Dominate Person - Targets Knowledge?

[kalos72]

My group was talking about Dominate Person today....

Would the person being dominated necessarily KNOW he was being dominated? I mean if the caster only monitors and follows the target and doesnt force the save for going against the targets interest, COULD you keep it secret?

Any other spell we could use to monitor and nudge but not necessarily let the target know?

[Malroth]

While you could probably keep it from the person themselves due to their diminished mental capacity, The tendency for dominated individuals to stand around waiting for orders or to follow an existing order to a degree that surpasses insanity would make it very easy for others to spot.

[kalos72]

Sure, if you tell him to stand on his head in the Market, others will notice. But if you dominate him and tell him to walk slowly and smile, other wouldn't notice most times.

Question is, can the target never know he was dominated? Or even, WHO dominated him from the crowd?

I am looking for ways to gain information from certain peoples... :)

[LameGothMom]

It does require a wisdom saving throw and is considered beguiling, much to my surprise. I was sort of surprised by the mental implications of this one.

[kalos72]

It does require a wisdom saving throw and is considered beguiling, much to my surprise. I was sort of surprised by the mental implications of this one.

Meaning? :)

[Jack_Simth]

I'd be inclined to give them a Sense Motive roll on themselves, with a circumstance bonus based on how many orders you give. Which means the DC starts at 15 and goes down as you press.

[Psyren]

Sure, if you tell him to stand on his head in the Market, others will notice. But if you dominate him and tell him to walk slowly and smile, other wouldn't notice most times.

Not true - it's a DC 15 Sense Motive check no matter what you ask them to do (or not do). So there is something odd about their behavior even if you command them to act naturally, that others can pick up on.



Question is, can the target never know he was dominated? Or even, WHO dominated him from the crowd?

The target likely knows they are dominated. After all, they are constantly resisting acts against their nature, trying to throw the effect off each day, and of course flat out stopping themselves from self-destructive commands. None of that would be possible if they didn't think something was happening.

Knowing who did it is trickier - without Spellcraft I would say they have no way of telling. Even with Spellcraft they would have to perceive the spell as it's cast.

[Ashtagon]

Sure, if you tell him to stand on his head in the Market, others will notice. But if you dominate him and tell him to walk slowly and smile, other wouldn't notice most times.

Question is, can the target never know he was dominated? Or even, WHO dominated him from the crowd?

I am looking for ways to gain information from certain peoples... :)

Considering that they can't even scratch an itch without being told to, I'd say no. They might not know who or what was limiting their actions, but they'd know something was up.

[noob]

Sure, if you tell him to stand on his head in the Market, others will notice. But if you dominate him and tell him to walk slowly and smile, other would alway notice.

I mean who walks slowly and smile without being spotted instantly by everyone around?
If it was "frown and walk fast" maybe people would not notice.


Considering that they can't even scratch an itch without being told to, I'd say no. They might not know who or what was limiting their actions, but they'd know something was up.

can you tell them "forget you are mind controlled"?

[Silva Stormrage]

I mean who walks slowly and smile without being spotted instantly by everyone around?
If it was "frown and walk fast" maybe people would not notice.



can you tell them "forget you are mind controlled"?

I mean can you physically make yourself forget something? The dominate person spell doesn't allow the target to do anything they can't personally do. I would almost certainly not allow the caster to order his minion to forget anything without casting other spells like modify memory.

[noob]

I mean can you physically make yourself forget something? The dominate person spell doesn't allow the target to do anything they can't personally do. I would almost certainly not allow the caster to order his minion to forget anything without casting other spells like modify memory.

I guess that as usual the solution is then programmed amnesia and mindrape.

[Jack_Simth]

I guess that as usual the solution is then programmed amnesia and mindrape.
If you're using Mindrape (9th), why are you bothering with Dominate Person (4th)?

[noob]

If you're using Mindrape (9th), why are you bothering with Dominate Person (4th)?

Step 1: cast dominate person onto an important person
Step 2: use their help to level up faster and have them hide the fact they are mind controlled
Step 3: now that you can cast mind rape you can finally make them forget being mind controlled to hide the trail you left behind then afterwards if you can then become vecna blooded.

[Duke of Urrel]

My group was talking about Dominate Person today....

Would the person being dominated necessarily KNOW he was being dominated? I mean if the caster only monitors and follows the target and doesnt force the save for going against the targets interest, COULD you keep it secret?

Any other spell we could use to monitor and nudge but not necessarily let the target know?

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Spellcraft skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm). After you roll a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, you make a Spellcraft check as a reaction (no action required). If you make this check at DC 25 plus the spell's spell level, you know what the spell was. It makes no difference whether your saving throw against the spell succeeded or not.

There is also the following general rule about saving throws.


A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

This still leaves open the question whether the target of a spell necessarily notices the spell after making a failed saving throw against it and then making a failed Spellcraft check (or, lacking this skill, failing to make any Spellcraft check at all) to identify the spell.

My house rule is that spells of the Enchantment school are subtle. When a spell belongs to the Enchantment school, I believe it produces no observable effect for any creature except for the spellcaster, unless (1) the spell’s own description states otherwise (as the description of the Mind Fog spell does) or (2) an enchanted creature that you observe while it is being enchanted changes its behavior suspiciously. Sense Motive skill is also handy, as others have pointed out, but when I'm the dungeon master, it is handy only for creatures who are not enchanted themselves, not for enchantees.

But do you yourself notice that you have been affected by an Enchantment spell? Here, I make a distinction, again as a house rule, between Charm spells and Compulsion spells.

As a house rule, I consider Charm spells to be so subtle and so pleasant that if you fail your saving throw against a Charm spell, you generally fail to notice that you have been charmed at all. If you have Spellcraft skill and you identify a Charm spell that you have failed to resist, I let you become aware that you have been charmed. In this case, I let you make an opposed Charisma check against the enchanter, and if you win, you break the charm. If you lose, you trust the enchanter so much that you assume they must have had a good and perfectly harmless reason to charm you.

Compulsion spells, on the other hand, are unpleasant. Whether your saving throw against a Compulsion spell succeeds or fails, you know that it is a hostile thing. Therefore, my house rule is that you usually cannot be magically compelled without knowing that something is not normal and very wrong. However, as a house rule, I never allow you to do anything against being magically compelled, because a magical Mind-Affecting compulsion always entails forcing your mind to submit to being compelled. This means that even if you use Spellcraft successfully to identify a Compulsion spell that you are subject to, you can't do anything about it (except of course as the description of the Compulsion spell allows). For example, you can't just cast the Dispel Magic spell to get rid of it. The Compulsion spell just doesn't allow you to do that.

[Jack_Simth]

Duke of Urrel: Isn't Suggestion a compulsion too?

[Duke of Urrel]

Duke of Urrel: Isn't Suggestion a compulsion too?

Sure, it is. I'm not going to push my general rule that Compulsions are "unpleasant" onto the Suggestion spell. I'm also not going to push it onto the Hypnotism spell, which is also a Compulsion, but one whose description states explicitly that a "creature that fails its saving throw does not remember that you enspelled it." Then there are Compulsions like Bless, Good Hope, and even Sympathy, which probably feel pretty good.

I only mean to say that this is true for most Compulsions, including the Dominate spells, the Command spells, the Geas/Quest spells, the Zone of Truth spell, the Binding spell, the Irresistible Dance spell, &c.

I do want to push my point that you should not be able to cast the Dispel Magic spell to get rid of a Compulsion merely because you're aware of it. I feel strongly that part of the effect of a Compulsion is to make the subject unable to act directly against it, because the subject's mind is simply not free to do so. It makes no difference whether the subject is aware of the spell or not.

In the case of the Suggestion spell, I think it's realistic to assume that after doing something compulsively for a few minutes, you do become aware of it. You might ask yourself, at least in your mind: "What in the Nine Hells am I doing this for?" But the question is useless, because after you fail to make a Will save against the Suggestion spell, you have to keep on repeating the same compulsive action until the spell expires or somebody else dispels it. You don't have any other choice.

[Segev]

If I'm interpreting the OP correctly, then I don't think his real question has been addressed. He's asking, I think, about a niche use of the spell.

If I'm wrong, I'm still curious about this circumstance, so please consider the question asked anyway!

This is the scenario:

Evelyn the Evil Sorceress has cast dominate person on Bob the Fighter, but has not given him any commands. Evelyn has informed him it was a telepathy spell. She is careful never to give Bob any commands, phrasing things as questions and the like, so he never once feels a compulsion, even inadvertently.

Does Bob have the freedom to act normally, since Evelyn hasn't given him any commands whatsoever? Or is he locked down as a statue until she starts ordering him to do things? If the former, does Bob know he's dominated, or can he believe (without further magics) that he's free to act however he likes, not realizing that Evelyn could take control at any moment she deigned to give him an order?

[Ashtagon]

If I'm interpreting the OP correctly, then I don't think his real question has been addressed. He's asking, I think, about a niche use of the spell.

If I'm wrong, I'm still curious about this circumstance, so please consider the question asked anyway!

This is the scenario:

Evelyn the Evil Sorceress has cast dominate person on Bob the Fighter, but has not given him any commands. Evelyn has informed him it was a telepathy spell. She is careful never to give Bob any commands, phrasing things as questions and the like, so he never once feels a compulsion, even inadvertently.

Does Bob have the freedom to act normally, since Evelyn hasn't given him any commands whatsoever? Or is he locked down as a statue until she starts ordering him to do things? If the former, does Bob know he's dominated, or can he believe (without further magics) that he's free to act however he likes, not realizing that Evelyn could take control at any moment she deigned to give him an order?

Interesting. Reading through the SRD and PRD text, both cases would appear to allow this. Without a specific command ever having been given, there's nothing for the victim to "push against", so no reason for them to suspect foul play.

However, both versions note that there is no two-way telepathic communication. The victim cannot choose to use the link to send anything to the caster. The caster can use the victim as a kind of scrying device, as described in the dominate person spell. It is unclear whether the telepathic link allows the caster to send only commands, or if other forms of communication can be sent through the link.

I would suggest (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/suggestion/) that RAI is that the link exists only for sending commands, and not for purely information messages.

[kalos72]

Exactly Segev...if I dont give him a reason to fight back/save, would he even know?

I am thinking not.

Using Dominate as a simple tool to force a link to track/follow/observer what the target does, without him ever knowing. Using a Psibond Agent to use "nudge" even would do the simplest of suggestions without prompting a save.

[Psyren]

If I'm interpreting the OP correctly, then I don't think his real question has been addressed. He's asking, I think, about a niche use of the spell.

If I'm wrong, I'm still curious about this circumstance, so please consider the question asked anyway!

This is the scenario:

Evelyn the Evil Sorceress has cast dominate person on Bob the Fighter, but has not given him any commands. Evelyn has informed him it was a telepathy spell. She is careful never to give Bob any commands, phrasing things as questions and the like, so he never once feels a compulsion, even inadvertently.

Does Bob have the freedom to act normally, since Evelyn hasn't given him any commands whatsoever? Or is he locked down as a statue until she starts ordering him to do things? If the former, does Bob know he's dominated, or can he believe (without further magics) that he's free to act however he likes, not realizing that Evelyn could take control at any moment she deigned to give him an order?

He's clearly not acting "normally," because detecting that he's under a dominate effect (even with no instructions whatsoever) is only a DC 15 check. This suggests to me that he's (un)consciously struggling, or at the very least not able to function as though nothing is amiss.

[Ashtagon]

He's clearly not acting "normally," because detecting that he's under a dominate effect (even with no instructions whatsoever) is only a DC 15 check. This suggests to me that he's (un)consciously struggling, or at the very least not able to function as though nothing is amiss.


Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

That DC 15 specifically only applies once the caster has given the dominated creature a command. Absent any commands, that DC does not apply.

Absent a specific command from the caster, the DC is 25. Presumably, the victim's thought-actions get intercepted by the spell's action-interceptor before they reach the body, and that delays things just enough to clue in people who know what to look for.

[Psyren]

That DC 15 specifically only applies once the caster has given the dominated creature a command. Absent any commands, that DC does not apply.

No, it still does, because of Sense Motive itself:


Sense Enchantment

You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.

At best you can say that, without any commands, the baseline "Sense Enchantment" DC of 25 applies, but that's still proof there's something abnormal going on.

[Ashtagon]

Odd. I always thought specific trumps general. And the text in the spell description seems far more specific. My bad.

[Psyren]

Odd. I always thought specific trumps general. And the text in the spell description seems far more specific. My bad.

"Specific trumps general" only applies when there is a conflict between two rules. In this case there isn't a conflict, rather the spell (dominate person) is clear on what happens if you try to sense motive a dominated character who has received commands, but is silent when it comes to a dominated character who hasn't. But Sense Motive itself tells you how to handle that situation - it works on every subject of a mind-affecting enchantment, whether commands have been given or not, at either DC 25 or DC 15. Those are the two options available to you in this situation, and in both cases, it means there is something off about their behavior that can be detected.

[Ashtagon]

Yes, which is why I said it would be DC 15 without any commands having been given.

[Psyren]

Yes, which is why I said it would be DC 15 without any commands having been given.

So... we agree then? Your earlier edit looks like it happened at the same time as my reply.

[Zanos]

Knowing who did it is trickier - without Spellcraft I would say they have no way of telling. Even with Spellcraft they would have to perceive the spell as it's cast.
Spellcraft actually allows you to identify spells after they were cast, DC 20+SL for spells that you can perceive or detect the effects of, and DC 25+SL for spells that you had to make a save against.

In any case I would say that the target definitely knows their will is being suppressed, they just wouldn't know the specifics. Dominate Person is nothing like Charm after all, it makes you act like an automaton and you receive telepathic commands you are compelled to obey. While you might not know that a wizard cast the 4th level spell dominate person on you anyone could probably figure out that it was pretty strange when someone mumbled some stuff in an a weird sounding language and waved their hands at them and then they were forced to do everything they say.

In the specific case of 'dominated without being given commands', I think the spell is pretty clear that people still act off. So even if you gave them a command to go about their day normally they wouldn't be acting totally normal. Plus they actively resist the spell.

I feel like there's a rule somewhere that creatures can inherently sense if spells are harmless or not though, so you can't use someones ignorance of magic to cast mind control on them while telling them its something else so they forgo their saves.

[Doctor Awkward]

Would the person being dominated necessarily KNOW he was being dominated?

That depends on what you mean by "know."

A person subject to a dominate person spells is aware that they have been exposed to a magical effect (see the general rules on magic and the "tingle effect"), though if they have no sort of magical training (RE: ranks in Spellcraft) they may not comprehend what precisely is happening or why. They are fully aware that there is a voice in their head (one-way telepathic link) that is giving them instructions that they are inexorably compelled to obey. They are aware that they are carrying out these instructions in spite of any wishes they might have to the contrary, their mind in effect a prisoner of their own body. How they outwardly behave is entirely up to the whims of the caster. If they share a common language with the caster then the person has full control to compel them to obey precisely as they wish. Intent is made clear through the use of the telepathic link. They logically must be aware of their actions in order for the spell to function as written, or the victim would not be aware that they are doing something that harms themselves or goes against their nature and thus entitles them to another saving throw.

The Rules Compendium notes on page 84, under rules for magic item activation, "A user can’t use a mentally activated item if dominated, unconscious, sleeping, turned to stone, or otherwise incapable of conscious independent thought. However, someone dominating a user could make that user use a mentally activated item or give the user free rein to use it within the bounds of other instructions."

This rather thoroughly confirms that a dominated person is fully cognizant of their situation. Though they may not be able to puzzle out why exactly it is happening without appropriate ranks in Spellcraft, instead describing the effects of the spell in vague terms: "He talked to me without speaking! I could hear him and... and I... I had to do it!!" and so on.