"Missing" Weapon: 1d6 one handed with reach

[Damon_Tor]

So based on the selection of weapons available to us, the two-handed property adds +2 damage dice to a weapon, and the reach property deducts -1 damage dice. All the reach weapons in the game are 1d10 two-handed weapons with the exception of the whip, which is a one-handed 1d4 reach weapon. But even that makes perfect sense, as the light property appear to deduct 1 dice of damage as well. (Both finesse and versatile appear to be "free")

So based on this, it seems like the following weapon should be balanced:


Flail (Military Melee Weapon)
1d6 bludgeoning damage
Reach

Yes?

[CheddarChampion]

I'd allow it.
Just recognize it is homebrew.

[ZenBear]

I do that to the spear actually. 1d6 w/ reach and versatile (1d8), lose the thrown property (we have javelins for that).

[Fnissalot]

I do that to the spear actually. 1d6 w/ reach and versatile (1d8), lose the thrown property (we have javelins for that).

I agree, spear fits better into that slot than a flail to me. The 1d6 reach weapon is a reasonable thing in itself

[sophontteks]

The rapier does the same 1d8 as all the other 1 handed weapons, so I don't think finesse deducts anything. The light property seems to deduct 1d2 though.

[NaughtyTiger]

So based on the selection of weapons available to us, the two-handed property adds +2 damage dice to a weapon, and the reach property deducts -1 damage dice. All the reach weapons in the game are 1d10 two-handed weapons with the exception of the whip, which is a one-handed 1d4 reach weapon. But even that makes perfect sense, as the light property appear to deduct 1 dice of damage as well. (Both finesse and versatile appear to be "free")

whip is finesse, not light..

[Hruken]

I might just be completely missing your method here, but whips aren't light weapons, just finesse and reach. So finesse does deduct in that case.

Edit: ninja'ed

[clash]

whip is reach * 2 ie 15 ft reach. Hence the 2 damage die reductions. A 1d6 one-handed reach weapon should be fine.

[unusualsuspect]

whip is reach * 2 ie 15 ft reach. Hence the 2 damage die reductions. A 1d6 one-handed reach weapon should be fine.

What? No it isn't. It's a regular reach weapon, i.e. +5 to reach when attacking with it.

[CheddarChampion]

What? No it isn't. It's a regular reach weapon, i.e. +5 to reach when attacking with it.

clash might be thinking of 3.5.

[clash]

What? No it isn't. It's a regular reach weapon, i.e. +5 to reach when attacking with it.

Oh yep, your right. I could've sworn it was 15ft reach. Not sure, what I was thinking

Edit: 3.5 was probably where I got that from. I havent played 3.5 for a while but it has been equally long since I actually used a whip

[rbstr]

If you give the spear reach it should go down a die size and be a d4 weapon (or you need to make it martial).

The whip is just one of the weapons that doesn't follow the formula and it should be d6 (the hand axe is also wrong, it should be a d4. How's it different from a dagger or light hammer?). I think they thought that one-handed reach was a very strong set of properties...and it really is.

The formula is:
Start at a d6 simple weapon. Go up a die for "negative" properties (that is: makes a weapon harder to use) go down a die for "positive".
Negative: heavy, two-handed, martial
Positive: reach, light
Finesse is a freebie...you can debate if it should be. It's certainly plays into dex superiority.
Thrown is free.
Versatile is free too, it basically adds the two-handed property when you use it that way. Pretty logical

The ranged weapons are wonky. Ammunition is a "positive", loading is a "negative". The simple weapons follow the formula (except the dart) but the martials don't. Long Bow and Heavy cross bow are "missing" a die size; the Hand Crossbow is fine; the blowgun is just ass for some reason?

[Damon_Tor]

whip is finesse, not light..


I might just be completely missing your method here, but whips aren't light weapons, just finesse and reach. So finesse does deduct in that case.

I could have sworn whips were light and finesse. Huh.

[malachi]

If you give the spear reach it should go down a die size and be a d4 weapon (or you need to make it martial).

The whip is just one of the weapons that doesn't follow the formula and it should be d6 (the hand axe is also wrong, it should be a d4. How's it different from a dagger or light hammer?). I think they thought that one-handed reach was a very strong set of properties...and it really is.

The formula is:
Start at a d6 simple weapon. Go up a die for "negative" properties (that is: makes a weapon harder to use) go down a die for "positive".
Negative: heavy, two-handed, martial
Positive: reach, light
Finesse is a freebie...you can debate if it should be. It's certainly plays into dex superiority.
Thrown is free.
Versatile is free too, it basically adds the two-handed property when you use it that way. Pretty logical

The ranged weapons are wonky. Ammunition is a "positive", loading is a "negative". The simple weapons follow the formula (except the dart) but the martials don't. Long Bow and Heavy cross bow are "missing" a die size; the Hand Crossbow is fine; the blowgun is just ass for some reason?

Yeah, I noticed all of that as well when I was trying to come up with a homebrew system for 5e weapons (see link in signature for what I ended up with, while adding a few new weapon property types).

By my reasoning, weapons are either Light (d4), Versatile (d6/d8), or Heavy (d10), with basically the same analysis of "positive" and "negative" traits you came up with. But by this reasoning, the greatclub should be a 1d10, heavy, simple weapon, which gives it a place as opposed to just using a quarterstaff. Or the mace, which should at least be versatile (compare with the spear).

For ranged weapons, everything is wonky, from damage dice to range to allowed properties. For instance, hand crossbows have the 'light' property, and the dart has "thrown", when those only apply to melee weapons. Why do light crossbow and shortbow have the same range while the heavy crossbow and longbow don't, but the sling and hand crossbow do?

But after looking at all of that (and removing the irrelevant properties), it looks like one-handed ranged weapons start at d4, while two-handed start at d6.

[Chronos]

Another thing that's missing is any bludgeoning finesse weapon at all. I've seen nunchuks recommended for that slot.

[greenstone]

Another thing that's missing is any bludgeoning finesse weapon at all. I've seen nunchuks recommended for that slot.

Probably because "finesse" and "blunt instrument" do not go together…

As for a one-handed reach weapon, I suggest you go and get a long pole, put a weight on the end, and see how effective you are at consistently and accurately hitting something more than 10 feet away with only one hand. I'm guessing, "not very" to 'not at all."

[Yunru]

Probably because "finesse" and "blunt instrument" do not go together…
See any weapon that relies on momentum over brute force.
The previously mentioned Nunchuka being the most famous example.

[chainer1216]

I hate how theres no 1d8 slashing finesse weapon.

[Yunru]

I hate how theres no 1d8 slashing finesse weapon.

There is, the Katana. It just never made it past the editing room :P

[Magicspook]

There is, the Katana. It just never made it past the editing room :P

That's because it would be rediculous to say a katana is a finesse weapon.

[Zalabim]

So based on the selection of weapons available to us, the two-handed property adds +2 damage dice to a weapon, and the reach property deducts -1 damage dice. All the reach weapons in the game are 1d10 two-handed weapons with the exception of the whip, which is a one-handed 1d4 reach weapon. But even that makes perfect sense, as the light property appear to deduct 1 dice of damage as well. (Both finesse and versatile appear to be "free")

So based on this, it seems like the following weapon should be balanced:


Flail (Military Melee Weapon)
1d6 bludgeoning damage
Reach

Yes?
As mentioned, the Whip isn't light, so the one-handed reach weapons are 1d4 already. As an explanation for that, the two-handed reach weapons deal 2 less damage than the other two-handed weapons if you take the GWF style into consideration. Thus, the one-handed reach weapon also does 2 less damage than normal one-handed weapons.

For ranged weapons, everything is wonky, from damage dice to range to allowed properties. For instance, hand crossbows have the 'light' property, and the dart has "thrown", when those only apply to melee weapons.
Light does only have rules for melee weapons, but thrown is a perfectly ordinary property. The net is thrown also. It means you throw the weapon to make ranged attacks with it. The alternative is the ammunition property. And now I want a staff-sling as a melee weapon with the ammunition property.

[dreast]

The problem with a reach one hander is that it synergizes way too well with sentinel, since you can use it with a shield. As a DM, I’d rule this game-changing enough to be broken.

[Damon_Tor]

The problem with a reach one hander is that it synergizes way too well with sentinel, since you can use it with a shield. As a DM, I’d rule this game-changing enough to be broken.

It's only 1 more damage than the whip though.

[sophontteks]

It's only 1 more damage than the whip though.
Depending on how we put it, that's a lot. The whip does 2 average damage, so we can also say it does 50% more damage then the whip.

[Damon_Tor]

Depending on how we put it, that's a lot. The whip does 2 average damage, so we can also say it does 50% more damage then the whip.

Practically speaking, the whip does 5.5 average damage at level 1 and 7.5 damage by level 8 or so, so this hypothetical weapon would deal something like 15-20% more damage. Even less if we start factoring in rage, fighting styles, hunter's mark, sneak attack, etc. Ultimately the size of the dice doesn't matter all that much in the long run.

[sophontteks]

Practically speaking, the whip does 5.5 average damage at level 1 and 7.5 damage by level 8 or so, so this hypothetical weapon would deal something like 15-20% more damage. Even less if we start factoring in rage, fighting styles, hunter's mark, sneak attack, etc. Ultimately the size of the dice doesn't matter all that much in the long run.
Then we can just use the whip and be done. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

For ranged weapons, everything is wonky, from damage dice to range to allowed properties. For instance, hand crossbows have the 'light' property, and the dart has "thrown", when those only apply to melee weapons.
Thrown allows the Dart to be used as a ranged attack at all. Ranged weapons must be Ammunition or Thrown.

Finesse is the one that seems wierd at first glance, since it's already a Dex attack. But Finesse actually lets you choose between Dex or Str, Thrown doesn't do that, it just forces you to use the same stat you use if it's a melee weapon, which it is not. So Fineese is what allows the Dart to be a Str Thrown Ranged weapon (if you choose).

[Arkhios]

Flail as-is is very odd. It's a martial one-handed weapon, but non-heavy and non-versatile with a bog-standard 1d8 for damage.

Odd AND boring, I might add. Honestly, I think Flail could have at least versatile by default, even if you were to add reach and drop the damage die to 1d6.

[FrancisBean]

The problem with a reach one hander is that it synergizes way too well with sentinel, since you can use it with a shield. As a DM, I’d rule this game-changing enough to be broken.

I theorycrafted a bugbear whipper sentinel for that very purpose once. (Like most of us, I'm sure.)

And now you have me thinking about the asian man-catcher, which would basically give you much of sentinel without the feat, albeit 2-handed. I'll have to stat that out and tuck it into my homebrew folder.

[cullynthedwarf]

I theorycrafted a bugbear whipper sentinel for that very purpose once. (Like most of us, I'm sure.)


I did something similar trying to make a spiderman build, seeing how it played out in my head. The answer? Pretty well until I got to actually classing this thing.

[Hytheter]

I hate how theres no 1d8 slashing finesse weapon.

Personally I think makes some sense and wouldn't be all that game-breaking to give finesse to the longsword.

[malachi]

Personally I think makes some sense and wouldn't be all that game-breaking to give finesse to the longsword.

If the longsword was finesse, it'd probably need to have versatile removed. There aren't currently any weapons with finesse that can be used with 2 hands (other than that one double-weapon when you have that one racial feat, whatever book that's from)

[Hytheter]

If the longsword was finesse, it'd probably need to have versatile removed. There aren't currently any weapons with finesse that can be used with 2 hands (other than that one double-weapon when you have that one racial feat, whatever book that's from)

There isn't one now, but I don't see any good reason there couldn't be. It'd be another matter if it was heavy, thus giving GWM to the god-stat of dexterity, but as is I don't see why there couldn't be a two-handable finesse weapon. What's the worst that could happen? Some rogues to one point of damage more? At least then there'd be a reason for them to be proficient.

[malachi]

There isn't one now, but I don't see any good reason there couldn't be. It'd be another matter if it was heavy, thus giving GWM to the god-stat of dexterity, but as is I don't see why there couldn't be a two-handable finesse weapon. What's the worst that could happen? Some rogues to one point of damage more? At least then there'd be a reason for them to be proficient.

Oh, I agree that there's not really a mechanical problem if rogues get +1 dmg by wielding a finesse longsword in two hands. Just like it wouldn't be a mechanical problem if Sorcerers could use all simple weapons instead of the random smattering they have access to.

The thing is that 2-handed finesse seems to break the fluff archetypes the designers imagined. That is, in my mind, the only reason there shouldn't be a 2-handed finesse reason.

[Christian]

Yeah, I noticed all of that as well when I was trying to come up with a homebrew system for 5e weapons (see link in signature for what I ended up with, while adding a few new weapon property types).

By my reasoning, weapons are either Light (d4), Versatile (d6/d8), or Heavy (d10), with basically the same analysis of "positive" and "negative" traits you came up with. But by this reasoning, the greatclub should be a 1d10, heavy, simple weapon, which gives it a place as opposed to just using a quarterstaff. Or the mace, which should at least be versatile (compare with the spear).

For ranged weapons, everything is wonky, from damage dice to range to allowed properties. For instance, hand crossbows have the 'light' property, and the dart has "thrown", when those only apply to melee weapons. Why do light crossbow and shortbow have the same range while the heavy crossbow and longbow don't, but the sling and hand crossbow do?

But after looking at all of that (and removing the irrelevant properties), it looks like one-handed ranged weapons start at d4, while two-handed start at d6.

Also, by that reasoning, hand axes should do 1d4 damage. There's actually no way to justify the 1d6 it has in the weapon tables by any rational design system, since it's basically identical to the light hammer except for doing slashing rather than bludgeoning damage (damage type doesn't seem to affect the damage of any other weapon, other than the trident, which should clearly do 1d8/1d10--compare to the longsword and battleaxe).

This is a system I worked out which can replicate any of the weapons on the PHB table except for those two:



Property
Damage Score
Notes


Unarmed
0



Improvised
2



Simple
3



Martial
4



Light
-1



Versatile
1
to Versatile damage only


Heavy
1
0 if ranged


Loading
1



Two-handed
1



Ranged
-1



Reach
-1
-2 if one-handed





Total Damage Score
Damage Die


0
1


1
1d2


2
1d4


3
1d6


4
1d8


5
2d4 or 1d10


6
1d12 or 2d6



It certainly makes sense to change the greatclub to a heavy weapon doing 1d10, to differentiate from the quarterstaff.

It's somewhat hard to justify the heavy property not impacting the damage of ranged weapons; without that, the longbow should do 1d10 and the heavy crossbow 1d12. That probably would cause balance issues, which is presumably the reason the designers went that way.

The whip (going back to the OP), is another outlier, but one that's fixed by making reach modify damage by -2 for one-handed weapons. As with the longbow and heavy crossbow, we can only speculate the reasoning for this; but the fact remains that if we make a one-handed 1d6 reach weapon, the whip will be an irreconcilable outlier ... You'd have to make some other change, like adding the Light property to the whip or somesuch.

[Tanarii]

I hate how theres no 1d8 slashing finesse weapon.
I hate how there is a 1d8 piercing finesse weapon. Finesse should cost a die size.

[jas61292]

I hate how there is a 1d8 piercing finesse weapon. Finesse should cost a die size.

I agree with this so much. Dex is really good, so using it should cost something. I don't see any reason why a rapier is not just a reflavor of a short sword.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you give the spear reach it should go down a die size and be a d4 weapon (or you need to make it martial). That's what we did.

Martial Spear (not a Pike)
1d6, Reach, Versatile 1d8, Piercing


The formula is:

Start at a d6 simple weapon. Go up a die for "negative" properties (that is: makes a weapon harder to use) go down a die for "positive".
Negative: heavy, two-handed, martial
Positive: reach, light
Finesse is a freebie...you can debate if it should be. It's certainly plays into dex superiority.
Thrown is free.
Versatile is free too, it basically adds the two-handed property when you use it that way. Pretty logical

The ranged weapons are wonky.
I think Dagger gets the prize for most features. :)

[Tanarii]

I think Dagger gets the prize for most features. :)Yup. Should be:

Throwing dagger (aka Dart):
Ranged weapon 1d3, Finesse, Thrown (20/60)

Parryin' dagger:
Melee weapon 1d3, Light, Finesse

Stabbin' dagger:
Melee weapon 1d4, Light

Carvin' dagger:
Melee weapon 1d4, Finesse