Shadow Blade Shadow Sorcerer

[Istriel]

So I know there's already a lot of discussion regarding the topic of Shadow Blade and the various builds that it can work with. I'm not here to start a whole new discussion on it, just for some general feedback.

I have a level 4 shadow sorcerer that, for the next few levels, will be making extensive use of Shadow Blade. I don't plan on going the sorcadin route, so will probably drop the gish approach later on and play a more standard sorcerer, which I don't think should be an issue in terms of build progression.

Currently I have level 4 half-elf shadow sorcerer with the following (rolled) stats after racials:

Str - 9
Dex - 18
Con - 16
Int - 12
Wis - 12
Cha - 18 16

Metamagic: Quicken and Twinned

Spells:

Cantrips: BB, GFB, control flames (thematic), ray of frost, minor illusion
1st Level: Shield, Mage Armor, False Life
2nd Level: Mirror Image, Darkness (shadow origins), Shadow Blade

Basically just looking for general thoughts on if I could improve this build for the next couple levels. Will probably do the gish route for levels 4-7.

Edit: initially had Cha at 18 because of considering level 4 ASI for +2 Cha

[sophontteks]

You only have 1 sorcery point per level, and your subclass already has two very expensive metamagics built in. Quickened and twinned sound great, but you'll never have the resources to use them.

[CheddarChampion]

Taking the feat 'mobile' at level 4 will help with proccing BB. You should be able to afford it with those stats.
Twinning BB will not work often since you'll need to be within 5' of two different enemies.
Other than that, a quickened hold person/monster followed by a BB with another weapon may sometimes be more effective. Melee allies will thank you.

[Paeleus]

Though it would hurt your progression in Sorc a tad, a 1 level Fighter dip would help your early level survivability and versatility. Armor proficiency frees up a spell choice with Mage Armor. Second Wind puts off the need for False Life. If later down the line you want more BOOM, another level in fighter is stronk. I wouldn't hold off too long though.

Your reliance on your second level slots (and really all of your precious few spell choices) to maintain in melee during combat seem to be a weaker point. Couple that with your Long Rest recovery, you might be down or not participating in later combats.

Edit: I just caught the RoF cantrip. So you wont be totally out of the action, I reckon.

[Istriel]

You only have 1 sorcery point per level, and your subclass already has two very expensive metamagics built in. Quickened and twinned sound great, but you'll never have the resources to use them.

You are correct that only having 4 sorcery points makes quicken pretty expensive at a cost of 2; however, twinned only costs 1 point per spell level and 1 point for cantrips, which gives it a little more potential use. I get that twinned gets more expensive for higher level spells, but it'll only costs me 1 SP since I can't twin any of my 2nd level spells. I'm not sure why you classify it as a "very expensive metamagic" considering 1 SP is literally as cheap of a metamagic as you can have. I was initially going to take twinned and a different metamagic (maybe empower or subtle?), but I really wanted quicken before level 10 (the next time you can choose a new metamagic) and so took that one. I Appreciate the feedback; although, I would have appreciated it more if you gave some advice on how to fix the problem, rather than just saying that there was a problem.

Edit: never mind, now I see casting darkness for 2 SP and Hound of Ill Omen for 3 SP were the expensive metamagics you were talking about.


Taking the feat 'mobile' at level 4 will help with proccing BB. You should be able to afford it with those stats.
Twinning BB will not work often since you'll need to be within 5' of two different enemies.
Other than that, a quickened hold person/monster followed by a BB with another weapon may sometimes be more effective. Melee allies will thank you.

You know, I actually messed up and forgot that those stats were including using 4th level ASI for +2 Cha. I considered mobile pretty heavily actually, but since I'm planning on going a more standard sorcerer route at higher levels decided not to take it. Do you think it would still be a good choice even if I'm not going to be mixing it up in melee as much at higher levels?

[CheddarChampion]

You know, I actually messed up and forgot that those stats were including using 4th level ASI for +2 Cha. I considered mobile pretty heavily actually, but since I'm planning on going a more standard sorcerer route at higher levels decided not to take it. Do you think it would still be a good choice even if I'm not going to be mixing it up in melee as much at higher levels?

Cha+2 will make you a better sorcerer. Spell attacks and spell save DC's go up by 1 (as do Cha skills).
This helps you out with your spells of GFB, Ray of Frost, and... wow, that's it.

Mobile will make you a better BB user - you can get extra damage and/or avoid attacks of opportunity, depending on how you look at it. At level 5 that can mean 2d8 thunder damage extra or an enemy stays in its spot for a turn, a form of CC if used right.

You can still boost Cha at levels 8 and 12. Your hound of ill omen will very much help with spell save DC's at high levels when you can spare some slots/points. I say take Mobile. Getting that perfect setup will feel b***ss.

[Istriel]

Though it would hurt your progression in Sorc a tad, a 1 level Fighter dip would help your early level survivability and versatility. Armor proficiency frees up a spell choice with Mage Armor. Second Wind puts off the need for False Life. If later down the line you want more BOOM, another level in fighter is stronk. I wouldn't hold off too long though.

Your reliance on your second level slots (and really all of your precious few spell choices) to maintain in melee during combat seem to be a weaker point. Couple that with your Long Rest recovery, you might be down or not participating in later combats.

Edit: I just caught the RoF cantrip. So you wont be totally out of the action, I reckon.

I do like this concept. Do you think it will still be helpful if I essentially ditch the gish style at level 8 and higher though, or are you suggesting to go this route and continue to play a gish style at higher levels?


Cha+2 will make you a better sorcerer. Spell attacks and spell save DC's go up by 1 (as do Cha skills).
This helps you out with your spells of GFB, Ray of Frost, and... wow, that's it.

Mobile will make you a better BB user - you can get extra damage and/or avoid attacks of opportunity, depending on how you look at it. At level 5 that can mean 2d8 thunder damage extra or an enemy stays in its spot for a turn, a form of CC if used right.

You can still boost Cha at levels 8 and 12.

I cannot argue with any of this lol

[Paeleus]

I do like this concept. Do you think it will still be helpful if I essentially ditch the gish style at level 8 and higher though, or are you suggesting to go this route and continue to play a gish style at higher levels?

I think it would benefit you as an early gish and also at later levels with one more level in fighter.
Your spells known are few, it takes you a long rest to regain slots, and you are pretty squishy. While the 1 level dip's benefits will fade to semi-relevancy over time, a second level in fighter is worth it for being able to cast two spells in one turn via Action Surge. I think any caster, especially a blasty one, would love to have that ability. Quicken on steroids.

Twin Hold Person, Fireball
Fireball ×2
3×BB/GFB w/Quicken
Dispel Magic again because %*&#, they passed the save, but we need [insert spell effect] gone.

[Istriel]

Twin Hold Person, Fireball
Fireball ×2
3×BB/GFB w/Quicken
Dispel Magic again because %*&#, they passed the save, but we need [insert spell effect] gone.

Well, you’ve got me convinced. Action surge is probably worth losing the 19th level ASI for, but I doubt I’ll take this character that far so doesn’t matter anyway. Thanks for taking the time to respond! I’m thinking take fighter 1 after sorc 5. Do you think it’d be better to go fighter 1 before sorc 5 or does it not matter much?

Edit: Another question. So high SP cost and use of action surge aside and given viable targets, is there anything preventing you from action surging, twinning BB twice, and quickening GFB for a total of 5 SCAG cantrip attacks in a single turn?

[Crgaston]

Well, you’ve got me convinced. Action surge is probably worth losing the 19th level ASI for, but I doubt I’ll take this character that far so doesn’t matter anyway. Thanks for taking the time to respond! I’m thinking take fighter 1 after sorc 5. Do you think it’d be better to go fighter 1 before sorc 5 or does it not matter much?

Edit: Another question. So high SP cost and use of action surge aside and given viable targets, is there anything preventing you from action surging, twinning BB twice, and quickening GFB for a total of 5 SCAG cantrip attacks in a single turn?

I'd go for the Sorc 5 first. It's where you get a big power boost with 3rd level spells. You also get more slots to convert to SP for Quickening and Twinning.

If you're considering a 2 level dip in Fighter for offense... have you considered a 2 level dip in Rogue for defense (Bonus action Disengage after you BB) and versatility (skills/Expertise)?

Your apparent squishiness might actually incentivise enemies to pursue you after you've BBed them and Disengaged, triggering the rider damage from BB, or depriving them of a melee attack if they stay put.

Your actual squishiness means that you won't want to hang around in melee, even with Fighter levels, and withdrawing without Disengaging risks an AoO that could end your Concentration on Shadow Blade.

[Istriel]

If you're considering a 2 level dip in Fighter for offense... have you considered a 2 level dip in Rogue for defense (Bonus action Disengage after you BB) and versatility (skills/Expertise)?


The skill expertise would definitely be nice, but I think I'm going to take the advice to take the Mobile feat, which makes the bonus action disengage not as necessary. It would still be better, as disengage works against all OAs, but I'm not sure it would be worth the 2 level dip if I'm also taking a 2 level dip in fighter. If you're proposing to take rogue 2 instead of fighter 2, then perhaps one would do that and forgo Mobile. Maybe at some point I will take rouge 1 for expertise in stealth and perception, but I like the fighter 2 dip + Mobile build. Definitely a good alternate route to consider though. Thanks!

[Paeleus]

Well, you’ve got me convinced. Action surge is probably worth losing the 19th level ASI for, but I doubt I’ll take this character that far so doesn’t matter anyway. Thanks for taking the time to respond! I’m thinking take fighter 1 after sorc 5. Do you think it’d be better to go fighter 1 before sorc 5 or does it not matter much?

Edit: Another question. So high SP cost and use of action surge aside and given viable targets, is there anything preventing you from action surging, twinning BB twice, and quickening GFB for a total of 5 SCAG cantrip attacks in a single turn?

As stated above, I would wait until you get your 3rd level spells if you are already a 4th level Sorcerer. If you're trying to melee from level 1 or 2, I would either start fighter for the heavy armor or dip at 2nd level.

To answer second question, that is legal.

[samcifer]

Doesn't the Darkness created by the shadow sorcerer feature also require concentration like the Darkness spell? If so, the player can't use both spells at once as they both require concentration.

[Istriel]

Doesn't the Darkness created by the shadow sorcerer feature also require concentration like the Darkness spell? If so, the player can't use both spells at once as they both require concentration.

That's correct. I picked shadow origins more for theme and character backstory than optimization. Ironically, Shadow Origins is not the best sorcerer subclass if you want to use shadow blade for your entire career. Pure sorcerer isn't even the best class to make use of shadow blade either. I saw a thread somewhere in which a poster crunched the numbers, and I believe eldritch knight turns out to have the best DPR using shadow blade; although, that was at tier 4 I'm pretty sure. At mid tiers I think it was a sorcerer/paladin/warlock multiclass that made best use of it through a combination of metamagics, divine smite, and short rest spell slot regeneration.

[xen]

2 levels hexblade will cure what ails ya. Well maybe not, but seriously if you're just playing with the concept for a few levels not sure I'd invest levels in it.

[Istriel]

2 levels hexblade will cure what ails ya. Well maybe not, but seriously if you're just playing with the concept for a few levels not sure I'd invest levels in it.

Fair enough. That's why I clarified I'd only be doing the gish thing for a few levels, to see if people had ideas that help now and are useful later. If I were to take levels in warlock, I probably would go Hexblade, as it fits the character. From a mechanics standpoint, though, I don't think Hexblade is great for a Shadow Blade user, especially with a fighter dip. You can't make Shadow Blade your +Cha weapon, and you'd already have the bonus proficiencies from fighter. The curse is definitely good, no argument there, and having Shield on your warlock spell list would free up a known spell for your sorcerer spells. Wrathful Smite, however, is concentration and can't be upcast, so directly competes with Shadow Blade and isn't as good, IMO. Of course, the other benefits of a Warlock 2 dip are pretty good. You'd have an additional spell known compared to taking 2 more Sorcerer levels, 2 extra cantrips, a couple sweet Eldritch Invocations, and 2 1st level spell slots back on a short rest. Not bad at all. From a mechanics standpoint, I'd probably go Celestial for the subclass if I took 2 levels in warlock with a build like this.

Although, Hexblade's Curse stacks with the +Cha to eldritch blast Invocation. That's pretty ridiculous at higher levels, especially if you want to use some SP to quicken it. At level 5 with a 16 Cha is a potential 2d10+6+6 (23 avg). Level 12 with 20 Cha and quickening is 6d10+30+24 (87 avg) Wow. Even if you only hit with half of them thats still 43.5 avg dmg that only costs 2 SP. You can basically do that once per short rest for free, which is crazy. None of this has anything to do with Shadow Blade, however. Just normal warlock eldritch blast shenanigans with a little help from sorcery points...not sure why WotC doesn't just rename Warlock to Eldritch Blast Machine.

[Chugger]

Spent a long campaign w/ a shadow sorc, and the player often used shadow blade. I'm sorry, but you need to know that almost every time after lvl 5 he said "I cast shadow blade", I winced. What we usually needed was a lightning bolt or a slow spell, not a weapon that hits for 2d8 + only a bit more (cuz he's not a melee class) and not twice per turn. We really tried not to tell other players how to play, but sometimes we (the other players) would blurt out, "Good God, why don't you nuke them? They're lined up! You have lightning bolt! Can't you tell we're getting our rear ends chewed off in this fight? Our tank has 2 hit points!"

He'd look confused and say, "Okay, well I guess I cast a lightning bolt." But then he'd go right back to casting shadow blade in future fights. /facepalm. Fights were unnecessarily long and dangerous. He chose to be a sorc at the start, meaning other players, like me, didn't pick sorc or wiz. I wished I had chosen such because he was so rarely useful to the party.

I've seen a shadow sorc summon his Hound on a target (one he could communicate with) as a bonus action, and then as his action cast Suggestion. The Hound was ordered not to attack, which the DM accepted because the spell says something like it can only attack the target it's summoned to go after, not it must attack. This was essentially a poor man's meta for the one that imposes disability - same sp cost. I saw three targets over the course of two adventures taken out of a fight. Once they fail to suggestion, they can't save out of it on future turns. As long as the suggestion is well worded, that's it. Fail and gone.

Levitate is another lvl 2 spell that is so powerful. Useful as a utility spell (float up the cliff with a rope, tie it off and the rest of the party climbs safely up), or float yourself above the horde of mindless hungry zombies and pick them off with cantrip ---- or, if you are fighting something under 500 lbs that has no significant ranged attack, float it. It's helpless. Kill its allies first, then finish it off with ranged attacks. It can't save out.

If the party has strong meleers, hold person/monster can be very effective.

Anyway, there are so many other options besides shadow blade for a sorc. If you really wanna do this for RP or color, fine - but I hope you realize that controlling, debuffing and nuking (and buffing) are almost always much much better than S.B.

[CheddarChampion]

-Snip-

You're right. Why play what you want when there's something more effective?
C'mon, man.

[Istriel]

Anyway, there are so many other options besides shadow blade for a sorc. If you really wanna do this for RP or color, fine - but I hope you realize that controlling, debuffing and nuking (and buffing) are almost always much much better than S.B.

Wow, I did explicitly state I was only playing around with it for a few levels, planned to play a more standard sorcerer later on, and fully acknowledged that shadow sorcerer isn’t the most viable build for shadow blade.

I feel like you read the title of the thread, were upset with your own experience, and took the opportunity to rant about it against someone completely unrelated who’s just trying to have fun with a certain build for a few levels.

I really wanted to play a sorcerer and I really wanted to play a SB character. Since I don’t have the luxury of being able to play in multiple games of D&D to try all the characters I’d like to, I thought, “I bet I could get away with SB on a sorcerer for a few levels before I play the class in a more standard way.”