to get closer to paladin:
- level 3 is lay on hands at half power (level/2*5),
- level 6 is potent spellcasting (smite/IDS-lite),
- level 14 is aura
Since it's full caster, paladin feature should appear later, something like 2, 4, 12 (vs 1, 2, 6 on paladin).


Life cleric, CD roughly does LoH. Converting disciple of life + blessed healer into LoH and making CD give a 1-min aura could work too. You can adjust the strength as you see the results.

[Cynthaer]

Bard could work as-is.
- full caster, not melee
- bardic inspiration works for saves, close enough to aura.

You could make a college to get closer to paladin:
- level 3 is lay on hands at half power (level/2*5),
- level 6 is potent spellcasting (smite/IDS-lite),
- level 14 is aura
Since it's full caster, paladin feature should appear later, something like 2, 4, 12 (vs 1, 2, 6 on paladin).


Life cleric, CD roughly does LoH. Converting disciple of life + blessed healer into LoH and making CD give a 1-min aura could work too. You can adjust the strength as you see the results.
This is the right idea, IMO.

The way 5e half casters are designed (paladin and ranger), spellcasting is just one feature of the class, with a list that supplements or augments the core of that class.

For paladins, that means being a heavily armored melee fighter that can heal and buff, and who has some spell slots that usually turn into extra damage on melee attacks, but can also turn into Command or Zone of Truth when you need it.

For full casters, the spell lists are the core of the class, and are the primary source of power and class features. As a result, I think it is going to be pretty difficult to start with a half caster and try to change the core class to turn it into a full caster in a balanced way.

If you start with a full caster instead, then you already have some built-in "slots" for custom features in the form of subclasses, and you have existing subclasses to compare so you can gauge the right power level.

So, here's my shot at a "casting paladin" implemented as a cleric subclass:

Actually-a-Paladin Domain

Domain Spells

[copy from Oath of Devotion or whatever you like]

Bonus Proficiency

Heavy armor proficiency.

Lay on Hands

Same as paladin, but pool might need to be like 3 * level due to the healing available from spells to avoid being ridiculous.

Channel Divinity: Radiance of the Dawn

[copied from Light Domain] Starting at 2nd level, dispel darkness and deal 2d10+level radiant damage in 30-ft radius, Con save for half.

Channel Divinity: Aura of Protection

Starting at 6th level, etc. Works like the paladin feature, but only for 1 minute.

Aura of Courage

Starting at 8th level, when you use Aura of Protection, you also get the effect of Aura of Courage.

Improved Auras

Starting at 17th level, your auras have a range of 30 ft.



To give it the proper paladin feel, I'd also change the casting stat from Wis to Cha; it doesn't affect the balance either way.

[sithlordnergal]

I feel that it would be easier to just give him the Cleric class, and instead of giving him a Cleric Domain give him the Paladin Auras. I feel like a Cleric that loses access to a Domain, and all the effects those Domains bring, more then make up for gaining Paladin Auras. I would give him the choice of a secondary Aura from one of the Paladin subclasses though.

[Sagitta]

I feel that it would be easier to just give him the Cleric class, and instead of giving him a Cleric Domain give him the Paladin Auras. I feel like a Cleric that loses access to a Domain, and all the effects those Domains bring, more then make up for gaining Paladin Auras.

That makes sense thematically: auras, like domains, are an expression of the character's devotion and spiritual nature. But I would go further, and grant most of the features of the sacred oath, with oath spells replacing domain spells. This would also entail using the paladin's channel divinity instead of the stronger clerical version, and losing the option to turn undead.

Breaking it down in more detail, all the divine domain features would be replaced with:
- Level 1: martial weapon & heavy armour proficiency.
- Level 2: sacred oath as paladin level 3.
- Level 6: aura of protection as paladin level 6.
- Level 8: variant aura as paladin oath level 7.
- (Skip the level 15 oath feature. Full casters are powerful enough by this point.)
- Level 17: larger aura as paladin level 18.
- Level 20: either keep the cleric's divine intervention, or gain the level 20 paladin oath ability.

[Yunru]

If the Auras are a sticking point, I have a Bard College (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585200-College-of-Invocation-Bard-Subclass) that might suffice.

[bid]

- Level 2: sacred oath as paladin level 3.
- Level 6: aura of protection as paladin level 6.
- Level 8: variant aura as paladin oath level 7.
So, a full caster with paladin features, but earlier?
Thanks for the laugh, but no.

[sithlordnergal]

That makes sense thematically: auras, like domains, are an expression of the character's devotion and spiritual nature. But I would go further, and grant most of the features of the sacred oath, with oath spells replacing domain spells. This would also entail using the paladin's channel divinity instead of the stronger clerical version, and losing the option to turn undead.

- (Skip the level 15 oath feature. Full casters are powerful enough by this point.)
- Level 20: either keep the cleric's divine intervention, or gain the level 20 paladin oath ability.

Personally, I'd keep the level 15 Aura and keep it scaled to the Paladin's stuff. So you start with your Aura at level 3, get the improved Aura at level 18. If you feel its too strong, weaken Divine Intervention so that there's always only a 50/50 chance of it ever working

[HiveStriker]

So, a full caster with paladin features, but earlier?
Thanks for the laugh, but no.
I'll have to agree.

I'm starting to wonder if the problem just lies with me: am I the only one that think that a fullcaster on which you'd just tack Auras "as is" (same effect, same level as Paladin) has a high chance of creating a power unbalance, significant enough to cause problems to DM?

[diplomancer]

I'll have to agree.

I'm starting to wonder if the problem just lies with me: am I the only one that think that a fullcaster on which you'd just tack Auras "as is" (same effect, same level as Paladin) has a high chance of creating a power unbalance, significant enough to cause problems to DM?

MAYBE (and I still feel it would be too strong), swap all the domain features except the spells for getting heavy armor and martial weapons at level 1, and the Aura of Protection (only) at level 6. Could perhaps keep potent cantrip, but I think what I suggested is a fair trade.

[Garresh]

It casts half as goodly as a full caster.

[diplomancer]

One other thing to consider: If you proc the aura on Wis (or let the cleric cast spells based on cha), you are giving it a considerable buff, since a Paladin has to decide whether to increase Str or Cha, while the Cleric is just going to raise Wis. I would leave the spells wis based and the aura cha based. You want to be like a Paladin, you are going to be MAD.

[Cynthaer]

I'll have to agree.

I'm starting to wonder if the problem just lies with me: am I the only one that think that a fullcaster on which you'd just tack Auras "as is" (same effect, same level as Paladin) has a high chance of creating a power unbalance, significant enough to cause problems to DM?

Nope, not just you.

The auras are a decent chunk of power all by themselves. Aura of Protection is similar in power to having a local, resourceless, concentrationless Bless active 100% of the time.

Really, a lot of paladin abilities are kind of like spells, but more narrowly tailored to the class. This makes sense on a half-caster, but it's redundant on a full caster.

That's why my version has the auras implemented as Channel Divinity. The whole point of CD is to be the place where you put specialized, spell-like effects on a Cleric, limiting their power by giving them their own resource.

[MrStabby]

I kind of ruled this out at first pass. Full spellcasting, aura and lay on hands seemed a bit much. Now I think it can be done.

Spellcasting has a lot of things that make it good or bad: raw quantity (full, half, third), quality of spells on the list, versatility/variety of the list, flexibility of the list (known vs prepared), interactions (heavy armour proficiency or con saves with limited range concentration effects). I think that this can be balance by squeezing the other factors.

An inspiring preacher with healing hands and a protective aura is thematically strong. D6 hit points, no armour proficiency, wisdom and cha saves, limited spells known and a spell list that doesn't pack any of the most powerful spells in the game could work. Without spirit guardians, banishment, wall of force, counterspell, forcecages or wish the character is probably pretty OK. With a cap on decent non concentration spells, lining up the needs of the class with its weaknesses can help stop it being too dominant.

[Safety Sword]

What makes a half caster a half caster?

Halflings.

*BOOM TISH*

[MeeposFire]

When your friend says "full caster" do they mean it as many here would mean it as specifically wanting a full level 1-9 spell level progression or do they possibly mean more that they are going to be casting full time rather than attacking with a weapon most of the time?

I would ask because making a paladin type class with 9th level spells single class would be a hard sell if we would want to keep most of its more important abilities but if all they wanted is to be primarily using spells that probably can be done. For instance we could try to replicate similar damage to weapon attacks using some additional bonuses using attack cantrips and rather than give higher level spell perhaps just give more ways to increase the number of lower level slots you have access to (sort of like how wizards and other class can recharge lower level slots and like how the new UA does except with more uses).

We could enlarge the spell list a bit and tinker with a few things but it could be made to work and be roughly balanced keeping the paladin features they would want but they would still be down to at most 5th level spells (but they would ahve more spell slots to use, more spells to choose from, and having effective cantrips that could give similar though probably not quite as good damage as weapon attacks would).

[Petrocorus]

Without trying to diminish any one's proposal, i believe the simplest and most balanced option would simply be to let him play a Life or Order Cleric.

[Arkhios]

IMHO, the distinction is rather simple.

A half caster is a class that has access to just as many spells as a full-caster would have at half their level. Because that's how they work.

A 20th level artificer/paladin/ranger has just as many spell slots and spell levels available to them as a 10th level cleric/druid/wizard has. The former classes' "class level to spell access" ratio is literally halved compared to the latter classes. Double that, and you've got yourself a full-caster.
The simplest way to add more spells is to decide which of the full-casters is the most similar to the half-caster in question and add their spell list from 6th through 9th levels on top of the half-caster spell list.
Alternatively, you could swap the spell lists entirely. Class features would still make a lot of difference.

However, the other half is basically just a "warrior". That includes a d10 Hit Die, Extra Attack, potential to deal extra damage with weapons multiple times per turn, and proficiencies with martial weapons, heavy armor, and/or shields, as well as Fighting Style, so basically, if you want to change a half-caster into a full-caster, you'll have to drop all of the above.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have a player who is interested in playing a paladin in my group because they like Lay on Hands and the auras. They are not interested in melee attacking however, and would prefer to be a full caster.

What would the base paladin class have to give up to become a full caster, just Fighting Style and Extra Attack? I feel like that's enough of a sacrifice for the full spell casting progression to 9-10th level (for 5th level and lower spells) but I'm not sure about the 6-9th level spells/spell slots (they'd migrate over to the cleric spell list for those levels I guess). Any help is appreciated. Two ways to approach this:
A. 1 Level Fighter
levels 2-20 Cleric.
I have a friend who plays a "paladin" just like this. (No auras, but Bless is kina neat)

This offers:
Fighting Style
All weapons
All Armor
Full Caster Progression.
Second Wind

B. Life Cleric
Heavy Armor
Full Cleric
Preserve Life Channel Divinity is pretty darned good vis a vis healing
Various spells boost/buff the party

[GreyBlack]

Math. Half casters calculate their effective spell casting level as once half of their level when multiclassing.

Therefore, they are a half caster.

[AHF]

This is the right idea, IMO.

The way 5e half casters are designed (paladin and ranger), spellcasting is just one feature of the class, with a list that supplements or augments the core of that class.

For paladins, that means being a heavily armored melee fighter that can heal and buff, and who has some spell slots that usually turn into extra damage on melee attacks, but can also turn into Command or Zone of Truth when you need it.

For full casters, the spell lists are the core of the class, and are the primary source of power and class features. As a result, I think it is going to be pretty difficult to start with a half caster and try to change the core class to turn it into a full caster in a balanced way.

If you start with a full caster instead, then you already have some built-in "slots" for custom features in the form of subclasses, and you have existing subclasses to compare so you can gauge the right power level.

So, here's my shot at a "casting paladin" implemented as a cleric subclass:

Actually-a-Paladin Domain

Domain Spells

[copy from Oath of Devotion or whatever you like]

Bonus Proficiency

Heavy armor proficiency.

Lay on Hands

Same as paladin, but pool might need to be like 3 * level due to the healing available from spells to avoid being ridiculous.

Channel Divinity: Radiance of the Dawn

[copied from Light Domain] Starting at 2nd level, dispel darkness and deal 2d10+level radiant damage in 30-ft radius, Con save for half.

Channel Divinity: Aura of Protection

Starting at 6th level, etc. Works like the paladin feature, but only for 1 minute.

Aura of Courage

Starting at 8th level, when you use Aura of Protection, you also get the effect of Aura of Courage.

Improved Auras

Starting at 17th level, your auras have a range of 30 ft.



To give it the proper paladin feel, I'd also change the casting stat from Wis to Cha; it doesn't affect the balance either way.

I like this approach a lot. By making the aura a domain feature with a 1 minute duration, that takes care of the single biggest problem in implementing this concept.