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Vaern
2019-10-21, 09:23 PM
I've toyed around with the idea in the past of running a Yu Yu Hakusho style campaign in which the players all die horribly at some point fairly early in the story, only to continuing play in the afterlife as they accept a quest from some powerful outsider with the promise of a true resurrection as a reward. They become more powerful as they traverse the afterlife, and eventually return to defeat the person that killed them - the big bad end guy, who was probably around level 9-10ish or something around the time he killed them.
Besides the question of what happens to an already-dead character if they die again and the obvious issue of "how are you going to have characters of different alignments waking up on the same plane?" what kind of things would you have to keep in mind for a game like this? What mechanics may become problematic?
Why is it important that the characters died? Sure, I railroaded them into their death as the DM, but why was that important to the story? Why couldn't they have just rolled up new characters and picked up where their old ones left off?

False God
2019-10-21, 09:36 PM
Well, for starters, they all wake up in "limbo", for some reason, their respective hereafters aren't letting them in. Right there we've got a hook: what's going on with the afterlife and why can't they get in? Does it only affect them?

The answer could be as simple as "Powerful Being X grabbed their souls before they could fully pass on in order to defeat the BBEG" or it could be something more complex and the BBEG is somehow tied to what's going on, and the party needs to not only defeat the BBEG, but find out whats going on and how the BBEG is connected.

Death as a spirit means destruction of the spirit, a scattering of the energies that make up the soul. If you hit -10 your soul is destroyed, your spirit scattered to the eternities. So while they have a "second chance" that most beings never get, there is great risk.

They couldn't have just "made new characters" because you explained the plot hook in advance and started with them "waking up" in the afterlife. There was no "lead in" adventure wherein you railroaded into impossible odds. Maybe discovering who killed them and hoe is part of their quest. Imply there's some kind of spiritual danger in remembering their deaths (even if its not true) which is why the Powerful Being who sends them on the Epic Quest doesn't just tell them.

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I would subject everything to "normal rules" as long as they remain in some portion of the afterlife. A spirit to another spirit is like a normal creature to a normal creature. Everything works normal because, with the exception of a few weirdo gods, the gods have endeavor to build an afterlife that is familiar and easy to process for newcomers.
-As an aside, if you extend it to the whole "nobody can get into the afterlife" it would be an easy way to limit the party from just running off willy-nilly into random afterlifes.

If their adventures take them to the material plane, then worry about ghost traits (which would be the simplest solution) then.

NichG
2019-10-21, 10:15 PM
I did this kind of afterlife campaign, but rather than have the death be in the middle and need to deal with those problems, I told the players at chargen 'also, as a final step, describe how your character died', so it was clear that the campaign would be focused on the afterlife rather than the world itself.

It wasn't a D&D cosmology, so alignments weren't an issue, but in D&D I'd e.g. have someone fish them out of the astral conduits before they hit the Styx and become petitioners.

Knaight
2019-10-21, 10:29 PM
...what happens to an already-dead character if they die again and the obvious issue of "how are you going to have characters of different alignments waking up on the same plane?" what kind of things would you have to keep in mind for a game like this? What mechanics may become problematic?
Why is it important that the characters died? Sure, I railroaded them into their death as the DM, but why was that important to the story? Why couldn't they have just rolled up new characters and picked up where their old ones left off?

In order:
1, 2) Don't use the standard D&D cosmology. That part's easy. Handling subsequent deaths is trickier, which tends to mean you either need to set up systems so they don't happen much at all or have some sort of recovery from death. This is where I like the mythic underworld option, where if you die you get dragged further into the underworld, which your companions are traveling through anyways, and so they can go get you. It'll be off course, but that's not necessarily a huge issue.

3) That's a large question, but your other questions cover the core part surprisingly well. Beyond that all the usual concerns still apply.

4) Death and resurrection mechanics in general are the big ones to keep an eye on. Also if you use D&D be careful with spells that assume the standard cosmology, items that assume the standard cosmology, etc.

5,6,7) These all have one key answer - pitch this as the core of the campaign. The whole point is that you're playing characters who have died and seek to come back. This means that killing them off early through measures that would usually be considered unfair GMing is fine, as the players are on board. This means that creating new characters isn't likely to be considered, because that's counter to the entire point. Also it starts the campaign, which makes it an important event pretty much by default.

LibraryOgre
2019-10-21, 10:52 PM
I am reminded of Knights of the Dinner Table and the Temple of Horrendous Doom, a module no one has ever completed without dying. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/121994/KoDT-Bundle-of-Trouble-vol-14?affiliate_id=315505).. because it kills you fairly early on, and your disembodied spirits then roam the module to complete it.

weckar
2019-10-21, 10:55 PM
Well, Ghostwalk explores this concept quite well.

I think I've played a game really similar to this, though. It was... bad. There was no risk or challenge once you were already dead.

Kardwill
2019-10-22, 03:30 AM
5,6,7) These all have one key answer - pitch this as the core of the campaign. The whole point is that you're playing characters who have died and seek to come back. This means that killing them off early through measures that would usually be considered unfair GMing is fine, as the players are on board. This means that creating new characters isn't likely to be considered, because that's counter to the entire point. Also it starts the campaign, which makes it an important event pretty much by default.

You could even start with them dead, and "remembering" their death during a flashback where they play it out. Or start with them with them having no memory of it, and the "character death" are played out when they regain part of their memory and gives them new information.
Or even ask them "Okay, how did you die?" and weave a short game around it, inserting the stuff they invented into your own story, if you're into shared narration :)

Knaight
2019-10-22, 04:35 AM
You could even start with them dead, and "remembering" their death during a flashback where they play it out. Or start with them with them having no memory of it, and the "character death" are played out when they regain part of their memory and gives them new information.
Or even ask them "Okay, how did you die?" and weave a short game around it, inserting the stuff they invented into your own story, if you're into shared narration :)

There's definitely all sorts of room for a non-chronological approach here, where you find out how they die afterwards - especially if the PCs aren't actually a party until after their death. This opens up some unconventional and potentially really fun party compositions which would be hard to do in other circumstances. In any case, we appear to be on pretty much the same page here on the core idea - group wide buy-in makes everything go so much smoother.

Kardwill
2019-10-22, 04:51 AM
There's definitely all sorts of room for a non-chronological approach here, where you find out how they die afterwards - especially if the PCs aren't actually a party until after their death. This opens up some unconventional and potentially really fun party compositions which would be hard to do in other circumstances. In any case, we appear to be on pretty much the same page here on the core idea - group wide buy-in makes everything go so much smoother.

Yeah, that's a fun setup with a lot of possibilities, but player buy-in on the core concept is important. Forcing them into a railroaded death for the sake of surprise would be awkward. If they agreed from the start to the core concept (playing ghost), they'll have the opportunity to play along and have fun instead of resisting it and feeling railroaded.

Pleh
2019-10-22, 05:15 AM
I told the players at chargen 'also, as a final step, describe how your character died', so it was clear that the campaign would be focused on the afterlife rather than the world itself.

This right here is gold. Instead of taking away agency from the players, use the scenario to grant them additional agency they didn't have before.

It might complicate your idea that they were all killed by the one and only BBEG, but always remember:

The players have the right to mess up your plot. They do not have the right to mess up your game.

So instead of railroading them into death, ask them to describe their own death (how they entered the game as presented).

Then the adventure can be about helping each other resolve one another's death. Instead of one BBEG, you now have as many bosses as you have players, which gives you hours of play sessions to figure out if or how they all tie back to the BBEG at the end.

Kaptin Keen
2019-10-22, 07:04 AM
I did this kind of afterlife campaign, but rather than have the death be in the middle and need to deal with those problems, I told the players at chargen 'also, as a final step, describe how your character died', so it was clear that the campaign would be focused on the afterlife rather than the world itself.

It wasn't a D&D cosmology, so alignments weren't an issue, but in D&D I'd e.g. have someone fish them out of the astral conduits before they hit the Styx and become petitioners.

I did a similar thing - a bit more ... restrictive, or focussed. I wrote an intro telling about the ninja-assassin attack at a great mansion, where all the guests were stabbed, shot and/or poisoned (most likely all of the above), after which the whole place was burned down to the ground.

Then asked the players to describe why they were there, what they were doing, and how they died.

Truth be told they were all there for the coronation of a new feudal lord - it was more a case of ... what was your connection, etc.

Oh, also my game wasn't really about the afterlife. They were all reanimated as undead. Not ... undead-undead, but their actual characters, only with ghostly powers of various sorts.

Vaern
2019-10-26, 07:33 PM
Thanks for all the input. If I ever do run a game where I intend for the party to die, I think I'll have them roll up lower-level characters, then tell them that I've changed my mind and have them redo the same characters a couple levels higher. They'll start the game dead and seeking to be resurrected.
I'll keep the lower-level characters on hand for whenever I feel it appropriate to take a break in the main game for a flashback sequence, just in case I feel like having them play through it rather than just describe the preceding events to them. This is a bit of a toss-up, though. As an extension of Pleh's input, not only do players have a right to mess up your story, but should be practically expected to do so.
As for why it's important for them to have died, I've since had an idea for a sort of item that could be incorporated into such a game. A weapon that resides in the planes of the afterlife and can only be found and claimed by wayward souls, and whose powers only work for the living. If a character is resurrected after having claimed such an item, it manifests on his person when he returns to the Material Plane. The weapon would offer bonuses to attack and damage rolls as though it had the Bane and Fiercebane properties against any creature who has killed its wielder in the past, as well as ignoring damage reduction and dealing lethal damage to creatures with the regeneration ability. In addition, any creature that these bonuses would apply to and that is dropped to 0 HP or lower from an attack by this weapon dies and remains truly dead, even creatures like liches who would normally return to life after being destroyed.
The item would, of course, be an artifact. The form it takes isn't terribly important - sword, bow, dagger, armor spike - as long as it is usable by a member of the party. Perhaps it appears before them merely as a glowing orb which, when grabbed, takes the form of whatever weapon they favor. Perhaps even a metamagic rod that applies similar effects to spells cast through it.
Thus, if the BBEG was some sort of immortal tyrant or had perhaps been on the cusp of becoming immortal when he originally killed the heroes then having such a weapon could be the only way to defeat him. This would make it important to the story that the heroes had been killed by him earlier, because this becomes a qualifying factor that allows them to kill him with their Revenant weapon later on despite his apparent immortality.

Spore
2019-10-27, 08:23 AM
Problem is, a death is almost ALWAYS an important plot point for OTHER characters in classical storytelling. The tragedy of death often lies in the inability to fulfill one's goals they had in life. Thus death as a storytelling mechanic is mostly coupled with tragic impossible goals, and the end of things.

What you are proposing is not death as a story mechanic but basically a planeswalking adventure where death is the starting point. So do not have a few inconsequential sessions while alive then ultimatively axe your characters because this makes their actions seem futile. Also don't tell them off the death adventures beforehand because else you suddenly get characters that are fine with dying. White witches, and necromancers, people whose death is very convenient to them.

King of Nowhere
2019-10-27, 05:34 PM
as for what happens when a spirit is destroied, in my cosmology they reform after a while; basically you can't kill it, merely scatter it. the only way a spirit can die for good is through apathy, by losing sense of purpose and identity, which is what keeps it together in the first place.
So, if one of your player dies, the others may have to wait for some in-game days, or they may have to make new quests to find him. death still has a cost, but it's not insurmontable

Beleriphon
2019-10-29, 04:50 PM
There's a neat game called Phoenix: Dawn Command that actually requires the characters die to do things like level up, but they only get so many resurrections. Each one makes them more powerful, but once they use that last one they're kaput. The basic setting for the game encourages pushing characters to near or past death.