Most optimized group of 4 adventurers?

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

If you had complete control over team composition, and were preparing for an incredibly difficult combat-heavy dungeon crawl levels 1-10 filled with intelligent opponents, what 4 race/class/subclass combos would you pick to fill out your ranks?

A few stipulations: Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Money is fairly scarce so relying on getting plate mail may not work out.

My group is doing a competition run like this, and I'm curious what kind of combo we could set up when we're all willing to switch to whatever we need to for the greatest chance of victory.

I'm currently considering a group of 3 drow warlocks that all take devil sight, and one shadow sorcerer, so that we can have darkness up in everysingle fight and have no disadvantages from it... But I'm worried about blindsight/tremorsense/etc opponents ruining that strategy, or AOE blasting us away regardless of being able to see us.

[Willie the Duck]

That seems incredibly vulnerable to running into unplanned-for situations and/or effects which target saves or the like the party are all weak towards. Having someone in the party with Devil's Sight is a great way to make sure that darkness-using opponents can't devastate a party, fixating on having everyone in the party has it, to the expense of being well-rounded, seems like solving one problem but opening many more. I think a party with a mix of skills (nothing takes the place of a high perception score, for instance), magic, save bonuses, and offensive capability would do wonders for the group. Maybe include a paladin (dex-based, as you don't need Str for non-existent multiclassing, and sword and board bests 2-handed in a featless game anyways) and a bard or gloomstalker ranger along with one warlock and the sorcerer (or other appropriate mage-type).

[stoutstien]

Warforged across the board.
I'd go all cleric just for kicks.
Doesn't really matter which domains but forge, order, knowledge, and tempest would be epic.

[Nefariis]

two different strategies for me:

Option 1 (two full casters, three tanks if need be, plenty of healing and support):

Druid
Bard
Fighter
Paladin


Option 2:
4 paladins as there can be quite a bit of variance and their Auras stack, +12 to all saves at level one is no joke

[sleepyhead]

Just to mention Kobolds always getting advantage without having to worry about the sun

[ruy343]

Opinion: class compositions aren't as important as player tactics. Sure, you can push your DPR up a bit with a few tricks, but really it doesn't much matter - the damage will be done.

DPR: In addition to Paladins, Rogues are excellent at dealing lots of damage to a single target, especially if they've got help (from people using the help action, particularly). Rangers with Hunters Mark at mid-level also do a pretty good job.

Survival: Monks and rogues are the kings of survivability, especially as you get into higher levels. Monks in particular can spend ki points to dodge as a bonus action, which lets them stay in the fray and help rogues dish out the damage as their own damage drops off.

Tank: If you can channel enemy attacks into the guy with lots of HP or high AC, your team will do better overall. Barbarian rage is a godsend, especially if they can be healed, but barbarians struggle to keep the focus on them sometimes. Fighters/others with the Sentinel feat can do serious work. Paladins with divine challenge can also protect the team.

Utility: you THINK that the campaign will be combat-heavy, but avoiding combat/damage, and otherwise giving your team the upper hand PRIOR to combat is key to survival. A wizard or sorcerer with the invisibility or silence spells can take you a long way in that regard. Similarly, simple spells like Grease at the right time can really help a party start a combat on the right foot.

Healing: Not as important as many think. In fact, you'll do a lot better when you can simply avoid damage than if you focus on healing it after the battle.

Personal recommendation?


Rogue (High DPR, especially if assisted by the wizard or monk to get advantage on their attacks)
Monk (high damage at low levels, high stunning and survivability/tanking ability at mid-high levels)
Wizard (not focused on damage, but on utility/control)
Paladin (focus on AC, so sword/board)



The rogue and monk can work together to take down any single dangerous target, the paladin acts as a mild healer and can draw enemy fire to himself to protect allies, and the wizard makes sure that all combats are fought on the party's terms.

Others may disagree, but it works in my experience.

[KorvinStarmast]

A few stipulations: Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Eberron already has variant races. (And dragonmarks are sort of like a feat).

What do I propose?

1 Paladin (Half Elf)
Oath of Ancients
1 Rogue (Wood Elf or Gnome)
AT, Thief, Assassin ... I don't think it matters. If XGTE is an option, Master Mind or Scout; (I love the "bonus action gives an ally advantage" feature)

1 Wizard - School? (Gnome, Human, High Elf)
It matters not, though Diviner, Transmuter, and Evoker all have the kind of features that I personally like. Need flexibilty in casting, and crowd control. The rituals out of the spell book will have utility without costing spell slots

1 Cleric (Hill Dwarf)
I prefer Tempest, but any of them will do.

Since the challenges are 'who knows what we'll face?' we need to have some flexibilty and I want the cleric to be able to turn some of the undead that you'll eventually run into.
Also: Bless. It's good from level 1-20, and really good at early levels.

[Misterwhisper]

Well no feats or multi classing makes a lot of things pointless.

With no PAM/SS/GWM/CBE that takes out most usefulness of martial characters except rogue or monk, but they have just as big of an issue as I will mention in a bit.
Also no SS means no real way to play an archer in melee... except 1.

This also means that nobody will ever gain any armor proficiency than they started with.

Let's break it down by class:

Barbarian: Resistance is great, always. No feats means no GWM so reckless loses a lot of thunder.
If your DM will allow a non-dwarf battlerager, take it and smile.
Might be an issue with the built in armor and all but surely they could work with that.

Bard: No problems here, these stipulations won't hurt much as 90% of bards are Lore anyway.
Who needs milticlassing when you can steal the best spells?

Cleric: Fine, no need for feats anyway. Forge Cleric is great, so is nature.

Druid: Druids don't usually multi class or take feats anyway. Wildshape is amazing for scouting around and sneaking, even if not a moon druid. Shepard or Dreams works well.

Fighter: No feats? Nope. You only need 1 really good stat and the others being middle is fine.

Monk: Monks almost never take feats because they need the stats, and almost never multi class. Monks should be fine. Open Hand or Drunken Master

Paladin: No multi classing means that they will be very sparing on their smites, also when they get to the level to spread good saves the group will love you.

Ranger: This has deep stalker written all over it.

Rogue: With no feats, your damage will actually stay up with other combat classes. Take advantage.

Sorcerer: Nothing special hear a wizard can't just do, but that training in Con saves is nice.

Warlock: With nobody to dip your class and leave and no feats, you can be of some use... unless it is the 15min adv day like most of the groups.

Wizard: These restrictions only really hurt your con save. Otherwise go crazy.



I will say this:

In this kind of game the Double Scimitar is even more broken than normal.
Which, the fact that the only 2 martial classes that help with no feats, Monk and Rogue, can't really use one worth crap, hurts.
Free bonus action attack that costs nothing.

Archery Style +2 hit will make a bigger difference when nobody will have SS/CBE.


My 4:

Half-Orc Barbarian with a double Scimitar, go either Totem or Zealot.
-yeah it says you should to be an elf, but it also says you can find one or be gifted one. It is just a martial weapon.
-Free bonus attack with a stat, works well with rage and since no multi classing you would never get a fighting style anyway.

Kobold Rogue with a short bow going Scout:
This is one of the only ways to play an archer, Scout lets you move out of melee for free on their turn if they close on you, saving you a disengage, Kobold means even if they do you can probably even out the disadvantage. You are the skill master, all out of combat skills are handled easily.

High Elf Wizard - Bladesinger - don't take it to melee, take it to have great Concentration checks, be captain utility.

Warforged Envoy Forge Cleric: Healing, plenty of armor, shields, magic weapons and all the normal cleric goodies.

[Mongobear]

If you had complete control over team composition, and were preparing for an incredibly difficult combat-heavy dungeon crawl levels 1-10 filled with intelligent opponents, what 4 race/class/subclass combos would you pick to fill out your ranks?

A few stipulations: Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Money is fairly scarce so relying on getting plate mail may not work out.


4x Warforged for sure. You don't need to buy Plate if you ARE Plate.

EK Fighter - Juggernaut

Swashbuckler Rogue - Envoy

Knowledge Cleric - Envoy

War Wizard - Envoy

[Misterwhisper]

4x Warforged for sure. You don't need to buy Plate if you ARE Plate.

EK Fighter - Juggernaut

Swashbuckler Rogue - Envoy

Knowledge Cleric - Envoy

War Wizard - Envoy

The only downside to warforged is no dark vision. Otherwise I would play one every single time.

[stoutstien]

The only downside to warforged is no dark vision. Otherwise I would play one every single time.

Best part of an all warforged party is who needs to be subtle about anything?
Plus darkvision is pretty cheap for the duration.

[CheddarChampion]

Option 2:
4 paladins as there can be quite a bit of variance and their Auras stack, +12 to all saves at level one is no joke

Aura of Protection does not stack by virtue of the effects having the same source.

Per the DMG errata under chapter 8:

Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.

So only the most potent paladin aura (in range) would affect the group.

Edit to contribute to the thread:
Half-Elf Paladin, Oath of the Ancients or Oath of Conquest for tanking/damage.
Gnomish Abjurer for utility/support/counterspell/damage.
Lightfoot Halfling Lore Bard for skills/support/counterspell/rerolling 1's.
Hill Dwarf Life Cleric for tanking/support/superb healing.

Between Fireballs and Hold Person/Monster+Smites you have good AoE and single target damage.
Between the paladin and the cleric you get good healing/restoration/defensive buffs/tanking.
Between the bard and the wizard you have good out of combat utility.
Between all the casters you have a wide variety of spells.

[strangebloke]

It basically comes down to campaign structure. IMO a bard would be pretty eh in a sloggy dungeon crawl but would be indispensable in a courtly intrigue context.

But to handle a variety of situations, I would say:
Rogue (arcane trickster) : in what context does a rogue not perform well? Arcane trickster gives them much more than any other subclass.
Wizard (abjuration) : has access to whatever magic you might need.
Cleric (whatever) or druid (moon) : tanks, spanks, has awesome support options.
Paladin (ancients) : juuuust in case you need to melt a boss. Also I feel naked without that paladin save bonus. Also we needed a strength focused character.


Warforged cleric, paladin, and rogue. Hobgoblin wizard.

Ultimately, yeah. You can do whatever and make it work, although barbarians and monks probably don't really make the cut in any four man team.


two different strategies for me:

Option 1 (two full casters, three tanks if need be, plenty of healing and support):

Druid
Bard
Fighter
Paladin


Option 2:
4 paladins as there can be quite a bit of variance and their Auras stack, +12 to all saves at level one is no joke
No, they don't stack.. Why would you expect them to?

[Stygofthedump]

Half elf paladin vengeance
Leader, Smite, aura, misty step, healing.

Dwarf Moon Druid
Front liner, healer, scout, very handy utility, some control.

Cleric trickery
Polymorph, mirror image, Spirit Guardian’s, ritual spells, healing.

High elf Arcane trickster.
Spell support, traps-magehand, scout, sneak attack damage.

All characters can survive front lines. 3 can heal, all have ways to move fast and possibly kite. I was tempted to put bard for arcane trickster but if dungeon has traps trickster is better.

[Sutekh]

If you had complete control over team composition, and were preparing for an incredibly difficult combat-heavy dungeon crawl levels 1-10 filled with intelligent opponents, what 4 race/class/subclass combos would you pick to fill out your ranks?

A few stipulations: Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Money is fairly scarce so relying on getting plate mail may not work out.

My group is doing a competition run like this, and I'm curious what kind of combo we could set up when we're all willing to switch to whatever we need to for the greatest chance of victory.

I'm currently considering a group of 3 drow warlocks that all take devil sight, and one shadow sorcerer, so that we can have darkness up in everysingle fight and have no disadvantages from it... But I'm worried about blindsight/tremorsense/etc opponents ruining that strategy, or AOE blasting us away regardless of being able to see us.

Character Jenga!
4 Half Elves.
1: Paladin- Probably Oath of Vengance for hunters mark for an additional source of (limited) alpha strike. Standard point buy just for simplicity (for all characters). Background of noble, giving us Skill in History and Persuasion, Paladin gets Insight and Intimidation, Half Elf gets 2 free picks and I suggest for the whole group of 4 take Stealth and Perception. This is a kill team that wants to get close, and see when people are trying to get close to it.
2: Cleric- Light Domain for access to Faire fire and the ability to blast out sunlight in an underground environment. It also supplies an additional AOE via fireball in the late game (for this environment). Although light seems counter-intuitive in a stealth based hit squad, it ALSO allows for some serious "shock and awe". Background of Acolyte gives you Insight and Religion, Cleric gives you Medicine and Persuasion. Once more, Half elf for Stealth and Perception.
3: Bard- College of Valour. Here we are getting more Base attacks to go with the Paladins Extra attacks to provide a consistent damage source without using up expendable resources. Once more you get endgame AOE via fireball with arcane secrets, and your standard counter spell and Dispel magic. You also get the utility of a bards spell list, including a 3rd source of healing. A background of Charlatan gives us Deception and Sleight of Hand, Half elf gives us our group based Stealth and Perception. As for the other 3, base it on what you feel you will need.
4: Warlock- Pact of the blade, Archfey Patron (though hexblade is optional). This sorta depends on if you want to go ranged or melee. Half elf Stealth and Perception, outlander Background for Athletics and Survival and Warlock grants Investigation and Deception. More AOE if you take fireball, a secondary source of faire fire, a tertiary 2nd Attack per round and solid ranged DPS without using expendable resources.

This group have multiple sources of AOE, multiple healing sources, multiple Attacks per round, And swathe of cantrips and conc based boosts. It also has a ton of skills, and skill synergy with the party members.

[Slipperychicken]

Cleric (Life)
Barbarian (Bear-Totem)
Warlock (Doesn't Matter, get eldritch sight)
Druid (Moon)

Cleric heals and casts bless, barbarian tanks/dps, warlock spots invisible and does ranged, druid wildshapes and summons. Maybe make the druid a tortle for AC if that's allowed.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Ancient Paladin 7 Divine Soul or paladin 3 aura is good.
Life cleric1-3/Shepherd Druid 7-9 healing to the top.
Wizard, abju/evo control/aoe.
Monk shadow/long death/open hand for lockdown.

All youn-ti for the save advantage.

Just saw that multiclass is a non available.
Make it:
Ancient Paladin 10
Shepherd Druid 10
Wizard abju/evo 10
Mong shadow/long deatg/open hand 10

All Youn-Ti.

The paladin is the safe place, the Druid is the healing machine and meat shield with summons (+some really nice control).
The wizard will give control and AOE.
The monk will give lockdown on high priority targets.

[Lyracian]

Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric. Healing & Sprirt Guardians. Dampen Elements can help the whole team
With Shillelagh we only care about Wisdom and can wear heavy armour (even if we do get plate) without str.

Warforged Paladin of Vengence (Hunters Mark, Misty Step, Haste)
I do not know Ebberon too well but I know Warforged extra AC is silly. Gives us an aura for the whole party.
Probably go Dex based so we can swap between Composite and Heavy Plating as needed since we do not have the feats to make str based weapons worth while.

High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue. Skill Monkey
Booming Blade is, in my opinion, broken but if it is allowed we might as well have a character using it. From level 5 this is just a free damage boost to characters with a single attack. Can do paired Short Swords at lower levels. Could be Half-Elf if you want to cover more social skills.

Wizard. Hobgoblin works as would another Elf.
I like Enchanter for Hypnotic Gaze but Diviner or Abjurer works as well. Ritual Caster gives us more options each day.
Standard mix of a bit of control and AoE damage.

[KillingTime]

Half Elf - Lore Bard
Spells and utility

Hill Dwarf - Tempest Cleric
Melee, Healing, Blasting, Support

Deep Gnome - Arcane Trickster
Utility, damage, and someone has to be able to pick locks in a dungeon crawl.

Drow - Paladin (dex, sword and board)
Smites. Heals. Supports. Extra source of faerie fire.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

My group is doing a competition run like this.
incredibly difficult combat-heavy dungeon crawl levels 1-10 filled with intelligent opponents
Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Money is fairly scarce so relying on getting plate mail may not work out.


The answer should depend on what the "win" condition is for this competition. Is it getting it done the fastest? least amount of in game time? Least amount of character deaths?

Minimal rests, I.E. the speedrun.

Tabaxi Assassin Rogue- The ability to see an enemy from up to 120' away move in and stab them with an automatic crit is going to be a great way to start off combats where a single target is obviously the biggest threat.
Yuan-Ti Hexblade Warlock Pact of the Chain or tome- The ability to knock an enemy around the battlefield without resource expenditure, an invisible scout/or general ritual needs, and the ability to spike damage using short rest resources.
Drow Gloomstalker Ranger- 150' of darkvision, 2-3 attacks in the first round of combat, Archery or dueling fighting style.
Choose either a War magic wizard or for truly ohko gameplay grab a warforged battlemaster fighter.

This entire setup is specifically based around knowing where the fight is going to be and then killing everything in your way in as efficient a manner as possible. If there is an obvious glass cannon the rogue and ranger destroy it as fast as possible, if it's still up the battlemaster fighter gives the rogue another attack to kill it. I know very few level relevant monsters that will survive that. This does have some major weaknesses on the healing and magic ends but the game generally doesn't require those.

[Spacehamster]

Simplicity.
mtn dwarf totem bearbarian with shield, battle axe(cus dorf) and halfplate.

Wood elf battlemaster with archery style and background that lets him deal with traps and the like.

High elf abjurer wizard for a more robust caster and lastly a hill dwarf life cleric for some more spell goodness and good healing for the party.

[Eldariel]

Diviner, Forge Cleric, Moon Druid, Lore Bard or some variation there-of. Having access to all the spells in the game is just ridiculously good, and the more spell levels, the better. Spells are the best limited resource in the game by a long shot. Multiclassing wouldn't change anything.

[Ogre Mage]

Single-classed, no feats and not going beyond 10th level --

Oath of Ancients Paladin
Moon Druid
Light Domain Cleric
Lore Bard

[chainer1216]

Just 4 warforged moon druids with the criminal background.

[Chugger]

Wolf totem barb + two spell-capable meleers, like Pal and sword bard. Fourth a Light Cleric or Divine Soul Sorc.

[Eldariel]

Just 4 warforged moon druids with the criminal background.

Curious, why do you feel the Criminal background would be optimal? E.g. Spy had a great ability and useful skills, but it's far from the only one.

[Bobthewizard]

Without feats, martial characters take a big hit, so I would go all full casters, focusing a little more on blasting than I would if I had a barbarian and paladin in the party.

1. evoker wizard for sculpted fireballs
2. shepherd druid for magical attack conjured animals
3. light cleric for tanking and spirit guardians
4. lore bard as the face, skill monkey and more spells, probably taking lightning bolt at 6 to help with DPR

This gets you access to all of the best 3rd level combat spells - hypnotic pattern, fear, fireball, spirit guardians, conjure animals - each of which is better than the extra attack that martial characters get. With this many casters, you should have enough resources to use at least one big spell per combat.

If the game were going higher than level 10, I might replace the bard with a paladin for better nova damage. But up until level 10, fireball and lightning bolt are a lot of damage, so having more control is likely better.

[Waazraath]

If you had complete control over team composition, and were preparing for an incredibly difficult combat-heavy dungeon crawl levels 1-10 filled with intelligent opponents, what 4 race/class/subclass combos would you pick to fill out your ranks?

A few stipulations: Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Money is fairly scarce so relying on getting plate mail may not work out.

My group is doing a competition run like this, and I'm curious what kind of combo we could set up when we're all willing to switch to whatever we need to for the greatest chance of victory.

I'm currently considering a group of 3 drow warlocks that all take devil sight, and one shadow sorcerer, so that we can have darkness up in everysingle fight and have no disadvantages from it... But I'm worried about blindsight/tremorsense/etc opponents ruining that strategy, or AOE blasting us away regardless of being able to see us.

Interesting take. I agree that in most cases, dropping darkness where your party isn't bothered with it, is a winning tactic - but I also see the weaknesses you describe. All in all, if this really is the only trick you have on your sleave, it will turn quickly into a gimmick - I don't think it'll stay fun for 10 levels, if you really are gonna play this. Furtherrmore, a 1 trick pony with it's trick denied is in deep trouble - so at least a plan B and C should be devised (which should be totally possible with 4 casters btw - plenty of options).

Personally, I'd try to go for a party that covers all bases as good as possible as a starting point, and not a specific combo. For, me that is:
- party should have at least 1 person who can do the social stuff
- party as a whole should be able to go stealthy (all have a decent dex, stealth skill & darkvision, and party access to stuff like Pass without trace).
- at least 1 character with the ability to detect and/or bypass locks
- Mandatory paladin (+3 to 5 on saves is too good to pass up, and otherwise a very solid class)
- Mandatory: source of temporary HP for the entire party; makes huge difference in survivability (this is a bit annoying, given that feats aren't allowed so no Inspiring leader).

Lack of feats (GWM/SS/PAM) and multi-classing limits many ways to get very high dpr's.

Starting from here, I get to the following:
- dex based paladin, ancients probably for the additional party buff at lvl 7
- glamour bard: loads of skill; temp HP with bonus function, that is: emergency button for the entire party (mantle of inspiration); full casting that can be tuned towards buff, debuff, utility, healing, damage, bfc (as needed)

Now something to complement this. For example:

- EB based hexblade warlock, ranged direct single target damage, some crowd controll (pick 3 EB invocations for extra (cha) damage, repelling, and slow (lance of lethargy)), has 2 invocations free for utility; decent AC with medium armor + shield. Chain pact for an invisible scout.
- dex based tempest cleric, focus on area damage, defense (shield), spiritual guardians.

A little combo here is spirit guardians with the EB's, shooting enemies out of range, slowing them, and making it impossible to get back into attack range.

Furthermore everybody has acceptable defenses (at least light armor with good dex, and lots of temporary HP). The party has a load of casting, healing, options for both range and melee, area effect options, skill, some cha-based classes to do the talking, some helping servants (pally's mount, warlock's avatar, mabye a greater steed at lvl 10 with the bard), and are all dex based so can stealth. Pass without trace is missing, might be able to pick up through a racial feat (earth genasi) but that's at the cost of suboptimal stats.

[T.G. Oskar]

I've always felt this is a pretty decent and balanced team that should cover most circumstances, but as others have mentioned, the gist is that you can't always prepare for the unplanned. That said, I feel completely comfortable with the following:

Paladin (Oath of the Crown): the party's tank. With Champion's Challenge, Warding Bond and Spirit Guardians, you have pretty effective short-range crowd control, while still having a pretty effective AoE emergency heal and solid spell selection. Lack of feats hurts a lot to the Paladin, since it loses access to Sentinel, Shield Master, Polearm Master and even Magic Initiate (Sorcerer or Warlock) for Booming Blade, which could also involve War Caster as an option (though you might not get to exploit that very much, given that you only get two feats if you sacrifice all your ASIs).
Race: Any, but I'd go for Scourge Aasimar (Volo's Guide to Monsters). It's on an official publication and not necessarily a variant (unless your DM considers the DMG Aasimar as the one true Aasimar), and it gives a ton of things: another source of emergency healing, Light as a cantrip, resistance to two moderately rare but very annoying forms of damage, and the 3rd level racial feature works wonders when facing a tough enemy or a ton of enemies, since while you get mangled real bad, you can combine it with Spirit Guardians and essentially crush them under tons of damage over time.
Key Choices: Fighting Style - Duelist (I'd prefer Tunnel Fighter, but that's UA and not published; Dueling is a second good choice, as it allows very decent damage while still wielding a shield for higher AC), Shield of Missile Attraction (yeah, it's a cursed shield, but the benefit is great, and the curse itself is wonderful against ranged attackers).
Alternatives: While the lack of a feat hurts a lot, if the Dragonmarked races were to be allowed, a Mark of Sentinel Human coupled with an Oath of Redemption would be fun. You do get access to the Rings of Shared Suffering, though, which is basically a permanent Warding Bond on the character you want protected the most anyways.

Bard (College of Lore): the jack of all trades, while still being good enough in most. Has access to Expertise, a larger selection of skill proficiencies, a wide variety of spells, the ability to choose spells from other classes, and the awesome Cutting Words class feature which can make or break many battles. The Bard will have to account as the main spellcaster, with a large amount of choices at its disposal; at a bare minimum, it'll have to handle auxiliary healing (through Healing Word), crowd control (Synaptic Static is a great choice, but it'll have to depend on Evard's Black Tentacles as soon as it has access to, which will most likely be by level 10) and most utility spells. The choices of Expertise will most likely have to focus on things that are important to a dungeon crawl, such as Thieves' Tools, Perception, Stealth and Survival.
Race: Half-Elf. With the choice of an extra two skill proficiencies, you can cover up any potential lull in your skill selection. Darkvision is also nice.
Key Choices: Magical Secrets Choices - Bless, Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Storm Sphere. These are all combat spells (other than Bless), but they fit the bill. All spells are below 5th level (meaning you get enough spell slots to use), and two of them are below 4th level, which means that if you can get a Pearl of Power somehow, you can get one extra use of them.
Background - Urchin (for access to Thieves' Tools, plus you also get Disguise Kit for fun)
Alternatives: None

Ranger (any from XGtE): this one is up for grabs, but you're invariably major DPS. Gloom Stalker is perfect for dungeons, and with Dread Ambusher, you get a massive 1st-round benefit, which can help you kill the first target almost immediately; you also get improved darkvision, but the spells are kinda meh. Horizon Walker, on the other hand, has better spells and Planar Warrior is pretty awesome, but Detect Portal may not be that useful and you won't get the best out of Planar Warrior. Monster Slayer is somewhat in the middle: so-so spells, great extra damage option, and Hunter's Sense is just great when you meet a creature you don't know anything about; furthermore, Supernatural Defense works wonders against the target of Slayer's Prey. A shame that you get one level short of Magic-User's Nemesis, which is bonkers' good. As for the class itself; you get some great spells, a wonderful out-of-combat healing option with Healing Sphere access, and most of your class features are tailored for exploration anyways.
Race: Wood Elf. The extra burst of speed is perfect for Gloom Stalker, and moderately good for everyone else. You can also hide much, much better. Also: have you noticed everyone gets Darkvision?
Key Choices: Fighting Style - Archery (you want to hit better, and you want to be out of range of the Paladin when s/he goes Scourge Mode), Natural Explorer - Mountain or Underdark (based on the location of the dungeon, really: Underdark is the most obvious choice), Background - Criminal (secondary access to Thieves' Tools, for when you don't want the Bard to deal with the lock)
Alternatives: You could change the choice of race, from Elf to something else which might be more fun. In particular, Wildhunt Shifters are pretty awesome, giving you Survival as a free skill proficiency and making you the ultimate hunter.

Sorcerer (Divine Soul): this is the main change I'm doing. Originally, I went for Warlock, but Divine Soul Sorcerer is pretty bonkers' awesome, despite the spell slot limitations. You get Cleric spellcasting on top of Sorcerer spellcasting (which most likely means you have to split your spell selection each level into one Cleric spell, one Sorcerer spell), you get Metamagic, you get most of the sweet crowd control spells Wizards get (other than Evard's Black Tentacles, which is a shame), and most importantly, another concentration slot for wicked buffs. Empowered Healing is also pretty good.
Race: Any with good Charisma. Bonuses to Dexterity or Constitution a plus. A Scourge Aasimar would work very nicely with a Divine Soul Sorcerer, but it's already the Paladin's choice, so I prefer not to use it.
Key Choices: Divine Magic - Law (for the free Bless spell), Metamagics - Careful Spell, Quickened Spell (the first is to help your allies in avoiding most of the effects of your crowd control spells, the other one is obviously for bonus action Mass Cure Wounds shenanigans (while still allowing you to use either your Sorcerer or Cleric-as-Sorcerer cantrips).
Alternatives: Obviously, variant races are not allowed, so the different flavors of Tiefling aren't allowed, but if they somehow were, a Tiefling dedicated to Dispater, Glasya or Levistus would be pretty fun. They offer the right choice of ability score improvements, and better spell/cantrip selections IMO.

[chainer1216]

Curious, why do you feel the Criminal background would be optimal? E.g. Spy had a great ability and useful skills, but it's far from the only one.

First one to come in mind that gets stealth and thieves tools.

[sithlordnergal]

So, first thing I'd need to be sure of is if most special Racial abilities remain active if you Wild Shape. If they do, then I'd go with:

This is basically the perfect counter to any spell casting. Yuan-Ti gives immunity to poison, advantage on saves vs. magic, and a few decent spells to boot. At the same time, Paladins are fine front line units with a mixture of burst damage from smites, healing, utility spells, and their Auras. Oath of the Ancients in particular is really good due to spells like Misty Step, Moon Beam, and Ensnaring Strike on top of their Aura that helves spell damage.

The Moon Druid is yet another powerful tank, but it also has full spell casting and a fine list of spells to boot. As someone who went through Tomb of Annihilation without dying until the very end, I can vouch for this class' tanking power. And even when I did die it took Acererak hitting me with each of his Legendary Actions, followed by Power Word kill on his turn to take me down...and that was after I had cheesed the main boss by turning into a Fire Elemental and dragging said boss into lava to kill it in 3 rounds.

Their job is mainly going to be to tank, then fall back and provide support with their spells. They'll be able to provide a little bit of everything outside of spell damage, and if your DM allows you to use racial abilities while Wild Shaped, then you can do things like turn into a Giant Spider and use Radiant Soul at the same time. You also gain Darkvision, a lesser version of Lay on Hands, and a free Light cantrip. Also, don't forget about Healing Spirit, its the best out of combat healing spell in the game and the Druid gets it.

This is the skill monkey of the group. With a mixture of the Lore Bard, Half Elf, and Background, this unit will have proficiency in 10 skills, at least one Tool from your Background, and they'll add half your proficiency modifier to the rest of their skills. They also get to have Expertise in 2 skills, which increases to 4 skills at level 10. Thanks to Lore Bard, this class is an excellent Debuffer, able to lower attack and damage rolls against themselves or their allies with a reaction, and they get two extra spells of their choice at level 6. Personally I suggest Counterspell and some sort of damaging spell that uses an attack roll to get past creatures with high saves. This is on top of a Bard's natural support abilities and spells. Last but not least, I highly recommend taking Leomund's Tiny Hut, that way the party will always have a safe place to rest.

I'm a bit unsure what to pick for the final class, and I'm torn between one of two options. Both classes are chosen for DPS and scouting potential, and bothof these classes do those things in different ways:

---Option 1: Tabaxi Swashbuckler Rogue---

--Pros--

Reliable DPS at all times without spending resources
Is an excellent scout
Support Skill Monkey to help make up for any skills the Bard might be lacking
Can be effective at any range
Tabai grants Charisma boost, which helps with key Swashbuckler abilities.
Able to get Expertise in Persuasion, which makes Panache insane at level 9


--Cons--

Requires weapons and ammo to be efficent
They only gain one attack, and if they miss that's it for them
They can't really provide many status debuffs to their targets



---Option 2: Lizardfolk Way of the Open Hand Monk---

--Pros--


They don't require any gear to be super effective, which is good in a place low on items
They gain natural magical weapons, perfect for getting past resistances. Especially for DPS
Their bite attack is considered a Natural Weapon like a fist, meaning you can start with a d6 monk attack
They have a bonus action Bite that gives them temp HP
They can use either Monk AC or their Natural Armor of 13+Dex
They can use a Short Rest to turn most enemy corpses into weapons and a shield
They can Stun, Shove, knock prone, or deny targets reactions when they hit a target with an unarmed strike
They have a lot more mobility.
Their abilities recharge on a short rest.


--Cons--


Their damage output is a bit low for DPS
They lack the number of skills the Rogue has
Almost all of their abilities cost resources, be it Ki Points or Short Rest recharge abilities

[ezekielraiden]

Character 1: The Tank. Warforged Oath of Ancients Paladin. Beef for days, guaranteed armor. +1 to Con, Str, and Cha means you can easily achieve 16 Str and 14 each Cha and Con, and Paladin offers the best party-beneficial defenses around. Arguably the class with the biggest power differential compared to 3.5e--the 5e Paladin is definitely in the top 3 strongest classes IMO.

Character 2: The Skillmonkey. Half-Elf Lore Bard gives you the largest number of skills with the fewest restrictions, and Expertise to boot. Magical Secrets means you can steal the best spells for whatever the party ends up needing more of, and the Bard spell list is already really good for control and buffing--it's an extremely solid class. Not being able to MC hurts (it would be amazing to pick up Cleric 1 and Rogue 1), but it's survivable.

Character 3: The Druid (because, let's face it, the class IS practically a build archetype). Firbolg Druid, Circle of the Land. Though I do think Moon Druids tend to be stronger overall...their power level is far to spike-and-trough to be worthwhile here. If it were finished content, I'd probably suggest the new playtest fire druid instead, as they look very strong. Firbolg + Druid gives you unparalleled natural-world utility, with a wonderfully diverse spell list.

Character 4: The Controller. Elf (Eladrin) Diviner Wizard. The best subclass of the strongest spellcasting class, with one of the strongest race options for that class (since only gnomes get +2 Int). With a Bard and a Paladin to cover social skills, this Wizard can leverage their Int to be the group academic as well, covering any lingering holes the party might have. No

Between these three spellcasters (Bard, Druid, and Wizard) damn near all utility magic is covered. The party is a little weak on front-liners, but with only four characters that is hard to address while preserving diversity. If it were five characters, the fifth would depend on whether the party needs more damage (probably Dragon Sorcerer), more stealth (Shadow Monk), or more healing/survivability (Life Cleric). Any of these parties would be solid, individually having both a specialty and enough flexibility to work outside their focus, and collectively much more than the sum of the parts.

Of course, this party still has some weaknesses (as any party will have, but especially one with these restrictions)--as noted, weak on front-liners, not particularly adept at dealing with outsiders beyond the Paladin, and potentially low damage output. But by and large, this group either has the tools to address a problem, or can build up to said tools.

[Ogre Mage]

I've noticed that some sort of paladin and lore bard seem to appear on many people's list for the optimized 4-person party (including mine). The druid (usually moon) is probably the next most frequent.

[HiveStriker]

If you had complete control over team composition, and were preparing for an incredibly difficult combat-heavy dungeon crawl levels 1-10 filled with intelligent opponents, what 4 race/class/subclass combos would you pick to fill out your ranks?

A few stipulations: Feats, multiclassing, and variant races are not allowed. Eberron and all official published content is otherwise okay. Money is fairly scarce so relying on getting plate mail may not work out.

My group is doing a competition run like this, and I'm curious what kind of combo we could set up when we're all willing to switch to whatever we need to for the greatest chance of victory.

I'm currently considering a group of 3 drow warlocks that all take devil sight, and one shadow sorcerer, so that we can have darkness up in everysingle fight and have no disadvantages from it... But I'm worried about blindsight/tremorsense/etc opponents ruining that strategy, or AOE blasting us away regardless of being able to see us.
Hmm...

There are honestly many "best groups", although you have several ways to go at it: either be a party super strong in something (sneak, ranged attack, resilience) or have each be strong in several roles with one or two fortes.

I'd probably pick...
- Druid for healing, environmental control, utility. Moon could be interesting for the extra variety of forms, but really Shepherd is the best here.
- Fiend Tome Warlock: use Fireball when you get it, control spells otherwise, pump party sneakiness with perma Invisibility, or Fly (provided one party member carry another). Don't bother with Agonizing Blast it's crap compared to push and pull with only 1 then 2 rays. Obviously be the one that learns and abuse rituals as much as possible.
- Bladesinger Wizard: great martial ability, great AC and concentration, and you're still a Wizard.
- Either Arcane TricksterRogue or Kensei Monk: probably the former because better utility, and you can still manage to take a few attacks with the help of Shield and Uncanny Dodge. On another hand, the latter is much more versatile in fight, and can tank quite nicely too with Dodge as bonus action. Bear Barbarian was considered, but the "melee only" can be problematic. Devotion Paladin (great ranged

[ezekielraiden]

I've noticed that some sort of paladin and lore bard seem to appear on many people's list for the optimized 4-person party (including mine). The druid (usually moon) is probably the next most frequent.

Paladin is a solid package, no matter what Oath you take, and certain ones are just a smidge better. Granting your Cha mod to ally saves, even with limits, is a huge benefit--bonuses to saving throws are few and far between. Oath of the Ancients gives easy access to advantage on saves vs. magic, a lovely aura. So between having unique and highly desirable bonuses, and generally solid design, it's no wonder Paladin is the preferred heavily-armored character here. (Plus, in a no-feats game, Fighter is at a significant disadvantage, as 2 extra stat boosts really aren't that valuable unless stats are randomly rolled...and even then.)

Lore Bard doubles down on what makes the Bard great: Cutting Words is a great improvement on Inspiration Dice, extra (and early) Magical Secrets is delightful, double the baseline class skills, and Peerless Skill turns your Insp. Dice up to 11. When being a Bard is already a pretty sweet deal, the subclass that says, "Hey, y'know all that stuff you like about being a Bard...how would you like to have 25% more?" is a killer deal. Plus, Bard one of three base classes that get Expertise-equivalents, the other being Rogues and Knowledge Clerics. In a no-feats game, where we want to hit the most checkboxes in the most compact space, Bard is a winner.

[T.G. Oskar]

I've noticed that some sort of paladin and lore bard seem to appear on many people's list for the optimized 4-person party (including mine). The druid (usually moon) is probably the next most frequent.


Paladin is a solid package, no matter what Oath you take, and certain ones are just a smidge better. Granting your Cha mod to ally saves, even with limits, is a huge benefit--bonuses to saving throws are few and far between. Oath of the Ancients gives easy access to advantage on saves vs. magic, a lovely aura. So between having unique and highly desirable bonuses, and generally solid design, it's no wonder Paladin is the preferred heavily-armored character here. (Plus, in a no-feats game, Fighter is at a significant disadvantage, as 2 extra stat boosts really aren't that valuable unless stats are randomly rolled...and even then.)

Lore Bard doubles down on what makes the Bard great: Cutting Words is a great improvement on Inspiration Dice, extra (and early) Magical Secrets is delightful, double the baseline class skills, and Peerless Skill turns your Insp. Dice up to 11. When being a Bard is already a pretty sweet deal, the subclass that says, "Hey, y'know all that stuff you like about being a Bard...how would you like to have 25% more?" is a killer deal. Plus, Bard one of three base classes that get Expertise-equivalents, the other being Rogues and Knowledge Clerics. In a no-feats game, where we want to hit the most checkboxes in the most compact space, Bard is a winner.

Adding to what the above poster said: the choices made often involve classes that can do several things very well.

Paladins, for example, have a great chassis: d10, martial weapons, heavy armor, Extra Attack, spellcasting, a solid nova damage option, a wonderful permanent buff and emergency healing. While spellcasting is often underused because their nova damage resource (Smites) fight for spell slots, they have a pretty solid base spell list, with great spells like Bless, Death Ward, Dispel Magic and Revivify with a ton of class-exclusive spells that are likewise solid (Crusader's Mantle, Aura of Vitality, Circle of Power), and that's without going for the Smite spells (which includes Destructive Wave). Their subclasses have spotlights where you can see how they can contribute to the party: Ancients, as said above, gets Aura of Warding, Vengeance gets spells that improve your combat potential and a free source of advantage; Conquest gets fear-based lockdown and DoT in a single package, plus Guided Strike for when you REALLY have to go nova. Even the lesser favored ones get something nice: Crown gets emergency healing and some amazing spells, Redemption gets wonderful Channel Divinity options and a great reaction ability. It's hard to think of a Paladin as a bad choice, and they are no longer ostracized by alignment issues.

Bards, on the other hand, have a ton of really useful stuff. As mentioned, they're skill-based classes that have Expertise (and alongside the Rogue, one of the only two classes that has it on its chassis), full spellcasting with some wonderful options, plus the ability to get spells from other classes through Magical Secrets which adds to its utility. Their choice of subclass allows them to define their focus, but as you may have noticed, the Lore Bard is exceptionally good because all of its features just improve the Bard class immensely. I mean...War Bards are great, but they're more secondary warriors and primary buffers; Blade Bards are more primary warriors as they use their Bardic Inspiration actively. Whisper Bards are creepy, but they're meant more as spies and assassins. Considering what the OP tries to look for (a flexible party that can cover up nearly all challenges on a dungeon), Lore Bards offer more bang for their buck.

Druids fall under this category, but by this point, you're essentially trying to complete checkmarks. An Ancients Paladin and a Lore Bard can cover a lot of ground, but they're not primary healers or CC, and you can't fail with having classes that are likewise redundant. That is why you'll look for classes that can do several things very well: Arcane Trickster Rogues are the flip side of Lore Bards, Divine Soul Sorcerers are Clerics and Sorcerers mixed while Arcana Clerics are Wizards and Clerics mixed, Moon Druids can engage in combat very easily and are nigh-unkillable, Hexblade Warlocks...well, they're a novelty, but they allow having the Warlock's short-rest benefits and Eldritch Blast on a subclass that has solid fighting skills, though your invocations and pact boon are pretty much limited. So as long as the choices you make allow you to complete checkmarks, you're pretty much set...and most classes definitely allow you to do that.

However, as mentioned, you won't see much of certain classes. For one, Fighters are a bit more focused on combat than anything else, so Champion Fighters will never see the light of day in these exercises, let alone PDKs; likewise, while I'm surprised to see a Way of the Open Hand Monk, most other Monks (read: Four Elements) will likewise stay on the bench. Barbarians are also very focused, and Rangers suffer from having a poor chassis: their early stuff is poor other than Fighting Style and Extra Attack, they need a source of damage alongside Hunter's Mark to contribute to damage, and Beastmaster was nerfed heavily because the devs feared that another creature in battle would be unbalanced, except that Wildfire Druid is tons better, Necromancer Wizards are super solid, Shadow Sorcerers and Hexblade Warlocks get temporary pets that are solid as well, and there's no excuse for Ranger beast companions to be so weak.

...Then, there's also preferences. I chose Paladin, but not Ancients Paladin, because I love Oath of the Crown (and Oath of Redemption as well). Lore Bards are fun (I've seen one in play, and they're brutally efficient), and I chose Ranger because I see its effectiveness, even though people deride it (their spell list is pretty decent, XGtE did a ton to redeem them, and they are pretty brutal with ranged attacks). Others may choose Druid because they've heard just how powerful it is (and IMO, Moon Druids are no longer top dog, since Shepherd Druids are super solid, and Wildfire Druids are just bonkers fun), and most will carry the mentality that casters rule supreme, so you'll see Clerics and Wizards as well. (I can include myself in that, as my selections all include some degree of spellcasting ability, with two partial and two full casters.)

So, in short: it's a mix of two very solid classes, filling up with classes that are flexible, and personal preference.