Is There Anything Good About Mystic Theruge Prestige Class?

[Bartmanhomer]

I feel like the Mystic Theruge prestige class is a worthless prestige class. Just tell me one good thing about that prestige class? :sigh:

[Kaleph]

It's the ideal option when playing a sharn.

[The Viscount]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/f/f3/Mystic_Theurge.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20070302074647
Got a pretty kickin' hat.

It gave us a useful name for a subtype of classes, I guess?

Like other dual casting classes, it can be entered and abused by a single classed Sha'ir (and also Savant technically, but to far less impressive results), and of the lot it's probably the easiest to enter.

[Anthrowhale]

Wizard + Abyssal Specialist + Theurgic Specialist + Ur-Priest + Mystic Theurge has a high caster level and dual-9s.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

It's a prestige class that grants you full progression in two of the most powerful base classes in the game. Sure, it puts you three levels behing the curve in both classes if you don't use any cheese, so you'll always be casting spells one or two levels below other characters, and you have a power gap just before and around taking your first prestige level. But you do get the biggest selection of spells and the most spells per day.

I'm honestly having trouble coming up with a metafor for what that's like. I want to say something like "It's like getting the base attack bonus of a fighter and a barbarian, except you get only one of them with your offhand", but I probably need to come up with a comparison involving a druid to have any chance of doing it justice.

[Buufreak]

Druid 5/ wizard 1/ MT 4/ Arcane Heirophant 10 only gets druid 19 casting because of MT, plus 6th level wizard spells, plus great class features. Alternatively, flip wizard and druid for just as much shenanigans.

[DEMON]

I feel like the Mystic Theruge prestige class is a worthless prestige class. Just tell me one good thing about that prestige class? :sigh:

1 good thing about the class is that it fully progresses spellcasting of 2 of the most powerful classes in the game.

Also, Wizard / Ur-Priest / MT...

[Eldonauran]

The best things about the Mystic Theurge (aside from the mechanical abuse you can use to milk it for everything it has) are things that aren't immediately apparent. It will never match the sheer power of the other classes, when compared one on one with each class at its peak (except that fringe cases where you abuse things, and yes, abuse is a subjective term). It sacrifices straight progression for versatility. If you are playing the game as it was originally designed, in a manner that does not render the CR system worthless to challenge you, you will find that it performs well enough.

Now, guess how many people play those kinds of games?

[Telonius]

I feel like the Mystic Theruge prestige class is a worthless prestige class. Just tell me one good thing about that prestige class? :sigh:

The Will save.

[weckar]

Wizard + Abyssal Specialist + Theurgic Specialist + Ur-Priest + Mystic Theurge has a high caster level and dual-9s.You forgot to go Aligned Spellcaster Wizard (Chaos or Evil). Simple mistake to make.

[Kelb_Panthera]

MT is certainly the weakest of the theurges but it's still got all the benefits and drawbacks of a theurge.

In exchange for delaying your top-end power and probably becoming just a little more MAD you get

more staying power from many more spell slots
greater versatility from two lists

You can also get a boon in having one side as a prepared caster and the other as a spontaneous one, if you choose to do so.


I'll elaborate.

Even with early entry tricks, you're still losing at least one level on your primary side. There's just no way around that and it's undeniably a negative. It's not a massive one though, IMO. It's not at all uncommon to lose one or even several spellcasting levels to other prestige classes so make of that what you will.

For about half your career, you're getting pretty close to double the number of spell slots you'd be getting without being a theurge. Even when you move past the theurgic stage and start to refocus on one side or the other, you've still got a pile of low-to-mid level slots that are useful for all kinds of BFC, utility, and buffing purposes even if their offensive potential is slipping.

There are ways to pick up the gems from one spell list and add them to your own but none nearly so efficient at it as being a theurge. Having two spell lists is a -huge- benefit unless they've got a huge overlap. Between cleric, druid, shaman, and shugenja on one side and wizard, wu-jen, dread necro, warmage, and beguiler on the other; you should have little trouble avoiding excess overlap.

While this one's optional, I can't recommend it enough; you can be both a spontaneous and a prepared caster at the same time and have the benefits of both. This will almost certainly make you a little more MAD but requiring two abilities instead of just one isn't such a big deal, especially when you consider that it will be a clear primary and secondary ability situation. Pick a selection of spells you believe you'll be needing regularly on the spontaenous side and have them ready at basically all times even if you're going to need them more than once in a day and, thus, leave -all- your prepared slots available for contextual choices instead of having to split it between EDC and contextual preparations.

The other trick with MT is that arcane/divine is the only theurge pairing that can be run all the way to twenty. If you're willing to jump through the hoops, you can be both a MT and an arcane hierophant and have full, dedicated caster power on both sides or nearly so.

So all in all, I'd say that MT is far from worthless even if it's not the best class in the game.

[Psyren]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/f/f3/Mystic_Theurge.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20070302074647
Got a pretty kickin' hat.

It gave us a useful name for a subtype of classes, I guess?

Like other dual casting classes, it can be entered and abused by a single classed Sha'ir (and also Savant technically, but to far less impressive results), and of the lot it's probably the easiest to enter.

I prefer the Pathfinder art personally:

https://kinggames.dk/images/miniatures/mystic_theurge_3-p.jpg

And speaking of Pathfinder, Inner Sea Magic gave us guild fame benefits (Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training) that give you boosts to your caster progression for two classes going into MT. So although you finish MT with Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 10 (i.e. 13 per side at 16), you will instead count as a Wiz 16/Clr 14 at 16. You can then finish the build out with 1 wizard level and 3 cleric levels, landing you at dual 9s.

[legomaster00156]

Worse than a straight Wizard or straight Cleric =/= bad. You do get full spellcasting progression on both, after all.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, nobody is saying a Sorcadin is worthless, and that also gets his higher-level spells three levels after a full-blown wizard/cleric/druid. Trash-talking the MT is just one of those memes you'll never see outside the optimization boards.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, nobody is saying a Sorcadin is worthless, and that also gets his higher-level spells three levels after a full-blown wizard/cleric/druid. Trash-talking the MT is just one of those memes you'll never see outside the optimization boards.

"It's a trap." That's one meme saying about Mystic Theruge.

[Biggus]

If you are playing the game as it was originally designed, in a manner that does not render the CR system worthless to challenge you, you will find that it performs well enough.

Now, guess how many people play those kinds of games?

From reading these boards, you'd get the impression very few people played like that. But personally, I've never played in an actual game where the DM allowed enough high-op cheese to render the CR system worthless, or for that matter where most of the players even tried to do so. Most players I've met want their character to be good at what they do, but they don't stay up all night trying to optimise them.

As for the value of the MT, one thing is small adventuring parties: if you're the only caster, access to both arcane and divine spells can be a literal lifesaver.

[Ramza00]

Mystic Theurge sucks for offensive power, but I can make it a case it is useful for certain builds if you load out the Cleric side with all the nice 10 min per level / 1 hour per level / 24 hour defensive buffs. Do things to get your saves in the stratosphere with things like Conviction / Tyche Touch / Benediction / Resistance Spells / Magic Vestment / Magic Weapon (for use with a Defending weapon, for use with a Spellstrike weapon which transfers your weapon bonus to saves vs spells.) So on and so on.

So many buffs you can have up and not waste your actions on, and you still have your Arcane Side to shape the battlefield, in combat buffing, killing stuff, etc.

----

Is it worth it? Well depends on the build, but if you can get these buffs with only 2 levels lost due to Ur Priest, or Early Entry then I say generally yes, Mystic Theurge is worth it for certain types of playing styles. So many of the Conjuration class spells can shape the battlefield well enough that you do not mind being 1 spell level (2 caster levels) behind, the additional amount of wizard spells, +1 to your spell dcs, slightly improved utility of spells from a higher level is not worth it.

3 levels though and the opportunity cost of no prestige class, well that is a different matter and it is harder to justify.

1 level behind (due to early entry) well Mystic Theurge looks awesome with only things like Incantatrix / Initiate of Sevenfold Veil / Thrallherd etc look better.

[weckar]

I think the MT mainly shines as a utility caster. It is breadth rather than depth of power that they specialize in.

They probably still don't do as well as an optimized shadowcraft mage, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"It's a trap." That's one meme saying about Mystic Theruge.

The argument for that goes something like this:

There's a -lot- of functional overlap between wizard and cleric (the obvious defaults) and you're losing 3 levels of progression to whichever is gonna be your primary after MT. It puts you -behind- an equal level spontaneous caster that hasn't sac'ed any casting levels.

And if you go with the obviously intended route, they're right. A wiz/cler/MT with no early entry trickery very much is a bad way to go. The overlap is a bit overstated but it's not wholly incorrect and no early entry means you are hurting your primary casting more than you need to and, worst of all, you're prepared on both sides so you gain no benefit there.

Said it in another thread, I'll say it again here, probably the best, no cheese option for MT is on a savage bard/ ur-priest/ mystic theurge/ sublime chord. You get double 9s, spontaneous and prepared casting, and draw from three lists.

If you wanna get cheesy, pick an early entry trick or two, pick your two base classes, and blend them with a mix of arcane hierophant and mystic theurge all the way to 20. You can bypass the trackless step issue with either being a bamboo spirit folk or being an elf and dipping wildrunner.

[Bartmanhomer]

The argument for that goes something like this:

There's a -lot- of functional overlap between wizard and cleric (the obvious defaults) and you're losing 3 levels of progression to whichever is gonna be your primary after MT. It puts you -behind- an equal level spontaneous caster that hasn't sac'ed any casting levels.

And if you go with the obviously intended route, they're right. A wiz/cler/MT with no early entry trickery very much is a bad way to go. The overlap is a bit overstated but it's not wholly incorrect and no early entry means you are hurting your primary casting more than you need to and, worst of all, you're prepared on both sides so you gain no benefit there.

Said it in another thread, I'll say it again here, probably the best, no cheese option for MT is on a savage bard/ ur-priest/ mystic theurge/ sublime chord. You get double 9s, spontaneous and prepared casting, and draw from three lists.

If you wanna get cheesy, pick an early entry trick or two, pick your two base classes, and blend them with a mix of arcane hierophant and mystic theurge all the way to 20. You can bypass the trackless step issue with either being a bamboo spirit folk or being an elf and dipping wildrunner.

Ok. That's sounds reasonable.

[Knaight]

It compares extremely favorably to Wizard 10/Cleric 10, and there's a point somewhere in the progression where it compares favorably to the wizard/cleric equivalent (where exactly this line is is debatable). It's just not up to the bar set by Wizard 20 or Cleric 20, both of which are tier 1 classes for a reason.

You can swap the classes out a bit and the same general pattern holds.

[Anthrowhale]

You forgot to go Aligned Spellcaster Wizard (Chaos or Evil). Simple mistake to make.

Yep, thanks :smallsmile:

[tiercel]

Part of the problem with theurge classes generally and Mystic Theurge specifically isn’t so much “they just suck” across the board, but the levels at which they suck the most.

In my experience, many campaigns spend a good deal of time between around 5th and 10th level. Before 5th level, you’re not meaningfully a theurge; at 7th level a vanilla Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 still doesn’t have any third-level spells and at 11th level doesn’t yet have fifth-level spells. Ouch. At higher levels things are arguably a little better, but if you have to play MT from the ground up, or even starting at 5th level, that’s a lot of pain before you start coming into your character concept mechanically.

Depending on your lactose tolerance you might be able to move the painful period down a bit, but how “sucky” or strong any theurge-type build will be to play depends a fair bit on just how many of their levels you have to play through; they will always be more attractive for games starting at relatively high-level play.

[Aotrs Commander]

Part of the problem with theurge classes generally and Mystic Theurge specifically isn’t so much “they just suck” across the board, but the levels at which they suck the most.

In my experience, many campaigns spend a good deal of time between around 5th and 10th level. Before 5th level, you’re not meaningfully a theurge; at 7th level a vanilla Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 still doesn’t have any third-level spells and at 11th level doesn’t yet have fifth-level spells. Ouch. At higher levels things are arguably a little better, but if you have to play MT from the ground up, or even starting at 5th level, that’s a lot of pain before you start coming into your character concept mechanically.

Depending on your lactose tolerance you might be able to move the painful period down a bit, but how “sucky” or strong any theurge-type build will be to play depends a fair bit on just how many of their levels you have to play through; they will always be more attractive for games starting at relatively high-level play.

Yes. The ONLY part about the MT that is actually BAD is the pre-requisites, because you have to play six levels before you actually get the character you wanted to play properly.

Without ANYTHING else, an MT gets 15/15 at 20th level, which translates to 8/8 spells, and because you're GOING to pick Practised Spellcaster for two of your feats, CL 19/19 which is a merely point behind the 20th level pure caster. Alturntatively, you could be 17/13 and have 9th and 7th levels spells respectively, at CL 20/17. That's basically being the SAME as a pure caster 20, plus instead of whatever class features you have, you get 7th level spells instead. (And doing that, you're only a spell level behind the pure casters and you catch up at 19th, still plenty good enough.)

The fact is doesn't have any class feature is basically irrelevant - you have access to more or less every spell in the game (especially if you are something lke an Archivist/Wizard). You don't NEED more class features, you have twice as many spells as everyone else! So many spells, in-fact, you've already not got enough actions to use the ones you have!

And, if you're a cleric or wizard part of MT, what class features are you giving up? Turn Undead (an ability who best use is to be used to do something ELSE and doesn't scale with level to do that) or about three feats. (Which is better three feats or 7-9th level spells...?) Even PF didn't give cleric or wizard any more class features that that! (And while Channel Energy is arguably better than Turn Undead, there's no much in it...)



I am a personal advocate of simply gutting the sacred cow that 3.0 decided twenty years ago beore it really knew what it was doing that PrC need to start at 5th or 6th level, and dropping the entry requirements to simply "ability to cast 1st arcane and divine spells." And let you enter the class at level 3. This ALSO has the benefit that you'll be out of it at 12th level, and thus it will slow down the advancement of the higher level spells, the ones that are more poweful and potentially game-breaking. The game ain't gonna break if you get 2/2 spells at 4th level - it actually puts you only a level behind the pure casters (which is a far better balance point, really) over those bottom levels - you come out with 5/5 casting at CL 11, and the first class you level up gets 6th level spells.

Plus, it means you don't have to cheese about with all the low-level entry stuff. (And its sure as excrement less cheesy than anything which involves the accelerated casting PrCs...)

We currently have a Bard 1/Cleric 1/MT X in my Rise of the Runelords party, and I can assure you that he is FAR from "worthless," and also has completely failed to defeat Pun-Pun at level three... (And, if you're playing with traits like we do for Golarion, you can get basically a free half-Practised Spellcaster trait at the start of the game.)



(On the flip side, I unilatally disallow any PrC which allow accelerated progress, Ur-Priest looking at you, simply BECAUSE they are so cheese (and Ur-preist in particular is terribad at 1st level and broken-good at 10th, don't think any of the others are quite that swingy), and casters DO NOT need that extra help in the slightest.

And, I mean, I am of the opinion that you SHOULDN'T be able to get to be better than a pure caster with MT, else why would anyone (especially the NPCs) be a pure caster, right? Or at the very least, a Wizard - you might as well just take the wizard's bonus feats away and give them the archivists ability to learn all the divine spells at call it a day if you make it too easy.)

[Morty]

Part of the problem with theurge classes generally and Mystic Theurge specifically isn’t so much “they just suck” across the board, but the levels at which they suck the most.

In my experience, many campaigns spend a good deal of time between around 5th and 10th level. Before 5th level, you’re not meaningfully a theurge; at 7th level a vanilla Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 still doesn’t have any third-level spells and at 11th level doesn’t yet have fifth-level spells. Ouch. At higher levels things are arguably a little better, but if you have to play MT from the ground up, or even starting at 5th level, that’s a lot of pain before you start coming into your character concept mechanically.

Depending on your lactose tolerance you might be able to move the painful period down a bit, but how “sucky” or strong any theurge-type build will be to play depends a fair bit on just how many of their levels you have to play through; they will always be more attractive for games starting at relatively high-level play.

That's pretty much the problem right here. Mystic Theurge is very impractical in the most common level range. Of course, it's a problem with most concepts that require multiclassing or PrCs.

[Quentinas]

It can be used by shadowcaster! And combining that with a noctumancer can give you level 9 spell and mysteries so yes it can be good (it's not the most powerful of dual casting class but is good)

[Willie the Duck]

I feel like the Mystic Theruge prestige class is a worthless prestige class. Just tell me one good thing about that prestige class? :sigh:

The best things about the Mystic Theurge (aside from the mechanical abuse you can use to milk it for everything it has) are things that aren't immediately apparent. It will never match the sheer power of the other classes, when compared one on one with each class at its peak (except that fringe cases where you abuse things, and yes, abuse is a subjective term). It sacrifices straight progression for versatility. If you are playing the game as it was originally designed, in a manner that does not render the CR system worthless to challenge you, you will find that it performs well enough.

Now, guess how many people play those kinds of games?

The #1 good thing about MT is that, with even a single early-entry shenanigan or other bone thrown to you, it works vaguely as-intended in games where 'those kind of games' are being played.

To expand -- this board and similar tend to paint a picture of 3e that is very different from the 3e/PF games I can get going these days. For my group to agree to play 3e/PF, there is usually a long list of what we're not going to do, something like "no scry&die, no ice assassins, no astral projections from favorably-physics'ed demiplanes, no planar minionmancy, no diplomancer, no natural spell druids, no divine meta-magic cheeze, no dipping into PrCs for a few levels to get the good parts and then ducking out, no 15-minute workday, no..." It gets pretty long if it is all spelled out, but usually it is shortened to 'no abusing the places where the edition's cracks show' and each group probably has a different criteria for that.

In that game, the MT does what it is supposed to do -- extend your spell list in exchange for power. In games where the 15 minute workday is denied, that seems like a reasonable trade-off. Particularly if the rest of the party is taking care of things like combat and places and you're there to have both knock and silence memorized more than the spell which will shut down the BBEG.

tl;dr- the MT has a place, but mostly once groups have cut into the hyper-optimized gameplay people both complain about but also treat as normal.

[Eldonauran]

From reading these boards, you'd get the impression very few people played like that. But personally, I've never played in an actual game where the DM allowed enough high-op cheese to render the CR system worthless, or for that matter where most of the players even tried to do so. Most players I've met want their character to be good at what they do, but they don't stay up all night trying to optimize them.
Well, that was kind of my point. These boards, in my experience, are not truly reflective of the gameplay that I've experienced over my (quite long) time with D&D. And most other TTRPGs that I've had a hand in playing. The issue comes with first impressions and the distillation of theory-craft that comes with these kinds of forums. Most of these high-power concepts never see the light of day, and revealing their existence to those that are new to the game, but will likely never get to play them... well, it sets a bad example of expectations.

But, that's just my opinion. Take it as you will.

[Psyren]

Without ANYTHING else, an MT gets 15/15 at 20th level, which translates to 8/8 spells, and because you're GOING to pick Practised Spellcaster for two of your feats, CL 19/19 which is a merely point behind the 20th level pure caster. Alturntatively, you could be 17/13 and have 9th and 7th levels spells respectively, at CL 20/17. That's basically being the SAME as a pure caster 20, plus instead of whatever class features you have, you get 7th level spells instead. (And doing that, you're only a spell level behind the pure casters and you catch up at 19th, still plenty good enough.)

Catching up at 19 isn't good enough though, the game is basically over by then. It's similar logic to saying Truenamer is fine because they get Gate at 20. The reality is that you're 3 levels behind in your primary progression for most of your career, and depending on the campaign you may not that be that far ahead on spells/day either; slower progression, fewer of the high-level spells you do have, and on top of that you're likely to be MAD because you'll want at least a 19 in both Int and Wis assuming the standard Wiz/Clr entry.


It can be used by shadowcaster! And combining that with a noctumancer can give you level 9 spell and mysteries so yes it can be good (it's not the most powerful of dual casting class but is good)

It also combines well with Arcane Hierophant and Ur-Priest

[Kurald Galain]

Without ANYTHING else, an MT gets 15/15 at 20th level, which translates to 8/8 spells, and because you're GOING to pick Practised Spellcaster for two of your feats, CL 19/19 which is a merely point behind the 20th level pure caster. Alturntatively, you could be 17/13 and have 9th and 7th levels spells respectively, at CL 20/17. That's basically being the SAME as a pure caster 20,
That's only relevant if your campaign is going to end precisely at level 20 (whereas most campaigns either end WAY earlier or go into epic), AND you will spend a substantial amount of time at level 20, AND you know this in advance.

Because in any other situation, the build is just going to be three levels behind. Which is not bad, mind you, but you can't claim the build is ok because it meets an arbitrary benchmark outside the campaign you're playing.

[Xasten]

I've played a standard MT up through 11th level with no early entry tricks. Just wiz3/clr3/MT5. As a DM, I've personally modified the progression to simply have 14 levels. MT players deserve 9/9 casting by 20th level, and it's not overpowered, so there's no reason not to extend the progression of the class.

It was hard, but extremely rewarding. 7th level sucks. A lot. You've got to be extremely creative with how you apply spells, and you'll be taking a much more passive role in the party as you squeeze as much utility out of lesser-known spells to try and make up for your lack of power. Once you're at 3rd level spells, the pressure eases considerably, and when you finally pick up 4th levels, the game starts to flow pretty well and your class really starts to feel like its own unique animal.

The mystic theurge has always been my favorite class as both a player and a DM. I love running theurges as my BBEG, and I think the concept is very rewarding even if playing one can be a difficult experience.

[Celestia]

I once made a build using Mystic Theurge that advanced three casting tracks and got double 9ths plus 7ths.

Granted, MT was the least questionable thing about it. :smallbiggrin:

[Karl Aegis]

You can replicate the idea of a mystic theurge with just the wizard base class, the domain wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana and the domain granted power alternate class feature from Complete Champion.

[Elkad]

If the rest of the party is a bunch of Tier3s (or worse), it fits into the party great without early entry. Dumbs you down to their level nicely.

Enjoy your near-endless spell slots. Sure, they aren't the most powerful options, but you get to spam them.

Especially if you like support characters (despite the common wisdom of "the best defense is a good offense"), or if your DM likes to dump 5-12 encounters a day on you.

[Aotrs Commander]

Catching up at 19 isn't good enough though, the game is basically over by then. It's similar logic to saying Truenamer is fine because they get Gate at 20. The reality is that you're 3 levels behind in your primary progression for most of your career, and depending on the campaign you may not that be that far ahead on spells/day either; slower progression, fewer of the high-level spells you do have, and on top of that you're likely to be MAD because you'll want at least a 19 in both Int and Wis assuming the standard Wiz/Clr entry.

It also combines well with Arcane Hierophant and Ur-Priest


That's only relevant if your campaign is going to end precisely at level 20 (whereas most campaigns either end WAY earlier or go into epic), AND you will spend a substantial amount of time at level 20, AND you know this in advance.

Because in any other situation, the build is just going to be three levels behind. Which is not bad, mind you, but you can't claim the build is ok because it meets an arbitrary benchmark outside the campaign you're playing.

Which is why, as I say, I let it be entered at level 3 (because that high entry level is that one bad thing). That way, you aren't behind in any real meaningful metric for the first (and most used) half of the game; once you then finish the class at level 12, you're and 11/11 CL character with 5th level spells and the pure caster is only one level ahead of you.

And I would not, for that matter, be adverse to players using a PrC that also advanced double casting after that - just the accelerated ones. (Or honestly, before, with a quck glance at the arcane heirophant, I would probably give that the same benefit - actually, I would with all the theurges.) So, I dunno, Wiz 1/Druid 1/Arcane Hierophant 10, MT 8 I would think acceptable (you'd end at, what, 19/19 CL at have 9th for the last theorhetical three levels.)

That said, noting that as I run APs, the projected end-level is about 17-ish, so you've done over two-thirds of the levels by the time you hit 12th anyway; and the pure casters are only just scraping to 9th, so the fact that you probably won't necessarily get there isn't that bad, really.)

[GrayDeath]

Worse than a straight Wizard or straight Cleric =/= bad. You do get full spellcasting progression on both, after all.

This.

In many of our mgames, people who dont want to voershadow noncasters too much yet really want the complexity and options of a Caster go for this route (without cheese).

Even if you dont cheese anything, it stillg ets Dual 8th level Spells, and thats nothing to sneeze at, seeing the Game has Fighters, Knights, non improved Paladins, Monks and more. ^^

Even in a pure Caster Game , the Adept of many, master of none" from prepared classes has its uses, as he allows all other casters to properly specialize and go for pwoer. Remember, this IS a Team Game.

[Psyren]

Which is why, as I say, I let it be entered at level 3 (because that high entry level is that one bad thing). That way, you aren't behind in any real meaningful metric for the first (and most used) half of the game; once you then finish the class at level 12, you're and 11/11 CL character with 5th level spells and the pure caster is only one level ahead of you.

And I would not, for that matter, be adverse to players using a PrC that also advanced double casting after that - just the accelerated ones. (Or honestly, before, with a quck glance at the arcane heirophant, I would probably give that the same benefit - actually, I would with all the theurges.) So, I dunno, Wiz 1/Druid 1/Arcane Hierophant 10, MT 8 I would think acceptable (you'd end at, what, 19/19 CL at have 9th for the last theorhetical three levels.)

That said, noting that as I run APs, the projected end-level is about 17-ish, so you've done over two-thirds of the levels by the time you hit 12th anyway; and the pure casters are only just scraping to 9th, so the fact that you probably won't necessarily get there isn't that bad, really.)

Oh I don't think it's a dealbreaker, but the power difference is noticeable. A timely Wish or a Miracle can definitely be the difference between a TPK and survival, or between failure and victory for the campaign as a whole. Could you also prevent that same TPK with judicious application of your more numerous lower-level spells? Probably, but the fact is that the power differential is noteworthy.

[Malphegor]

With a Wizard/Archivist, it allows for the most wizardy wizard that ever did wiz, because you're adding a wizard's power to a clerical wizard's power to make you...

Someone who can cast a lot of spells using basically the same method to prep.

[Mordaedil]

Mystic Theurge is fairly strong for what it wants to do, people just tend to see anything short of optimal play as unviable. As some people point out, it does spin wheels a bit when you first want to enter it, but that is almost mostly due to delayed access to 3rd level spells, which are huge for wizards, while 4th level spells are huge for clerics.

It's worth noting that if you chose to play it like a cler, normally your low BAB is going to hamper you, but divine power might just be good enough to make up for it.

[Morty]

The fact that it spins its wheels for a few levels strikes me as the exact opposite of a problem that exists in optimisation exercises rather than real play.

[Fizban]

Something interesting to note is that aside from 7th level exactly, a wiz/clr MT build has way more casting than a Bard- 3 base slots at each gained spell level, four if you spec the wizard, and the same or earlier level as the Bard does. But with actual full access to both lists. So if someone would recommend Bard on casting power alone, well. . .

In my tweaks and brew doc I have a Blended Casting ability for it that lets you take the average of your two casting stats, to manage the MAD a bit better without getting rid of it. Thinking about the level 7 problem, I could see doing a bit more. You could just make 1st level +2/+1, followed by +0/+1 at 2nd. But my initial thought was something with a nice cliche name like Reach for the Stars, just flat giving a 3rd level slot at MT 1 (allow/disallow bonuses from ability score to taste). Should patch over it nicely.

[Aotrs Commander]

The fact that it spins its wheels for a few levels strikes me as the exact opposite of a problem that exists in optimisation exercises rather than real play.

Sorry, I having trouble parsing that sentence; I'm not sure whether you're saying it's a problem for actual play or a problem for optimisation...?

[Morty]

Sorry, I having trouble parsing that sentence; I'm not sure whether you're saying it's a problem for actual play or a problem for optimisation...?

It's a problem in actual play, despite some people claiming that the PrC is only bad if you have a high standard of optimization.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's a problem in actual play, despite some people claiming that the PrC is only bad if you have a high standard of optimization.

Right, yes.

Case in point - the Bard/Cleric/MT I have in my Shackled City party is now level 8. Under RAW progression, he'd be Bard 3/Cleric 3/MT 2, so he would have only 3rd level spells just now, and he would have had to wait 75% of the time it took to play to 8th level before his character concept kicked in.

The time it took to play the first third of Shackled City? A year. (We play once a week, for about a couple of hours.)

So, that's what, maybe nine months of real time before his character concept properly kicks in, something like that.






(As it is, he's Bard 1/Cleric 1/MT 6 and perfectly happy, nor has he snapped the game in half. I mean, the party conists of two archivist, a specialist conjurer wizard, a crusader, Marksman and a rogue, if someone was going to do any snapping, it's be much more likely to be any or all of the first three...!)

[Eldonauran]

It's a problem in actual play, despite some people claiming that the PrC is only bad if you have a high standard of optimization.
The problem lies more in expectations of performance, rather than being objectively bad. A Mystic Theurge's role in the party varies quite a lot depending on what level they happen to be, and how progressed they are in the actual prestige class. Play to your strengths (or avoid your weaknesses with something else) during the times you are transitioning those areas. Even better, prepare for them in advance, should you be able (and I hope you are selective in what kind of campaign you play one in).

[Kelb_Panthera]

With a Wizard/Archivist, it allows for the most wizardy wizard that ever did wiz, because you're adding a wizard's power to a clerical wizard's power to make you...

Someone who can cast a lot of spells using basically the same method to prep.

That might be the worst pairing for MT. You still get the (massively) expanded spell list and extra slots but the two classes are so close to the same thing and offer so little on the front end that you may as well have just gone straight archivist. The redundancy is almost funny in how much of it there is. At least put wu-jen on the arcane side so you can get some unique spells. Even with cleric/ wizard you still get turning.

If MAD is what you're worried about, beguiler and archivist makes a good pairing. Lots of defensive goodies on the beguiler available as long as you've got the slots. Decent BFC too. Offensive options on that side are kind of limited and it puts you behind an extra level if you don't hit it with the early entry but might still be worth it even then.

If you want MT to be greater than the sum of its parts, those parts need to differ from one another at least a little.

[Eldonauran]

If you want MT to be greater than the sum of its parts, those parts need to differ from one another at least a little.My favorite pairing for the Mystic Theurge is the Sorcerer/Druid in 3.5E, and Sorcerer/Shaman in Pathfinder. Yes, spontaneous caster on one side makes the progression even more difficult but the pure flexibility I get (especially in Pathfinder) in my spell list and class abilities more than make up for any other issues I have.

[Mordaedil]

Needing to be level 8 before you can take your first level in mystic theurge is way worse than needing to be level 6.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Needing to be level 8 before you can take your first level in mystic theurge is way worse than needing to be level 6.

If you're coming in off of the default, expected track of wiz/clr then you're taking MT 1 at level 7. If one or the other side is spontaneous then it becomes 8. If both sides do, then it's 9.

If you're using early entry, however, you can be in as early as 4, regardless of which classes you use as bases. If that's just a bit too far, then you can still do <prepared divine>/ sorcerer and start at 7 as a kobold that's performed the greater draconic right of passage.

In any case, starting MT at 6 is only doable with early entry on one side or by deliberately delaying with early entry on both.

[Kurald Galain]

the Bard/Cleric/MT I have in my Shackled City party is now level 8. Under RAW progression, he'd be Bard 3/Cleric 3/MT 2, so he would have only 3rd level spells just now, and he would have had to wait 75% of the time it took to play to 8th level before his character concept kicked in.
How's that? If his character concept is using both kinds of magic, a Bard 1 / Cleric 1 already does that at level two...

[Aotrs Commander]

How's that? If his character concept is using both kinds of magic, a Bard 1 / Cleric 1 already does that at level two...

"Your concept starts off at level two then under-performs mechanically for four more levels (equating to six months of real gaming time) and only finally marginally improves" is not, for me as DM, an acceptable state of affairs. (In the same way that all of 3.5s noncasters outside ToB are not an acceptable state of affairs; which is why the noncasters first and foremost have had a steady series of revisions and upgrades the more we've played.)


"Suck now, OP later" (the heart of the AD&D wizard) is a poor design decision (and for once, my other system of choice, Rolemaster is by vanilla RAW worse in that regard for spellcasters and with a VASTLY later OP.) MT's "suck now, be pretty okay later" is not any better when by just killing a sacred cow, you get BETTER game balance at low level and higher level -faster progression at low level, where it matters most, and slower (assuming you don't do something else) with the higher level spells later.



As I've said before, the only reason I can see for all PrC being gated behind levels 5-10 is largel the arbitary one of the 3.0 game designers not grasping at that start what is was they'd actually created, which at it's base core, is by far the best mechanical character construction kit, like, period. And were trying to put in said arbitary restrictions to try and make the game like AD&D where class was a defined flavour and not an abtract set of mechanics to be flavoured to taste. (Which is, reputedly, why alignment restrictions and multiclass penalties in particular existed - and they were the FIRST thing I through out1.) But 3.X is basically LEGO with game mechanics. It is why I have stuck with 3.x despite deciding it needed improvement (to the tune you-don't-want-to-know how much work I've put in on that).



Stuff like MT I will argue shouldn't really be called "prestige" classes at all; call 'em "hybrid clases" or "advanced classes" and let' em do what they are supposed to - let you play a hybrid character from (almost) the get-go. (And the only reason not to make them a straight base class is that as an add-on, they inherently allows more flexibility than a set progression, as even I balk at trying to make an individual hybrid class for every combination of the 47 base classes I have for 3.Aotrs...)




1Hell, I summarily tossed out crap like that (race level limtis, dual-class humans verses multiclass everyone else) in AD&D, I wasn't going to give more than a eyeglow roll in passiing and a "yeah, not doing that" 3.0 and onwards2.

2The one and only AD&D campaign I ran in anger (which transitioned into 3.0 as soon as it came out consisted of a halfling thief, a human fighter, a human druid/wizard, a sylph thief/wizard and a human fighter/cleric)...

[Kurald Galain]

O
"Your concept starts off at level two then under-performs mechanically for four more levels (equating to six months of real gaming time) and only finally marginally improves" is not, for me as DM, an acceptable state of affairs.

That is clear.

But does it? At level one, it's the same as everybody else. At level two, you're actually ahead of a single class (Bard 1 / Cleric 1 is actually better than Bard 2 OR Cleric 2...) At level three, you're basically tied. At level four, you're ahead again (2nd level cleric spells AND 1st level bard spells trumps what a single-class character gets). Level five I'd call a tie again; and, ok, at level six and seven you're going to underperform.

Still, that's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Of course, a more elegant way of playing this would be an archetype instead of a prestige class.

[Elves]

If you're using early entry, however, you can be in as early as 4, regardless of which classes you use as bases.

You can enter at level 3 with inspire greatness + psychic reformation. The question remains what to do after MT is over, but I guess if nothing else that level you save could get you double 9s at 20th with legacy champion. Although the standard wiz/mindbender/urpriest/mt build is probably better than that...so I'll leave best use of level 3 entry to people who actually know how to build theurges.

For a druid/sorc aiming for arcane hierophant it doesn't make any difference though since you need druid 3 for AH. It asks for trackless step as a class feature so there's no cheesing that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For a druid/sorc aiming for arcane hierophant it doesn't make any difference though since you need druid 3 for AH. It asks for trackless step as a class feature so there's no cheesing that.

If you're willing to be an elf, the wildrunner prestige class gets trackless step at 1st level. Then you don't have to be a druid on your divine side unless you really want to.

It's also arguable that being a bamboo spirit folk from OA should count since they have trackless step as a racial feature. "As a class feature" is atypical wording for such a prerequisite and when races of the wild was printed the only two obvious sources (and still two of very, very few) for trackless step were wildrunner and druid, OA's spirit folk likely having been entirely forgotten.

[Elves]

Sor1/divine caster1/mt7/wildrunner 1/arcane hierophant 10 gets you sorcerer 9ths so for that particular class combination it's good.

I'm aware of bamboo spirit folk and they'd definitely be a thematic race for such a character, it's just unclear how pedantically to take the "class feature" wording.

[Endarire]

MT can be applied to a wide variety of casting classes. You could go FirstClass1/SecondClass3 or 4 and be only a bit behind a full caster in your main class. MT is a class that requires a definite major purpose for the character, but can be useful in the right context. Similar notes apply to other theurgic caster classes.

[Morty]

I guess in the interest of fairness, it's not so much Mystic Theurge that's poor but multiclassing casters is very inefficient in general. Or... well, multiclassing period is a bit of a minefield. MT, like Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, is just a band-aid on the fact that simply splitting your levels between two casting classes or a casting and non-casting one is even worse.

[Willie the Duck]

I guess in the interest of fairness, it's not so much Mystic Theurge that's poor but multiclassing casters is very inefficient in general. Or... well, multiclassing period is a bit of a minefield. MT, like Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, is just a band-aid on the fact that simply splitting your levels between two casting classes or a casting and non-casting one is even worse.

True, although later 'multiclass PrCs' like Arcane Hierophant do a better job of threading that needle. If it were not such that single class tier 1-2 spellcasting was such an overwhelming advantage, things like AH would be a pretty good choice (at least up through getting L10 in the PrC). MT, otoh, gives nothing except the two spellcasting progressions.

[ShurikVch]

Mystic Theruge is a Core PrC - thus, playable in Core-only game

[Segev]

Even with minimal shenanigans, Wizard/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge is a reasonably good combination. The MT progression on Ur-Priest means you hit 9s in that, and PROBABLY 9s in Wizard if you're patient. And it has the added benefit of thematically being an arcanist who delved into taboo ways of stealing power from the gods through his understanding of magic.

[Ramza00]

Sor1/divine caster1/mt7/wildrunner 1/arcane hierophant 10 gets you sorcerer 9ths so for that particular class combination it's good.

I'm aware of bamboo spirit folk and they'd definitely be a thematic race for such a character, it's just unclear how pedantically to take the "class feature" wording.

You can not enter Mystic Theurge till 4th level due to the skill requirements. Thus you need 3 levels prior to Mystic Theurge.

[Elves]

I mentioned this above. You hire a level 9+ bard and a level 7+ psion. The bard uses inspire greatness on you while the psion uses psychic reformation on you. Your +2 HD from the bardic music increase your skill ranks cap when you reassign your skill points. It's an old way of meeting skill requirements.

(And think of what a kitschily dramatic scene this makes. The bard is playing cool music to inspire you to greatness as you rearrange your mind.)

As a 2nd level character it's pretty expensive, but should be doable. Psychic ref costs at least 425gp, and inspire greatness is gained at the same level as 5th level spells so you can expect it to cost around the same, meaning at least 450gp. Then there may be charges for the inconvenience of bringing the two casters together. So let's say it's about 1k under decent circumstances (the bard and psion are no more than a couple levels above the minimum, and they're close enough that it's not a major hassle for them to meet up). If you're close to level 3 you'll have about 2k in wealth. So the affordability depends on how liquid that wealth is, but if you can reach a large city and rely on small loans from the rest of your party to make up for unfavorable variables, it's a very reasonable plan.

Of course in some campaigns you won't have the luxury of traveling to or being in a big city, and in some settings like Eberron even mid-level NPCs are supposed to be very rare. So in those cases you shouldn't play a build that hinges on this.


There's also lycanthropy but that's more impractical. And there are other methods I think.


On that topic, does anyone know of mystic theurge builds that would benefit from level 3 entry?

[Segev]

On that topic, does anyone know of mystic theurge builds that would benefit from level 3 entry?

Could put you only 1 level behind in both classes, meaning a wizard/cleric/MT at ECL 4 is casting 2nd level spells in both. ECL 12 is casting 5th level spells in both.

It might enable easier entry into Fuchluchan Lyrist, too, since you could advance two casting classes required with it earlier. Provides a good outro to the class if you get into FL before MT 10, ensuring you can do full caster advancement of both classes from ECL 2 to ECL 20.

On the note of breaking skill caps, some readings of Bloodline Levels will let you do it, too. Take 3 bloodline levels at level 1, and your skill cap when you finally gain your second actual HD (and level) are 3 higher than normal. Questionable, but depending on the DM's reading, could work.

[Elves]

Yeah, but bloodline levels are pretty ugly and borked.

[Segev]

Yeah, but bloodline levels are pretty ugly and borked.

So are questions of reassigning skill ranks to temporary HD caps and then losing those caps. :smallamused:

It's all about what your DM thinks is kosher and what he balks at, and what you have the resources to pull off in-game.

[Bartmanhomer]

So in a rating of 1-5? How would you rate the Mystic Theruge? :smile:

[Elves]

So are questions of reassigning skill ranks to temporary HD caps and then losing those caps. :smallamused:

Aw, I think they're quite different though. The HD cap thing is a clean and clever interaction between two very kosher abilities. Meanwhile bloodlines are their own weird independent set of variant rules that are best left in the bin.

(And I don't think it's too contradictory to say that good variant rules that reach a certain level of community acceptance can be treated like standard rules -- UA class variants for example -- while ones that suck can be relegated. Just like unarmed swordsage is practically a staple while arcane swordsage gets laughs.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

So in a rating of 1-5? How would you rate the Mystic Theruge? :smile:

3.5

It's a bit better than most prestige classes but weaker than others in its same category. Makes for a fairly powerful, versatile character too. Just don't go in on the presumed track since its not a good fit for the PrC.

[Ramza00]

Mystic Theurge is 2.5 to 4.25 out of 5 depending on its ingredients with base classes, early entry, and so on.

Note in my scale a 3.0 is not necessary average for many base classes if you stick with them are 3.5 to 4.5 depending on which one we are talking about.

[elonin]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the paperwork on two full progression casting classes will mean taking even more time. Also, many of these builds will be MAD due to the multiple casting attributes. One thing that came up in a pathfinder game i played in that is relevant here is double the time to prep spells every day. Also, a lot of people talk about these issues from a theoretical optimization pov but I haven't played a game where that was exactly relevant.

[Ramza00]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the paperwork on two full progression casting classes will mean taking even more time. Also, many of these builds will be MAD due to the multiple casting attributes. One thing that came up in a pathfinder game i played in that is relevant here is double the time to prep spells every day. Also, a lot of people talk about these issues from a theoretical optimization pov but I haven't played a game where that was exactly relevant.

Make your divine side self buffs or ally buffs that last 10 mins per level, or 1 hour per level. Especially with rods of extend lesser.

For example Conviction is 10 min per level as a 1st level spell or a 3rd level spell as a mass version.

It gives +2 to saves as a moral bonus at level 1, +3 at cl 6, +4 at cl 12, and +5 at cl 18.

Thus at caster level 9 your duration is 90 mins per level, with a rod of extend this is 3 hours per level. Cast this 3 times a day with a rod of extend lesser and you have 9 hours of buffs.

Same idea with other spells that are 10 mins per level, 1 hour per level, 24 hours and so on.

-----

Yes it is more book keeping and set up prior to actually playing with your friends, but the amount of work you do while playing with your friends is not much harder.


In fact this is kind of a benefit of Mystic Theurge ending at level 10 and thus Caster Level 11 (early entry) or 13 without using a second prestige class. There is a limit on the amount of spells and buffs to track.
Level 7 to 9 spells are either all day buffs or used to kill things, and you only have some actions in combat to kill things so the benefits of having a second level 7 to 9 spell casting class actually is not that helpful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the paperwork on two full progression casting classes will mean taking even more time.

That's just practice and planning. Twice as long only matters if the normal time it takes you to do your spells is pushing towards too long in the first place. If you're a wizard or archivist then you don't even have to prepare all of those slots at the beginning of the day anyway; just prepare your combat options and then fill in as needed during the day.

If, on the other hand, you mean general spell selection on character gen for a character starting at a level well into MT, then yeah. There's no getting around that taking near to twice as long but it's still just a matter of knowing the spell lists and selecting what you already know/ think will be good.


Also, many of these builds will be MAD due to the multiple casting attributes.

Meh. MAD for two abilities isn't that big a deal. If you pick one side for offense and one for defense/utility then you can mitigate the worst aspect of MADness potentially pulling down your DCs since your defense/utility side only needs to get the 10+level for actually casting the spells. You don't really care about bonus slots since you've got slots for days anyway.



One thing that came up in a pathfinder game i played in that is relevant here is double the time to prep spells every day.

Depends on your classes, in 3.5 at least. Prepared casters need an hour to prepare but spontaneous ones only need an additional 15 minutes so if you're spont/prep (which I still recommend) you only need 125% of the normal prep time.


Also, a lot of people talk about these issues from a theoretical optimization pov but I haven't played a game where that was exactly relevant.

It can be easy to forget the difference between theorycraft and actual play sometimes. The latter tends to be far messier and less predictable than a lot of people like to acknowledge.

[Aotrs Commander]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the paperwork on two full progression casting classes will mean taking even more time.


Yes it is more book keeping and set up prior to actually playing with your friends, but the amount of work you do while playing with your friends is not much harder.

...

Uh, I'm kind of at a loss how the time it takes to fill in your spell memorisation sheets is significant in any way such that doubling it is relevant. (I mean, unless you don't have a spell mem sheet as part of your character sheet, but that's just daft for ANY caster because you're needless wasting everyone's time including your own if you have to write it all down every time. Look, I can send people PDFs of the ones I have, even...)

I mean, like, unless you are setting you the character for the first time at high level, you're only going to be adding one or two spells to said sheet(s) when you level up to your standard adventuring load-out.

If you're changing your entire spell load-out every game day (and not, having, y'know, one spell mem sheet for standard uses plus a few occasional tweaks) and one for downtime (if that's a thing) and taking so long about that you're actually holding the game up (and, like, you have to hold the game up to do it, rather than the game carry on while you're finishing up)... Well, first of all, why are you changing your entire spell load-out every day in the first place, that should not be necessary; so you should be doing it if you only enjoy doing that explicitly and if you enjoy doing that, you already probably know the system inside out and the job shouldn't take any time anyway.

(And frack help the group if someone's away and you have to handle a second character. I dunno abut you guys, but no-one in my group couldn't handle two full casters at once if they have to - and some of us (funniliy enough the ones that DM) find handling that to be, like, trivial compared to running multiple full casters on the monster side.)


Also, many of these builds will be MAD due to the multiple casting attributes. One thing that came up in a pathfinder game i played in that is relevant here is double the time to prep spells every day. Also, a lot of people talk about these issues from a theoretical optimization pov but I haven't played a game where that was exactly relevant.

In the times we have had MTs that are double-prep casters, it has been a non-issue to the point I'm genuinely stunned anyone would think it COULD be an issue.



As for tracking buffs, that is an issue that is not related to MTs but party set-up to start with. If your party regularly gets 3-5 buffs off the cleric and the bard (as opposed to the bard/cleric), you'll have just as much to keep track of.

Our solution was first - party buff sheet (just tock it off when it's up) and secondl,y we put little stands with the buffs on in front of the DM screen.

Another solution I've heard talked about it to just have little plastic tokens or something of different colours you just hand out (different colours for different bonus types) to people when the spell is cast.

Online, it ought to be even easier, PBP you could just post the buffs and copy/paste into a post as needed (or, just like, look at earliernposts?) and from what I've seen of Roll20 on other people's videos, if it doesn't have a dedicated feature for that (and if it doesn't and it was designed during the 3.5/PF era and not the 5E era, why not, Roll20?) just, like put it on screen or something in the corner, again with coloured dots or something.

[Elves]

It might enable easier entry into Fuchluchan Lyrist, too, since you could advance two casting classes required with it earlier.

Basically, early entry is good for any theurge build that's advancing non-fast-casting-track classes and needs to take a dip to qualify for another PRC after mystic theurge. (The build in the post below this also fits.)

Other than that, I can't think of a better use than arcane 1/divine 1/theurge10/legacy champion 6/arcane PRC 1/divine PRC 1.

But the only advantage you're getting for early entry here (as opposed to arcane2/divine1/theurge10/legacy champion6/arcane+1) is that you delay the second lost CL until the very end of the game and can potentially get an additional level of arcane caster PRC benefits.

[bean illus]

FavoredSoul2/Sorc1/MT10/Wildrunner1/ArcaneHeiroph6

SAD spontaneous, 9/8

[Kelb_Panthera]

FavoredSoul2/Sorc1/MT10/Wildrunner1/ArcaneHeiroph6

SAD spontaneous, 9/8

Swap Favored soul for DLCS' mystic and you're on to something. FS isn't SAD by itself though.

[Elves]

Doesn't Dragonlance mystic use Wis?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Doesn't Dragonlance mystic use Wis?

So it does. I was going from memory. FS is still MAD though. It doesn't really matter all that much. Shugenja is straight charisma (checked this time) if it matters that much to you.

[Elves]

Another cute theurge along these lines could be wizard 2/urban druid 1/mystic theurge 7/heartfire fanner 1/fochlucan 9

or with skill cheesing, wiz1/urb druid 1/theurge 7/fanner 1/fochlucan 10.

It has an awful cost of 4 feats (2 for evasion, 2 for HF) but sidesteps the trackless step requirement of arcane hierophant, gets 14th or 15th level bardic music on top of double 9s, and doesn't lose a CL like wildrunner or prestige bard.

With two flaws + human it could be ok, if prereq feat reforming is kosher it's pretty good.

For an extra feat (Bardic Tutelage to learn Druidic), you could swap urban druid for ancestral speaker cleric (Dragon 311).

[tiercel]

...If you're changing your entire spell load-out every game day (and not, having, y'know, one spell mem sheet for standard uses plus a few occasional tweaks) and one for downtime (if that's a thing) and taking so long about that you're actually holding the game up (and, like, you have to hold the game up to do it, rather than the game carry on while you're finishing up)... Well, first of all, why are you changing your entire spell load-out every day in the first place, that should not be necessary; so you should be doing it if you only enjoy doing that explicitly and if you enjoy doing that, you already probably know the system inside out and the job shouldn't take any time anyway.

Potential counterpoint: spell choice “analysis paralysis” is most likely to come up on the divine side, especially standard casters like Cleric or Druid which get to choose every day from every spell ever printed in any book allowed in your game — doubly so if your divine side is your utility-spell, I-don’t-care-as-much-about-DCs-because-I’m-mostly-playing-offense-on-my-arcane-side, side where your spells are more likely to be tailored to the situation than if you were playing only a divine caster.

This is not to say a player shouldn’t generally have a standard loadout that just gets tweaked for any given adventuring day, but it is to say I could understand why a theurge character could potentially be more vulnerable to prep-time considerations.

[bean illus]

Potential counterpoint: spell choice “analysis paralysis” is most likely to come up on the divine side, especially standard casters like Cleric or Druid which get to choose every day from every spell ever printed in any book allowed in your game — doubly so if your divine side is your utility-spell, I-don’t-care-as-much-about-DCs-because-I’m-mostly-playing-offense-on-my-arcane-side, side where your spells are more likely to be tailored to the situation than if you were playing only a divine caster.

This is not to say a player shouldn’t generally have a standard loadout that just gets tweaked for any given adventuring day, but it is to say I could understand why a theurge character could potentially be more vulnerable to prep-time considerations.

Good reason to consider all spontaneous.
:p


FavoredSoul1/Sorc2/MT10/Wildrunner1/ArcaneHeiroph6

SAD spontaneous, 9/8

Use versatile spellcaster and heighten spell to up the firepower just a bit.

[CharonsHelper]

Part of the problem with theurge classes generally and Mystic Theurge specifically isn’t so much “they just suck” across the board, but the levels at which they suck the most.

In my experience, many campaigns spend a good deal of time between around 5th and 10th level. Before 5th level, you’re not meaningfully a theurge; at 7th level a vanilla Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 still doesn’t have any third-level spells and at 11th level doesn’t yet have fifth-level spells. Ouch. At higher levels things are arguably a little better, but if you have to play MT from the ground up, or even starting at 5th level, that’s a lot of pain before you start coming into your character concept mechanically.

Depending on your lactose tolerance you might be able to move the painful period down a bit, but how “sucky” or strong any theurge-type build will be to play depends a fair bit on just how many of their levels you have to play through; they will always be more attractive for games starting at relatively high-level play.

Yep. If it were an MMO focused on max level play, MT would be much better. But I've done at least 90 in the first 8-9 levels, as 3.x's rules start to break down around 10-11 anyway.

[vasilidor]

are their not skill requirements for mystic theurge that keep you out until at least level 5? nope level 3 after checking book. unless you know a way to get 6 ranks in something before level 3. in pathfinder it is three ranks each. also happy halloween.

[ericgrau]

It's good for what it is, dual casting that was available before a lot of books were. Even then it was weak up front, at least until you got 3rd level spells. By the time you get to 5th level spells and up it started to pull ahead (vs early low op core single casters): Lower level BFC spells do almost as well as high level ones, you can use low level utility scrolls from both classes, you have a larger spell list for crafting, and you can pull unique combos like contingent resurrection. That's around level 12 and higher. Waiting 11 levels for it is a bit painful though. Or at least to level 8 just to barely keep up.

If you're playing higher optimization then really almost all of the PHB and DMG falls behind in power and need a boost. Even if you're playing a single classed wizard, the spells and ACFs could be from other books. And no, gate chaining, and other tricks no DM allows don't count.

I played one. It was a struggle early on but even before level 8 it was fun and playable. Like I said scrolls, low level BFC like web and other such simple tricks help. And in high optimization there are things like early entry of course.

[Hellpyre]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I assumed at least some of the people mentioning doubled preparation time were referring to the need to spend two seperate one-hour blocks to do morning spells, thus delaying each adventuring day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I assumed at least some of the people mentioning doubled preparation time were referring to the need to spend two seperate one-hour blocks to do morning spells, thus delaying each adventuring day.

Like I said, that's only an issue for a MT that is prepared on both sides. Even then, if you go to sleep an hour ahead of everyone else, you'll have that extra hour in the morning while everyone's still asleep and not have to worry about it.

You want fun; try being an incarnate/ chameleon that has to take an hour each for soulmelds, setting your aptitude focuse, and preparing arcane and divine spells. Fortunately, neither soulmelds nor preparing aptitude focus actually cares about what happened 8 hours previous so a ring of sustenance covers the issue nicely.

[Lans]

One good thing about MT is that it forces you to dumpster dive for only the absolute best spells. 5d6 fireball is not going to cut it at level 8

[Odin's Eyepatch]

How would the MT compare if instead of delaying casting by -3/-3, you houserule it to delaying casting by -2/-4? Ignoring RAW prerequisites and wording, do you think that a caster with -2/-4 delayed casting be more or less powerful than the standard -3/-3 entry?

Example: A 8th wizard/cleric/MT would cast as a 6th level Wizard and a 4th level Cleric (instead of 5th level in both).

[Emperor Ing]

I have a wizard/ur-priest Mystic Theurge. Being able to progress both, simultaneously, has allowed for some pretty hilarious shenanigans, with being able to cast 8th level cleric spells at level 12.

[Segev]

One good thing about MT is that it forces you to dumpster dive for only the absolute best spells. 5d6 fireball is not going to cut it at level 8

If you have only one of the two that really needs the CL, you can fix it with a feat. Practiced Spellcaster will add up to 4 to your CL for one class if it doesn't bring your CL above your HD.

[Lans]

If you have only one of the two that really needs the CL, you can fix it with a feat. Practiced Spellcaster will add up to 4 to your CL for one class if it doesn't bring your CL above your HD.

I was playing it before that was printed

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I like (well, optimization-like at least) the double spontaneous option. You may need twice as many spells to solve your problems as a properly prepared wizard does, but you have roughly three times as many spells, so as long as the tank can hold you're still ahead in action economy. And you're ahead of a regular sorcerer in both total power and diversity.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I like (well, optimization-like at least) the double spontaneous option. You may need twice as many spells to solve your problems as a properly prepared wizard does, but you have roughly three times as many spells, so as long as the tank can hold you're still ahead in action economy. And you're ahead of a regular sorcerer in both total power and diversity.

I mean... I see what you're saying but I wouldn't seriously consider that without early entry shenangans. Being 4 levels behind on both sides and getting the next spell level 5 levels behind the straight, prep'ed caster -hurts-.

Still think I'll stick with spont/prep for my theurges.

[Bartmanhomer]

You know what I'm thinking of using that class for my female lesser grow wizard/cleric in future D&D 3.5 games. :smile:

[mouser13]

Though it is a house rule that you get spells for leveling up on prestige classes. If your archivist wizard you get 4 spells per level instead of two.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Though it is a house rule that you get spells for leveling up on prestige classes. If your archivist wizard you get 4 spells per level instead of two.

That's -technically- true but it's almost certainly the single most common housrule, period. Also the most common housrule people don't even realize they're making.

Not every class that has "+1 to existing class" says the same thing for what that +1 means. Some mention caster level, some mention spells known, some mention spell slots, almost none mention all but they -do- all remind you not to include any of the class' named features in that, such as familiar benefits or turn undead progression. People homogenize it to mean all of the elements of the spellcasting feature both for consistency and simplicity, often without realizing that's what they're doing.

It's a pretty safe bet that it will be the case in the vast majority of games.

[Jay R]

I mean... I see what you're saying but I wouldn't seriously consider that without early entry shenangans.


OK, I know about Precocious Apprentice for the arcane side. Are there any straightforward shenanigans to reduce the level needed for the divine side?

[Darg]

Sooo, apparently it's common to full rest in dungeons? I don't know about any one else, but my groups can get up to 20+ fights per day or as little as only one. As others have mentioned, mystic theurge is a prc to provide variety and increases the number of spells per day available.

Nobody has yet mentioned the cleric domains, delivering divine spells by familiar, free armor proficiency, and other goodies. I have never played a game where these things can't be highly valuable. If your table allows dragon magic, you can really take advantage of this prc with just Alternate Source Spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

OK, I know about Precocious Apprentice for the arcane side. Are there any straightforward shenanigans to reduce the level needed for the divine side?

The improved sigil (krau) trick works for both sides if you don't mind giving up your race choice. It's probably the easiest too. It really does just amount to be an illumian and take the feat.

Most of the early entry tricks will work equally well for either an arcane or divine caster but the krau trick is one feat and all upside unless you wanted to use a different race. That is, basically anything that lets a spell count as a higher level than it actually is without increasing the spell level; DMM heighten, earth spell, sanctum spell, etc. It's just a question of how many feats you're willing and able to dump for it.


Sooo, apparently it's common to full rest in dungeons? I don't know about any one else, but my groups can get up to 20+ fights per day or as little as only one. As others have mentioned, mystic theurge is a prc to provide variety and increases the number of spells per day available.

Long dungeons, with a bit of prep' after finding a suitable location; yeah, taking a night is to be expected. In a dungeon you could reasonably get through in a single day with a bit of care and conservative resource management, not so much.

20+ in a day seems a bit extreme on the other side. Maybe if you're pulling some persistance shenanigans or if nobody is playing a class that's wholly dependent on per day resources...


Nobody has yet mentioned the cleric domains, delivering divine spells by familiar, free armor proficiency, and other goodies. I have never played a game where these things can't be highly valuable. If your table allows dragon magazine, you can really take advantage of this prc with just Alternate Source Spell.

Domains lose a lot of luster when your cleric level for them isn't advancing and, personally, I didn't want to presume either class for the MT bases because there are -so- many pairings. Familiars can be cool if you get one in the first place and don't trade it away for something else.

Also, fixed error in bold in the quote.

[Darg]

20+ in a day seems a bit extreme on the other side. Maybe if you're pulling some persistance shenanigans or if nobody is playing a class that's wholly dependent on per day resources...

To be fair, my groups tend to play as adventurers, rather than purely bookwormy wizards who cast a couple times then throw pebbles while knowing the DM won't have a random patrol or hidden enemies gut them from behind. The fights can get hectic and when you have 6 weapon swingers instead of 4 or nearly twice as many slightly lower level spells it is really a benefit when quantity is more valuable than quality. I can't say that the fights are particularly difficult when there are more of them, having to stay on your toes though and having to constantly try and figure out how to ration spells over a random amount of encounters is kind of what I expect from an adventure.


Domains lose a lot of luster when your cleric level for them isn't advancing and, personally, I didn't want to presume either class for the MT bases because there are -so- many pairings. Familiars can be cool if you get one in the first place and don't trade it away for something else.

Also, fixed error in bold in the quote.

Thanks for the fix.

Your domains add a domain spell slot, possibly provide benefit to your arcane spells, make you a better weapon swinger, or be just flavor. Those extra domain spells can come in handy too, freeing arcane slots or even reducing the spells level to be obtained early. That's on top of the fact you get heavy armor and shield proficiencies for free with all that free AC.

Using other classes beyond wizard and cleric provide other benefits too and provide truly varied roleplay experience. We had one MT that was a sorcerer and archivist that was obsessed in his pursuit of divine power, believing that his path to godhood was using divine power as his own. This was of course after his pompous face was bashed in a few times by a random wandering priest.

[vasilidor]

level 5 is the first i think it can be done by. 3 levels of cleric, wizard or sorcerer with precocious apprentice feat. it gives you enough levels for the skill requirements and settles the need for all spellcasting.
even if you could find a way to get an early second level divine spell you still have skill requirements which pin you to level 4 as the earliest entry level.

[Darg]

Using Ultimate Magus as an example, it's been my experience that houseruling that only needing spell levels 2/1 or 1/2 isn't a game breaker and let's the character shine 2-3 levels sooner. My experiences say it isn't necessary, but it is nice being able to play your character the way you want sooner. AD&D definitely has many charms and multiclassing is one of them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be fair, my groups tend to play as adventurers, rather than purely bookwormy wizards who cast a couple times then throw pebbles while knowing the DM won't have a random patrol or hidden enemies gut them from behind. The fights can get hectic and when you have 6 weapon swingers instead of 4 or nearly twice as many slightly lower level spells it is really a benefit when quantity is more valuable than quality. I can't say that the fights are particularly difficult when there are more of them, having to stay on your toes though and having to constantly try and figure out how to ration spells over a random amount of encounters is kind of what I expect from an adventure.

Even if I presume that you do have a 6 man party and your casters are gishy, you still have HPs to burn through. 20+ encounters are going to demand you fight -very- conservatively and with serious coordination on that ground alone. AoE attacks can still mess you up even then. I could also presume that everyone is passably stealthy and that you typically catch enemies by surprise rather than the other way around but even then 20+ encounters, presumablly with multiple foes, wherein you're rarely spotted is a stretch too.

I've got no problem with the meat-grinder approach. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, just that it's well out of the ordinary and the system's fairly explicit expectation of 4 encounters a day with a 4 man party typically lasting about 5 rounds.

I'm also familiar with the expression that "quantity has a quality of its own," and don't disagree but you're talking about enough encounters that you're typically not casting more than one spell in each one and often not even that unless you are a dual casting theurge of some kind. I pretty much have to presume you're getting a -lot- of mileage out of reserve feats.




Thanks for the fix.

No problem. There's -way- too much material to expect anyone to remember all of it, especially if you include dragon magazine or other third party sources.


Your domains add a domain spell slot, possibly provide benefit to your arcane spells, make you a better weapon swinger, or be just flavor. Those extra domain spells can come in handy too, freeing arcane slots or even reducing the spells level to be obtained early. That's on top of the fact you get heavy armor and shield proficiencies for free with all that free AC.

Armor proficiencies are worthless unless your arcane side can cast in armor and even then it'll only be light unless you're willing to take the chance that your spells might just fizzle at a crucial moment. You can get around it with specialized gear but that ain't cheap.

Domain spells are still spells. Of course they're useful but nobody's brought them up because they're just presumed with any cleric. It's the one part of the domain that -doesn't- get left in the dust by a MT unless the granted power is just a bonus feat or a couple extra class skills. Bonus feats are certainly nice. I'd imagine that a cleric headed toward MT would most likely pick ones that just give them flat bonuses to their casting ability unless they actually pick a god that isn't a magic god as a flavor thing.

You didn't mention them this time around but familiars are kinda iffy if you're not prioritizing them. I don't know about you but I'm not super thrilled with the idea of a fragile little 200xp per level time-bomb running around a battlefield. Yeah, I can buff it but that's spell slots I don't have for other things. Not much point in getting that extra quantity if I'm just gonna have to spend a big chunk of it on using it effectively.


Using other classes beyond wizard and cleric provide other benefits too and provide truly varied roleplay experience. We had one MT that was a sorcerer and archivist that was obsessed in his pursuit of divine power, believing that his path to godhood was using divine power as his own. This was of course after his pompous face was bashed in a few times by a random wandering priest.

True enough but all those benefits tend to be pretty marginal, low-level stuff for obvious reasons.

Let's see:

Shugenja gets its elemental detection which is limited in range and based on class level

wu-jen gets its guardian spirit which is fairly nice.

druid gets its animal companion but that has most of the same issues as the familiar.

favored soul...

dread necro gets its charnel touch which, with tomb-tainted soul, can mean full HP at every encounter so that's pretty good.

beguiler gets a decent set of skills and trap-finding but points are gonna fall off -hard- once it theurges.

warmage gets his warmage edge.

spirit shaman gets... alertness.

healer gets healing hands.

shaman gets unarmed strike and a couple domains. Maybe turn undead if you stay in it long enough.

archivist gets dark knowledge.

mystic gets one domain.

and bard gets a couple uses of inspire courage and bardic knowledge or knack but isn't so good at casting.

Anything else is gonna be a -rough- ride for MT for its casting ability being too weak.

Disclaimer: I was in a hurry so the only one of those I looked up was spirit shaman because I honestly couldn't remember what it got in the early levels.

[Jay R]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to learn, which requires me to question things I don't understand.


The improved sigil (krau) trick works for both sides if you don't mind giving up your race choice. It's probably the easiest too. It really does just amount to be an illumian and take the feat.

Most of the early entry tricks will work equally well for either an arcane or divine caster but the krau trick is one feat and all upside unless you wanted to use a different race. That is, basically anything that lets a spell count as a higher level than it actually is without increasing the spell level; DMM heighten, earth spell, sanctum spell, etc. It's just a question of how many feats you're willing and able to dump for it.

Would most DMs accept these? I admit that if it were my call, I'd say, "Those are first level spells. They have extra power, but are still cast in a first level slot. There is a list of 2nd level spells, and until you can start casting from that list, in a 2nd level slot, you can't cast 2nd level spells."

But I'm relatively new to 3.5e, so it's a real question: would the average DM accept Heighten, krau, Earth, etc. for this?

I'm considering starting to design my next character as an unbalanced MT. He would have one level of Sorceror or Wizard with Precocious Apprentice, and then three levels of Cleric or Druid. [He can't reach MT before fourth level anyway, because he needs 6 ranks of two different skills. So this only delayed it one level.] He would only be down one level in divine power, so he'd be basically a cleric-with-benefits.

What are the risks and weaknesses I'm forgetting? And would it be better to make him an Arcane Hierophant?

[Khedrac]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to learn, which requires me to question things I don't understand.
Always wise.

Would most DMs accept these? I admit that if it were my call, I'd say, "Those are first level spells. They have extra power, but are still cast in a first level slot. There is a list of 2nd level spells, and until you can start casting from that list, in a 2nd level slot, you can't cast 2nd level spells."

But I'm relatively new to 3.5e, so it's a real question: would the average DM accept Heighten, krau, Earth, etc. for this?
In my experience, no, most DMs do not accept most early entry tricks.


I'm considering starting to design my next character as an unbalanced MT. He would have one level of Sorceror or Wizard with Precocious Apprentice, and then three levels of Cleric or Druid. [He can't reach MT before fourth level anyway, because he needs 6 ranks of two different skills. So this only delayed it one level.] He would only be down one level in divine power, so he'd be basically a cleric-with-benefits.

What are the risks and weaknesses I'm forgetting? And would it be better to make him an Arcane Hierophant?
If you want to go druid (and the druid list of spells is usually held to be weaker than the cleric list) then Arcane Heirophant is actually pretty powerful - consider what happens when you stack all the wizard buffs (like mage armor) on the animal companion...
For AH builds MT is usually used second - once the 10th level of AH has been taken.

I cannot advise from experience on low level play when aiming for AH (the one AH I played started at a high enough level to already be an AH), but at least having a druid animal companion will help with survivability while levelling. Also take druid 1 first for reasons of hit points, skills and the animal companion. I would think that the first arcane spell to take will be mage armor - generally the companion of a druid buffed by mage armor is more powerful that the companion of a druid a level higher not so buffed. Depending on the group it can also be a popular spell with the rest of your party.

Although it is less "optimal" I went sorceror for the arcane side - this was an attempt to get the repeat blasting capability of a spontaneous caster coupled with the versatility of a fixed-list caster; I think it worked, but the way I ended up selecting spells wizard might well have been better!

[bean illus]

Would most DMs accept these? I admit that if it were my call, I'd say, "Those are first level spells. They have extra power, but are still cast in a first level slot. There is a list of 2nd level spells, and until you can start casting from that list, in a 2nd level slot, you can't cast 2nd level spells."

But I'm relatively new to 3.5e, so it's a real question: would the average DM accept Heighten, krau, Earth, etc. for this?


It's a pretty decide question, and someone can dig it up, but yes; heighten spell qualifies for MT.

There are several early entry options for MT, and they all cost 2 feats (my favorite is versatile spellcaster + heighten spell).

But the illumian way only cost 1 feat, which being illumian gives you.



I'm considering starting to design my next character as an unbalanced MT. He would have one level of Sorceror or Wizard with Precocious Apprentice, and then three levels of Cleric or Druid. [He can't reach MT before fifth level anyway, because he needs 6 ranks of two different skills.] He would only be down one level in divine power, so he'd be basically a cleric-with-benefits.

It's quite feasible to enter MT at 4th.



What are the risks and weaknesses I'm forgetting? And would it be better to make him an Arcane Hierophant?

The risk is that everyone has bigger guns and has fun, while you support with utility.

Human - heighten spell, versatile caster
Cleric 2/ Sorcerer 1/ MT 10

[Elves]

Would most DMs accept these? [...] But I'm relatively new to 3.5e, so it's a real question: would the average DM accept Heighten, krau, Earth, etc. for this?
In the case of MT, 4th level entry isn't unreasonable. When used in the expected way -- wizard3/cleric3/MT10/wizard +4 -- it's not that good of a class. In Core I think people mostly use it to supplement arcane hierophant.


I admit that if it were my call, I'd say, "Those are first level spells. They have extra power, but are still cast in a first level slot. There is a list of 2nd level spells, and until you can start casting from that list, in a 2nd level slot, you can't cast 2nd level spells."
This part would be incorrect by the rules and would have ramifications beyond MT entry. In situations like this, it's usually better to simply ask that the player not use that build than to try changing the rules to prevent it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to learn, which requires me to question things I don't understand.

Nothing wrong with asking and, fwiw, this looks like a genuine question rather than a rhetorical one anyway.


Would most DMs accept these? I admit that if it were my call, I'd say, "Those are first level spells. They have extra power, but are still cast in a first level slot. There is a list of 2nd level spells, and until you can start casting from that list, in a 2nd level slot, you can't cast 2nd level spells."

If a GM says they're going to dissallow it on the basis of their sense of balance, I'd accept that. Not happily but I'd accept it. If they gave the reason you just did, I'd simply show them the how and where of the fact the rules don't agree with him.

Each of the options I listed makes the spell count as a higher level spell as per the heighten spell metamagic. Heighten spell explicitly makes the spell count as X levels higher in -all- regards. A first level spell heightened to second level either by actually placing it in a second level slot or by paying the metamagic cost in any of the other ways suggested -is- a second level spell.


But I'm relatively new to 3.5e, so it's a real question: would the average DM accept Heighten, krau, Earth, etc. for this?

As for the frequency with which they're accepted, I can't really say. I've spent the majority of my time with this system as the GM myself and both I and my current GM both accept it. The impression I get from forum browsing is that it -may- be a little uncommon but, IMO, the opportunity cost of pulling an early entry trick balances out the usually fairly minor power boost just fine. It's, at minimum, 1 feat in a build that's probably going to be feat starved in the first place and in the worst case it can take as many as 4 and a few odd build choices to actually get them. I might be a bit less accepting of it if I allowed flaws but I don't.


I'm considering starting to design my next character as an unbalanced MT. He would have one level of Sorceror or Wizard with Precocious Apprentice, and then three levels of Cleric or Druid. [He can't reach MT before fourth level anyway, because he needs 6 ranks of two different skills. So this only delayed it one level.] He would only be down one level in divine power, so he'd be basically a cleric-with-benefits.

Technically, you'd be down one extra arcane level, not that it matters much. Keeps your race options free and gets you in early for a single feat that's all up-side. Sanctum spell could get you in a level sooner but that's basically setting a feat on fire as a sacrifice. Ever cast a level -1 spell? I have. :smallbiggrin: Setup the BBEG to fight the party in his sanctum so he had prepared -all- his spells as sanctum spells. One forced teleport (which I should've seen coming :smallsigh:) and pitched battle later, he's running on fumes and reduced to firing off cantrips that he prepared as sanctum spells outside of his sanctum. Yeah, I could've fudged it but I'm a gamist, first and foremost, so I don't do that.


What are the risks and weaknesses I'm forgetting? And would it be better to make him an Arcane Hierophant?

You're probably not forgetting anything but definitely go with arcane hierophant if you go with druid. Yeah, it's one level later but it gets actual class features.

Just for completeness' sake; generally low HP, probably relatively low AC, very minor features outside of your spellcasting. You've mitigated the spell progression loss to a footnote with the early entry.

Basically, you're a cleric or a druid that plays more like a sorcerer or wizard but with a crapton more spell slots. I reiterate, if you do go druid, just take the first level of MT then go straight down AH to its conclusion before flipping back to MT. You'll end on dru 19/ sorc 17 which is 9th and 8th level spells, respectively; very solid.

[Ramza00]

Don't forget if you go illumian you get to pick two sigils not just the krau sigil which you need for early entry.

Naen + Krau means you can leave 1 or 2 slots unfilled to give +1 DC for for the spell level of both sides of your mystic theurge.
Naen also gives +2 to all Int checks and Int Skill Checks

Uur + krau mean you can use Dex for Bonus Spells instead of your Ability modifier.
Uur also gives +2 to all Dex checks and Dex Skill Checks. Initiative is a Dex check so you get half an improved initiative.
Furthermore many Arcane sides give you a familiar and you can choose to pick a familiar that gives you a bonus to initiative. Hell you can also choose the divine side for the Time domain to get Improved Initiative as a Feat, or swap out Scribe Scroll on the Wizard side (if you pick Wizard as your Arcane) and go Martial Wizard and get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll (this route loses nothing if the other side is an Archivist.)

And the other options are also good but not as good as the two I listed above, but yeah bonuses to Charisma Face Skills and Saves, or you can be a Strength Mage, or just skills bonuses to help your various perception related skill checks whether you are doing 3.5 or Pathfinder.

[RSGA]

So, this is probably going to be the most involved question for no real change in opinion, but what changes value wise for a Mystic Theurge if you go and do a rebuild quest? Preferably after entering normally (or if you do go for early entry wait for CL 6). Take a little trip to the Gates of Dawn or a similar location. Finish the quest and change out two levels for more Mystic Theurge.

For The Gates of Dawn, it may be more appropriate to trade out the arcane levels, but which seems better? An even split of Arcane and Divine levels so that you have 5/5 casting, taking two out of Divine so that you are 6/4 Arcane/Divine, or two from the Arcane so that you do 4/6? That leaves you a spell level behind no matter how you slice it, but any of those are still pretty ahead of the 4/4 casting that you 'should' have. This still doesn't seem to change anything long term, but in immediate terms?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, this is probably going to be the most involved question for no real change in opinion, but what changes value wise for a Mystic Theurge if you go and do a rebuild quest? Preferably after entering normally (or if you do go for early entry wait for CL 6). Take a little trip to the Gates of Dawn or a similar location. Finish the quest and change out two levels for more Mystic Theurge.

For The Gates of Dawn, it may be more appropriate to trade out the arcane levels, but which seems better? An even split of Arcane and Divine levels so that you have 5/5 casting, taking two out of Divine so that you are 6/4 Arcane/Divine, or two from the Arcane so that you do 4/6? That leaves you a spell level behind no matter how you slice it, but any of those are still pretty ahead of the 4/4 casting that you 'should' have. This still doesn't seem to change anything long term, but in immediate terms?

Honestly, it kinda feels like putting the ikea coffee table back together after you came home thrashed and flopped onto it because you thought it was a bed and broke it. If you'd put it together right in the first place, you wouldn't have to be doing it later with a hangover from the bad decisions you made.

The only way I could see myself doing it is if I decided to do a MT after the GM says no early entry and then he changes his mind. I'd shuffle some feats around to get the early entry requirements and then do the rebuild to switch the class levels. Frankly, that's pretty unlikely since I'd be pretty unlikely to go with MT without early entry. I'd be much more likely to go with cerebremancer or ultimate magus.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Of course, the real challenge is to make the class work with one side being a half caster, like a sorcadin or a... rangard? :smallbiggrin:

[ranagrande]

Mystic Theurge is alright unless you go past ten levels. Epic Mystic Theurge really is worthless.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of course, the real challenge is to make the class work with one side being a half caster, like a sorcadin or a... rangard? :smallbiggrin:

I'mma be the best gish ever! Illumian Ranger 4/ Duskblade 1/ MT 10/ X5

...

Oh.... I made myself sad. :smallfrown:

[Darg]

Even if I presume that you do have a 6 man party and your casters are gishy, you still have HPs to burn through. 20+ encounters are going to demand you fight -very- conservatively and with serious coordination on that ground alone. AoE attacks can still mess you up even then. I could also presume that everyone is passably stealthy and that you typically catch enemies by surprise rather than the other way around but even then 20+ encounters, presumablly with multiple foes, wherein you're rarely spotted is a stretch too.

I've got no problem with the meat-grinder approach. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, just that it's well out of the ordinary and the system's fairly explicit expectation of 4 encounters a day with a 4 man party typically lasting about 5 rounds.

It's not really a meat grinder approach, it's just easy enough to set ambushes and traps. Not all encounters have to be all out brawls. Not every encounter has to be winnable either. My groups are generally amenable to tactical retreats.


I'm also familiar with the expression that "quantity has a quality of its own," and don't disagree but you're talking about enough encounters that you're typically not casting more than one spell in each one and often not even that unless you are a dual casting theurge of some kind. I pretty much have to presume you're getting a -lot- of mileage out of reserve feats.

Not really. We make judicious use of potions and magic items though




Armor proficiencies are worthless unless your arcane side can cast in armor and even then it'll only be light unless you're willing to take the chance that your spells might just fizzle at a crucial moment. You can get around it with specialized gear but that ain't cheap.

Heavy armor can be equipped and unequipped. Planning for encounters is important, and having a scout is really nice in conjunction with that.



You didn't mention them this time around but familiars are kinda iffy if you're not prioritizing them. I don't know about you but I'm not super thrilled with the idea of a fragile little 200xp per level time-bomb running around a battlefield. Yeah, I can buff it but that's spell slots I don't have for other things. Not much point in getting that extra quantity if I'm just gonna have to spend a big chunk of it on using it effectively.

Well, generally you won't have a familiar on the front lines in the first place, but it does allow a touch spell when you can't move from your position. And they are fairly hard to hit except by trained archers who would rather try and kill actual threats most of the time

[Lans]

Might I suggest Eldritch knight 5?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's not really a meat grinder approach, it's just easy enough to set ambushes and traps. Not all encounters have to be all out brawls. Not every encounter has to be winnable either. My groups are generally amenable to tactical retreats.

Perhaps I've misunderstood but you presented 20+ in a way that suggests that's typical.

It's easy enough to set ambushes and bait small numbers of classed humanoids but it's not so easy that you can expect to do it for most encounters and it's -much- more difficult with a whole host of less exotic creatures. Even if you do have someone running scout position, that's still a spot check for each and every enemy that might see him and if he's caught then either there's no ambush and the fight goes full tilt or, if your luck breaks, the scout dies and the rest of you don't even know until he doesn't come back for too long.

Discretion can be the better part of valor sometimes too, true. That makes it a chase encounter which can be fun. I suppose I can presume that you're all either lightly armored or had your speed boosted. Or TP out.

In any case, taking out enemies quickly enough to avoid being damaged for the most part, even in an ambush, is no simple feat in this system.


Not really. We make judicious use of potions and magic items though

Obviously. I'm guessing wands of CLW figure quite prominently in that.

Even using wands and staves and the odd pot though, 20+ encounters is a -massive- number for one day. Any normal caster is going to struggle mightily to not run dry well before the end of that.


Heavy armor can be equipped and unequipped. Planning for encounters is important, and having a scout is really nice in conjunction with that.


Planning for encounters is something you can't count on. Not unless your GM is softballing. A scout helps but he can miss enemies as easily as they can miss him. I get that you're playing very tactiaclly, and kudos for it, but if the enemy does too then you're gonna be caught in straght fights fairly often and even the odd ambush. So either you're caught with your pants (read: ac) down or you're walking around unable to use arcane magic effectively except just before a fight. I think I'll stick to getting my AC without the heavy armor, thanks.



Well, generally you won't have a familiar on the front lines in the first place, but it does allow a touch spell when you can't move from your position. And they are fairly hard to hit except by trained archers who would rather try and kill actual threats most of the time

They're not that hard to hit unless you're still fairly low level and they're typically tiny so they have to provoke an attack of opportunity to touch an enemy at all. Even delivering a spell to an ally will typically put them in threatened areas unless that ally either steps back from the fray for a moment or you catch him between foes.

[Ashiel]

I feel like the Mystic Theruge prestige class is a worthless prestige class. Just tell me one good thing about that prestige class? :sigh:
It loses nothing that cannot be regained when needed with some cheap magic items, and it gains a remarkable amount of versatility and allows you to perform certain combos without having to rely on other players to play the opposing caster type. In core they make some of the best necromancers around because you can double dip caster levels and caster level bonuses to get rather extreme amounts of undead control hit dice, along with both arcane and divine routes.

You don't go into mystic theurge to be a cleric or wizard, you go into it to be a mystic theurge. Put another way, your intention is to leverage the perks you get rather than trying to compete where you are giving up. You will generally be 0-2 spell levels behind your peers and that's okay, because you will make up with it both in quantity and in flexibility.

Generally speaking you will want to pick a side to be your primary side, so you will hit 7 / 3 / 10 in class levels by 20th, which nets you 9th level spells on one side and 7th level spells on the other. Which route you go is primarily personal preference, but I recommend rushing 5th in whichever side will be your main side so that you get the coveted 3rd level spells for your primary side first. Most of the good spells start showing up around 3rd level (stinking cloud, haste, dispel magic, animate dead, summon monster III, etc) and will certainly be able to carry you while you build up your other side and start taking Theurge levels.

Example
If you start as a cleric, go Cleric 5 so you can quickly grab animate dead, magic circle, and summon monster III, along with any utility spells from 1st-3rd which you now have access to as well. Then you can start picking up wizard levels. Since you went cleric prime you can contribute to your party's success by doing things like casting death knell + desecrate + animate dead during your downtime and primarily casting summon monster III and problem solving spells for your party while you are building your wizard side.

As you're leveling wizard you can focus on spells that don't require particularly high caster levels to be useful (such as enlarge person, grease, and invisibility) which can supplement your party's options further. Keep in mind that you have access to magic items for both types of magic, and can further supplement your options with scrolls, pearls of power, and similar items, more or less all that you can craft yourself.

Once you hit 3rd level in your alternate class, you're ready to start going the theurge route and more or less continue what you're doing. Generic caster level boosts apply to all your caster levels so casting things like death knell, using the +1 caster level ioun stone, or a prayer bead of karma can net you caster level increases on an as-needed basis, which is great for downtime casting or if you need to cast a scroll that is normally beyond your level (6th CL cleric casting can pop a death knell and cast a CL 7th scroll with no worries).

If both of your classes are prepared casters (such as cleric/wizard) then pearls of power are a great option for you as well since you can recover whichever spells you need on an as-needed basis and turns you into a pseudo-spontaneous caster on both sides (since you can diversify which spells you prepare knowing you can cast them extra times that day if needed). If you can spontaneously cast spells such as cure or inflict spells, it adds to your versatility.

Theurge is not bad, it is different. You prioritize things differently and you play them differently. Even if you're bad at playing them, you're probably still better off than 90% of the other classes. Either way you will have in-house access to things like simulacrum and planar ally. If your only criteria for being worth playing is 9th level spells as fast as possible, well, there's only a few classes in the game that will meet your definition of "not worthless".

[Khedrac]

...snip...

I just want to applaud Ashiel's post - it is a lovely summary of why a Mystic Theurge is a decent class and worthy to be played for what it is.

[Ashiel]

I just want to applaud Ashiel's post - it is a lovely summary of why a Mystic Theurge is a decent class and worthy to be played for what it is.
Thank you, I appreciate the sentiment.

My theory is that if you want to play a Cleric or Wizard, play one. Mystic Theurge (and quite a few other classes) are kind of their own bag of tricks. It can be very nice having a great spell for almost any occasion, and the dual spell lists can allow for some rather nice combinations of spells. Some really simple examples would be animate dead with the trimmings (death knell + desecrate) mixed with haste and stinking cloud, or you can play a hard utility caster that by your lonesome can cast all the anti-bad spells (remove paralysis, remove fear, restoration line, death ward, freedom of movement, spell immunity, while also providing the powerful arcane buffs like haste, enlarge person, polymorph, etc.), and then you throw in the mixtures of utility and crowd controls (most of which don't care much if at all about things like your caster level or even save DCs, some examples being things like sleet storm, wind wall, see invisibility plus invisibility purge to allow you to spot invisible creatures and then purge their invisibility so your party can too), and you can do some funny things with glyph of warding spells since they don't specify that you have to put divine spells into them.

Edit: Incidentally, since you probably have a familiar, their deliver touch spells feature is likewise not limited to wizard spells, so using your familiar to deliver cleric heals or buffs to your party can be quite handy. Or if you're really cheeky, let them deliver those aforementioned glyphs of warding. Familiars tend to be tiny and stealthy, exceedingly so when supported with magic like invisibility, so having your familiar scout out an environment and strategically place glyphs of warding or greater glyphs of warding around a dungeon can be hilarious good fun.

[Darg]

Taking Practiced Spellcaster will give you up to +4 CL for each class you take it for.

[Aotrs Commander]

Mystic Theurge is alright unless you go past ten levels. Epic Mystic Theurge really is worthless.

That is the worst class design of any stripe I've ever seen and I have NEVER been able to understand how an actual person smart enough to be able to read and write words and comprehend the concept of an RPG could look at that and not go "that's the most stupid thing I've seen in my life/unlife."

It's LITERALLY WORSE than taking additional levels of the base class. Mystic Theurge has ONE JOB and the Epic Theurge doesn't even do THAT.

A class which is quite literally completely self-defeating.

[elonin]

Make your divine side self buffs or ally buffs that last 10 mins per level, or 1 hour per level. Especially with rods of extend lesser.

For example Conviction is 10 min per level as a 1st level spell or a 3rd level spell as a mass version.

It gives +2 to saves as a moral bonus at level 1, +3 at cl 6, +4 at cl 12, and +5 at cl 18.

Thus at caster level 9 your duration is 90 mins per level, with a rod of extend this is 3 hours per level. Cast this 3 times a day with a rod of extend lesser and you have 9 hours of buffs.

Same idea with other spells that are 10 mins per level, 1 hour per level, 24 hours and so on.

-----

Yes it is more book keeping and set up prior to actually playing with your friends, but the amount of work you do while playing with your friends is not much harder.


In fact this is kind of a benefit of Mystic Theurge ending at level 10 and thus Caster Level 11 (early entry) or 13 without using a second prestige class. There is a limit on the amount of spells and buffs to track.
Level 7 to 9 spells are either all day buffs or used to kill things, and you only have some actions in combat to kill things so the benefits of having a second level 7 to 9 spell casting class actually is not that helpful.

Is the mystic theurge strictly the same power wise as a ultimate magus?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is the mystic theurge strictly the same power wise as a ultimate magus?

Gods no. UM has actual class features, good ones at that. It's not even really in the same ballpark with the UM's metamagic mitigation. The only trick with UM is that if you want to have the spontaneous side as your primary, you've got to jump through some hoops but that's fairly minor.

[Darg]

Epic Theurge doesn't even do THAT.

How is that? You get double the number of total spells per day and double the number of epic spells per day. A 1 level dip could net you triple the amount of epic spells. Once you hit level 25, (27 if you went 17/13) your normal spellcasting tops out regardless. With a couple feats you could be only -1/-1 CL.

If that isn't powerful, I don't know what is for epic level characters.

[bean illus]

How is that? You get double the number of total spells per day and double the number of epic spells per day. A 1 level dip could net you triple the amount of epic spells. Once you hit level 25, (27 if you went 17/13) your normal spellcasting tops out regardless. With a couple feats you could be only -1/-1 CL.

If that isn't powerful, I don't know what is for epic level characters.

Well when you say it like that, a favored soul/ sorcerer/ theurge/ arcane hierophant with versatile caster, practiced spellcaster and arcane fusion sounds like a Tommy gun.

[Ravens_cry]

It lets you play the concept at all. Is it as powerful or more powerful than a wizard or cleric alone, barring stinky Stilton level cheesehood? No. But those are top tier classes, the most mostest. Not being most mestest doesn't mean not playable.
It is more playable than alternating Wizard, Cleric, Wizard, Cleric. Like Arcane Trickster, it's a synergy class.

[Aotrs Commander]

How is that? You get double the number of total spells per day and double the number of epic spells per day. A 1 level dip could net you triple the amount of epic spells. Once you hit level 25, (27 if you went 17/13) your normal spellcasting tops out regardless. With a couple feats you could be only -1/-1 CL.

If that isn't powerful, I don't know what is for epic level characters.

I think you're missing my point - EMT's failure is that the Epic Prestidge Class doesn't give you anything that you can't, at that point, already get by advancing your base classes instead (like you will have been doing for the past five levels.)

The Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't give you dual casting progression. Each level, you only progress either arcane (odd levels) or divine spellcaster class level (even levels), not both. So what's the gain over taking a level of wizard or cleric, say?

Epic Casting Casting means you have to meet the prerequistes to access that spell slot (technically, I suppose by their wording, you could meet both the nature and religion pre-reqs at once and get twice as many divine spells; (though you might have to have knowledge domain to do so) - sure, you could meet 9/9 casting at level 24 - if you DON'T take Epic Mystic Theurge, which FORCES you to take arcane at every odd level and divine at every even. So if you were 17 cleric/13 wizard, hard lines, you have to increase wizard first. So you will qualify for epic spells (for what dubious value as they are, considering) for both classes only at level 28 if you went 17/13... Four levels later than if you just took four levels in whichever class was behind - and you dont get any gain from it!

Literally the ONLY thing EMT gives you is that you can get a bonus Epic Feat at level 26 by adding +3/+3 to your caster classes (so 20/18).

As opposed to taking six levels of your regular class (say 23/13), which you would have to put all into one class to give you a bonus feat. Plus, if, say, one class was Wizard, you could get a bonus feat for your regular wizard class levels that you could turn into an epic feat by adding either adding 3 or 2 levels (on 17/13) or five levels (if 15/15)...!



Like I said, it's basically unilaterally worse in virtually every instance than just taking more levels of your base classes! (I mean, they might progress your actual class features, or give you a better HD, even!)

[ranagrande]

I think you're missing my point - EMT's failure is that the Epic Prestidge Class doesn't give you anything that you can't, at that point, already get by advancing your base classes instead (like you will have been doing for the past five levels.)

The Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't give you dual casting progression. Each level, you only progress either arcane (odd levels) or divine spellcaster class level (even levels), not both. So what's the gain over taking a level of wizard or cleric, say?

Epic Casting Casting means you have to meet the prerequistes to access that spell slot (technically, I suppose by their wording, you could meet both the nature and religion pre-reqs at once and get twice as many divine spells; (though you might have to have knowledge domain to do so) - sure, you could meet 9/9 casting at level 24 - if you DON'T take Epic Mystic Theurge, which FORCES you to take arcane at every odd level and divine at every even. So if you were 17 cleric/13 wizard, hard lines, you have to increase wizard first. So you will qualify for epic spells (for what dubious value as they are, considering) for both classes only at level 28 if you went 17/13... Four levels later than if you just took four levels in whichever class was behind - and you dont get any gain from it!

Literally the ONLY thing EMT gives you is that you can get a bonus Epic Feat at level 26 by adding +3/+3 to your caster classes (so 20/18).

As opposed to taking six levels of your regular class (say 23/13), which you would have to put all into one class to give you a bonus feat. Plus, if, say, one class was Wizard, you could get a bonus feat for your regular wizard class levels that you could turn into an epic feat by adding either adding 3 or 2 levels (on 17/13) or five levels (if 15/15)...!



Like I said, it's basically unilaterally worse in virtually every instance than just taking more levels of your base classes! (I mean, they might progress your actual class features, or give you a better HD, even!)

It's also worse than switching to any other prestige class. Even in a core-only game, a Mystic Theurge can qualify easily enough to be a Loremaster and get 10 levels with class features, one of which could be the epic feat that MT gets. Continuing after, the Epic Loremaster is identical to the Epic Mystic Theurge except that it gets more class skills, more skill points, and three times as many bonus feats.

[Darg]

The Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't give you dual casting progression. Each level, you only progress either arcane (odd levels) or divine spellcaster class level (even levels), not both. So what's the gain over taking a level of wizard or cleric, say?

I'm not a fan of the Accessory Update Booklet and take it with a good helping of salt as it conflicts with other books' guides for progressing epic level prestige classes such as the CA and CD.

If you wish to follow that example, any dual progression PrC is worthless beyond it's 10th level as it would have to have split progression instead.

Epic Spellcasting slots are cumulative for every prerequisite acquired. Meaning 9th level arcane, 9th level divine, and all 3 knowledge skills mean 3 knowledges worth of epic spell slots.


It's also worse than switching to any other prestige class. Even in a core-only game, a Mystic Theurge can qualify easily enough to be a Loremaster and get 10 levels with class features, one of which could be the epic feat that MT gets. Continuing after, the Epic Loremaster is identical to the Epic Mystic Theurge except that it gets more class skills, more skill points, and three times as many bonus feats.

If you want to follow the version on the SRD website, then yes. However if you do, you'll have to follow that example for all dual progression classes, which makes all of them worthless to make Epic as the base classes are generally better for alternating progressions regardless.

[ranagrande]

If you want to follow the version on the SRD website, then yes. However if you do, you'll have to follow that example for all dual progression classes, which makes all of them worthless to make Epic as the base classes are generally better for alternating progressions regardless.
That is correct, but even then Epic Mystic Theurge is still more useless than all the others: True Necromancer advances Rebuke Undead. Arcane Hierophant advances Animal Companions, Familiars, and Wildshape, and gets more skill points. Fochlucan Lyrist advances Bardic Knowledge and gets more skill points. All three of them have a d6 HD to the Mystic Theurge's d4.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm not a fan of the Accessory Update Booklet

Nor am I, nor of the couple of paragraphs or half-arsing it they put in the aforementioned that were so brief and ephermeral, I had forgotten they existed until you mentioned it and I went to look. (And even then, there's some arguement

3.5's epic rules were terrible and poorly considered add-ons, in reality; the fact that they actually released the rules for EMT in that state at all is basically the paragon demonstration of that; it shows every sign of being knocked out for the booklet in a rush at the last minute without being considered (and DEFINATELY not playtested).



I mean, if the MT I have in my group reaches Epic (wrong party for that, though) I would just flat give hiim the dual-progression it should have had.




Epic Spellcasting slots are cumulative for every prerequisite acquired. Meaning 9th level arcane, 9th level divine, and all 3 knowledge skills mean 3 knowledges worth of epic spell slots.

Yes, but with the EMT-as-written doesn't get yolu there faster than single class prgression (regular MT puts you in position to do so, and argueably True Necromancer does even better.)

...

I have never quite understood why True Necromancer seems to get more flack. Aside from the more niche enter requirements (and the problem it does that it takes a bit longer to get off to a start, which is a fair problem), but it gives you a better end result (for keeping the class even, though not for getting 9ths), it is HAS some class features, even if they're throw away; but surely most of the early entry tricks on MT would do you better on TN, if you wanted that particular paradigm...?

[Darg]

That is correct, but even then Epic Mystic Theurge is still more useless than all the others: True Necromancer advances Rebuke Undead. Arcane Hierophant advances Animal Companions, Familiars, and Wildshape, and gets more skill points. Fochlucan Lyrist advances Bardic Knowledge and gets more skill points. All three of them have a d6 HD to the Mystic Theurge's d4.

Then what are you roleplaying as? AH explicitly states Trackless Step as a class feature. I'm pretty sure the work arounds mostly apply to racial features. Also, AH makes your companion into a familiar; you don't get both. So unless you fudge your way in, you are stuck being specifically druid for 3 levels minimum. True Necromancer requires you playing as a necromancer, giving up a further 2 levels of progression for each of your classes, and to play as a non-good character.


Nor am I, nor of the couple of paragraphs or half-arsing it they put in the aforementioned that were so brief and ephermeral, I had forgotten they existed until you mentioned it and I went to look. (And even then, there's some arguement

3.5's epic rules were terrible and poorly considered add-ons, in reality; the fact that they actually released the rules for EMT in that state at all is basically the paragon demonstration of that; it shows every sign of being knocked out for the booklet in a rush at the last minute without being considered (and DEFINATELY not playtested).



I mean, if the MT I have in my group reaches Epic (wrong party for that, though) I would just flat give hiim the dual-progression it should have had.





Yes, but with the EMT-as-written doesn't get yolu there faster than single class prgression (regular MT puts you in position to do so, and argueably True Necromancer does even better.)

...

I have never quite understood why True Necromancer seems to get more flack. Aside from the more niche enter requirements (and the problem it does that it takes a bit longer to get off to a start, which is a fair problem), but it gives you a better end result (for keeping the class even, though not for getting 9ths), it is HAS some class features, even if they're throw away; but surely most of the early entry tricks on MT would do you better on TN, if you wanted that particular paradigm...?

As you said, TN basically slows down your progression by 1 spell level until 20 where it catches up to MT and doesn't have to option of getting 9th level spells. I personally think that spell levels, while powerful, don't make you that much less effective if you don't have access to them. You are still able to make up some by using items and crafting.

That said, taking something as written (looking at you versatile spellcaster and heighten spell) isn't always the best rule. Especially when looking at the poorly exampled dual progression classes in epic levels. I mean, would you take dual progression into epic levels if all dual epic progressions were alternating instead of parallel?

[bean illus]

Then what are you roleplaying as? AH explicitly states Trackless Step as a class feature. I'm pretty sure the work arounds mostly apply to racial features.

Wildrunner - RotW, half elf, any good or chaotic, E6



I mean, would you take dual progression into epic levels if all dual epic progressions were alternating instead of parallel?

No, I wouldn't.

[Darg]

Wildrunner - RotW, half elf, any good or chaotic, E6

Nice, too bad you are forced to be elf or half-elf. Would also delay progression access by 1 level.


No, I wouldn't.


Which is why discretion is necessary for sure. Full dual progression for every one.

[ranagrande]

Then what are you roleplaying as? AH explicitly states Trackless Step as a class feature. I'm pretty sure the work arounds mostly apply to racial features. Also, AH makes your companion into a familiar; you don't get both. So unless you fudge your way in, you are stuck being specifically druid for 3 levels minimum. True Necromancer requires you playing as a necromancer, giving up a further 2 levels of progression for each of your classes, and to play as a non-good character.
There are a few ways to get Trackless Step. Wildrunner, as bean illus pointed out, Scout 3 if you wanted to delay casting progression even further, Holt Warden 3 if you wanted an early imbalance in favor of Divine casting, or just plain old Druid 3. Druids still make great theurges.

As you say, AH does not get both a companion and a familiar, but they keep their companion and give it all the bonuses their familiar would have had. And AH levels stack for both companion and familiar bonuses.



That said, taking something as written (looking at you versatile spellcaster and heighten spell) isn't always the best rule. Especially when looking at the poorly exampled dual progression classes in epic levels. I mean, would you take dual progression into epic levels if all dual epic progressions were alternating instead of parallel?
No, no I would not. I'd just take a bunch of other casting prestige classes instead and get more class features instead.

[bean illus]

Druid 5/ wizard 1/ mt 4/ arcane hierophant 10?

15th level wildshape
15th level companion familiar
8th level wizard spells, CL 15
9th level druid spells, CL 19