Heavy Armor Master Feat: Good for Tank or go for other feats?

[Stone-Ears]

Hey y'all,

GOAL: Creating a Tanky VHuman Sword and Board Fighter for future campaigns
Need Help on: First Level Feat

So I am trying to create a Sword and Board fighter that will be a very defensive and tanky type.

I am not interested in the Polearm Master/Sentinel combo.

I will not be taking Polearm Master, ever.

Sentinel is an option.

I just want to know if taking the Heavy Armor master feat will be worth it or if it is too dependent on the DM liking to run hordes to be useful. Are there better feats for a prospective tank than Heavy Armor Master at 1st level? If so, what are they?

[Misterwhisper]

Unless you are planning to get attacked by the weenie horde, take something else.

It does not help against magic at all, which is the much bigger concern, or against magic weapons, which will be the norm for the big bad evil guy anyway.

It is great for level like 1-4.

If you can swap it out at level 4 I would take it.

Shield Master or Sentinel would be better.

Maybe even Mobile, depending on how you are planning things.

Have you thought about possible playing a Warforged Juggernaut?

Built in great armor that scales with level and you are always alert and ready.

[Yunru]

Sentinel first, or you're no tank.

[Protolisk]

Sentinel first, or you're no tank.

This shows the exact purpose of what a tank does.

A tank should act as either a bulldozer, cutting their way yhrough enemy tanks, or act as a large distraction, maintaining the aggro on themselves.

Heavy armor master does make you last longer in combat, true. But only against many, many small attacks. Once the damage per attack is 15 to 20, reducing it to 12-17 doesn't feel as noticeable. Additionally, nothing is making the enemy actually fight YOU. They could just as easily go around you.

This is why Sentinel works. You get in close to an enemy, and if they try to escape or go around you, you force them not to. Maintaining their attention on you instead of the squishier allies. You also can punish the attacker if you are next to your ally. Making them direct their attention towards you, or feel your wrath.

HAM works very well at low levels, when attacks of 5-8 become 2-5. After that, it feels like drops in a bucket for little other gain. Especially when magic and magic weapons come out, where it serves no purpose.

At that point, Shield Master becomes a better idea. Helps you knock people over (helping your melee allies) and helps you for magic dex saves. It shores up your defense against magic in a way HAM never can. Reducing a 8d6 Fireball down to nothing is a lot better than reducing a myltiattack worth of sword slashs by just 3 each, so maybe 12 if they are particularly fierce.

[Trandir]

I can't help very much but here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600863-Optimisation-sword-and-board-melee) you might find some help for a sword and board PC.

Also don't discard PAM you can do a spear and shield build that it's even better than sword and board.

[stoutstien]

It not the best feat but magical attacks are actually not all that common for NPCs to have so even later on it's useful.
have others have mentioned the more enemies that are actually attacking you the better it is.
A good question to ask is are you having trouble maintaining enemies focus on yourself or surviving the focus?

It may not be the best choice but it's not a bad one. Especially if you're grabbing it at level 1. For those first five or so levels you're practically doubling your survivability.

[JellyPooga]

I used to think Heavy Armour Master was a bit useless; deducting a minor amount of damage from incoming non-magical physical attacks seemed somewhat lacklustre to me...until I realised that A) many monsters lack magical attacks and B) many foes don't have attacks that deal huge amounts of damage. This isn't to say there aren't creatures that deal high damage single attacks, of course, but even against a foe dealing 30pts of damage per hit, HAM is reducing that by 10%...that's a significant reduction. That percentage increases the lower the damage your foes are dealing. So yeah, HAM is technically better the lower the tier of play you're playing, but by no means is it useless at even the highest tiers of play.

I find it best when paired with abilities that reduce non-physical and/or magical damage; abilities like Evasion or the Ancient Paladins Aura of Warding; or combined with further resistance to physical damage (e.g. Uncanny Dodge) it can significantly increase your effective HP pool.

[Zuras]

Whether Heavy Armor Master is worthwhile revolves around what enemies you will be fighting and how long you will spend at lower levels.

It is bad in a campaign like Storm King's Thunder (even Hill Giants average 18 damage/attack) but great in something like Red Hand of Doom against hordes.

On average, other feats are better, but if your DM casually mentions how excited they are about their new dice rolling app or asks you where the horde rules are in the DMG, you should consider it.

[Yunru]

It is bad in a campaign like Storm King's Thunder (even Hill Giants average 18 damage/attack) but great in something like Red Hand of Doom against hordes.
A 16(.66666...)% reduction is bad? O.o

[Zuras]

It is bad in a campaign like Storm King's Thunder (even Hill Giants average 18 damage/attack) but great in something like Red Hand of Doom against hordes.


A 16(.66666...)% reduction is bad? O.o

Yes. Not bad as compared to nothing, but bad as compared to a different feat or an ASI.

A 1/6 reduction in damage at that level means at most it takes one additional attack to bring you down, since you’re probably standing up to at most seven hits anyway.

It’s fine if you have an odd strength, or are doing tricks (armor of Agathys!) but otherwise +2 to Con, Resilient: Wisdom, or Inspiring Leader (if you’re a Paladin) give more defensive bang for your buck.

[Warlush]

Reducing a 8d6 Fireball down to nothing is a lot better than reducing a myltiattack worth of sword slashs by just 3 each, so maybe 12 if they are particularly fierce.

I hate to be that guy, but Sheild Master only grants the bonus and evasion to affects targeting only you. Not an AoE.

[MaxWilson]

This shows the exact purpose of what a tank does.

A tank should act as either a bulldozer, cutting their way yhrough enemy tanks, or act as a large distraction, maintaining the aggro on themselves.

Heavy armor master does make you last longer in combat, true. But only against many, many small attacks. Once the damage per attack is 15 to 20, reducing it to 12-17 doesn't feel as noticeable. Additionally, nothing is making the enemy actually fight YOU. They could just as easily go around you.

This is why Sentinel works. You get in close to an enemy, and if they try to escape or go around you, you force them not to. Maintaining their attention on you instead of the squishier allies. You also can punish the attacker if you are next to your ally. Making them direct their attention towards you, or feel your wrath.

HAM works very well at low levels, when attacks of 5-8 become 2-5. After that, it feels like drops in a bucket for little other gain. Especially when magic and magic weapons come out, where it serves no purpose.

Sentinel also fails at high level against many small attacks. Sure, maybe you block one orc with your reaction, but the other 20 orcs bypass you and hit the squishies.

[Zuras]

Sentinel also fails at high level against many small attacks. Sure, maybe you block one orc with your reaction, but the other 20 orcs bypass you and hit the squishies.

At high level if the squishies let 20 orcs reach them alive they aren’t doing their job anyway. If a tank is looking to stop 20 orcs they should be playing a Cleric and using Spirit Guardians. A normal mook swarm in higher level play is usually CR 3 to 6, with an attack bonus of +6 or +7. Think Vampire Spawn, Lesser Demons/Devils, Drow Elite Warriors, etc.

AC tanking is usually much more effective in those cases than HP tanking, IME. The difference between AC 15 and AC 17 is quite noticeable in those scenarios. Once I learned to switch to a shield vs swarms my 10th levelBarbarian started lasting a lot longer.

[MaxWilson]

At high level if the squishies let 20 orcs reach them alive they aren’t doing their job anyway. If a tank is looking to stop 20 orcs they should be playing a Cleric and using Spirit Guardians. A normal mook swarm in higher level play is usually CR 3 to 6, with an attack bonus of +6 or +7. Think Vampire Spawn, Lesser Demons/Devils, Drow Elite Warriors, etc.

AC tanking is usually much more effective in those cases than HP tanking, IME. The difference between AC 15 and AC 17 is quite noticeable in those scenarios. Once I learned to switch to a shield vs swarms my 10th levelBarbarian started lasting a lot longer.

I agree with you that AC is often better than HP, but the point is that Sentinel doesn't do much compared to actual crowd control. You can have a perfectly decent HAM tank who tanks about as well as a Sentinel tank, but his job is mostly just to attract attention and be the first guy through dangerous doors. There's nothing he can do that can actually force bad guys to exclusively target him.

Therefore, the real 5E solution is not to have any squishies in the party. Everybody should have some form of excellent defense, whether that is high AC + Shield or Mobile feat or PAM/Sentinel combo or Phantom Steed/Find Steed + Mounted Combatant or Cunning Action + Stealth Expertise + Skulker.

[Composer99]

I hate to be that guy, but Sheild Master only grants the bonus and evasion to affects targeting only you. Not an AoE.


Err... about that.



[...]
- If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing the your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

[stoutstien]

Hey y'all,

GOAL: Creating a Tanky VHuman Sword and Board Fighter for future campaigns
Need Help on: First Level Feat

So I am trying to create a Sword and Board fighter that will be a very defensive and tanky type.

I am not interested in the Polearm Master/Sentinel combo.

I will not be taking Polearm Master, ever.

Sentinel is an option.

I just want to know if taking the Heavy Armor master feat will be worth it or if it is too dependent on the DM liking to run hordes to be useful. Are there better feats for a prospective tank than Heavy Armor Master at 1st level? If so, what are they?

Another thought. Cavalier has a bunch of built in ways to make you a morec
tempting target Compared to some of the other choices so I think the feats you take should probably take what subclass you are looking at.

[Composer99]

Hey y'all,

GOAL: Creating a Tanky VHuman Sword and Board Fighter for future campaigns
Need Help on: First Level Feat

So I am trying to create a Sword and Board fighter that will be a very defensive and tanky type.

I am not interested in the Polearm Master/Sentinel combo.

I will not be taking Polearm Master, ever.

Sentinel is an option.

I just want to know if taking the Heavy Armor master feat will be worth it or if it is too dependent on the DM liking to run hordes to be useful. Are there better feats for a prospective tank than Heavy Armor Master at 1st level? If so, what are they?

Sentinel is IMO best for actually tanking in the RPG sense. Heavy Armour Master and/or Shield Master are best for feeling like a tank. GWM or PAM are best for acting like a tank.

[stoutstien]

I hate to be that guy, but Sheild Master only grants the bonus and evasion to affects targeting only you. Not an AoE.

The single target requirement is only for the adding shield AC to the save but the pseudo evasion doesn't.

There's also the question if you're the only one in the targeted AOE area is it now single Target?

[Protolisk]

I hate to be that guy, but Sheild Master only grants the bonus and evasion to affects targeting only you. Not an AoE.

Aw dang it. I read it as "you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you", not "against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you." Whoops, my bad.

However, I am seeing no such wording on the the third benefit of Shield Master, so I expect it does reduce damage to 0 if you succeed even in AoEs. Not as good as Evasion, per se, but still a good defensive option.

[brainface]

Are you getting anything out of the +1 bonus to strength? That may be a very relevant factor.

[Garimeth]

Hey y'all,

GOAL: Creating a Tanky VHuman Sword and Board Fighter for future campaigns
Need Help on: First Level Feat

So I am trying to create a Sword and Board fighter that will be a very defensive and tanky type.

I am not interested in the Polearm Master/Sentinel combo.

I will not be taking Polearm Master, ever.

Sentinel is an option.

I just want to know if taking the Heavy Armor master feat will be worth it or if it is too dependent on the DM liking to run hordes to be useful. Are there better feats for a prospective tank than Heavy Armor Master at 1st level? If so, what are they?

For a half feat, I think it's good. Something to keep in mind with all this damage reduction talk at higher levels... its not just damage reduction, its almost an increase in HP, in the amount of 3 HP for each attack that hits you. That's like recovering 3 HP instantly every time you get attacked by a non-magical source.

If you get attacked 10 times in a combat, that's like 30 temp HP! Also, the other thing to keep in mind is that these big bad tough mobs, like in STK, also frequently have slaves or minions. HAM helps you be the guy who kicks in the door and doesn't immediately die in the fatal funnel.

THAT SAID: As a VHuman though, you are less likely to need a half feat, most likely you will start with even STR and CON. So in that regards for you specifically, maybe not the best, but on a dwarf? GREAT choice.

Sentinel is also essential, and shield master is pretty good, but only in a melee heavy party - your ranged won't thank you for knocking high pri targets prone. Something a cavalier learned in one of our games where he was the only dedicated melee.

Also, its only been mentioned once, but Mobile is also very good for a tank. If you aren't where you want to be on the battlefield then you can not tank what needs to be tanked. Sentinel is the lynchpin on which this all hinges though. Sentinel is so essential they gave it to Cavalier as a class feature.

As the sentinel tank, your job is to tank the big bad hard hitting thing. For hordes... dude, my bard's hypnotic pattern will tank that goblin horde infinitely better than your tank will, no matter how he's built.

[Waterdeep Merch]

HAM is a fantastic investment if you're worried about your overall survivability and can utilize +1 Strength somehow. It's better than Tough under most circumstances, since it's likely to cut down on more than just 2 hp/level.

But if this will make Strength an odd score and you aren't going to end up with another odd score that you wouldn't want to boost in some other way anyway (like an odd Wisdom score; I'm a firm believer that all Fighters should take Resilient: Wisdom some time after level 11), it just isn't good enough compared to what else you could be doing with an ASI/feat.

Also don't bother if you aren't taking enough mundane damage to warrant shoring up your defenses in the first place, and this comes back to what everyone's saying about Sentinel. If you're just about impossible to hurt, intelligent enemies are going to simply ignore you and go hurt your allies instead. You need to make this into a Catch 22 where they have no good options, and Sentinel helps you do this.

[Sparky McDibben]

Another good point is that while the mobs are a big threat, some enemies can attack three or four times, and most do not have magic weapons. So it's not just +3 against each enemy - it's +3 against each attack, meaning it gets better if you have to draw OA's as well.

[sithlordnergal]

Hey y'all,

GOAL: Creating a Tanky VHuman Sword and Board Fighter for future campaigns
Need Help on: First Level Feat

So I am trying to create a Sword and Board fighter that will be a very defensive and tanky type.

I am not interested in the Polearm Master/Sentinel combo.

I will not be taking Polearm Master, ever.

Sentinel is an option.

I just want to know if taking the Heavy Armor master feat will be worth it or if it is too dependent on the DM liking to run hordes to be useful. Are there better feats for a prospective tank than Heavy Armor Master at 1st level? If so, what are they?

As an AL player who went with a Soradin from level 1 to 20, I started with Heavy Armor Master...and swapped it out the moment I got the DM reward to fully rebuild a T4 character. Heavy Armor Master is great for levels 1-10, especially if you're fighting hoards of creatures. But once you reach tier 3 and onward it becomes far less effective. Either the enemies are dealing magical damage, aren't doing bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, or are doing so much damage that a -3 doesn't make a difference.

Personally, I would take Sentinel over Heavy Armor Master, followed by something like War Mage or Toughness. If you really wanna go the tank route, I highly suggest taking either Fighter or Paladin for a few levels, get Heavy Armor, go Sword and Board, and grab the Defense Fighting Style. Then multiclass into Wizard or Sorcerer and snag War Caster, then Shield.

[CheddarChampion]

If a tank is looking to stop 20 orcs they should be playing a Cleric and using Spirit Guardians.

By the by, a cleric using warding bond might appreciate having HAM. Depending on the DM.

[bid]

especially if you're fighting hoards of creatures.
By the time you get to their hoards, all the creatures are dead.:smallbiggrin:

[JellyPooga]

At high level if the squishies let 20 orcs reach them alive they aren’t doing their job anyway.

I contest this comment.

I'll preface by stating the ambiguity of "high level"; I concede that at tier 4, the squishies probably do have the facility to deal with almost any quantity of mobs at any given time, but before then I'll argue that the opportunity cost in spell slots is still a potential issue. It's also worth considering initiative and actions; a squishie dealing with mobs depends on them getting a spell off first; if ambushed or just rolling low, mobs could get the jump.

On the flipside, HAM gives a frontliner the ability to weather mobs 24/7 (well...maybe not if they're ambushed in the night when their armour is off...) without having to worry too much. The resourceless nature of it has its appeal, even going into higher levels and it isn't dependent on initiative or actions. A HAM frontliner can potentially allow a squishie to turn his big-guns on something more important (like the big bad) instead of wasting time dealing with the mobs first.

[Theodoxus]

By the time you get to their hoards, all the creatures are dead.:smallbiggrin:

Damn those mimics! Damn them to hell!

@OP

I second the use of Cavalier. If you're feeling really gungho, grab at least 3 levels of Barbarian for the Ancestral Protectors path. Now, this does specifically nerf your use of heavy armor (which pretty much makes this whole discussion moot) but you'll have a second marking effect. I don't see where there'd be a problem - while raging, your first hit marks a target, and Cavalier can mark additional targets. The advantage (no pun intended) of the barbarian is if the marked target attacks another character, not only is it at disadvantage, but if it hits, the character also has resistance to the attack.

Barbarians are the tanking champions anyway, adding a fighter multiclass just makes them that much meaner.

1st level, I'd grab shield master and dueling style, for added oomph. Go fighter to 5th (or 6th if you need the extra ASI), stick with heavy armor, but be on the lookout for a good (magical) breastplate. MC into Barbarian for 3 (or 4 levels if again, you need that ASI), and then back to fighter to 11 (12 if you need ASI) - at that point, decide if you want the 15th level Cavalier ability (knocking folks down for free (Str Save to resist)), or the 6th level Barbarian ability (DR for your fellow party mate).

It's definitely a different way to go, but I think it might be a very fun build.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Sentinel first, or you're no tank.

Or, you know, do a lot of damage and hold a concentration spell.

[Yunru]

Or, you know, do a lot of damage and hold a concentration spell.

How is that a tank?

[Zhorn]

How is that a tank?

Baiting the DM? Justify the enemy wanting to eliminate a high damage threat, and concentration to make you look like a juicier target?

[stoutstien]

How is that a tank?

It makes the choice harder to make on who to attack. A front liner who is doing damage and is buffing their party is a bigger threat than one that just doing one or the other.

[Synth]

Heavy Armour Master is actually really good to help you be even more tanky than you already are. If you're faced with a horde of enemies, being able to take 3 damage off of every attack (not just enemy) helps you stay alive, especially when you consider that a lot of enemies have multiattack. However, it does become less effective around singular enemies/smaller groups of enemies that deal so much damage that taking -3 on each attack, while still somewhat useful, doesn't really change much.

I'd suggest picking sentinel or shield master as a first level feat unless you either know that you're gonna be facing a lot of hordes or if you think that taking -3 damage to attacks will still make the difference against more powerful enemies.
(There's also the +1 to strength to consider, which is pretty annoying if you already have an even strength score)

[Misterwhisper]

Heavy Armour Master is actually really good to help you be even more tanky than you already are. If you're faced with a horde of enemies, being able to take 3 damage off of every attack (not just enemy) helps you stay alive, especially when you consider that a lot of enemies have multiattack. However, it does become less effective around singular enemies/smaller groups of enemies that deal so much damage that taking -3 on each attack, while still somewhat useful, doesn't really change much.

I'd suggest picking sentinel or shield master as a first level feat unless you either know that you're gonna be facing a lot of hordes or if you think that taking -3 damage to attacks will still make the difference against more powerful enemies.
(There's also the +1 to strength to consider, which is pretty annoying if you already have an even strength score)

The issue there is that, it does not make you a tank at all, it just makes you live longer.

It would actually make smart enemies attack you less, not more.

Just because you take less damage does not make the enemy target you more.

Also, it has no effect on magic which is a huge issue later in the game.

[MaxWilson]

The issue there is that, it does not make you a tank at all, it just makes you live longer.

It would actually make smart enemies attack you less, not more.

The best tanking feature in the game is the Seeming spell, which lets you make all the squishies look like beefy tanks (or Medusas) and all the beefy tanks look like squishies.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Being a tank has two components: Making yourself a tempting target and being able to deal with the consequences of being a tempting target.

Sentinel has a place, for sure. It makes you a more tempting target because it can prevent an enemy from attacking anyone else.

But HAM is worthy in a different way, making you more able to take the damage. It is obviously at its best early, so VH is a preferred race since they can benefit starting at level 1.

Later on, a cleric with Spiritual Guardians is kind of sticky all on his own. If he wades into combat, enemies have a harder time attacking anyone else. Even if he doesn't have SG, there is incentive to deal with the guy who is keeping everyone else up. Ignoring a paladin and his pesky Auras to better deal with the squishies is also problematic, because he is helping the squishies be less squishy just by existing nearby.

If you're the guy concentrating on a good spell (polymorph? twinned polymorph? whatever else), you are a natural target for aggro; you don't need Sentinel for that. Reducing hp damage by 3 lets you take the aggro better. Give HAM to, for example, a F1/AbjX and smile. Sentinel might be useful too, but maybe Warcaster+BB is better?

BTW, Sentinel doesn't help much against ranged attacks.

Sentinel is a fine Feat, but a direct comparison to HAM is difficult.

Anyway,

Ken