OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[InsamNonsoon]

Looking forward to what the IFCC are planning!

Also like Quarr in the new art style.

[Morquard]

My heart goes out to all these innocent rubies and diamonds that lay down their existance every day.

Also ominous foreshadowing of Sabines return and some nefarious plan. "Artifact", "appropriate vessel" ... are they trying to bring one of themselves up into the world?

[Robot Samurai]

Ooooooo! Here we go....

[Fyraltari]

Oh boy, these are some good-looking fiends. Well not good, you get what I mean.

[Quebbster]

The netherworld looks good in the new art style. Too bad they aren't staying around there. Guess it may have been too visually complex…
Anyway, nice to know that thread is not forgotten (though I didn't expect it to be). Looking forward to more speculation about IFCC than just "are they going to take V now? What about now?"
Oh, and looking forward to seeing Sabine in the new art style eventually.

[factotum]

So it would have helped the fiends if Hel had managed to get the world destroyed? Are they really trying to destroy it themselves, in that case?

[flat_footed]

Been waiting for them to make their next appearance!

[declinator]

It's been a while since we saw those three (plus their foil Qarr). I have to admit I forgot where they stand on the unmake this world question.

[Alaska Fan]

Good to know Sabine will be back. She almost certainly has her own agenda.

[Roland Itiative]

Wow, the comic updated while I was browing the site, how fortuitous :smalltongue: So, I guess next book will be all about the IFCC as the antagonist, and the final conflict with Team Evil will be further pushed back? I guess it makes sense, Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.

I have to wonder if Sabine's "time off" has something to do with her trying to find Nale's soul (it should probably have gone to one of the lower planes, right? He was pretty chummy with fiends, after all), or something.


So it would have helped the fiends if Hel had managed to get the world destroyed? Are they really trying to destroy it themselves, in that case?

I would imagine they're indifferent to the world being destroyed, but would really like Hel to lay waste to the Northern Pantheon.

[Angrith]

This comic sent shivers down my spine. Good work Giant!

[Zhorn]

OOoooooooo.... ominous...


*heh* sparkly boys :smallbiggrin:

[Larre Gannd]

I like the continued observance of Blackwing’s obsession with sparkly things.

[Rogan]

Mixing buisness with pleasure shuld be easy for a succubs, right?

[faustin]

If the IFCC is already moving piece I guess we are getting close to the endgame.

I admit to be excited about finally finding out Cedrik, and Nero' s plan, as well as their motivations. Yes, they claimed looking for "unnecessary conflict", but they are obviously after something more. Specially if, as Thor mentioned, outsiders have been forced to lose memories over and over after every world ending event.

[denthor]

I feel dirty. I know the IFCC are EVIL this just the first time I ever felt as much.

Until now they were the group I was most Intrigued by

[Soepvork]

And so the plot thickens...

Can someone remind me how many sides were involved in this conflict again?

[Peelee]

The new art makes the IFCC look a lot more menacing. I'm a huge fan of that effect.

Wow, the comic updated while I was browing the site, how fortuitous :smalltongue: So, I guess next book will be all about the IFCC as the antagonist, and the final conflict with Team Evil will be further pushed back? I guess it makes sense, Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.

The next book is the last, IIRC.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Blackwing is obviously talking about the rubies, but I can't shake the feeling that it could be also a very well played metaphor for the IFCC. It's very nice writing, there. I love it.

[FujinAkari]

Wow, the comic updated while I was browing the site, how fortuitous :smalltongue: So, I guess next book will be all about the IFCC as the antagonist, and the final conflict with Team Evil will be further pushed back? I guess it makes sense, Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.

The next book will be about both, seeing as it is the final one :P

[Forikroder]

So it would have helped the fiends if Hel had managed to get the world destroyed? Are they really trying to destroy it themselves, in that case?

maybe they know about the world inside and destroying the world wont do anything anymore, it would just peel back the shell on that one

[2D8HP]

I like the continued observance of Blackwing’s obsession with sparkly things.


Keeping eyes on the shinies!

[littlebum2002]

And so the plot thickens...

Can someone remind me how many sides were involved in this conflict again?

1. The Order
2. Xykon
3. Redcloak & TDO
4. The MitD
5. The Fiends
6. Hel
7. Thor & Loki & other gods
8. the gods who want to destroy the world
9. the snarl

If you want to count smaller players, you could go on for days

10. Tarquin
11. Ian
12. The Sapphire Guard
13. Nale's soul
14. The Order of the Scribble

etc

[CriticalFailure]

I wonder if there'll be a cutaway to Team Evil too.

[Listening Here]

I don’t know why but the thought of fiends / demons having vacation days just made me chuckle. And while this trio’s return is ominous I am actually looking forward to seeing Sabine again. I always like her as a villain and wasn’t sure with Nale being eliminated if she would make a reappearance and in what capacity. I am really looking forward to seeing what terrible plots they are cooking!

[KatsOfLoathing]

Lots of foreshadowing for developments to come here. Should fuel the speculation for well after more pages start appearing.

The only artifact (or artifact-adjacent thing) I can think of to exist in this comic is Xykon's phylactery, and I doubt that's what they're referring to.

Lots of ways to interpret "appropriate vessel". A new mortal for Sabine to attach herself to? Something the aforementioned artifact needs to function properly? Something else? Guess we'll find out.

The line that really made my eyebrows rise is "...get our followers' hands dirty" in that last panel. Followers, plural, and Qarr is already present so they're not just talking about him and Sabine. The IFCC are high-ranking infernals, so one could assume they'd have minions to do their dirty work, but we've never seen any thus far beyond those with names (and that Erinyes secretary from a gag panel). Makes me wonder what new characters aligned with the Forces Below we'll be seeing soon.

[Psyren]

I laughed out loud at "it's time to roll our sleeves up and get our followers' hands dirty" :smallbiggrin:

*runs off to check the expiration date on his IFCC thread*

[WindStruck]

Ooh, ominous.

I wonder if they plan on creating some other world-wide crisis that the order may be forced to deal with. Otherwise, things will probably be nearly as bad as if the world was undone!

[Aidan]

Huh

Wasn't expecting those guys to show up before books end.

Still at least we now know a bit more about there plan, even if the amount we know is still very little, it looks like their hand will be played soon enough.

I'm also looking forward to every character we see doing something even the slightest bit not normal, will earn everyone assuming that they're Sabine.

[Schroeswald]

I get on my phone to see the latest thread up, immediately click for the comic, and then (literally) jump for joy to see the IFCC and Qatar return, without me getting the chance to read it until a few minutes in.

[Mad Humanist]

Can someone remind me how many sides were involved in this conflict again?

We all know it's nine. Not sure if we ever worked out which nine though.

[KorvinStarmast]

As Elan might say:

Dun dun DUN! :smallsmile:

Glad to see Sabine will return. Like Quarr's "I thought she was taking vacation days" line.

Artifact? What high level campaign doesn't include an artifact? :smallcool:

Thanks Giant!


I laughed out loud at "it's time to roll our sleeves up and get our followers' hands dirty" :smallbiggrin: Yeah. But who are their followers, I wonder? I don't think Xykon figures in following anyone.

[Athas]

Huh
I'm also looking forward to every character we see doing something even the slightest bit not normal, will earn everyone assuming that they're Sabine.

I'm already suspicious of the dwarf. (I don't know D&D can a succubus change size?)

Also laughed at
:vaarsuvius: It would be unkind of me to speculate on your assorted shortcomings.

[Schroeswald]

The line that really made my eyebrows rise is "...get our followers' hands dirty" in that last panel. Followers, plural, and Qarr is already present so they're not just talking about him and Sabine. The IFCC are high-ranking infernals, so one could assume they'd have minions to do their dirty work, but we've never seen any thus far beyond those with names (and that Erinyes secretary from a gag panel). Makes me wonder what new characters aligned with the Forces Below we'll be seeing soon.

Some wild (and mostly nonserious) guesses include: Sabine reforged a Linear Guild, Curly somehow, Oona, And Redcloak’s Niece!

[Reboot]

I'm already suspicious of the dwarf. (I don't know D&D can a succubus change size?)

I feel like we've seen Sabine change size - when she impersonated the cop, at least - but we've never seen her change colour

[Wowlock]

Wouldn't those Fiends also get destroyed if the Gods decided to destroy the world?

[Schroeswald]

I feel like we've seen Sabine change size - when she impersonated the cop, at least - but we've never seen her change colour

She did impersonate a dwarf too, but said dwarf matched her skin color.

[Anitar]

So, the Directors don't bother covering their hands, despite covering the rest of their bodies. And their skin (for all three of them) is dark red. That's new.


Wouldn't those Fiends also get destroyed if the Gods decided to destroy the world?
No, they'd get their memories wiped. Logically they shouldn't have a way to know that. Not unless they're in contact with a god.

[Gift Jeraff]

Wouldn't those Fiends also get destroyed if the Gods decided to destroy the world?

The Outsiders get a memory wipe according to Thor.

[JeenLeen]

So, it sounds like the IFCC wanted Hel to succeed, since her not succeeding means that the gods did not wind up doing the work for the fiends. So does that mean the fiends want the world destroyed/re-made, or at least that such is the most obvious interpretation?

That seems very odd, considering that outsiders get their memories wiped. I guess it's been unclear if such would apply to fiends as they aren't necessarily outsiders loyal to a given deity (e.g., have a non-compete clause with evil gods implies working with them, not for them.)

I reckon we don't really have enough info to know, but I would have guessed they'd want Hel thwarted.

[Psyren]

Yeah. But who are their followers, I wonder? I don't think Xykon figures in following anyone.

They don't seem to have any kind of love for Xykon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) So far the only followers we know about are the Linear Guild, who are down to.... Sabine and maybe Thog, if he didn't die in that collapse. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)

If they have any besides the Linear Guild, we haven't seen them yet, though of course the "vessel" could be someone we've seen before (Julia?)

[DeTess]

If they have any besides the Linear Guild, we haven't seen them yet, though of course the "vessel" could be someone we've seen before (Julia?)

I reckon it's going to be Tarquin. Sabine has an axe to grind with him after all, and somehow I doubt being a vessel will be particularly healthy.

[KhelArk]

Something about the particular emphasis placed on the rubies (even moreso than the usual, "OK nerds, I'm following the rules!"), juxtaposed with the IFCC's plans for V, just made me think there's some very particular foreshadowing happening here.

So I researched which OTHER spells require ruby or ruby dust for spell components, and one interesting possibility does stick out: Simulacrum!

I'm wondering if those rubies may thus turn be the key to providing a "suitable vessel," or perhaps even a means by which V can evade the terms of his contract.

I think those are both maybe silly ideas, but I'm still wondering if there isn't something more to these rubies than meets the eye.

[Psyren]

I reckon it's going to be Tarquin. Sabine has an axe to grind with him after all, and somehow I doubt being a vessel will be particularly healthy.

Uh, I highly doubt this, why on earth would he agree to that?

1) It makes him a deuteragonist/Dragon (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) to the IFCC instead of the scenery-chewing main villain he firmly thinks he is.

2) He's considerably stronger than Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) so she can't force him.

3) He already got rescued from the desert by Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) so Sabine has no leverage there either.

4) There's already a secondary plot brewing right under his feet with the Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0940.html) he has to worry about. (And incidentally, getting bumped off by a minor NPC who also happens to be a woman of color would be so poetic that I genuinely can't imagine him going out any other way now.)

[Doug Lampert]

I'm already suspicious of the dwarf. (I don't know D&D can a succubus change size?)

Also laughed at
:vaarsuvius: It would be unkind of me to speculate on your assorted shortcomings.

Dwarfs are medium. The only different sized character in the OotS is Belkar at small.

However a succubus has this power:

Change Shape (Su)
An succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don’t know why but the thought of fiends / demons having vacation days just made me chuckle.They also get unholy-day bonuses, as Sabine's was docked for the TV she smashed.


The only artifact (or artifact-adjacent thing) I can think of to exist in this comic is Xykon's phylactery, and I doubt that's what they're referring to.

The phylactery is just a standard magic item. The only confirmed artifact is the Crimson Mantle, although the Greenhilt Sword may qualify as a minor artifact by this point.

[Fyraltari]

maybe they know about the world inside and destroying the world wont do anything anymore, it would just peel back the shell on that one
They do know. V mentioned it last time V was with them and they weren’t surprised nor did they try to learn more (the opposite in fact).

Lots of foreshadowing for developments to come here. Should fuel the speculation for well after more pages start appearing.

The only artifact (or artifact-adjacent thing) I can think of to exist in this comic is Xykon's phylactery, and I doubt that's what they're referring to.
Their crimson mantle, Dorukan and Lirian’s gemstone, Roy’s sword.




The line that really made my eyebrows rise is "...get our followers' hands dirty" in that last panel. Followers, plural, and Qarr is already present so they're not just talking about him and Sabine. The IFCC are high-ranking infernals, so one could assume they'd have minions to do their dirty work, but we've never seen any thus far beyond those with names (and that Erinyes secretary from a gag panel). Makes me wonder what new characters aligned with the Forces Below we'll be seeing soon.
It’s the Vector Legion, mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.


I'm also looking forward to every character we see doing something even the slightest bit not normal, will earn everyone assuming that they're Sabine.
I don’t think any of the main characters match her skin colour, though.

I get on my phone to see the latest thread up, immediately click for the comic, and then (literally) jump for joy to see the IFCC and Qatar return, without me getting the chance to read it until a few minutes in.
I’m not sure wether Qarr or the entire country of Qatar should be the one offended here.

Something about the particular emphasis placed on the rubies (even moreso than the usual, "OK nerds, I'm following the rules!"), juxtaposed with the IFCC's plans for V, just made me think there's some very particular foreshadowing happening here.
I think it’s just a parallel between how V treats rubies and how the Directors treat everybody. Also The Giant doesn’t follow the rules.



Uh, I highly doubt this, why on earth would he agree to that?

1) It makes him a deuteragonist/Dragon (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) to the IFCC instead of the scenery-chewing main villain he firmly thinks he is.

2) He's considerably stronger than Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) so she can't force him.

3) He already got rescued from the desert by Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) so Sabine has no leverage there either.

4) There's already a secondary plot brewing right under his feet with the Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0940.html) he has to worry about. (And incidentally, getting bumped off by a minor NPC who also happens to be a woman of color would be so poetic that I genuinely can't imagine him going out any other way now.)
Tarquin only cares about getting back at Elan he’d follow any lead to it. The VL has to deal with a rampaging Snarl on their territory, they’re going to want that dealt with wether Tarquin agrees or not anyway and the rest of the team can force him to comply because
A) he’s not the boss and
B) they have rules for this kind of things ‘Business first’.

It was heavily foreshadowed in ‘Where her loyalty lies’ that Sabine would betray the Directors for Nale’s sake, the only way this pays off now is if the Directors want her to work with his murderer.

[Windscion]

When I saw the title I figured we'd get an update on Team Evil. And we did, just not the evil team I was expecting.

And yes, I am sure Sabine mixes business with pleasure, most conspicuously with Nale. Which just makes me wonder, giving that she is using vacation days, if she isn't trying some angle to get Nale back.

As far as the idea of fiends having vacation days, um, devils would have a bureaucracy, but Sabine is a demon, right? So never mind.

[Psyren]

Tarquin only cares about getting back at Elan he’d follow any lead to it.

No, you're thinking of Nale; Tarquin cares about procedure.


The VL has to deal with a rampaging Snarl on their territory, they’re going to want that dealt with wether Tarquin agrees or not anyway and the rest of the team can force him to comply because
A) he’s not the boss and
B) they have rules for this kind of things ‘Business first’.

That's a fair point, we don't know how they're reacting to the Snarl. I do think Tarquin going up against Elan again wastes a bit of foreshadowing and damages Elan's thesis though, since a final showdown with Elan is exactly what Tarquin wants (and what ordinary story convention would demand.)


It was heavily foreshadowed in ‘Where her loyalty lies’ that Sabine would betray the Directors for Nale’s sake, the only way this pays off now is if the Directors want her to work with his murderer.

She sort of showed her defiance already by secretly tipping V off in how to beat Laurin.

Though it's interesting that they apparently wanted Hel to succeed, which would have meant wanting Durkula to get where he was going, so they shouldn't have wanted Tarquin to dust him... gah, my head hurts.

[MossyMeow]

I was excited when I saw the new comic, got more excited when I saw the three fiends, and then got even more excited when I read their dialogue. And, as always, Blackwing delivers the final-panel punchline like a pro.

[Arkain]

"it's time to really roll our sleeves up and get our follower's hands dirty" :smallbiggrin:

Good to see the IFCC again.

[Anitar]

As far as the idea of fiends having vacation days, um, devils would have a bureaucracy, but Sabine is a demon, right? So never mind.

Yes she is, but she works for Lee, the devil among the directors.

[Peelee]

It’s the Vector Legion, mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.

I'll take that bet.

[Edward15]

The next book is the last, IIRC.


The next book will be about both, seeing as it is the final one :P

Where was that mentioned?

[Malfarian]

IMO that would be a GREAT last strip, but since it isn't and the Bard tells us it will be great, we KNOW something even bigger is coming.

[kaoskonfety]

Yes she is, but she works for Lee, the devil among the directors.

Probably because of the vacation days...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Dorukan and Lirian’s gemstone

Just an ordinary shiny rock. The important part there is the Trap the Soul spell.

[Phhase]

Oooooh...I feel like the IFCC has somehow found a way around being mind-wiped at the end of each world's lifetime...after all, they know exactly what's going on. Perhaps THIS what happens if you forget to wipe every outsider...

[bronzeclaw]

This is completely unrelated to this comic, but I thought this the easiest way to get this idea into reality.
I went to go buy an apron with "You can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens..." but found that it was only available in shirts...
Does anyone want to second that this should be an apron?

Also, Where should I have posted this?

thanks,

[Jasdoif]

Where was that mentioned?Here.



In the intro to Don't Split the Party (Book 4) I believe the Giant says that at the end of this book the story will be more than half way through, plot wise. The fact that this is the first time this can be said (and not at the end of Book 3) says the half way point is somewhere in the course of Book 4. That supports seven books also.

Yeah, it'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book.

And Utterly Dwarfed is (will be?) the sixth "main storyline" book, meaning the next book will be the seventh, meaning we'll need to remember what phone books look like it'll be the last.

[wRAR]

Are the rubies really just for the forcecage spell? There is too much of them.

[faustin]

When I saw the title I figured we'd get an update on Team Evil. And we did, just not the evil team I was expecting.

And yes, I am sure Sabine mixes business with pleasure, most conspicuously with Nale. Which just makes me wonder, giving that she is using vacation days, if she isn't trying some angle to get Nale back.

As far as the idea of fiends having vacation days, um, devils would have a bureaucracy, but Sabine is a demon, right? So never mind.

Not sure how Hell works in the OoTSverse, but shouldn't Nale's soul have already been reborn into a Mane?

[Fyraltari]

Re: The artifact, it can’t be anything that belongs to the main characters (vilains included) since Cedrik already has it. So it’s most likely a brand new doomsday device. Hmm, does anyone recall what happened to the talisman Nale was after? Weren’t the Directors the one that tipped him about it in the first place? What was that chekov’s Gun longevity record again?


No, you're thinking of Nale; Tarquin cares about procedure.
Counterpoint:

a final showdown with Elan is exactly what Tarquin wants (and what ordinary story convention would demand.)
Do note that the VL ending up in service to the IFCC is in no way a guarantee of a Elan/Tarquin showdown, for once they are V’s arch-nemesis(es?) and for twice I could totally see Tarquin dying to Xykon as is proper for a big bad wanabe.




She sort of showed her defiance already by secretly tipping V off in how to beat Laurin.
How is that defiant?


I'll take that bet.
Imma put that in my sig so we don’t forget.

[Edward15]

Here.





And Utterly Dwarfed is (will be?) the sixth "main storyline" book, meaning the next book will be the seventh, meaning we'll need to remember what phone books look like it'll be the last.

Dang. I was hoping it would last a little longer than that.

[Ghosty]

...The phylactery is just a standard magic item. The only confirmed artifact is the Crimson Mantle, although the Greenhilt Sword may qualify as a minor artifact by this point.

The totally-not-the-Hammer of Thunderbolts that Durkon is now swinging?

I wonder if it's some other artifact from D&D lore? Probably still under product identity, and can't be used. What sort of artifact would be useful for the Directors?

[Baphomet]

As to the question of what artifact they refer to, I'm not necessarily throwing my vote this way, but has anyone considered the unholy chalice Quarr was trying to get V to mess with?

[Elkad]

...grams...

Wizards. Using scientific measurements when everyone else is using stones and cubits.

[Resileaf]

Dang. I was hoping it would last a little longer than that.

It'll still last very long. The seventh book will be as big as it needs to be, so for all we know, it'll still be going on for years.

[Snails]

For story reasons, it makes sense for Sabine to choose to screw over Tarquin.

For practical reasons, that is quite hard for her to accomplish; as Tarquin wears a Ring of True Seeing, he himself is more difficult to manipulate than your typical near epic level Face.

It is conceivable for Sabine to work against Tarquin via his out of town allies and various enemies, though, but what that would mean specifically would require a more insight than I can muster this morning. It is likely that Tarquin is still obsessed with Elan, so there may be ways to encourage him in that unhealthy hobby.

[HeraldOfExius]

...it cost us nothing and we can still proceed.

Given that letting Girard's gate get destroyed cost them one of their claims on V's soul, I'm curious to see what they would consider to be an actual cost.

[Ghosty]

Are the rubies really just for the forcecage spell? There is too much of them.

An incomplete list (most of what I could find by Googling, related to 5e spells), but this thread goes into detail about spells with expensive components. https://www.enworld.org/threads/spell-list-with-expensive-materials.43348/

It's incomplete---Simulacrum is not mentioned. Edit part 2, it is mentioned, I just glossed over it. Thought it was an 8th level spell, not a 7th.

EDIT: got interrupted, but the only spell I see on that list that might be it is Temporal Stasis. Or the 6th level Fire Spiders one, just because that'd be cool to see the Giant draw.

[Snails]

It'll still last very long. The seventh book will be as big as it needs to be, so for all we know, it'll still be going on for years.

It could be made into Part 1 and Part 2, where by story arc the tale is split at the narrative middle point. If necessary.

That would not be intentionally misleading, as even a pretty good high level outline of the plots would not necessarily be predictive of the amount of effort in art the artist may choose to employ. This was a prediction made years and years ago. The Giant's style has slowly evolved over that time.

[Psyren]

Do note that the VL ending up in service to the IFCC is in no way a guarantee of a Elan/Tarquin showdown, for once they are V’s arch-nemesis(es?) and for twice I could totally see Tarquin dying to Xykon as is proper for a big bad wanabe.

Which makes this idea even worse, because now we're saying he doesn't even have a guarantee of running into Elan again with this plan, much less being killed by him directly like he wants.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that the defeat + Snarl aren't sufficient for him to flush his characterization down the toilet like that, just that I'm... willing to lay odds that's not the case.



How is that defiant?

I presumed she was whispering because she didn't want her bosses to know what she was saying. Seems logical to me.

[Edward15]

Given that letting Girard's gate get destroyed cost them one of their claims on V's soul, I'm curious to see what they would consider to be an actual cost.
I think they were referring to Hel's scheme. Since they weren't involved in it, they didn't have to expend any resources.

[Frozenstep]

Nice to see the IFCC in the new art style.

The special attention to the rubies is interesting. It demonstrates the goodness of Durkon's family (but we've seen that plenty) and 2 jokes, but what else does it show?

V will be plenty prepared for more force cages.

It shows force cage actually requires rubies to be consumed, which a non-dnd player won't know without this scene. So later on, it's possible the rubies being used up/stolen will come up.

Those rubies exist, so they could be used for something else. Simulacrum was already pointed out, but is there any bard/cleric spells that also require rubies?

[drazen]

So it would have helped the fiends if Hel had managed to get the world destroyed? Are they really trying to destroy it themselves, in that case?

They did say their actions were "part of a scheme to bring down the gods of Good," which Hel becoming Queen of the Northern Pantheon would probably do, as then the Northern Pantheon would be dominated by Evil, and Hel would work to rig the new world in her favor to starve all the Northern Gods of soul power.

However, the fiends did say they had a plan for the gates, specifically. Maybe that plan was just to destroy them all? Except now the Good gods know not to cash in any souls from the apocalypse, if it gets to that point. Maybe their artifact is a really elaborate Trap the Soul spell for the whole world when it ends? Catch the dwarves then turn them over to Hel, if the gods wouldn't normally allow it?

[Resileaf]

It could be made into Part 1 and Part 2, where by story arc the tale is split at the narrative middle point. If necessary.

That would not be intentionally misleading, as even a pretty good high level outline of the plots would not necessarily be predictive of the amount of effort in art the artist may choose to employ. This was a prediction made years and years ago. The Giant's style has slowly evolved over that time.

Rich has stated he'd make the final book as big as it needs to be, and I am inclined to believe him, and if he changes his mind, he'll tell us quite clearly.

[Snails]

As to the question of what artifact they refer to, I'm not necessarily throwing my vote this way, but has anyone considered the unholy chalice Quarr was trying to get V to mess with?

That is a pretty good guess.

On the other hand, Qarr seemed genuinely surprised that the amigos were in on this game.

Of course, the pipsqueak could be a better manipulator than I have sussed out, but the concrete evidence for such is notably thin so far (beyond the useless "he is so damn good than he seems almost incompetent all the time").

[Snails]

Rich has stated he'd make the final book as big as it needs to be, and I am inclined to believe him, and if he changes his mind, he'll tell us quite clearly.

Sure. I do not disagree. But The Giant may not actually know himself until he is a third of the way through the 7th book, and he realizes how he wants to treat certain sub-arcs is more expansive than he first imagined those years ago.

[Windscion]

And Utterly Dwarfed is (will be?) the sixth "main storyline" book, meaning the next book will be the seventh, meaning we'll need to remember what phone books look like it'll be the last.

Snerk.
Pepperidge Farms remembers.

[Nightcanon]

New comic is up.

Dun dun dunh!

[Ghosty]

...Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that the defeat + Snarl aren't sufficient for him to flush his characterization down the toilet like that, just that I'm... willing to lay odds that's not the case...

FWIW, I'm totally on board with your prediction, or just the appropriateness, of Tarquin getting ganked by a woman of color minor character. Preferably off-screen, and mentioned only in passing.

Seems more and more fitting as I keep thinking about it. Which probably means it won't happen that way.

[Nightcanon]

I'm already suspicious of the dwarf. (I don't know D&D can a succubus change size?)



That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).

[Lkctgo]

Can anyone estimate just how much GPs worth of Rubies V just got from Durkon's extended family? Given the seeming wealth and power of Durkon's "family", I wonder why isn't Sidgi's arm fixed (not wanting to live on her "family's" charity is one thing - but this seems like it won't even have been a problem to pay for it)?

[Giggling Ghast]

So, it sounds like the IFCC wanted Hel to succeed, since her not succeeding means that the gods did not wind up doing the work for the fiends. So does that mean the fiends want the world destroyed/re-made, or at least that such is the most obvious interpretation?

That seems very odd, considering that outsiders get their memories wiped.

Obviously they have some goal in mind that the destruction of the world would achieve. The question is: what?

[b_jonas]

I was wondering if Team Evil payed the material cost to create all those zombies in their army.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).

She was. Also, they can change size, as long as it's small or medium.

[MossyMeow]

It sounds like the IFCC wanted the gods to destroy the world, which makes me wonder: what is their goal? I've been trying to puzzle it out, but I am terrible at theorizing. It's all a confusing jumble of information. Ah well, analysis isn't my cup of tea anyway.

[gatemansgc]

hot damn, introducing some great new plot threads as the book winds down.

i literally only checked for the lulz, was not expecting a new comic so soon O_o

[Psyren]

FWIW, I'm totally on board with your prediction, or just the appropriateness, of Tarquin getting ganked by a woman of color minor character. Preferably off-screen, and mentioned only in passing.

Seems more and more fitting as I keep thinking about it. Which probably means it won't happen that way.

I think it should be "on-screen" for us, while barely meriting a footnote for his empire - thus robbing him of the inspirational (and, in his mind, "narratively satisfying") martyrdom at his son's hands that he sought for himself. Kinda like how Tsukiko was unceremoniously offed and very swiftly forgotten.

I'll leave further speculation on Tarquin's defeat for another thread though.


Can anyone estimate just how much GPs worth of Rubies V just got from Durkon's extended family? Given the seeming wealth and power of Durkon's "family", I wonder why isn't Sidgi's arm fixed (not wanting to live on her "family's" charity is one thing - but this seems like it won't even have been a problem to pay for it)?

My educated guess is "enough to cast more Forcecages without the Order having to do another shopping detour/montage."


When I saw the title I figured we'd get an update on Team Evil. And we did, just not the evil team I was expecting.

And yes, I am sure Sabine mixes business with pleasure, most conspicuously with Nale. Which just makes me wonder, giving that she is using vacation days, if she isn't trying some angle to get Nale back.

As far as the idea of fiends having vacation days, um, devils would have a bureaucracy, but Sabine is a demon, right? So never mind.

I believe the whole point of the IFCC is mixing diabolic bureaucracy with demonic impulse. So succubi with vacation days makes perfect sense to me.


That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).

Since, as you've correctly stated, they've shown her impersonate a dwarf in-comic before, it wouldn't have mattered whether that was RAW or not. (Though in this case, it is.)

[Schroeswald]

That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).

Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).

[Fyraltari]

Which makes this idea even worse, because now we're saying he doesn't even have a guarantee of running into Elan again with this plan, much less being killed by him directly like he wants.

So? Since when do people only do things when there’s a guarantee of suces?

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that the defeat + Snarl aren't sufficient for him to flush his characterization down the toilet like that, just that I'm... willing to lay odds that's not the case.
How is chasing Elan ‘flushing his characterization down the toilet’ when that’s what he spent the end of Book Five doing? Hell, passing a chance to pursue would be out-of-character.




I presumed she was whispering because she didn't want her bosses to know what she was saying. Seems logical to me.
Isn’t that a lack of defiance, though? Since she didn’t want them to notice? ‘Where her loyalties lie’ has Qarr warning her that she should be loyal to the Directors, not Nale, even making a death threat on their behalf. It then ends with her telling Nale she’s with him ‘all the way’ as they leave the frame. That foreshadows that she will openly betray the Directors and pay for it. That’s going to be the conclusion of her narrative, it’s not gonna be resolved in a one-panel flashback where she gives one advice to get rid of two but vilains.

Except now the Good gods know not to cash in any souls from the apocalypse, if it gets to that point.

What? Why wouldn’t they?

[Lord Torath]

She sort of showed her defiance already by secretly tipping V off in how to beat Laurin.
How is that defiant?I rather agree with Fyraltari here. Helping Varsuvious is certainly not "betraying" the IFCC in the traditional sense of the word. All it did was help her (Sabine) get a measure of revenge on her lover's killer(s). I doubt the IFCC really cared who won the fight, as long as V survived.

I've been trying to find a connection between the IFCC and the discussion V was having with Durkon's 'cousin'. It feels kind of abrupt to me. One the one hand, they are the reason V has a firm value on a person's time. And does Blackwing's comment apply to the followers of the IFCC (whose hands will be getting dirty) or to the IFCC themselves?

Regarding Artifacts, someone mentioned the one Nale & Co were after in the Dungeon of Dorukon. Sadly (or happily, your opinions may vary), the Talisman of Dorukon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html) is no longer available (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html).

On a completely different note: Thanks, Rich!

[Rrmcklin]

What reason does Sabine have to betray the IFCC in the first place? They weren't responsible for what happened to Nale, and since Nale is gone the conflict of interests there is effectively over.

I disagree with the notion that the story would be better for bring the Vector Legion back into things, but Sabine ever did want to screw with Tarquin and his buddies, I doubt they (the IFCC) would have a reason to care.

[Grey Watcher]

Well that was ominous. Good to get a teeny bit more info on the IFCC's plan, though, as we now know it involves destroying this world (Related: do they need to avoid Snarly death for the world or will any doomsday do?)

Also, as non-dieific outsiders, they're slated to have their memories wiped between this world and the next. I wonder if they're aware of this and, if so, what their countermeasure is.

Also, they're all red-skinned. That's another (probably useless) tidbit of info we didn't have before.

Lastly, and most importantly, I have to remember that line of Vaarsuvius's in panel three. Way to good not to use.

[Fyraltari]

What reason does Sabine have to betray the IFCC in the first place? They weren't responsible for what happened to Nale, and since Nale is gone the conflict of interests there is effectively over.

I disagree with the notion that the story would be better for bring the Vector Legion back into things, but Sabine ever did want to screw with Tarquin and his buddies, I doubt they (the IFCC) would have a reason to care.

The IFCC needs new pawns to take over from the Linear Guild. The Vector Legion is ideally suited for that role being
A) Evil,
B) Already acquainted with Sabine and
C) Already motivated to make a bid for the last Gate either for personal reasons (Tarquin and maybe fixing whatever happened to Laurin) and/or to secure their empires from threat of the Snarl (and not dying too).

My thinking is that the Directors ordered Sabine to direct the VL to the North Pole on order to play whatever part the IFCC needs minions for (and they’ve just confirmed they still do need some) and Sabine will take advantage of that to cause Tarquin’s and probably the rest of the Legion’s too) death. Which will result in the Directors punishing her (can they even kill her?).

The only thing that doesn’t jive with that is Ian and his gang, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if Elan’s plan turned out to be something that would decridibilise Tarquin without involving a direct confrontation.

[Cerlis]

in regards to the idea of the plot moving on fromt he 9 hells and the graphic quality of that place

i'm reminded of that moment in the cartoon Chowder

"Look what you did! Now the animators are going to have to draw all this fire!"

[nolongeralurker]

!!!!!
Yet again the Giant surprises me. With everyone expecting to see Team Evil again soon and talking about whether they'll have found the Gate (I personally think it's be too soon and too expected), we (or at least I) completely forgot about the characters-whose-organizational-acronym-I-forget-right-now,-dang-it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Can anyone estimate just how much GPs worth of Rubies V just got from Durkon's extended family?

Zero GP. Vaarsuvius didn't pay for them. Value is solely dependent on what you pay. If you pay 25,000GP for a diamond the size of a pinhead, that is then a 25,000GP diamond for the purposes of spell casting. Rich lampooned this at the beginning of the last book.

[Jasdoif]

Rich lampooned this at the beginning of the last book.With rubies, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) 100gp no less.

[Nightcanon]

Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).

I'm not heavily invested in this. Just had a bit of a moment when it was mentioned that Sabine was on her holidays. The crosscut/zoom to the IFCC works fine with V's comment re the value of one's time.
Is there a limit to the degree to which succubi can alter skin tone? (I get that it would be a useful indicator that Sabine is around if there were a limit in-comic--though without going back to compare, I would have said that Kandro is darker than Sabine).

[Vessyra]

Nice to see V becoming aware of time; quite a shift from previous statements, such as claiming that she was going to get around to naming Blackwing "One of these centuries", and spending a hundred year before learning one first-level spell.
Quite a shift for this centuries-old elf to suddenly become acutely aware for even one day of work lost.

[TRH]

I rather agree with Fyraltari here. Helping Varsuvious is certainly not "betraying" the IFCC in the traditional sense of the word. All it did was help her (Sabine) get a measure of revenge on her lover's killer(s). I doubt the IFCC really cared who won the fight, as long as V survived.


I don't think they even knew there was a fight until after the fact. Their TV was smashed, and right before they sent V back they assumed that all that was happening up top was just "more family angst." So they certainly had no dog in a fight they didn't know about.

[Forealms]

I'm going to take a shot and say the vessel is Julia Greenhilt. It ties her back into the story to resolve the Greenhilt family arc and she has an established history with Sabine (and is lightly implied to be bi, not that that's a barrier with Sabine's shapeshifting).

All the other pieces are too vague to make real ties to anything, but if I'm giving it a shot, burgeoning wizards are a classic "vessel" in fantasy (see Harry Potter, Raymond Feist).

[Schroeswald]

I'm not heavily invested in this. Just had a bit of a moment when it was mentioned that Sabine was on her holidays. The crosscut/zoom to the IFCC works fine with V's comment re the value of one's time.
Is there a limit to the degree to which succubi can alter skin tone (I get that it would be a useful indicator that Sabine is around if there were a limit in-comic--though without going back to compare, I would have said that Kandro is darker than Sabine).

I was looking at some muted stuff making everything harder to distinguish (and thinking of Hoskin), but yeah, no one really has her skin tone (though Kandro and Hoskin are close enough I could see her skin being changed with the art change).

[gatemansgc]

Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).

this was my thought too. she can change her shape into anything as long as it's the same skin color.

[Sc00by]

Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.

I'm sure someone already corrected this, but Xykon is basically Redcloak's shotgun and Redcloak is the Dark One's pawn and the real enemy is either the Snarl or the Dark One, or possibly both, depending on whether you are a God or not.

[Fyraltari]

I thought the Giant had confirmed that the story would climax with the final Roy vs Xykon battle but I can’t find that quote.

Let’s christen the new thread: Summon Banana VI!

[Psyren]

I rather agree with Fyraltari here. Helping Varsuvious is certainly not "betraying" the IFCC in the traditional sense of the word. All it did was help her (Sabine) get a measure of revenge on her lover's killer(s). I doubt the IFCC really cared who won the fight, as long as V survived.

And yet, she felt the need to hide her advice-giving from them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) I'm making an educated guess that she had a reason for doing that, even if it's one that isn't apparent to you and me. The Giant doesn't tend to draw things randomly.


So? Since when do people only do things when there’s a guarantee of suces?

And what would the pitch sound like in your view? "Hey come abandon your empire to play second-banana-fiddle to my fiendish overlords for a plan they haven't revealed to me, and there's a chance that maybe this unknown plan that sort of involves your son's coworker might bring you within striking distance of him in some way at some point?"


How is chasing Elan ‘flushing his characterization down the toilet’ when that’s what he spent the end of Book Five doing? Hell, passing a chance to pursue would be out-of-character.

Actually he was chasing Roy - to murder him, so that Elan would end up vowing revenge and leading whatever new adventuring party he gathered up to make his dad the center of his world.


Isn’t that a lack of defiance, though? Since she didn’t want them to notice?

The word you originally used was "betray," and doing something behind their back qualifies. If it was something they wanted her to do, there'd be no reason to hide it.

[JumboWheat01]

RIP sparklies, you shall be missed.

[Fyraltari]

And yet, she felt the need to hide her advice-giving from them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) I'm making an educated guess that she had a reason for doing that, even if it's one that isn't apparent to you and me. The Giant doesn't tend to draw things randomly.
Being careful about what people knows you are doing is a useful trait in hell (since everyone really is against you).
She doesn’t know what the Directors want, so she didn’t know wether they’d approve of her interference or not. Being coy about it makes sense.




And what would the pitch sound like in your view? "Hey come abandon your empire to play second-banana-fiddle to my fiendish overlords for a plan they haven't revealed to me, and there's a chance that maybe this unknown plan that sort of involves your son's coworker might bring you within striking distance of him in some way at some point?"
‘You know that son of yours you desperately want to battle to the death and his coworker and his girlfriend whose guts you hate all of whom I use to fight all the time? They’re going to this place which is also the one place where you can stop the monster tearing reality apart on your turf. What do you say we get there?’

It’s not like she ever told the Linear Guild that they were being used either.




Actually he was chasing Roy - to murder him, so that Elan would end up vowing revenge and leading whatever new adventuring party he gathered up to make his dad the center of his world.
Which is why he didn’t target Roy at all on the airship and was solely focused on Elan (after he broke Haley’s arm)?
He only cares about Roy because Elan cares more about Roy than about him. It’s Elan he’s got beef with.
Even if that was correct, Elan and Roy are at the same place and going to the same place.


The word you originally used was "betray," and doing something behind their back qualifies. If it was something they wanted her to do, there'd be no reason to hide it.
Keeping a secret from someone is not a betrayal. She didn’t even know wether it would be a problem for them either. And you are completely ignoring how the strip foreshadows her death (or equivalent) due to her actions.

[Sniccups]

Why are we discussing whether Sabine can change her skin color? Of course she can. It's a much less drastic change than becoming a dwarf, and the rules (which I know don't matter much anymore, but still) say "any Small or Medium humanoid". It would be a rather arbitrary limitation, honestly.

[hroþila]

Tarquin being this vessel would be an intriguing possibility, but that theory is not without its own problems (for example, how would it affect and perhaps undermine the ending of BRitF? Would Tarquin volunteer? And in case it's not voluntary, could Sabine force him or fool him?). I don't think any of these problems are deal-breakers, but all in all I wouldn't bet on Tarquin being the vessel.

At the same time, while introducing completely new characters is a possibility, I think this is more likely to involve known characters. Could be the Vector Legion, with or without Tarquin. Could be a reformed Linear Guild, without Nale but with Thog. Could be just Thog. Could even be Nale as some sort of weird ad hoc undead. I suppose by this point I'm listing possibilities with pretty terrible odds but hey.

As for the goal of the archfiends, I suspect destroying the world is not their goal but rather a means to achieve that goal. Perhaps they want to do something during the demolition that will result in the Snarl getting out and killing the gods?

Why are we discussing whether Sabine can change her skin color? Of course she can. It's a much less drastic change than becoming a dwarf, and the rules (which I know don't matter much anymore, but still) say "any Small or Medium humanoid". It would be a rather arbitrary limitation, honestly.
She's never done it in the comic, even when changing her skin colour would have improved her disguise (by making it even harder for the Order to detect her). It's possible that she can do it, but it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that she can't.

[Breccia]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh damn, I'm really excited/worried about what those three call the direct approach.

[understatement]

wOw, really didn't expect to see them back in the game. Great strip!

Man, the Order's going to have the worst of times at Kraagor's. Or anywhere, really.

[Schroeswald]

She's never done it in the comic, even when changing her skin colour would have improved her disguise (by making it even harder for the Order to detect her). It's possible that she can do it, but it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that she can't.

To second this point, the dwarven blacksmith was actually white but when she pretended to be him she had her own skin tone. I think there’s also a quote about part of the reasoning for her skin color being chosen was so she could fit in as part of several races and a wide variety of settings (I’ll second Fyraltari’s [hey it autocorrected to it when I misspelled! The plan from months ago is working] Summon Banana VI).

[Aidan]

As a quick little idea, maybe we're going to do a brief check-in on the various enemies of the Order before the book ends, much like we have in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
With us next flashing to maybe O-Chul and Lien, and then Team Evil(Xykon and company), before we cut to black.

[Jasdoif]

I thought the Giant had confirmed that the story would climax with the final Roy vs Xykon battle but I can’t find that quote.

Let’s christen the new thread: Summon Banana VI!If he did, I didn't find it. The closest I came up with was a reference to a post in a moderator-ally removed thread implying that the current book was going to be rough for anyone who only cares about what happens to Xykon...which I don't think rises to the level of confirming "Roy-vs-Xykon will be the climax".



To second this point, the dwarven blacksmith was actually white but when she pretended to be him she had her own skin tone. I think there’s also a quote about part of the reasoning for her skin color being chosen was so she could fit in as part of several races and a wide variety of settings (I’ll second Fyraltari’s [hey it autocorrected to it when I misspelled! The plan from months ago is working] Summon Banana VI).Sort of.

In the case of Sabine, she is the tone that she is for two reasons: One, because it is a "mixed race" tone that could pass for any ethnic group in a pinch, as befits a shapeshifter, and two, because I wanted there to be at least one person of color on the Linear Guild. Yikyik, Thog, and Zz'dtri all needed to be the colors that they were due to their species, and Nale needed to be the same color as Elan. So, I could have made either Sabine or Hilgya dark skinned....I chose Sabine because Durkon is dark-skinned, and I wanted there to be some difference between Hilgya and Durkon to show that dwarves have races, too.

[Lukraak]

I don't post often, but for this... :)

My guess is the vessel is Thog (or whatever is left of him).
The IFCC did mention him as one of their followers and Sabine could easily convince him of anything she wants, especially if she mentions it's revenge for Nale.

[Sniccups]

I don't post often, but for this... :)

My guess is the vessel is Thog (or whatever is left of him).
The IFCC did mention him as one of their followers and Sabine could easily convince him of anything she wants, especially if she mentions it's revenge for Nale.

That's actually an interesting idea. Half-alive, possessed Thog!

[Ruck]

I get on my phone to see the latest thread up, immediately click for the comic, and then (literally) jump for joy to see the IFCC and Qatar return, without me getting the chance to read it until a few minutes in.

Rich was quite clear the planet in the rift is not Earth.

[Jasdoif]

I get on my phone to see the latest thread up, immediately click for the comic, and then (literally) jump for joy to see the IFCC and Qatar return, without me getting the chance to read it until a few minutes in.Rich was quite clear the planet in the rift is not Earth.Maybe Qarr has a katar?

[Fyraltari]

Fyraltari’s [hey it autocorrected to it when I misspelled! The plan from months ago is working]
Victory! : )

If he did, I didn't find it. The closest I came up with was a reference to a post in a moderator-ally removed thread implying that the current book was going to be rough for anyone who only cares about what happens to Xykon...which I don't think rises to the level of confirming "Roy-vs-Xykon will be the climax".]

Defeat! : (

[Schroeswald]

Autocorrect will be the death of me, right when it starts helping me with Fyraltari it goes and does this (I think it’s stopped fighting me on the Mechane though, no methane this time).

[Psyren]

Being careful about what people knows you are doing is a useful trait in hell (since everyone really is against you).
She doesn’t know what the Directors want, so she didn’t know wether they’d approve of her interference or not. Being coy about it makes sense.

Right, so she willingly went behind their backs. Betrayal.


‘You know that son of yours you desperately want to battle to the death and his coworker and his girlfriend whose guts you hate all of whom I use to fight all the time? They’re going to this place which is also the one place where you can stop the monster tearing reality apart on your turf. What do you say we get there?’

"Why would I do that when that would put me on a collision course with the B-villain that the heroes are destined to defeat for me anyway? Especially when I'm fully aware that villains fighting each other is always a crapshoot?"



Which is why he didn’t target Roy at all on the airship and was solely focused on Elan (after he broke Haley’s arm)?
He only cares about Roy because Elan cares more about Roy than about him. It’s Elan he’s got beef with.
Even if that was correct, Elan and Roy are at the same place and going to the same place.

He didn't have time to go after Roy on the airship :smallconfused: He boarded, told Elan he was going to kill everyone else and chop off Elan's hand, and the Vaarsuvius hit him with Bixby's something or other and he was out of the fight for the remainder.



Keeping a secret from someone is not a betrayal.

When that someone is your boss? We'll have to agree to disagree then.

[Ellye]

Would the IFCC even survive if the gods decided to remake the world?

I was under the impressions that the outer planes would be remade as well...

That's supported by the fact that the IFCC don't even know about previous worlds, so they were created together with this one.

[Schroeswald]

Would the IFCC even survive if the gods decided to remake the world?

I was under the impressions that the outer planes would be remade as well...

That's supported by the fact that the IFCC don't even know about previous worlds, so they were created together with this one.
We have to wipe all the Outsiders' memories every time we remake the world because they go a bit nuts if we don't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html)
But who knows how much they are aware of what's going on (they might well retain older memories or have no clue about it).

[Fyraltari]

Right, so she willingly went behind their backs. Betrayal.

Didn’t hurt them or her in the slightest.


"Why would I do that when that would put me on a collision course with the B-villain that the heroes are destined to defeat for me anyway? Especially when I'm fully aware that villains fighting each other is always a crapshoot?"
Because you are insanely obsessed with beating Elan and not letting Roy steal his thunder.




He didn't have time to go after Roy on the airship :smallconfused: He boarded, told Elan he was going to kill everyone else and chop off Elan's hand, and the Vaarsuvius hit him with Bixby's something or other and he was out of the fight for the remainder.
He attacked Elan specifically and started monologuing to him. He only cares about Roy insofar as to how he influences Elan. He even offered to fund Roy when he realized he was losing.

But let me ask you. If not the Vector Legion, then who do you think the IFFC calls their ‘followers’?


When that someone is your boss? We'll have to agree to disagree then.
Do you tell your bosses everything you do?

Edit:

We have to wipe all the Outsiders' memories every time we remake the world because they go a bit nuts if we don't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html)
But who knows how much they are aware of what's going on (they might well retain older memories or have no clue about it).

The IFCC did not know about the Snarl until Sabine told them. And they did not know about the world in the rift when Blackwing looked but the knew when they called V down. It looks like they gained a source of info we don’t know about (possibly Tiamat as she has her numbers).

[TRH]

Right, so she willingly went behind their backs. Betrayal.


By that logic, Belkar betrayed Roy by getting his Protection from Evil clasp, something he did behind Roy's back. And was neither asked nor encouraged to do since Roy didn't believe that Greg had been using Dominate Person on Belkar to make him jump off the ship repeatedly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

this was my thought too. she can change her shape into anything as long as it's the same skin color.

Hair color stays the same too.

[Psyren]

Do you tell your bosses everything you do?

Her arrangement with them seems a heck of a lot more involved than just collecting a paycheck to me. But like I said, agree to disagree.


"Because you are insanely obsessed with beating Elan and not letting Roy steal his thunder."

"Wrong, I want Elan to come back and beat me. You still haven't said anything about how this harebrained non-plan will achieve that."


He attacked Elan specifically and started monologuing to him.

He sundered his weapon to keep him from interfering.


But let me ask you. If not the Vector Legion, then who do you think the IFFC calls their ‘followers’?

You mean the same VL that didn't even know about the gates until Nale told them, even though Sabine had known for months? Some followers.

[ratfox]

I was expecting somebody to say "oh crap, that was a cutaway scene right now, wasn't it? That means an enemy is preparing to attack us" or words to that effect.
I think it happened before in OOTS, but I don't remember where?

[NobleCuriosity]

The IFCC did not know about the Snarl until Sabine told them. And they did not know about the world in the rift when Blackwing looked but the knew when they called V down. It looks like they gained a source of info we don’t know about (possibly Tiamat as she has her numbers).

Wait, how do we know
A) that they didn’t know about the world in the rift before Blackwing looked? Saying they don’t understand why the bird is just staring (in the middle of a really tense situation) does not necessarily imply that they don’t know, just that they think it isn’t as important at that moment as what’s going on outside.
B) that (assuming they didn’t know of the world pre-Blackwing stare) they learned about the world through some new method, rather than simply aiming their scry-TV into the hole sometime after getting temporarily confused over Blackwing’s fascination with it? Or, possibly, they have a fiendish Teevo (which we know at least one has) recording everything V does, and some intern charged with looking over the tape saw Blackwing telling V exactly that.


Also Re: ongoing discussion on the “vessel:” why do we think it’s a person? Given the prior conversation, it seems more likely to be a vessel for the artifact they’re discussing, and thus likely inanimate—a means of further transport for it, to safely move it from orange-fiend’s domain (I forget which one they were).

[LadyEowyn]

Ooh! Things just got much more interesting.

[NobleCuriosity]

I was expecting somebody to say "oh crap, that was a cutaway scene right now, wasn't it? That means an enemy is preparing to attack us" or words to that effect.
I think it happened before in OOTS, but I don't remember where?

When Pete sold them out to the Thieves guild, his old pal detected the cutaway panel and inferred some enemies had found him.

Ah here it is, strip 602: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html

[Doug Lampert]

Those rubies exist, so they could be used for something else. Simulacrum was already pointed out, but is there any bard/cleric spells that also require rubies?

SRD list of spells with Ruby in the description:

Continual Flame (Cleric, Sorcerer/Wizard)
Analyze Dweomer (where a ruby is part of the focus rather than a component, this is a bard spell and also Sor/Wizard)
Faerie Fire (Druid only)
Simulacrum (Sor/Wizard only)
Temporal Stasis (Sor/Wizard only)
Forcecage (Sor/Wizard only)

Rubies (plural) gets no hits that are spells.

[Schroeswald]

Hey has Qarr’s color been changed? It looks a bit lighter than before.

Also I feel like Qarr’s skin now matches the hands of the IFCC which is something.

[alwaysbebatman]

That's actually an interesting idea. Half-alive, possessed Thog!

Sounds like Gregor Clegane!


ETA: Wait, now that I think about it, that also sounds like Crystal. I think we've been there and done that and already have the T-Shirt

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I preferred the fiends having black hands, or regular stick-figure hands. The red hands are kind of scary, but just make me think of buzzards' necks for some reason.

Also, heh, I was just rereading the first appearance of the fiends, so it was a bit jarring to see them in the new style.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's actually an interesting idea. Half-alive, possessed Thog! Rich already did that with Crystal, though.


SRD list of spells with Ruby in the description:

Continual Flame (Cleric, Sorcerer/Wizard)

Analyze Dweomer (where a ruby is part of the focus rather than a component, this is a bard spell and also Sor/Wizard)

Faerie Fire (Druid only)

Simulacrum (Sor/Wizard only)

Temporal Stasis (Sor/Wizard only)

Forcecage (Sor/Wizard only)

Rubies (plural) gets no hits that are spells.Thanks for saving me the trouble of looking that up. :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

Her arrangement with them seems a heck of a lot more involved than just collecting a paycheck to me. But like I said, agree to disagree.
Okay.




"Wrong, I want Elan to come back and beat me. You still haven't said anything about how this harebrained non-plan will achieve that."
The same way getting on his ship was supposed to.




He sundered his weapon to keep him from interfering.
So?




You mean the same VL that didn't even know about the gates until Nale told them, even though Sabine had known for months? Some followers.
The IFCC did not need new followers until Nale and Z died and Thog was buried under rubble. And the Directors didn't know abput the Gates until Nale told Sabine either.
EDIT: Also isn't "in the dark about what's going on" how the Directors like their pawns? They've witheld intel with everybody we've seen them with.

Wait, how do we know
A) that they didn’t know about the world in the rift before Blackwing looked? Saying they don’t understand why the bird is just staring (in the middle of a really tense situation) does not necessarily imply that they don’t know, just that they think it isn’t as important at that moment as what’s going on outside.
Because even if they didn't think it was important they'd know it is surprising hence they'd understand Blackwing staring in confusion.

B) that (assuming they didn’t know of the world pre-Blackwing stare) they learned about the world through some new method, rather than simply aiming their scry-TV into the hole sometime after getting temporarily confused over Blackwing’s fascination with it? Or, possibly, they have a fiendish Teevo (which we know at least one has) recording everything V does, and some intern charged with looking over the tape saw Blackwing telling V exactly that.
I guess that's possible.



Also Re: ongoing discussion on the “vessel:” why do we think it’s a person? Given the prior conversation, it seems more likely to be a vessel for the artifact they’re discussing, and thus likely inanimate—a means of further transport for it, to safely move it from orange-fiend’s domain (I forget which one they were).
People are saying it's a person? I missed that. Anyway I don't think we have enough to speculate about the vessel for now (or the artifact for that matter).

[nolongeralurker]

And now to read through the thread in search of things to reply to... (and read all of it in order to make sure things weren't already replied to, and keep track of everything, which is a bit of an exercise in madness even with only five pages)


Hmm, does anyone recall what happened to the talisman Nale was after? Weren’t the Directors the one that tipped him about it in the first place? What was that chekov’s Gun longevity record again?
Wasn't Hilgya the one who was looking for something for someone? Didn't she discuss it with Durkon in the dungeon? (I haven't reread that part of the story in a while and don't really have time to do so right now, so if someone with a better memory/more time than me can provide links, it'd be greatly appreciated!!)


Regarding Artifacts, someone mentioned the one Nale & Co were after in the Dungeon of Dorukon. Sadly (or happily, your opinions may vary), the Talisman of Dorukon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html) is no longer available (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html).
Okay, so I guess it was Nale after all?? (Also, side note, but seeing Durkon and Hilgya happily holding hands while rereading #56 via your link made me both happy and sad, because they look so happy together, but then their relationship ended up having serious issues. Not trying to start another discussion about Hilgya, just thought I'd share.)


Given that letting Girard's gate get destroyed cost them one of their claims on V's soul, I'm curious to see what they would consider to be an actual cost.
Wait, was letting Girard's Gate get destroyed part of trying to get Hel to succeed?? (The plot is this comic is really complicated and I'm having trouble thinking through everything right now, sorry!)

I think they were referring to Hel's scheme. Since they weren't involved in it, they didn't have to expend any resources.
So Girard's Gate wasn't included in what they were mentioning? That's how I initially read it, too...


I don't think they even knew there was a fight until after the fact. Their TV was smashed, and right before they sent V back they assumed that all that was happening up top was just "more family angst." So they certainly had no dog in a fight they didn't know about.
But if Sabine had spoken more loudly to V and they had heard her then they might have figured out their was a fight and opposed Sabine helping V in it??


I'm sure someone already corrected this, but Xykon is basically Redcloak's shotgun and Redcloak is the Dark One's pawn and the real enemy is either the Snarl or the Dark One, or possibly both, depending on whether you are a God or not.

I thought the Giant had confirmed that the story would climax with the final Roy vs Xykon battle but I can’t find that quote.

Let’s christen the new thread: Summon Banana VI!
What about that quote about the Snarl being a maguffin, or the setting not being the antagonist, or something like that? I forget whether the Giant specified that the story was about the Order vs. Xykon or just that the main point wasn't the Snarl. I'm probably mixing up a couple different quotes in my head now, dang it.



As for the goal of the archfiends, I suspect destroying the world is not their goal but rather a means to achieve that goal. Perhaps they want to do something during the demolition that will result in the Snarl getting out and killing the gods?
Hmm, Outsiders (so the IFCC) wouldn't be destroyed by the Snarl even if the gods and mortals all were, would they? But don't they still want/need (at least some of) the gods to survive so they can recreate the world and mortals so that the fiends can get more souls? I don't know how D&D works.


As a quick little idea, maybe we're going to do a brief check-in on the various enemies of the Order before the book ends, much like we have in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
With us next flashing to maybe O-Chul and Lien, and then Team Evil(Xykon and company), before we cut to black.
Maybe, but if so I think it'll be mixed with scenes of the Order (perhaps as this strip was), because I think we'll get to see them leaving on the airship. Plus there's some unfinished business; mainly the issue of Sigdi's (potential) arm regeneration (and possibly also Durkon getting to drink dwarven beer, as someone mentioned in another thread - and maybe mentioning that someone's going to go look for that dwarf who got teleported away, though probably not).


Hey has Qarr’s color been changed? It looks a bit lighter than before.

Also I feel like Qarr’s skin now matches the hands of the IFCC which is something.
Wait... wait... what if one of them is secretly Qarr's father!! (yes, I'm only joking, I know they're not the same species... actually wait are they???)

[NobleCuriosity]

Because even if they didn't think it was important they'd know it is surprising hence they'd understand Blackwing staring in confusion.


Surprising enough to noticeably stop dead with a hostile epic lich breathing down Blackwing’s neck? I see your point (and think you’re most likely correct on them not knowing pre-stare), but I also won’t cry foul if Rich later reveals they did know at that point.




People are saying it's a person? I missed that. Anyway I don't think we have enough to speculate about the vessel for now.

Yeah, I’m inclined to agree. Literally the only thing we know for sure about the vessel is that Sabine is delivering it/them. Not a lot to go on.

[hroþila]

"Vessel" could be anything really but until right now it didn't occur to me that there's other possible senses aside from "person to be possessed by a demon", which readily suggested itself due to who's doing the talking here.

[Fyraltari]

"Vessel" could be anything really but until right now it didn't occur to me that there's other possible senses aside from "person to be possessed by a demon", which readily suggested itself due to who's doing the talking here.

That's how I initially read it too, but all the fiends we've seen can show up on the material plane in their own bodies and Sabine is bringing the vessel to the Lower Plane which would be kind of weird if the point was to take a fiend out of there.

[Jasdoif]

"Vessel" could be anything really but until right now it didn't occur to me that there's other possible senses aside from "person to be possessed by a demon", which readily suggested itself due to who's doing the talking here.They've used "vessel" to refer to a body before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), it'd make a lot of sense for Sabine to view finding a body as mixing business with pleasure, the next world could be Eberron and the IFCC's "artifact" is actually a quori spirit from the future that can't act on the material plane without a host (even if it isn't an "actual" Empty Vessel raised and trained for the purpose of being possessed)....Okay maybe the last part isn't serious.

[hroþila]

They've used "vessel" to refer to a body before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), it'd make a lot of sense for Sabine to view finding a body as mixing business with pleasure, the next world could be Eberron and the IFCC's "artifact" is actually a quori spirit from the future that can't act on the material plane without a host (even if it isn't an "actual" Empty Vessel raised and trained for the purpose of being possessed)....Okay maybe the last part isn't serious.
Oh, well spotted. So "vessel" can be simply a body, not a person.

This only makes Demon Thog even more inevitable.

[KatsOfLoathing]

That's how I initially read it too, but all the fiends we've seen can show up on the material plane in their own bodies and Sabine is bringing the vessel to the Lower Plane which would be kind of weird if the point was to take a fiend out of there.

While Sabine, Qarr, and a few other minor characters have appeared on the material plane, dialogue from the IFCC on this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) suggests to me that they're either incapable or unwilling to manifest physical bodies on the material plane. Might have something to do with the high rung they collectively occupy on the infernal scale? I've read debate before on how powerful the IFCC are, exactly, since high-tier demon/daemon/devil lords are a fundamental equivalent to gods in some D&D settings. (and Tiamat's deal with them suggests that they're strong enough that she, a full-fledged goddess, can't simply order them around at a whim.)

[Anarion]

I'm assuming these guys are setting up for next book. I look forward to more forcecages in the meantime though.

[TheBST]

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.

[Reboot]

While Sabine, Qarr, and a few other minor characters have appeared on the material plane, dialogue from the IFCC on this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) suggests to me that they're either incapable or unwilling to manifest physical bodies on the material plane.

According to them, they can "only act directly on the mortal plane when [they]'re making a deal".
Otherwise, they can only act through minions like Qarr or Sabine. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html )

[ShinigamiKenji]

Making my own attempt at a punchline... This conflict has almost as many sides as a d20.

As for the IFCC's plan, I'm willing to bet it has to do either with the world's process of creation, or the planet inside the Snarl's Domain (or whatever name of what Blackwing saw in the rift). I'm more inclined to the latter, because of memory wipe between worlds and the former could have been pulled off before. Maybe that planet was made by the Snarl using the 4 quiddities, and thus could not be destroyed by the 3 pantheons alone.


Oh, well spotted. So "vessel" can be simply a body, not a person.

This only makes Demon Thog even more inevitable.

Since we've seen the return of Hilgya, why not bringing back our least favorite paladin again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)?

[Bilbo Baggins]

As to the question of what artifact they refer to, I'm not necessarily throwing my vote this way, but has anyone considered the unholy chalice Quarr was trying to get V to mess with?

Qarr didn't start working for the IFCC until after V made the deal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html). Whatever the chalice is, it was something his previous supervisor was looking for, not the IFCC.

[KatsOfLoathing]

According to them, they can "only act directly on the mortal plane when [they]'re making a deal".
Otherwise, they can only act through minions like Qarr or Sabine. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html )

Ah, forgot about that, thank you.

Well, we've recently had a book-spanning story arc about a divine entity trying to loophole through metaphysical bureaucracy to advance her evil plan. Why not have three semi-divine entities trying something similar as a subplot for the next one?

[Cirin]

Wow, the comic updated while I was browing the site, how fortuitous :smalltongue: So, I guess next book will be all about the IFCC as the antagonist, and the final conflict with Team Evil will be further pushed back? I guess it makes sense, Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.

I have to wonder if Sabine's "time off" has something to do with her trying to find Nale's soul (it should probably have gone to one of the lower planes, right? He was pretty chummy with fiends, after all), or something.



I would imagine they're indifferent to the world being destroyed, but would really like Hel to lay waste to the Northern Pantheon.

Of course, they don't know that if the world gets blown up, their minds get erased by a collective action of the Gods.

Thor mentioned that the Gods wipe the memories of all Outsiders when they reset the world, because they found out it drives outsiders crazy otherwise.

The world getting blown up by Hel wouldn't have played out the way they thought it would have.

[Schroeswald]

Since we've seen the return of Hilgya, why not bringing back our least favorite paladin again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)?
Because she's long dead, her arc is ridiculously over and there is no reason to do so? IIRC The Giant has made it pretty clear her story is long over.

Though a personal theory of mine is that Redcloak's Niece will return as a paladin who will remind us of Ms. Miyazaki around her introduction (though less extreme and with a happier ending).

[Cirin]

A mysterious, unnamed, artifact?

Could it be the Ming (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)?

It's the only other Artifact that I can think of that's shown up so far in the comic, and Redcloak even called it "plot central" when it appeared.

Yeah, it was originally a throwaway gag. . .but so was the polearm shop guy. It was many years ago. . .but so was Hilgya.

(I know it's unlikely, but I thought I should point out there is another Artifact in the comic that was even called "plot central" when it appeared.

[Jasdoif]

A mysterious, unnamed, artifact?

Could it be the Ming (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)?I feel like it being named undercuts it being unnamed.

[137beth]

That's actually an interesting idea. Half-alive, possessed Thog!


I don't post often, but for this... :)

My guess is the vessel is Thog (or whatever is left of him).
The IFCC did mention him as one of their followers and Sabine could easily convince him of anything she wants, especially if she mentions it's revenge for Nale.

Not a bad idea, but I think Tarquin is more likely.

[Schroeswald]

My guess is Tarquin's gone and I doubt its Thog (though that does make sense), so I'll throw my weight behind, I dunno, lets say Redcloak's Niece (actually put my money on "We know so little about this artifact and vessel that speculating is a hopeless cause").

Oh and why are we debating whether Tarquin would want to, this is Sabine mixing business and pleasure, and she would get no pleasure from helping Tarquin achieve his goals, if he is this vessel it isn't voluntary and is her giving him a fate worse than death.

[Riftwolf]

Were V and Shirra sat like that for the whole of the IFCCs evil exposition? Awkward...

[Ruck]

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.


That makes a lot of sense to me. I haven't been trying to guess any of the questions raised by this comic because I don't think we have nearly enough information, but it would fit with their seeming desires.


A mysterious, unnamed, artifact?

Could it be the Ming (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)?

It's the only other Artifact that I can think of that's shown up so far in the comic, and Redcloak even called it "plot central" when it appeared.

Yeah, it was originally a throwaway gag. . .but so was the polearm shop guy. It was many years ago. . .but so was Hilgya.

(I know it's unlikely, but I thought I should point out there is another Artifact in the comic that was even called "plot central" when it appeared.


I feel like it being named undercuts it being unnamed.

The artifact being the Ming would have no bearing on the plot. Just like Geoff's son being polearm shop guy had no bearing on the plot.

[Schroeswald]

Were V and Shirra sat like that for the whole of the IFCCs evil exposition? Awkward...
It was awkward because they were waiting for Blackwing's punchline (and I'd bet V knew there was a cutaway to the IFCC but trusted it was just to tease their plan).

[Anansiil]

Roll up our sleeves and get our follower's hands dirty is such a great line!

This discussion is deeply disturbing, I'm intrigued and can't wait to find out how all of this is connected.

[Jasdoif]

The artifact being the Ming would have no bearing on the plot.That would depend on what the Ming does that makes it an artifact, wouldn't it? What if it's like the evil opposite of a holy grail? This is a silly place, after all.

[Peelee]

That would depend on what the Ming does that makes it an artifact, wouldn't it? What if it's like the evil opposite of a holy grail?

The Ming? It rings. And sometimes dings.

[Reboot]

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.


That does and doesn't make sense - to run with it, we need to assume the IFCC do not know what happens when pantheons fight. Which scares the gods enough that even the chaotic ones fall into line with the laws, some grumbling about 'dumb god rules' notwithstanding.

[Schroeswald]

My guess is that the Ming turns you invisible if part of the decorations of your house, but it also helps you get found by the black guards of the the arch fiend Seuron, who it also helps give his power, and thus the halfling are trying to destroy it to stop him from taking over the world

[Petrocorus]

Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).

The succubus polymorph ability can change race, sex, eye colour, haircut, height, weight, body type, gear, clothes, etc.

But somehow it cannot change skin and hair color?

I think you're reading WAYYY too much into this.

[Lheticus]

Oooooooookay there's a LOT to unpack here. The IFCC WANTS the OOTS world destroyed?

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if the friends have the same plan every world but always have their minds wiped so have the plan again “for the first time”. This is the first world lasting long enough for their plan to maybe succeed.

[Xel]

Hmm. Now I’m wondering if they’re setting something up for a TE pawn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html. What can demon roaches do with an unnamed artifact?

Also, I’d like to point out that there’s still wiggle-room in the IFCC statements for them to be against the destruction of the world. The gods didn’t actually stop Hel’s plan either, which could fit (although it seems less likely). Or maybe I’ve just done too many evil-genie deals in games...

[Breccia]

Oooooooookay there's a LOT to unpack here. The IFCC WANTS the OOTS world destroyed?

I'm not sure they do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). But then, they've been pretty hush-hush about what their plan actually is -- other than, they need conflict for it to work. Possibly as the goal itself, but probably as a distraction.

While the IFCC are LE, NE, and CE fiends working together, and they also seem to hint pretty heavily they're going to bring down the Gods of Good, for some reason I'm not sure their goal is so simple. They talk a lot in legalese and technicalities. If they just wanted the world destroyed, they probably could have worked with Hel to make that happen.

[jwhouk]

Could the rubies have something to do with the gate fixing spell - not that V would necessarily know this, but as a MacGuffin of sorts?

[deuterio12]

Yay the 3 f(r)iends are back!


I'm not sure they do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). But then, they've been pretty hush-hush about what their plan actually is -- other than, they need conflict for it to work. Possibly as the goal itself, but probably as a distraction.

While the IFCC are LE, NE, and CE fiends working together, and they also seem to hint pretty heavily they're going to bring down the Gods of Good, for some reason I'm not sure their goal is so simple. They talk a lot in legalese and technicalities. If they just wanted the world destroyed, they probably could have worked with Hel to make that happen.

Remember that Hel's plan wasn't just to destroy the world. That was just a step.

Hel's plan was to destroy the world and becoming the strongest god of the Northen Pantheon by sucking in millions of dwarf souls. An extra-evil goddess deciding how the next world runs. (Clearly dwarf souls are a lot more valuable than any other souls and they're usually so hard to kill that there's actually more living than dead, otherwise Hel's plan was doomed from the start because the other gods would've been cashing in the millions of other souls plus all previous dwarf souls Hel missed but nevermind those details, somehow it would've just worked).

So with extra-evil Hel positioned as a major deity, any good gods would find themselves in a pretty inferior position.

And hey Hel's bet is still up, so as long as the 3 f(r)iends manage to trigger the world destruction, she still gets to cash in those superior quality dwarven souls, except if getting killed by the gods blowing up the world counts as honorable too.

Wait, that's it!

1-Dwarf souls are the most valuable souls by far.
2-Hel wants dem delicious dwarf souls. This is, why take the bet in the first place that you can only collect (a fraction of) dwarf souls when you could be collecting souls from all mortal races unless dwarf souls are extra valuable?
3-But can't get any dwarf souls that die 'honorably'.
4-As shown by Thor and Loki, any death can be painted as 'honorable' because there's no god of honor in Oots to define it, it's just a word that means anything Thor and Loki wants it to mean when they want, so Hel will just starve to death for all they care even if the world was destroyed.
5-However Thor and Loki don't get to cash on those 'honorable' souls themselves.
6-Those souls going somewhere. Somewhere we can't see yet.
7-The 3 f(r)iends have been shown to be in the soul collection business too.
8-So clearly the 3 f(r)iends have set things up so they'll be the ones collecting the souls!
9-If the world gets destroyed, all 3 f(r)iends will collect dem delicious dwarf souls and be empowered with limitless divine power!
10-?
11-Slay the good gods.

[Ruck]

Hey has Qarr’s color been changed? It looks a bit lighter than before.

Also I feel like Qarr’s skin now matches the hands of the IFCC which is something.

The wings stood out to me as lighter than before, but a side-by-side comparison suggests they're not really.

[Peelee]

(Clearly dwarf souls are a lot more valuable than any other souls and they're usually so hard to kill that there's actually more living than dead, otherwise Hel's plan was doomed from the start because the other gods would've been cashing in the millions of other souls plus all previous dwarf souls Hel missed but nevermind those details, somehow it would've just worked).

Let's play with numbers.

Assume 2 million dwarves (just to keep the plural "millions"). 10 million humans, why not. Three million elves, and let's say twenty million various other races combined.

Hel gets all 2 million dwarves. Let's now assume the single absolute best possible case scenario against Hel, which is that literally every other soul on the planet goes to the Northern Pantheon. They still get divided up between 17 other gods. So, 33 million into 17 gods gets us 1.9 million souls per god*. Hel still comes out on top.

Now I just made up those numbers, but you know what? We don't know the population count of Stickworld, which means those could be totally valid. In fact, since we don't know the population count, you can just assume those numbers or less and it works perfectly without needing dwarven souls to be "more valuable.":smallamused:

*I didn't even know what the final count was going to be, so it's damned cool it worked out that way, I gotta say

[Emperor Time]

Even if the IFCC succeed in eliminating the good gods, it will probably cause all the neutral gods to stop being so neutral and possibly fight the evil gods to the death. And if that happens then there no gods left and maybe that is the true goal of the IFCC, to have a world where there no gods.

[Ron Miel]

Why are we discussing whether Sabine can change her skin color? Of course she can.



She's never done it in the comic, even when changing her skin colour would have improved her disguise (by making it even harder for the Order to detect her). It's possible that she can do it, but it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that she can't.

Sabine has changed into a facsimile of an Azurite woman with white face paint. The white appears to actually be part of her body, not make up that she has applied. If she can do that, she can make her skin any colour she wants.

Or if it is make up, which has been created by magic, then she can create make up to lighten or darken her skin to any colour she wants.

[flyinglemur]

(Clearly dwarf souls are a lot more valuable than any other souls

That's actually mostly true. Word of giant is that longer lived souls are more valuable due to the greater life experience.

Dwarves live way longer than most races barring elves, which only live on the western continent, and dragons, which are probably going to Tiamat.

[deuterio12]

That's actually mostly true. Word of giant is that longer lived souls are more valuable due to the greater life experience.

Dwarves live way longer than most races barring elves, which only live on the western continent, and dragons, which are probably going to Tiamat.

Yeah, the northern gods themselves plain care more about dwarves than any of the humies/halflings/orcs/gnomes/etc.

[fabiobeta]

Something to notice: Rubys are needed to cast Simulacrum too.

Something I don't remember: what did Sabine whisper to Varsuuvius last time he was prisoner of the Three? I don't remember if we ever discovered it.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Something to notice: Rubys are needed to cast Simulacrum too.

Something I don't remember: what did Sabine whisper to Varsuuvius last time he was prisoner of the Three? I don't remember if we ever discovered it.

It was something something Laurin pulls out the stops early and often. See comic where Laurin pops out of the airship.

[SlashDash]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?

[hroþila]

Sabine has changed into a facsimile of an Azurite woman with white face paint. The white appears to actually be part of her body, not make up that she has applied. If she can do that, she can make her skin any colour she wants.

Or if it is make up, which has been created by magic, then she can create make up to lighten or darken her skin to any colour she wants.
You could see her real skin tone on the contours of her face and on her bust. It was clearly make-up. No different from her conjuring up clothes as part of her disguise, but still make-up and easily identifiable by observers.

[Cerlis]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?
anything is possible but based on the narrative the writer is crafting i'd imagine the tarquinn thing will be resolved with

one of them saying out loud in the falling action that they are glad that Tarquin didnt show up in the middle of the fight especially since it woulda been dramatic, and it cuts to them hopelessly loss looking for some place to land in the mountains over fermament somewhere

or him doing the dramatic import mass army thing only to land on xykon's doorstep, get the whole army meteorswarmed and die pathetically (or at least not be allowed to enter the story visa vie plane shift or something)

just like how he wanted to end the linear guilds' involvement i thinkt he tarquinn thing was a self contained plot that set up several important bits and anything we see to resolve their story will be done so in the epilogue because as far as the protagonists count their stories ARE resolved and i think he's made it clear multiple times that its the protagonists not the mguffin that is the story

[woweedd]

The IFCC look even more sinister under the new art style.

[schmunzel]

Something about the particular emphasis placed on the rubies (even moreso than the usual, "OK nerds, I'm following the rules!"), juxtaposed with the IFCC's plans for V, just made me think there's some very particular foreshadowing happening here.

So I researched which OTHER spells require ruby or ruby dust for spell components, and one interesting possibility does stick out: Simulacrum!

I'm wondering if those rubies may thus turn be the key to providing a "suitable vessel," or perhaps even a means by which V can evade the terms of his contract.

I think those are both maybe silly ideas, but I'm still wondering if there isn't something more to these rubies than meets the eye.

Relevant concerning the Simulacrum in 2nd ed seems to be the limitation of the simulacrum not havong a soul of its own

It is in 2nd ed just a physical copy with partly the stats and abilities and levels that has no mind (!) of its own. Unless you cast reincarnation.
Whether that is sufficient to goat the devil /demons / fiends to mix up V's soul seems to be questionable to me.


sch

[HorizonWalker]

Relevant concerning the Simulacrum in 2nd ed seems to be the limitation of the simulacrum not havong a soul of its own

It is in 2nd ed just a physical copy with partly the stats and abilities and levels that has no mind (!) of its own. Unless you cast reincarnation.
Whether that is sufficient to goat the devil /demons / fiends to mix up V's soul seems to be questionable to me.


sch

While it would likely be very useful to have the Simulacrum take V's place in the Lower Planes, it would still be useful, and less of a cheat, to have the Simulacrum take V's place on the Prime Material Plane while V's soul is in the Lower Planes. Sure, a Wizard half of V's level wouldn't be as useful as V... but it's one more Wizard than the Order had before.

[Schroeswald]

The succubus polymorph ability can change race, sex, eye colour, haircut, height, weight, body type, gear, clothes, etc.

But somehow it cannot change skin and hair color?

I think you're reading WAYYY too much into this.
Every single time she has shapeshifted it’s been to someone with same skin tone, even the twist reveals kept her skin tone, both Dave and the blacksmith has her skin tone (and the real blacksmith didn’t! If you’re trying to disguise yourself why change the skin tone of the person you are impersonating), maybe to it turns out that she can be Shirra, but first off, that’s a weird twist because I presume the IFCC watch the Order already so there’s no extra information, and second off, it breaks the pre-established rules of her shapeshifting, making the twist likely land a bit flatter.

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?
I don’t think we are at all guaranteed to have a Tarquin return, in fact most people (including moi) who think we are guaranteed anything about Tarquin is that we never see him again and he dies offscreen.

And why are we discounting Sabine again? We know she will return and she still has her Evil opposite theme.

[gerryq]

[--]

Also Re: ongoing discussion on the “vessel:” why do we think it’s a person? Given the prior conversation, it seems more likely to be a vessel for the artifact they’re discussing, and thus likely inanimate—a means of further transport for it, to safely move it from orange-fiend’s domain (I forget which one they were).

If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

[drazen]

anything is possible but based on the narrative the writer is crafting i'd imagine the tarquinn thing will be resolved with

one of them saying out loud in the falling action that they are glad that Tarquin didnt show up in the middle of the fight especially since it woulda been dramatic, and it cuts to them hopelessly loss looking for some place to land in the mountains over fermament somewhere

or him doing the dramatic import mass army thing only to land on xykon's doorstep, get the whole army meteorswarmed and die pathetically (or at least not be allowed to enter the story visa vie plane shift or something)

just like how he wanted to end the linear guilds' involvement i thinkt he tarquinn thing was a self contained plot that set up several important bits and anything we see to resolve their story will be done so in the epilogue because as far as the protagonists count their stories ARE resolved and i think he's made it clear multiple times that its the protagonists not the mguffin that is the story

There's plenty of choices for a vessel for Sabine: Gaanji, Enor, Ian, Geoff, Thog (if alive), Hinjo (isn't Belkar supposed to save him again? Or is that long over?), Shoulder Pad Guy, Jacinda, Minrah (who just ran off panel and just so happens to insist on going with the Order)... Someone should start a pool, if they haven't already.

Somehow I suspect Tarquin will be observing somehow but not directly involved. Maybe by having someone help scry for him. His team does need a new evil cleric (the anonymous Cleric of Loki, perhaps?). But I'm guessing he won't be able to get involved directly -- the ending of the arc with him was just too perfect, and his teammates aren't going to want to get involved in all of this after seeing what got wasted on his "story nonsense."

[SlashDash]

And why are we discounting Sabine again? We know she will return and she still has her Evil opposite theme.

She'll obviously return if she's mentioned in the strip, but she doesn't really have anything against the OotS anymore. She even helped them in the desert.

I don't see Haley vs Sabine as much of a rivalry at this point.

[The MunchKING]

So it would have helped the fiends if Hel had managed to get the world destroyed? Are they really trying to destroy it themselves, in that case?

It certainly would have made "We got all the Good Dragons killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)" a lot easier than having to do it themselves... :smalltongue:


Specially if, as Thor mentioned, outsiders have been forced to lose memories over and over after every world ending event.

Presumably part of the effect of being mind-wiped is you forget you were mind-wiped. SO whatever plans they had could be not accounting for the fact that when the Gods get ready to make a new world, they will sweep through and mind-wipe all the Outsiders.



I'm wondering if those rubies may thus turn be the key to providing a "suitable vessel," or perhaps even a means by which V can evade the terms of his contract.

The contract seems to specifically target her soul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), so another body wouldn't really do much for her.


Re: The artifact, it can’t be anything that belongs to the main characters (vilains included) since Cedrik already has it. So it’s most likely a brand new doomsday device. Hmm, does anyone recall what happened to the talisman Nale was after?

It got shattered by Haley's arrow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html).


For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.


Oh, that's a GOOD one.


Something to notice: Rubys are needed to cast Simulacrum too.

Something I don't remember: what did Sabine whisper to Varsuuvius last time he was prisoner of the Three? I don't remember if we ever discovered it.


Tarquin and Laurin's tactical stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html)s.


While it would likely be very useful to have the Simulacrum take V's place in the Lower Planes, it would still be useful, and less of a cheat, to have the Simulacrum take V's place on the Prime Material Plane while V's soul is in the Lower Planes. Sure, a Wizard half of V's level wouldn't be as useful as V... but it's one more Wizard than the Order had before.

Oh... I looked it up and it's an illusion/ice thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) that acts under your orders. SO yeah, that might actually work as "some arcane power is better than NO Arcane power. I was thinking of Clone, where it was just another body.


If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

Also "innocent person to sacrifice and/or shove evil spirits into" is a classic fantasy/horror trope.

[Schroeswald]

She'll obviously return if she's mentioned in the strip, but she doesn't really have anything against the OotS anymore. She even helped them in the desert.

I don't see Haley vs Sabine as much of a rivalry at this point.
She'll likely help the IFCC and Oona doesn't have a rivalry with Belkar but you gave them as people to fight.

[Mic_128]

While it would likely be very useful to have the Simulacrum take V's place in the Lower Planes, it would still be useful, and less of a cheat, to have the Simulacrum take V's place on the Prime Material Plane while V's soul is in the Lower Planes. Sure, a Wizard half of V's level wouldn't be as useful as V... but it's one more Wizard than the Order had before.

The downside to that is she'd have to be able to cast it, instantly, as her soul is yanked away. I don't really see it as feasible, unless it's something V casts right before a fight - but then they could just yank V away as they're about to cast it.

[Alcore]

I'm already suspicious of the dwarf. (I don't know D&D can a succubus change size?)

1. Dwarfs are medium size, so even if she couldn't she could still impersonate a dwarf with no problems.

2. The target (or unique looking 'disguise') only needs to have the humanoid type. Size doesn't matter. I'll have to look it up but i think she can also gain a few physical properties of her assumed form.

[HorizonWalker]

The downside to that is she'd have to be able to cast it, instantly, as her soul is yanked away. I don't really see it as feasible, unless it's something V casts right before a fight - but then they could just yank V away as they're about to cast it.

Simulacrum has a casting time of twelve hours and a duration of instantaneous. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) It is not a spell you cast right before a fight. It is a spell you cast on Monday, after you clear your schedule, and then you maybe keep the Simulacrum around in a bag of holding or something.

Also, fun fact about Simulacra: They're not just made of rubies. They are also made of snow and ice! Y'know, the stuff that's absolutely everywhere in the Dwarven Lands and also the North Pole, and thus makes the spell somewhat thematically appropriate as well as genuinely useful.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tarqin being ignomiously defeated and killed by the resistance seems the fitting end for that NPC's arc.

"The Artifact" ~ "The Ming". I like it, but that may be too far of a reach.

The Vessel: Serini(if she's alive) or Julia seem likely in terms of being plot related. Thog? Not so much. (Granted, I personally do not care for the vessel to be Roy's sister, I think her role in the story was to go back to being a good student and getting her degree in whatever students at that Cliffport school/university get degress in, but I'm not writing the story).

[Jannoire]

It's obvious! The vessel can only be Redcloak's niece...

[danielxcutter]

As to the question of what artifact they refer to, I'm not necessarily throwing my vote this way, but has anyone considered the unholy chalice Quarr was trying to get V to mess with?

The only canon artifact I can think of and might work is the Planar Trestle from Exemplars of Evil, but somehow I doubt that.

[runeghost]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?


"Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous. "

You mean, like a revealingly-clad catgirl assassin on a flying carpet?

[TheNecrocomicon]

I guess this strip just goes to follow the apparent dramatic convention that things always get better and better for the villains (and conversely that much worse for the heroes) all the way until right before the very end.

Also, the IFCC only bothering to get their "followers" dirty and/or dead, and not themselves, is self-centred Evil to a tee.


If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

This. Count me as on board with those thinking that Tarquin seems to be the most likely choice. We might cut back to him, on the ropes against this new Western Continent resistance movement, possibly cornered and about to be be finished off ... then Sabine offers him a deal of some sort, vaguely worded enough that she is then able to take him away for use as the IFCC's ominously promised "vessel".

Or, I have a more horrifying thought. Minrah just wandered off for personal purposes while the Order carouses. What if Sabine takes the form of one of her family members -- or worse, has been doing so for a while -- and takes this opportunity to abscond with her to the Lower Planes?

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, I have a more horrifying thought. Minrah just wandered off for personal purposes while the Order carouses. What if Sabine takes the form of one of her family members -- or worse, has been doing so for a while -- and takes this opportunity to abscond with her to the Lower Planes? That would stink. :smallfrown: I hope that isn't where Giant goes with this.

Glad to see someone knows Simulacrum 3.x well enough to confirm my suspicion that it needs ice, and so going to the Northern Pole where there is much ice sets up a chance for V to create on .... maybe ...

Took a nice slow read with a little magnification; really like what the new art style has done for the three fiends.

[Riftwolf]

The succubus polymorph ability can change race, sex, eye colour, haircut, height, weight, body type, gear, clothes, etc.

But somehow it cannot change skin and hair color?

I think you're reading WAYYY too much into this.

She can, but she chooses not to.

[Schroeswald]

"Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous. "

You mean, like a revealingly-clad catgirl assassin on a flying carpet?

And now I remember what I forgot to put in my response: The airborne tramp thing is a) a joke from years ago, and b) The Giant is on the record regretting that stuff and actively de-sexed Laurin because of it, and then the forum went and made a thread calling her one of the airborne tramps and made theories about how Laurin’s favor involves marriage and/or sex with Tarquin.

So no, she will not be fighting any more flying women who are sexually promiscuous (besides possibly Sabine).

[Son of A Lich!]

Now that Greg has been taken care of, it seems like The Gate is the last thing to resolve (Or, at least, the next thing).

I wonder, sincerely, if the Vessel or artifact is Xykon's Phylactery. Seems like a good way to get a Lich off his lazy bones and moving. And he has talked about avoiding the fires down below before.

A part of me is concerned that Hilga will join the Legion of Doom and take over now that Greg is gone. Wealth, power, luxury and safety for Kudzu in exchange for her magical services and they're unexpected vacancy of high level clerics (And being a pawn but whatever).

Eh, I dunno, but I'm intrigued.

[Mad Humanist]

That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).


This may be possible. But may be also you are also overthinking it. The joke is that both that the IFCC and V/Blackwing have expendible resources. In one case the Linear Guild and in the other magical components. Also we were set up to expect an IFCC/V interaction but did not get one. The strip advanced the plot on two fronts with a large dose of foreshadowing from the IFCC. The punchline was a joke where Blackwing claimed not have a joke. There was a lot in that strip. Does it really require the Dwarf is Sabine?

[SlashDash]

She'll likely help the IFCC and Oona doesn't have a rivalry with Belkar but you gave them as people to fight.
Sure, it's even possible she'll get someone new entirely.
I'm just saying from people we currently have, her biggest beef is with Myron.




Also, the IFCC only bothering to get their "followers" dirty and/or dead, and not themselves, is self-centred Evil to a tee.
One of them did went up face to face with Tiamat and got scorched for it.


And now I remember what I forgot to put in my response: The airborne tramp thing is a) a joke from years ago
No kidding... The comment you're referring to was also said as a joke :smallamused:


Now that Greg has been taken care of, it seems like The Gate is the last thing to resolve (Or, at least, the next thing).

Except that the vampires aren't done yet.
We only read through multiple strips now telling us that Curly is still alive.
Hel will likely try and do something else for the next book.



I wonder, sincerely, if the Vessel or artifact is Xykon's Phylactery. Seems like a good way to get a Lich off his lazy bones and moving. And he has talked about avoiding the fires down below before.

The one that Red Cloak holds? Not bloody likely and surely it's not something that the author will just say they got off screen.



A part of me is concerned that Hilga will join the Legion of Doom and take over now that Greg is gone. Wealth, power, luxury and safety for Kudzu in exchange for her magical services and they're unexpected vacancy of high level clerics (And being a pawn but whatever).

Eh, I dunno, but I'm intrigued.
That kind of defeats the perfect family portrait we just got with Durkon.
I wouldn't even say it's unlikely, it's flat out impossible to happen.
That entire conversation was all about getting Hilga out of the story.

[jwhouk]

I'm starting to think that what will happen is all of the various "sides" will end up at Kraagor's Gate at the same time (or nearly the same time).

And the last book of the OOTS series will be named "The Last Dungeon Crawl".

[Elkad]

SRD list of spells with Ruby in the description:

Continual Flame (Cleric, Sorcerer/Wizard)
Analyze Dweomer (where a ruby is part of the focus rather than a component, this is a bard spell and also Sor/Wizard)
Faerie Fire (Druid only)
Simulacrum (Sor/Wizard only)
Temporal Stasis (Sor/Wizard only)
Forcecage (Sor/Wizard only)

Rubies (plural) gets no hits that are spells.

You can add to that list, from various other books.

Antimagic Ray - 100gp worth
Bladebane (makes weapon a Bane weapon to a selected creature type) - 500gp worth
Bloodstar - (Conjuration[creation], useless to V) - 30gp ruby as focus
Firespiders (Conjuration[summoning]) - summons 240 spider-like fire elementals - 500gp worth.
Night's Mantle - sunlight shielding spell for vamps/etc - 500gp worth
Ruby Ray of Reversal - springs traps, opens forcecages, etc - 500gp focus
Soul's Treasure Lost - destroys most valuable (non-artifact) item in target's posession. - 500gp worth
Suffer the Flesh - take damage to raise your caster level for 1 round. - 250gp worth
Stone Walk (conjuration[teleportation]). - 2500gp worth

[Nightcanon]

Oooooooookay there's a LOT to unpack here. The IFCC WANTS the OOTS world destroyed?

I guess it opens up opportunities vis a vis the harvesting and selling of souls? Assuming that the lower planes survive, of course.
Doubtless there we be exposition in due course.

[Sir_Norbert]

I'm starting to think that what will happen is all of the various "sides" will end up at Kraagor's Gate at the same time (or nearly the same time).

Well, not all of them. The Linear Guild were definitely one of the sides at the time the "nine sides" remark was made, but not any more. Hel's side is presumably also dropping out of the story now.

[Mad Humanist]

Okay I have a wild throw away theory of my own.

The IFCC have only just learned of the million previous worlds and Hel's plan and its failure by listening in on V's conversations. They can see how it could further their plans but only if they can avoid having their minds wiped. So they have developed an artefact that will allow them to escape the mind wipe, by taking possession of a mortal's body (the "vessel") and placing the mortal on the outer planes. However this gives them a bonus that they can create a super being, who will "get his hands dirty". The "fireworks" is a euphemism for all the "The Exorcist" special effects we are going to be treated to.

[The MunchKING]

What if they lied about the soul binding thing being a once-a-millennia power, and they intend to bind themselves to the vessel in a way that has already been explained to the audience?

[bunsen_h]

Can anyone estimate just how much GPs worth of Rubies V just got from Durkon's extended family?Zero GP. Vaarsuvius didn't pay for them. Value is solely dependent on what you pay. If you pay 25,000GP for a diamond the size of a pinhead, that is then a 25,000GP diamond for the purposes of spell casting. Rich lampooned this at the beginning of the last book.

Doesn't that mean that these rubies won't work for any spell that requires that some value of rubies be expended? The spell would fizzle, or something?

EDIT: "Haley! Quickly! I must sell you these rubies for, say, 25,000 GP, on credit. And then you sell them back to me. Yes, you may make a profit on the transaction!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

By RAW? *shrugs, then nods* By RAI? No, it should work. But by RAG, it'll be whatever works for the story, so I doubt it'll come up.

[Schroeswald]

EDIT: "Haley! Quickly! I must sell you these rubies for, say, 25,000 GP, on credit. And then you sell them back to me. Yes, you may make a profit on the transaction!"
When I read the first strip about the value of rubies I thought that would be a great way to have a lot more valuable rubies or whatever you want, give/sell them to your party and sell them for all your money so they can just give it back to you later.

[The MunchKING]

Well logically it could also be seen as a payment for the services to Dwarf people. So whatever she thinks her powers are worth.

Which means even an atom of the rubies might be worth enough GP to cast it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html).

[bunsen_h]

By RAW? *shrugs, then nods* By RAI? No, it should work. But by RAG, it'll be whatever works for the story, so I doubt it'll come up.

It's a reason -- explicitly validated in the strip -- for a spell to fail to work at a crucial moment.

EDIT: And it explains that rather weird interaction in this page.

[Fyraltari]

by RAG

Rules As Garbled?

[locksmith of lo]

my random stab in the dark with who the vessal would be ian starshine, haley's dad. just because it would be an interesting plot twist for sabine to go and seduce him and and make him an unwilling participant in further driving the plot. :smallwink:

[NobleCuriosity]

If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

Why? I can kind of see the “mixing business and pleasure” line implying it kind of, but I don’t really see anything confirming the vessel must be a person. Succubi can still fetch things (and a succubus ROGUE can fetch/steal even more kinds of things), and The Giant has an incentive to have her do it rather than some other random minion (informing us of her status).

That they’ve referred to an empty body as a vessel before is definitely points in favor of it being a person, but...

For one, referring to a person as a vessel for an artifact is...odd. I’d have expected “bearer” if they kept their mind and “host” if they didn’t. For “vessel” to make any sense the artifact needs to be in charge somehow, but then all the talk of “firing it up” seems weird—not the kind of language you typically use for sentient artifacts.

There’s the issue that none of the suggested people make much sense to me. If it isn’t somebody we’ve met, then there’s not much point to it being a person in the first place. If it is, then who? It has to be someone Sabine could return with to HELL (the Abyss?) by persuasion or by force. Her persuasion options are limited for anyone we know—perhaps she could trick Tarquin (and that explains the pleasure line), but his presence at the finale seems highly counter to the storyline with Ian and the Free City of Doom Captain, as well as Elan’s ending with him. She could certainly get Thog, but...narratively, why (and why is that a pleasure for her)? He already had his big showdown with Roy, and she wouldn’t enjoy suckering him as far as I know.

....ooh, wait, what about Laurin? She was the one who disintegrated Nale (Hence Sabine being upset with her), and was last seen blankly stunned by the Snarl (possibly explaining how Sabine could defeat her or fake her out, if that lasted for a while). She has a slight unresolved conflict with V (“You can shove your false respect”), appropriate for an IFCC interaction. That said, it still doesn’t feel quite right to me. She’s a relatively new addition, she didn’t really care when the Oots ran off. What real emotional impact could she have on the Oots at this point, reappearing as a vessel? She can verify that the Snarl is real and dangerous, but Thor kind of already did that.

Eh. I dunno. Maybe Sabine is just stealing an airship or something. I understand why it’s fun to speculate on the person angle though.

[D.One]

By RAW? *shrugs, then nods* By RAI? No, it should work. But by RAG, it'll be whatever works for the story, so I doubt it'll come up.


Rules As Garbled?

I got myself thinking what the home sweet home of Qarr was RAG. Rule As Gamemastered? Rule As Got? Rule As Goth? Rule As Gothan? Rule As Goku? Rule As Godzilla?

I conclude it must something in the lines of Rule As Giant.

[The MunchKING]

Rules As Garbled?

Rules According to Garfield.

What Richard Garfield, creator of Magic the Gathering is doing ruling on D&D is left as an exercise for the reader.

[D.One]

Rules According to Garfield.

What Richard Garfield, creator of Magic the Gathering is doing ruling on D&D is left as an exercise for the reader.

That Garfield? Oh, ok. I thought of another one, and that would explain the importance of Mr. Scruffy, even though I've yet to see Mount Lasagna appear in the strip.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Sure, it's even possible she'll get someone new entirely.
One of them did went up face to face with Tiamat and got scorched for it.

No, she called them and complained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html), and being a deity, her power was sufficient to burn one of them through the phone lines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).


What if they lied about the soul binding thing being a once-a-millennia power, and they intend to bind themselves to the vessel in a way that has already been explained to the audience?

They would have to expand and strengthen the bond though -- in Vaarsuvius' case, the host was in control of the souls and their capabilities, as long as they maintained concentration. The trio binding themselves to and dominating an unwilling host would take a greater degree of interference (but sure, since they're basically demigods, it seems to me they're capable of it).


my random stab in the dark with who the vessal would be ian starshine, haley's dad. just because it would be an interesting plot twist for sabine to go and seduce him and and make him an unwilling participant in further driving the plot. :smallwink:

I doubt it, he's a little too paranoid for even a succubus to fool. That, and I seem to recall him saying that he tripped a trap some time ago that castrated him, so it doesn't seem he'd be interested in Sabine's hypothetical advances.

[Jasdoif]

I thought of another one, and that would explain the importance of Mr. Scruffy, even though I've yet to see Mount Lasagna appear in the strip.I was thinking of Orange Beard the pirate captain and his first mate, Odie the Stupid.

[D.One]

I doubt it, he's a little too paranoid for even a succubus to fool.

Thinking of it, and in Shojo's remark about having taken Improved Paranoia, they could form a Paranoid Group if they ever met...


I was thinking of Orange Beard the pirate captain and his first mate, Odie the Stupid.

Riding the seas in their boat, The Arbuckle. That's the one.

[NobleCuriosity]

There's plenty of choices for a vessel for Sabine: Gaanji, Enor, Ian, Geoff, Thog (if alive), Hinjo (isn't Belkar supposed to save him again? Or is that long over?), Shoulder Pad Guy, Jacinda, Minrah (who just ran off panel and just so happens to insist on going with the Order)... Someone should start a pool, if they haven't already.

That bit with Belkar is a really good point, if he’s still due. I can’t think of a second time Belkar saved Hinjo (directly anyway). How/why else is he going to wind up at the North Pole in time for Belkar to do so before kicking the bucket? Am I missing something there?

Don’t really see why Sabine would enjoy fetching him though. He wasn’t even responsible for her imprisonment back at Azure City.

[The MunchKING]

That Garfield? Oh, ok. I thought of another one, and that would explain the importance of Mr. Scruffy, even though I've yet to see Mount Lasagna appear in the strip.

The president? He died long before D&D was a thing.

[runeghost]

The president? He died long before D&D was a thing.

About thirty-two years or so before a certain science-fiction author invented tabletop gaming, I believe.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Rules As Garbled?


I got myself thinking what the home sweet home of Qarr was RAG. Rule As Gamemastered? Rule As Got? Rule As Goth? Rule As Gothan? Rule As Goku? Rule As Godzilla?

I conclude it must something in the lines of Rule As Giant.

Wow, it's been awhile. I think we used the acronym for Rules Accepted (by) Giant.

[Schroeswald]

About thirty-two years or so before a certain science-fiction author invented tabletop gaming, I believe.
What? I have no knowledge of anything related to tabletop gaming in 1913 (32 years after president Garfield's death, and neither does Google), and I can't find any founder of this genre who qualifies as a sci-fi author.

[Lamech]

That cut away's timing seems suspiciously ominous.

[bunsen_h]

Wow, it's been awhile. I think we used the acronym for Rules Accepted (by) Giant.

I don't suppose there's a list of the acronyms used in these forums? I've had to do some searching and guessing from time to time.

[Reboot]

Zero GP. Vaarsuvius didn't pay for them. Value is solely dependent on what you pay. If you pay 25,000GP for a diamond the size of a pinhead, that is then a 25,000GP diamond for the purposes of spell casting. Rich lampooned this at the beginning of the last book.

Shirra is recording a book value loss for them. Moreover, since her company doesn't mine rubies, presumably she paid (or traded) for them.

Funnily enough, her giving them to V for free sidesteps the issue. The value is what *she* records (or paid) for them. If, OTOH, she traded them to V for "mates' rates", THAT would be the value and they'd be useless

[Jasdoif]

I don't suppose there's a list of the acronyms used in these forums? I've had to do some searching and guessing from time to time.The official-y thread is rather outdated, but should be mostly adequate around here since the comic is (most strongly resembling) D&D 3.5 . It is, however, missing RAI (Rules As Intended, ostensibly how the designers intended the rules to be interrupted; nearly always used in contrast to RAW (Rules As Written, what a strict/literal reading of rule text would mean)).

And I don't recall seeing "RAG" before, and thought it was supposed to be figured out from the context....

[jwhouk]

RAG = WOG, from how I'd understand it.

[Gnoman]

What? I have no knowledge of anything related to tabletop gaming in 1913 (32 years after president Garfield's death, and neither does Google), and I can't find any founder of this genre who qualifies as a sci-fi author.

Herbert George Wells published a book called Little Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars) in 1913, which contained simple wargaming rules for toy soldiers. This is considered to be the first commercial "table"top (it was actually intended to be played on the floor, but whatever) wargame, as the Prussian Kriegsspiel games of the 19th century were intended for purely military use.

[Petrocorus]

it breaks the pre-established rules of her shapeshifting, making the twist likely land a bit flatter.


It's not a pre-established rule if it's not established as a rule.
The fact she's never done it, apparently, does not mean she cannot do it.
Both the 3.5 rules and the simple logic say she should be able to change her skin color if she wants to.

I've honestly never paid attention to this before you mentioned it.


She can, but she chooses not to.
This is indeed exactly what we have seen so far.

[Dausuul]

Re: The artifact, it can’t be anything that belongs to the main characters (vilains included) since Cedrik already has it. So it’s most likely a brand new doomsday device. Hmm, does anyone recall what happened to the talisman Nale was after? Weren’t the Directors the one that tipped him about it in the first place?
The talisman was shattered. However, if it's a proper artifact, it can't be permanently destroyed without a special procedure of some kind. And nobody picked up the pieces; the Directors could have retrieved them and reassembled them.

I have been wondering for a while if the Monster in the Darkness was from an older edition of D&D. If so, and the Directors did salvage Dorukan's Talisman, it might become their most potent weapon.

[Ron Miel]

I doubt it, he's a little too paranoid for even a succubus to fool. That, and I seem to recall him saying that he tripped a trap some time ago that castrated him, so it doesn't seem he'd be interested in Sabine's hypothetical advances.


Sterilised, not castrated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

[Particle_Man]

Shirra is recording a book value loss for them. Moreover, since her company doesn't mine rubies, presumably she paid (or traded) for them.

Funnily enough, her giving them to V for free sidesteps the issue. The value is what *she* records (or paid) for them. If, OTOH, she traded them to V for "mates' rates", THAT would be the value and they'd be useless

Shirra is probably grateful for the chance to indirectly (and of course only partially) pay back Durkon's mom by helping Durkon's friend, since getting Durkon's mom to accept wealth directly is like pulling teeth.

[Jannoire]

I doubt it, he's a little too paranoid for even a succubus to fool. That, and I seem to recall him saying that he tripped a trap some time ago that castrated him, so it doesn't seem he'd be interested in Sabine's hypothetical advances.

Just because you're shooting blanks, doesn't mean you don't enjoy shooting

[hamishspence]

The talisman was shattered. However, if it's a proper artifact, it can't be permanently destroyed without a special procedure of some kind. And nobody picked up the pieces; the Directors could have retrieved them and reassembled them.


That only applies to Major artifacts. Minor artifacts are more easily destroyable.

[Riftwolf]

Funny but probably not going to happen: IFCC pull Vs soul just to make an awkward pause 3 minutes long.

[Quartz]

Does this strip tell us that Nero & co are not affected by the memory wipe?

[Skull the Troll]

Does this strip tell us that Nero & co are not affected by the memory wipe?

They said all of those got reabsorbed into their planes, but I'm assuming these three have been told what the deal is by their god(s). Theres a bit of a mish mash of different theological tropes going on here. Hel's hell doesn't seem to be the same as the one the directors live in. But there are lots of planes, so its not really an issue. The point is they want more worlds built around fighting and conflict forever. Its a wonderful subversion for me. When the had that panel when they were tempting Varsuvius I thought they wanted the world to not be destroyed because they wanted the conflict of this world to go on, but now that we know that this might all get fixed, it changes it entirely.