Roleplaying Thematic or Optimized? How do YOU create and level up your character? [Archive]

Nikushimi

2019-10-22, 06:41 PM

Hey there!

EDIT: I bring this interposing edit at the beginning to clarify a few things for those just coming to this post as how I posed my question didn't make much sense.

When I talk about "optimized" I meant do you tend to min/max by choosing everything down to the tiniest of details and by "theme" I meant do you tend to choose a base and then let the character develop naturally without any preplanned choices. Perhaps you are a bit of both. Choosing a theme or idea and then min/maxing for best effect for that idea.

I apologize for any confusion. Hindsight...you know? Lol.
END EDIT

I bring this question to any who wish to give their input.

This is out of simple curiosity to see what people prefer to do and why.

When you create your character do you think of a theme and stick to it or do you choose your character based on the best optimized build you can create with the different combinations of races and classes?

Overall, you want to have a useful character. One that feels good to play. So even when choosing a theme you tend to optimize for that theme.

Now everyone has a "theme" they try to stick with, but when I talk about theme I am talking about developing a character naturally with the theme of the story. Starting off with an idea, and then growing it as the story progresses and where it takes the character.
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For example. I created a Half-Elf Fighter. Elves in our world are magical, extremely. So, when he reached 3rd level his magic manifested and he became an Eldritch Knight. As an Eldritch Knight his personality shown through with his spells. Typically with Ice or Lightning spells for damage and protection and control for his personality of looking after his teammates. So things like Lightning Lure, Shield, Ray of Frost, and stuff like that to help control the field and protect were his go to.

Over the course of the game he came in contact with fey like creatures, and was turned into a Werejackal which saved his life and led him to this encounter. Thus, he became a Warlock of the Fey.

So, he naturally progressed in this way to become an Eldritch Knight Fey Warlock hybrid.
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On the other hand, optimization. Those who don't care about story progression or what their characters go through, but who have a final idea of what they want. For example, those who aim for the "Magic Jar" build where you basically take over a better body to increase your physical stats while keeping your mental stats, or the "Nuclear" build where you basically make Magic Missiles into literal Nukes.

Those who choose something because it's strong and does the most damage.

So when I talk about optimization I am talking about this. The act of choose your race, class, abilities, and spells if applicable for the sake of not wasting anything and becoming a monster of a character in terms of efficiency.
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So now that those are explained, where do you fall on this spectrum and why?

I personally used to be in the second category. Wanting to optimize for what I wanted to do.

But, now I fall into developing my character through their experiences. Starting off with a theme, sticking to it, and choosing options as the story goes based on their experiences.

I'd love to hear where everyone else falls on this scale and why. :D

MikeRoxTheBoat

2019-10-22, 07:20 PM

As a Goblin Shadow Monk 6/Gloomstalker Ranger 3/War Wizard 2/Barbarian 1, I definitely work with a theme. The theme being "Ninja bounty Hunter who picks up tricks from his party members to give him an edge." He's actually pretty effective, since I'm the closest thing to a tank we have. MAD like you wouldn't believe, though.

Usually, I come up with a concept first, build the character to for that concept, then optimize what I can while staying in the lines. For instance, I have an incredibly superstitious Sorecerer I'm playing right now, where it would make sense to go Hexblade Sorlock, but only if the story presents an opportunity where it makes sense. If something weird happens that makes him start looking at being a Bard or paladin, I'll follow those routes. Or just focus on being a damn good sorcerer.

OldTrees1

2019-10-22, 07:23 PM

Now everyone has a "theme" they try to stick with, but when I talk about theme I am talking about developing a character naturally with the theme of the story. Starting off with an idea, and then growing it as the story progresses and where it takes the character.

Do you mean to contrast knowing the character (personality, ability, themes, etc) before the first session vs not knowing your character until after the last session?

Do you mean to contrast making a character that is attuned with the story vs, not that?

I am struggling to see what optimization has to do with this thread. Did you mean another word?

As for myself

I tend to know most of the character after session 0. I see more about how the character reacts to the story rather than slowly discovering a stranger.
I help myself and other have the game mechanics match the story. Game design is a useful tool for helping the mechanics mechanically represent the story.

Below Rukelnikov makes a guess at what you mean.

I think he means, do you already know everything you are gonna pick for the first X levels before the first session (for, lets say, X > 6)?

I tend to know the mechanics required for representing the initial character concept. How many of the mechanical choices are know depends on how hard it is for the game system to mechanically represent that character.
In 3rd edition I knew the class and 1 feat of my Grey Necromancer (Touch of Healing & Dread Necromancer).
In 3rd edition I knew most of the feats, levels, and skill points of my Loyall Bodyguard.
In 3rd edition I only knew the class of the first few classes of my Kind Priest.
So the amount of foreknowledge varies a lot, but only because sometimes the choices are more or less relevant / required for mechanically representing the character concept.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-22, 07:30 PM

Evaar

2019-10-22, 07:33 PM

I start with a hook, whether that hook is mechanical or thematic.

Say I'm looking at Eldritch Knight and realize how good Shadow Blade and Warding Wind are for them, I'm going to start from there and think about what kinds of themes I can build around use of shadows and wind effects. Maybe that expands our to illusions. Maybe the character has some non-warlock connection to the Queen of Air and Darkness (hey, that's both wind and shadows covered). That's an example where I start with mechanics and develop the theme from there. But it came from the hook of "Hey, it'd be cool to play an eldritch knight and really explore the power of these two spells."

Conversely, thinking back on reading the Incarnations of Immortality series as a kid, I start thinking about playing a bard who's convinced there's a particular song with immense power and knowledge of the song is hidden and spread throughout the Nine Hells. Maybe Mephistopheles has started trying to track it down to challenge Asmodeus, and somehow that effort exposed part of the song to the character. All this seems like it'd be a good fit for Descent Into Avernus, so maybe I'll get to play it. Mechanically, it's obviously a bard, probably Lore. And it should have some infernal connections, although it doesn't necessarily have to be a tiefling. We should get some summoning spells with our magical secrets - hey, check it out, a lot of those spells are focused on Charisma and ability checks, perfect for a Bard! We can actually be a pretty effective fiend summoner as a bard! That's an example where I started with the theme and dig through some mechanics to make it effective in game. But the hook is "Musician/loreseeker uncovering a secret, powerful, magical song." Or, really, "Infernal bard."

Then after that I pretty much come up with a plan of how I want to develop that character over time mechanically, but I may or may not stick with that based on my experiences. I'll know the major spells I want to get and what I expect to do with my ASIs, but maybe after a few sessions I find I really need Warcaster or whatever instead.

dragoeniex

2019-10-22, 07:33 PM

My answer is either "both," or "it's complicated."

I start by picking the class I want to play, whether that's because they have a fun-and-fast or creepy-hero feel, or because they have mechanics I've been wanting to try. Preferably both.

So I know the core mechanics I'll get, now, and can turn to asking myself what kind of person would end up with these powers. What kind of life events could lead to abilities and build weaknesses? Rolling a 3 in strength once had me start planning with "okay, so, what went horribly wrong for this guy, and how has he scraped by alone through level 5?"

As the character gets stronger and has more encounters in the story, I'll be trying to optimize for my mental image of that character. What do they do best, and how can I help them do it better? But also, what wouldn't they choose to do? Leave those out, even if they're helpful.

Ex: a bard with no mind control spells ever because he believed the best manipulation was making a target truly believe they wanted to do something.

If a significant character moment happens, I'll look for a way to lean into it somehow with mechanics. If a power is gained from my class and I suddenly get an idea for what it means for the character, it's now canon.

Was Arcane Ward supposed to be an adorable, ethereal pet snake coiled around its owner's neck and darting out to take hits? No, but I guess I'm playing a lovable reptile dork now.

I think a lot of this is natural, though. Reverse engineering a character's past and traits from their fewtures is fascinating, and it can feel perfectly organic.

Nikushimi

2019-10-22, 07:52 PM

Do you mean to contrast knowing the character (personality, ability, themes, etc) before the first session vs not knowing your character until after the last session?

Do you mean to contrast making a character that is attuned with the story vs, not that?

I am struggling to see what optimization has to do with this thread. Did you mean another word?

As for myself

I tend to know most of the character after session 0. I see more about how the character reacts to the story rather than slowly discovering a stranger.
I help myself and other have the game mechanics match the story. Game design is a useful tool for helping the mechanics mechanically represent the story.

Just as the person I quoted below stated. I'm sorry if it was a bit confusing in my wording.

Basically, I'm wanting to see how people tend to build and create their characters. Whether every choice is calculated down to the last detail to get the best out of it or whether they choose what seems cool and then let the character naturally grow based on their experiences during the game. Or whether it's a bit of both where they tend to have a plan, but may change it as their characters experience the world.

So, what I mean by optimization is do people tend to more min/max things to get the best out of their character or do they just see where the game takes them and grow their character that way with what they choose when they level up and such.

I think he means, do you already know everything you are gonna pick for the first X levels before the first session (for, lets say, X > 6)?

Exactly this. I may have used the wrong wording and explanation, and that's my bad.

After reading what other people have said I think the correct way I should have worded this post is "Do you build based on how best to use the mechanics or do you tend to build based on circumstances that happen to your character?"

But yes, you summarize what I meant really well.

Do all of you tend to know what you're going for beforehand, and you stick to it to optimize yourself or do you start out with whatever seems cool and kind of let your character grow naturally, choosing options based on their growth.

AvatarVecna

2019-10-22, 08:24 PM

I can't speak for anybody else, but I tend to take a "mechanics first" approach to chargen, and I'll defend it to the end of time. I've got a lot of different ideas for characters, and a lot of them can fit this enormous swath of builds - and that swath can be widened if I'm willing to be flexible on some points of the characterization that are less central. But here's the thing:

If you handed me a random character sheet and told me to fluff/RP the build as I wished, I could probably make do, pull some character or another out of my back pocket and play 'em to the hilt. But if you have me pick a character, and then hand me a random character sheet for the mechanics, odds are it's just not gonna mesh. This is (obviously) an extreme example, but it's the hyperbolic version of the real problem: when I'm making fluff, I can make whatever I want. Whenever I'm making builds, I can make whatever the game rules allow me to. If I craft the first before I've crafted the second, it's entirely possible that something I want to be capable of as part of my backstory/personality/whatever just...doesn't....fit properly. There's some finicky aspect of the fluff that's important to the characterization in your mind, but just isn't mechanically viable without some serious fiddling. This is particularly a problem (albeit less so in 5e than previous) when your fluff is "competent at X" and the mechanics just don't allow for it at all.

Wanna play an elf version of the three musketeers? Hope you weren't planning on employing the "rapier and parrying dagger" dual-wield until level 4 or later. Wanna play a sneaky hobbitses? Make sure to bring a torch that somehow doesn't immediately give away your position, or find some spell/item that gives you darkvision. Wanna play "a boy and his dog" in a way that isn't actively punishing you for wanting a combat pet? IDK maybe get another player to be a Moon Druid, otherwise prepare to be disappointed.

And again, this is a far smaller problem in 5e than in previous editions. 4e had each class hard-locked into their particular combat role, and 3.5 was littered with trap options with skill roles hard-locked to certain classes. In 5e, most anyone can fill any skill role, and there's tons of combat role flexibility in each class; heck, there's even designers working behind the scenes to make sure that the social and exploration pillars of the game remain important. This is a mindset I've held onto mostly because I started in 3.5, and you could not start with concept before build in 3.5, not unless your backstory didn't involve an affirmative statements as to what you were actually capable of...especially if you weren't a caster. Frickin' Beowulf is statted up in 3.5 (in one of the dragon magazines), but not only is he not strong enough for either of the vague strength feats lists in his mythos, not only can he not mechanically hold his breath long enough for the sinking to Grendel's mother's lair, but if it weren't for the +4 belt of strength he was sporting, he wouldn't even be able to swim for a week in his chainmail. The game is set up to make that exact feat at least theoretically a thing you can do, and they couldn't even do that right without giving him a magic item! Starting with concept would inevitably result in your build slapping you in the face with just how bad you were at just about everything you hadn't invested serious resources into being good at.

Theodoxus

2019-10-22, 08:59 PM

Totes depends on the group, the campaign and the DM.

In my regular group, we tend to roll random. I prefer 4d6L1, in order. You never know what you'll get, optimization wise, but given Bounded Accuracy, unless you're trying to play something with all negative stats, you'll do ok to fine regardless.

In a new group (started a new homebrew game this past Sunday with 5 other folks I'd never met before), I was the last to pick a class. First guy brought a dragonborn ranger. Second guy brought a dragonborn paladin, his woman brought a sea elf druid, and the last guy brought a rogue ("I wanna go arcane trickster, if that's cool".) I looked over the group, a couple of novices to 5E, a complete noob to roleplaying in general but he really got into it (the rogue, of all people). The campaign was starting in wilderness, making a caravan run over mountains to civilization. I knew it'd be pretty rough. I figured a spell caster would be key, just deciding whether to shore up the very limited healing (moon druid wanna be, vengeance paladin in training, probable hunter) or the non-existent arcane magic - AT, probably...

I waffled for a bit, between a warlock who thought he was a ranger, and a life cleric. Figuring we didn't really need two (well, 1 1/2) wilderness types, I strolled in with my go-to: Theodoxus, the hill-dwarf Life Cleric of Meriadar (goblin god of cooking - epic!)

A bless later and everyone is worshiping my heavily Russian accented dwarf for singlehandedly allowing them to win the day against a "very deadly encounted" - per the DM (It didn't really look that hard, but we were outnumbered, and fortunate that the DMs rolls were a lot worse than ours.)

So yeah, if I need to build a mechanically perfect add-in to a game, no problem. But some of the most fun characters are the completely random ones you'd never come up with on your own. :smallwink:

Max_Killjoy

2019-10-22, 09:07 PM

The two are only conflicting if you take a narrow meaning of "optimized", as in shorthand for "optimized for raw mechanical/game power".

You can you use the same knowledge of the system to "optimize" the character to be as much like you imagine the character to be, the most faithful system-layer translation you can create of the fiction-layer character.

OldTrees1

2019-10-22, 09:09 PM

Just as the person I quoted below stated. I'm sorry if it was a bit confusing in my wording.

Basically, I'm wanting to see how people tend to build and create their characters. Whether every choice is calculated down to the last detail to get the best out of it or whether they choose what seems cool and then let the character naturally grow based on their experiences during the game. Or whether it's a bit of both where they tend to have a plan, but may change it as their characters experience the world.

So, what I mean by optimization is do people tend to more min/max things to get the best out of their character or do they just see where the game takes them and grow their character that way with what they choose when they level up and such.

Exactly this. I may have used the wrong wording and explanation, and that's my bad.

After reading what other people have said I think the correct way I should have worded this post is "Do you build based on how best to use the mechanics or do you tend to build based on circumstances that happen to your character?"

But yes, you summarize what I meant really well.

Do all of you tend to know what you're going for beforehand, and you stick to it to optimize yourself or do you start out with whatever seems cool and kind of let your character grow naturally, choosing options based on their growth.

I still feel like there are several disparate things you are measuring. Which is quite reasonable and lets us investigate them to see them clearer.
1) How much of the mechanical choices are decided beforehand vs decided when the game gives a deadline.
2) Make the best use (best for what?) of the mechanics.
3) Do you know the character beforehand or do you learn about them through circumstances.

#2
When you remember Power is not the only answer to "best use for what end?", #2 is the closest measurement to optimization. Imagine I want to make a Loyal Bodyguard, a Dungeon Guide, or Grey Necromancer, or a Kind Priest. Then #2 becomes "make the best use of the mechanics towards the end of mechanically representing a Loyal Bodyguard, a Dungeon Guide, or Grey Necromancer, or a Kind Priest". In D&D it takes me more effort/knowledge/fiddling to instantiate a mechanical representation for a Loyal Bodyguard or Dungeon Guide than it takes me to instantiate either a Kind Priest or a Grey Necromancer. So I make more use of mechanics when representing the former than I do when representing the latter. You could say I make the best use in both cases, or you could say I make a better use in former than in the latter. Maybe #2 is two things?

#1 and #3
#1 and #3 are also separate things. I have seen players that know their character concept before session 0, but delay mechanical choices until they have to decide them. On the other hand I have seen players who regularly discover fundamental details about their character through the sessions, but already have decided the mechanics long ago. And of course I have see both the person who already knew both answers and the one that delayed both answers.

Duff

2019-10-22, 10:41 PM

I usually balance the two by including a field of effectiveness in my character concept.
A character who I want to be a scout for the party would include descriptive elements like "A sneaky git who grew up fast in the back alleys of Bigtown where she regularly had to hide from the watch, other gangs of streetrats and the odd responsible adult".
Pick feats to make the character work as a scout which are consistent with that background.

Sometimes I'll concept around a particular effective combat concept. "A Batman Wizard who studies hard and makes it a point of pride to always have the right spell for the job" I'm more likely to do this in a highly optimized group or because I know I'm going to have to cover a high breadth of work.

I'm also perfectly wiling to take a concept and work with that in games with less structured adventuring groups. For example in an Ars Magica game I'm playing a Rat Bjorner (shapeshifting Wizard who turns into a rat) who prefers to work in the Lab.
Could a different character be a more effective lab rat? Sure!

Nikushimi

2019-10-23, 12:59 AM

I appreciate all these answers! It's good to get a look into the thought process behind how people typically create and play their characters.

Though, I feel a few of us have gotten into a more exposition of what I was asking, but that's okay! This is meant to be a discussion and a kind of pool of knowledge of many different players in how they create and play their characters!

I hope to hear more from other players on whether they try to choose to min/max down to every single detail or if they just choose something to start and see where it goes from there!

I have been falling more into letting a character develop naturally overtime than choose each and every level.

I have a starting point and background to build off of though such as choosing my starting race and class, but I have been seeing what happens with my characters and deciding which direction to go from there. Did my fighter run into a cleric and begin to agree with their views? Did this make them decide to study religion and by the next level up do they take a level of cleric? Did my druid find himself helping the rogue out by shapeshifting into small creatures and by the time they got to the next level they take a level in rogue cause of their experiences?

These are the types of things that I find interesting personally.

It makes for a more dynamic and realistic progression of a character I feel.

I'd love to continue to hear more from people on if they follow along the same lines of character development as me or if they decide their progression despite whatever happens to their character.

Thanks for the all the great replies! Keep them coming!

SpawnOfMorbo

2019-10-23, 01:57 AM

An optimized character is one that can contribute, effectively, to all three main phases of the game.

If you can't be of use in battle, social, and exploration... Then you are not an Optimized Character no matter how many points of damage you can do.

A 1st level V Human Barbarian with Great Weapon Master feat (or whatever it's called) is not an optimized character. Yes, it can do more damage in white room scenarios, but, that character will be run of the mill at the other two legs of the game.

A 1st level V Human Barbarian with Actor feat is more optimized than the one with Great Weapon Master.

A Barbarian can already do really good damage in combat, has a bonus to grappling, and other features that specifixally help combat. However, your rolls for exploration and social settings are lacking. You do better with exploration skills though, especially in a few levels, but you still come up lacking. Taking ritual caster or magic initiate for Find Familiar would optimize your character further in both areas.

5e is a game, like 4e, with a high floor and low ceiling. Overly optimizing one area of your character just causes the DM to have to change up their side, it becomes a cold war more or less. This doesn't mean the DM is trying to beat the Pcs, just give them a challenge.

So I try to spread my character out and be good at all three stages of the game in someway.

Randomthom

2019-10-23, 02:17 AM

I recently retired a Barbarian as I wasn't much enjoying playing it & the GM was good enough to let me switch. We worked out a way to make it happen in the story.

I had wanted to play a hexblade warlock for a while and knew the group was going to be down a front-liner so that was my template to work from. Hexblade Warlock who could go toe-to-toe.

I also knew that the main reason I got bored with Barb was down to not having many options both in combat and out and thus finding it quite dull so trying to have a decent variety of spells/abilities was key.

Now enjoying the character who is "optimised" for my fun first and to fill the group role 2nd. It's not designed as a high DPR character, mostly I'm casting armour of agathys then getting in the thick of melee. Probably grabbing Sentinel at lvl 8.

That bit I put in bold is how I think the majority of people design their characters and it can tell you a lot about how they enjoy D&D. Remember that there isn't a right way to enjoy D&D (though I'd venture there are a few wrong ones that generally involve hurting other people's fun) and some people enjoy the optimisation process. Others enjoy the discovery of who their character is in the world and might find themselves multiclassing, even non-optimally, as a result of the story. e.g. the Barbarian does some great deed and is inducted into an ancient noble order of knights. He then decides to try to become a Paladin, spending his next ASI on charisma to just about scrape in.

Nikushimi

2019-10-23, 02:44 AM

Remember that there isn't a right way to enjoy D&D (though I'd venture there are a few wrong ones that generally involve hurting other people's fun) and some people enjoy the optimisation process.

Forgive me if it sounded like I was trying to tell people there is a "right" way to play D&D. That was not my intention at all, and in fact was not trying to imply that.

I only want to know how people play and build their characters just out of simple curiosity and as a means to broaden my knowledge of how people who play D&D think. Whether they prefer to Min/Max their characters by choosing every single step before hand to optimize for a specific build whether that be a "broken" build, thematic build, or to fill a certain roll. Or whether they enjoy creating a base character concept and then progressing it naturally via the routes that happen for that character.

I was in no way trying to say there was a right or wrong way of play. Sorry if it sounds like that.

Porcupinata

2019-10-23, 05:33 AM

For me, it's around 90% theme and 10% optimisation (where "optimisation" means "not minding if they're a bit under par but making sure they're not completly disfunctional")

I almost always come up with characters visually, in that I get an image in my head of the character in action (not necessarily combat action - when I first visualised my current gnome wizard the image I had was of her sitting at a workbench tinkering with mechanical devices while an Unseen Servant and a Mage Hand held bits in place for her).

Since my group don't do multiclassing, the only real mechanical character "build" choices I have beyond first level are choosing a subclass and choosing how to spend ASIs, unless you count spell selection as a build choice.

For those, I generally choose subclass when I'm first thinking of the character, along with race, class, and background. I don't think I've ever changed my mind and gone for a different subclass to the one I initially thought of.

ASIs, on the other hand, I don't plan in advance. When it gets to the level at which I get one, I'll choose the one I get there and then. Again, using my current character as an example I chose to get the Ritual Magic (Cleric) feat at 4th for purely roleplaying reasons (she is a pious follower of the campaign's God of Craftsmanship, and got herself ordained as one of his priests).

AdAstra

2019-10-23, 06:25 AM

I'm not sure if many people use this process, but this is how I do it, and I have loads of fun with it. Boiling it down to basics, in chronological order:

1. Pick an interesting basic theme or mechanical shtick. Either a race/playstyle combo, or a specific build, or a specific build-restriction. This could be anything from "Spear-with-PAM" to "Cowboy (complete with guns)" to "Caster with a -1 in its casting stat". This gives us a base to work off of and helps ensure that our core concept is fun.

2. Figure out the most optimized and fun-to-play way to implement the theme or shtick. Basically, fill in the details not predetermined in step 1 and optimize to the greatest extent possible. As an example, for the -1 caster, my non-UA build was a Mountain Dwarf Divine Soul Sorcerer (though I managed to get away with playing as a Hill Dwarf Stone Sorc that knew Aid in the actual game). They had reasonable AC and health (great with Stone), plenty of great non-Cha-dependent spells to fill out their list (mostly buffs to take advantage of Twinned spell and Con save proficiency), and decent melee. This step is making sure you have the power and versatility to contribute to the group's success and have interesting gameplay decisions. It also gives you the framework through which to do the next step.

3. Ask yourself, "What sort of person ends up here, and how?". Work backwards from where they are now, to where they've been and who they are. This ensures you have a framework through which to speak in the character's voice, think from the character's perspective, and know the character's lived experience. For example, I decided that since my Sorcerer was a Dwarf, he should have been bestowed with power in a suitably dwarfy manner. And what's more dwarfy than a doomed last stand? Bestowed by power from the gods despite his lack of personal magnetism or luck, won through sheer dwarfy perseverance. But of course, when I got the greenlight to use Stone Sorcerer, that got me thinking again. What if instead of being a dwarf given the power of stone, what if he was stone given the power of dwarf? An old dwarven fortress, ancient and hallowed, bathed in story and song, brotherhood and battle, ale and honor. Destroyed, its defenders slain, but the sheer dwarvish presence of the place refused to die. Given life and power, this dwarf of rock would leave behind the family it knew but never met, and find companionship in battle once more.

4. Come up with a name. This one's always hard. For the dwarf I settled on Karstag. Has a dwarfy guttural-ness, and is derived from karst, a type of rock formation/terrain formed by weathering.

I've found that this process can allow me to make characters that I would never even think of if I had the person all mapped out in my head first. It works for me, and that's all that matters, but I would recommend others give it a try, you may discover someone you don't expect.

Magicspook

2019-10-23, 06:50 AM

I either create characters starting from a specific fantasy or I build them around a theme/ability that I find super interesting.

An example for the former: I built a samurai fighter character around the fantasy of a british navy officer from PotC, and an ancients pally around the fantasy of a slumbering king arthur, who awakens to serve his fey lady.

For the latter, an example would be my feylock, who was built entirely around the 'mask of many faces' invocation (his personality, backstory and the choice for the actor feat are solely based on making that invocation make sense and making it work better). In order to diversify his magic, Im multiclassing to bard so I can also get expertise in deception. For the college, I obviously pick glamour because it is a natural fit with the idea of a shapechanging fey man.

Flavour>>effectiveness, but I use any leftover space in my build to make the character work within the party. For example, I did pick agonising blast for the warlock,not because it is flavourful, but because I had an invocation left and so I wouldn't be a liability to the party.

Tldr: I either start with a fantasy and look for mechanics to support that, or start with a certain ability I want and build a character around that.

Edit: I see many people employ a similar process. Nice to see!

KorvinStarmast

2019-10-23, 07:11 AM

Basically, I'm wanting to see how people tend to build and create their characters. The sample size of the population for this inquiry is already self selected to favor optimization. That's a decent chunk of what GiTP game discussion for this, and a few other, editions of D&D tend to do.

There are a lot of different ways to approach a PC for this edition.

I mix the background, race, and class together. If we have rolled the ability scores, I then arrange them in a way that fits what the party needs. So what I first do before anything else is "what is everyone else bringing to play" and then I try to fit into a niche that rounds out that party. That is important to me: this is a team game.

I then work out a back story that informs how I got there: why did Vitali Korso end up in this village square reading a handbill that says "adventurers wanted, inquire at the Inn of Sides" rather than stay in the Hills of Aluminum and help to run the family Bauxite Business? I thus create a "why I left home" reason that is usually coordinated with the DM. I want the PC to fit into the world.

To get there, I make sure I pick a background and some bond, ideal, traid, flaw that goes harmoniously with the kind of character I want to play. I do not roll randomly for those. The backstory I write out has to fold in character background, those bits of personality trait, and how the PC ended up in the class that they did.

For a first level sorcerer or cleric, I have to decide on the sub class. So I do. For all others, I don't have to so I don't as a rule, though I'll sometimes have an idea on what I'd like to try.

--------------

For a one shot, I typically build mechanically.

------------------

To answer your title question:
Thematic or Optimized?
Yes ... but I disagree that there is an either/or choice involved. (See stormwind fallacy for a related false dichotomy)

darknite

2019-10-23, 07:16 AM

Thematic or Optimized? How do YOU create and level up your character?

Uh, both.

Nikushimi

2019-10-23, 07:25 AM

Thematic or Optimized? How do YOU create and level up your character?

Uh, both.

Yes, I realize my mistake in trying to explain what I meant.

Basically, do you tend to Min/Max your character by choosing meticulously every step before you even take it including race, class, spells (if applicable), feats, ASI, and even down the the Magic Item and Background to get the most out of something.

Or do you kind of take a more chill and relaxed approach by choosing something based on a theme and building that theme to the best of what you can?

Or do you tend to choose a race and class, make a background, and then as the story progresses decide what makes more sense for their progression in class levels and choice in ASI's.

In hindsight, I should have left out the "Thematic or Optimized" part of the title, but....eh. Can't change it now. Sorry.

But by optimized I meant Min/Max kind of style. Cause while most build to be optimized to their idea there are others who want to just break the game or make a super powerful build because that's what they enjoy doing.

That was what I was going for. Apologies for my title. At the time it made sense to me. Hindsight can be cruel.
---

On another note, I am loving hearing how most of you come to the conclusion of what kind of characters you play!

It seems the majority of you tend to build based on what your party needs and mold your character around that to something you would enjoy playing. Others I see usually choose a theme based off of something. Whether that be an idea or a fantasy character.

I love the explanations and stories people have been telling and hope to continue to get and see more from others!

Keep them coming!

da newt

2019-10-23, 07:40 AM

I'm fairly new to this but I have found that I need to ensure my characters fit my preferred play style - at the table I can't help myself but want to be one of the folks talking, problem solving and looking for creative strategies (I don't need to be leading, but I need to be involved) - but the Barb that I'm playing with dumped Int, Cha, and low Wis wouldn't approach things that way, so I've been adjusting my characters to better represent me - battlemaster, face, ambusher, etc

My natural instinct is to look at every encounter as a problem that needs an elegant solution - so I've adjusted my characters to better fit my compulsions.

I think some folks mess this up by trying to be someone they aren't - if you aren't clever, its tough to play a clever bard well (on the other hand - good on you for pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and where else can you live the fantasy?), but for me - I prefer to play a character that approaches the world the way that I do.

LentilNinja

2019-10-23, 07:49 AM

Honestly, I try to balance the two as best as possible: Build towards a concept, but be a bit lenient on the design to ensure the character isn't underpowered / a mess to play. That said, I won't make a drastic change just because mechanically it makes a better character i.e. playing a Divine Sorcerer / Warlock instead of a Cleric / Warlock.

OldTrees1

2019-10-23, 07:52 AM

Yes, I realize my mistake in trying to explain what I meant.

Basically, do you tend to Min/Max your character by choosing meticulously every step before you even take it including race, class, spells (if applicable), feats, ASI, and even down the the Magic Item and Background to get the most out of something.

This is 2 questions:
1) Do you choose meticulously every step before you even take it including race, class, spells (if applicable), feats, ASI, and even down the the Magic Item and Background?
2) Do you tend to Min/Max to get the most out of something?

Or do you kind of take a more chill and relaxed approach by choosing something based on a theme and building that theme to the best of what you can?

This is a 3rd question orthogonal to the first 2.

Or do you tend to choose a race and class, make a background, and then as the story progresses decide what makes more sense for their progression in class levels and choice in ASI's.

This is could be the other side of question 1 if you limit question 1 to choices made in advance. Otherwise it is a 4th question about delayed or advanced choices.

In hindsight, I should have left out the "Thematic or Optimized" part of the title, but....eh. Can't change it now. Sorry.

But by optimized I meant Min/Max kind of style. Cause while most build to be optimized to their idea there are others who want to just break the game or make a super powerful build because that's what they enjoy doing.

That was what I was going for. Apologies for my title. At the time it made sense to me. Hindsight can be cruel.

That is why I am trying to help out by dissecting the component questions out of your overall question

On another note, I am loving hearing how most of you come to the conclusion of what kind of characters you play!

It seems the majority of you tend to build based on what your party needs and mold your character around that to something you would enjoy playing. Others I see usually choose a theme based off of something. Whether that be an idea or a fantasy character.

I love the explanations and stories people have been telling and hope to continue to get and see more from others!

Keep them coming!

I need to remember to answer this later.

Malphegor

2019-10-23, 07:58 AM

1. Does this level make my hunger for new features be sated for a time?
2. Do I continue to be a wizard or something akin to a wizard?
3. Does it give me tentacles?
4. Does it give me the ability to lord it over our 'experienced' always a martial player with better class features than the things he plays?
5. Does it come with a pet?
6. Does this feed back into my tragic backstory in some way?
7. Can I use this power to pick up ilithids at the bar?

Eldariel

2019-10-23, 08:01 AM

The same as in AD&D (skills & powers), 3e, and PF 1e. I optimise to a goal. That is, I decide what I want to be (say, a stage magician - skills in sleight of hand but since D&D, real magic to back it up) and then I create a build that gets me that (in this case, just a Wizard with some feats to get skills; multiclass was another option but I generally dislike multiclassing on caster types in games under level 18, since that makes me miss out on all the fun stuff for much of the game - unless I'm building something silly like a Magic Missile Mage or such).

Sigreid

2019-10-23, 08:26 AM

I tend to optimize around a concept.

KorvinStarmast

2019-10-23, 08:31 AM

As a follow up: I was in a meeting yesterday, bored, so I sketched out a few notes for a possible campaign. We are still not sure if the DM can do this or not, but I'll have a character ready. The other three are a Rogue, a Warlock, and a Barbarian ... so far ...

So I threw together this in case we do get underway.

Vitaly Korso, Dwarf, Cleric of Wellness and Healing (Life Domain)
S 14 D 12 C 14 I 12 W 16 Ch 9
Background: Folk Hero
Skills: Animal Handling, Survival, Artisan's Tool(Alchemist); Land Vehicles, Insight, Medicine
(2) I saved people during a natural disaster.
Trait: If someone is in trouble, I’m always ready to lend help.
Ideal: There’s no good in pretending to be something I’m not.
Bond: I heal everday people from the misfortunes life brings to them. (variation of "I protect those who cannot protect themselves")
Flaw: The people who knew me when I was young know my shameful secret {I am a dwarf who does not like to live underground}; I can never go home again.

Cantrips:
Sacred Flame, Guidance, Resistance

We'd started down the hill with three wagon loads of ore when the ground began to shake, deep under our feat. The old wagon master yelled at me: "The mine's gonna cave in." I hobbled the donkeys and followed him back into the opening as the tremors subsided.
The next three days are still a blur in my memory: clearing rocks, dragging mangled bodies, alive and dead, away from the weakened tunnels, and trying to apply what I know of healing animals to my fellow dwarves. They call it first aid; I called it "doing the best even when you are overwhelmed." They say I saved a lot of lives, but all I remember is feeling helpless because we could not save them all.

I had never liked working in the mines. I was a wagon team mule skinner by choice, unlike the others who were forced to take on that duty to get our ores to market. I like the starlight, I like the sound of streams, I like hunting game for dinner, and I like working with the mules, ponies and oxen who pull the ore wagons ... which become supply wagons we bring home laden with necessary and trade goods.

Our clan's sector in the mines was re-opened shortly after the cave in, but other clans' livelihood was shattered. We had fewer loads and more hands who needed work. This was my chance to get out of the mines for good, so I took it. After a bitter argument with Father and Uncle Ghorse, but with the blessing of the clan patriarch Uncle Krahm, I packed up my kit and headed down, out of the hill country to the Temple of Wellness.

Brother Anklo welcomed me: I'd asked his advice in the past on how to heal our beasts' various ailments. After that disaster at the mines I wanted to be better prepared when people needed help; people always do.

That was two years ago. Brother Anklo sat me down last week, and told me that my time at the Temple was at an end.

"Vitaly," he said, "You are restless by nature.. I feel that your gifts are wasted here. These halls constrain you just as the mines and caverns did before you came to us, even though you have a passion for experimens and trying new mixtures to make medicines." I grunted, so he paused for a bit but I had nothing to say. He continued.
"There's a whole world full of hurting people out there. Go and find them; go and help them. But be careful: there's rumor of war and necromancy to the West. You may not have far to look for people in need if those rumors are true."

So here I stand in the town square, reading the handbill that asks for volunteers to aid the people of Holmewood. Inquire at the Inn of Sides, it says. I think I'll do that.

ezekielraiden

2019-10-23, 08:48 AM

Wu. The question is malformed; it presumes an exclusive-or relationship.

I optimize for flavor. I flavor my optimization. To have one without the other is like trying to make hot-leaf-juice while leaving out either the hot water or the leaves.

Guy Lombard-O

2019-10-23, 08:57 AM

I tend to pick a mechanical build or goal, including levels at which to multiclass, feats needed, optimal stat distributions to make the most of those features, etc. Then I work backwards to flesh out the mechanical bones, and imagine the kind of person who'd make sense in that build. Sort of like building a battle-bot, then festooning it with a personality.

That said, I'm slowly morphing into more of a thematic or character-oriented player as the years pass. I suspect that may be a fairly typical progression for many players. Building, playing and watching the ultimate fate of the characters ultimately seems to be more interesting and memorable than just seeing how awesome your character can be at this or that aspect of the game mechanically.

By the way, I immediately understood the jist of your question, and thought it was reasonably stated and a legitimate topic for discussion. For what that's worth. :smallsmile:

BloodSnake'sCha

2019-10-23, 08:59 AM

I do both.

I find a them and optimize around him or the other way around.

Porcupinata

2019-10-23, 09:32 AM

The sample size of the population for this inquiry is already self selected to favor optimization. That's a decent chunk of what GiTP game discussion for this, and a few other, editions of D&D tend to do.

That's something I've definitely noticed. As someone who doesn't use multiclassing and to whom "build" is a dirty word (that's hyperbole, before anyone gets on my case about it), I often feel distinctly in the minority here.

prabe

2019-10-23, 09:38 AM

I've worked both ways. There are some characters I've played where the ideas started as either something I wanted them to be able to do or as something I found in the mechanics that looked interesting. There are other characters I've played where there was a backstory and other character stuff I wanted to explore in the context of the game setting. There have been a few where both approaches were in play more or less simultaneously. I'm capable of finding niches to exploit in a game, but these days I try not to do that any more than necessary.

darknite

2019-10-23, 10:27 AM

To be honest, I look more at optimization before character. I like playing in character but I don't invest as much into it as I used to. The issue I've found in 4 decades of playing D&D is that most games just don't give a cr@p about the details you've put into your character whereas surviving and winning battles is pretty much an A-List activity. So I make PCs that can do that and also have enough character hooks that I'm having fun playing them but not depending on those characteristics to really drive anything in the story. If it happens, great, but I'm not holding my breath.

Waterdeep Merch

2019-10-23, 10:32 AM

I start with the party- what are they playing, and what could compliment that? Occasionally I ask for a specific role first, but I prefer building according to what I think could work well with everyone. It's a cooperative game, after all.

Then I build a character that fulfills that role in a way that excites me mechanically. Something that would be fun to play, though not necessarily "powerful". And I optimize around that style to get the most out of it. It's a game, after all.

Then I dig into the lore, either through independent research for published worlds or talking to the DM directly. I try to figure out why someone like my character exists here, why they would want to join the others in their epic quests, what interesting plot hooks and events can inform their decision making and personality. I bundle it all up, often writing far too much about it, offer the cliff notes version to my DM if they prefer not to read my knock-off Tolkien, and ask what I should or could change to better suit their story and world. It's a roleplaying game, after all.

Synth

2019-10-23, 11:05 AM

Most of the time, I normally pick my character's class, subclass and assign my ability scores based around a concept that I thought of. The concept can be anything as fleshed out as a full-on backstory and personality to something as simple as a particular fighting style that I want my character to pull off. (for example, I've recently made a Rune Knight (UA) DEX Fighter purely because I enjoy the idea of him firing a flaming chain from his bow whenever he invokes the fire rune). From there, I normally pick a race and ASIs/feats that go with the character, rather than ones that simply make my character better at their primary stat.

There are a few exceptions though. If I join a campaign late and the other players desperately need a role to be filled, like a tank or a healer, then I'll try and fill that role. And if I roll particularly poorly when calculating ability scores, and my DM doesn't let me use standard array, then I'll probably pick a race/ASIs that make it so I'm not completely useless.

Damon_Tor

2019-10-23, 11:24 AM

I will usually want to roleplay a character who is competent at something. Ergo, I will develop for that character one or more competencies when I build him. If I fail to consider the mechanics and create an incompetent character, I will be unable to roleplay the character I want to roleplay.

Pixel_Kitsune

2019-10-23, 11:30 AM

I tend to plan concepts and figure out exactly what I need for the base of the concept and then let things flow from there.

For example, in my current game where I get to be a player I've stumbled into being the Aragorn of the story (Noble leader gathering an army to keep the attention away from the "Main heroes").

He started off much different. Concept Wise I wanted something that felt a bit like a Knight Radiant (Stormlight Archive). So I had planned Hexblade Warlock at least to 3 and working with the DM to change my patron from some bigger otherworldly being to a smaller spirit that was tied directly to me. He was of the Noble background but I had written in my backstory he had to leave when his parentage was found out (He was a half elf, dad was an elf).

Personality wise he was a fairly vicious ends justify the means person. He felt the nobility were worthless and needed to be replaced, violently as necessary. The earlier games had him acting that way, he slaughtered one noble when he caught the noble planning to commit a mass murder. He generally acted with a kind of dark arrogance focused more on hurting the nobles he hated than in protecting anyone, even though the goal was a better land for the people.

Queue my DM surprising me by bringing back my character's father, not as an adversary but as a father who had never wanted me to leave, but was forced by the society he was a part of to let me go when my bloodline was found out. Father was a high ranking official in the court and had even managed to change things enough to bring my mother back and marry her openly. A few RP shocks later and some stuff and my character, while still hating much of the nobility, started to see that not all of them were bad and that strengthening and changing the kingdom from within could work better and faster than a burn them all approach. This all happened before we leveled to 4.

My plan was always from him to be the party's tank, but instead of going Fighter I went Paladin. With the idea that if my father and the kingdom proves worthwhile I'd take Oath of the Crown, if not I'd go dark again and pick Conquest. Eventual goal is Warlock 4/Paladin 8, not sure after that, probably some Fighter, some Bard to fit leadership stuff, etc. But I'm definately taking the levels as they make sense to the story and the character. (IE it would have been better optimization to take at least Warlock 4 for the ASI before jumping Paladin or maybe even making the ultimate build Warlock 6-8/Paladin and pick up 3rd Level spells and 2 attacks asap.) But it made more sense in story to flit to Paladin sooner.

GlenSmash!

2019-10-23, 11:37 AM

Hey there!
When you create your character do you think of a theme and stick to it or do you choose your character based on the best optimized build you can create with the different combinations of races and classes?

https://media.makeameme.org/created/all-of-them-5c39cb.jpg

Most recently I decided to make a Rune Knight. Because It's knew and I want to try it out, and it fits with the current campaign I'm in Storm King's Thunder. So starting off it's somewhat Thematic.

I knew I'd want high Strength (for Attacks and Grappling) and Int (for Rune saving throws) So Optimized. Githyanki or Human seem like good optimization options, but not very thematic. Goliath however got me Str and Con (which is always useful) and seems very Thematic. So Thematic. Then to get the most out of Gothian I prioritized strength Con and Int. With Point Buy I can start with 17, 8, 16, 15, 8, 8 bumping Str and Int at 4 or a more balanced 17, 10, 14, 15, 18, 8 If I want o take the hit to Con, or 16, 10, 16, 14, 10, 10 If I want to take the hit to Int.

I decided on the first one to optimize main stat for attacks and grapples, Con for HP and stone's Endurance, and Int for Rune saving throws. Then I think about what that Character would look like. Strong, Tough, and Smart. Clumsy, Sheltered, and Shy. So I picked the Sage Background. So Optimized but justified with theme.

And bam I have a character.

Magicspook

2019-10-23, 11:37 AM

The sample size of the population for this inquiry is already self selected to favor optimization. That's a decent chunk of what GiTP game discussion for this, and a few other, editions of D&D tend to do.

I hate that this is true. I get super annoyed that all some people seem to be able to say is 'warforged', 'sorcadin' and 'hexblade'.

I know it's irrational, that I should let people play the way they want to play, but for some reason it makes me really annoyed.

Brookshw

2019-10-23, 11:38 AM

I lean strongly to thematics but adjust based on in-game experiences, e.g., might start intending to play a straight fighter but if the game involves gods/religion might branch out to cleric or paladin if it makes sense from a story point. Frankly, I don't see much need to optimize in this edition (not to say there was ever a "need" in previous editions).

Misterwhisper

2019-10-23, 11:48 AM

When I make a character it goes through these steps:

1. Come up with a cool concept I want to run with a whole campaign. Could be all rp based or all thematic or even both.

Ex. I recently went with the idea of having a snake centric character. No real leaning toward a class but I wanted all snake related fluff and things.

Or

I also built a character whose main goal was to be the disgraced son of a rich but not noble family and to either work my way to the top by any means I can or to destroy the family for looking down on me. Built toward sneaky ruthless manipulative killer.

Or

Never played a melee centric cleric so let’s build one and run with it.

Step 2:

What can I build the best I can to accomplish step 1.

Ex.
Well I want to be a snake guy so yuan ti makes the most sense and they are very charisma based so maybe warlock or sorcerer. Possibly a snake charmer type bard. Then I found the awaken spell, maybe I can make lay an awakened snake. A warlock who made a deal with the great night serpent to gain awareness and is an awakened snake fiend warlock chain lock for a snake familiar.

Or

Underhanded and sneaky murderer just screams rogue, he would not want to rely on anything but himself so no magic. Quiet and shady so no swashbuckler. He is patient and cunning so inquisitive sounds good. Now to make the most crazy effective inquisitive I can

Or

Melee cleric, ok warforged make a great one, built in tools. Get some stats and stuff and run with it. He is just a simple craftsman who lives for crafts and sees crafting and religious because he was created and became sentient so he wants to make things too.

Step 3:

I really don’t like multiclassing unless the plot makes perfect sense for it. I will however built something to be the best at what their theme is. It might not be op for combat but I will be amazing at what I want to do.

sithlordnergal

2019-10-23, 02:05 PM

I tend to go mechanical optimization over thematic things. I'm not too concerned about thematics, tend to ignore things like fluff. I'm basically the player who will say that technically the Druid can wear metal armor because there are no mechanical detriments mentioned in the PHB, only a small fluff thing that says Druids find wearing metal armor taboo...which isn't enough of a reason in my eyes to bar a Druid from choosing to break that taboo.

EDIT: That said, when I optimize I try to go for different builds. I'm not fond of replaying the same build over and over.

KorvinStarmast

2019-10-23, 02:26 PM

I hate that this is true. I get super annoyed that all some people seem to be able to say is 'warforged', 'sorcadin' and 'hexblade'. I know it's irrational, that I should let people play the way they want to play, but for some reason it makes me really annoyed. It took me a while to warm to it, but I will say that the passion for optimization is a way to enjoy, or engage with, the game.

And some of the tricks are kind of cool. :smallcool: (Magic Initiate/Goodberry/Life Cleric is handy with a DM who never has healing potions for sale, even though they are on the equipment list in the PHB)

What I find missing for most of those discussions is that the approach is for the character's power, not the team's/group's power.

I'd like to see more time and effort spent on how to put together class synergy with various teams. We do have some posts like that, and I really like them.

Full Disclosure:
When I play a spell caster, I usuall try to max the spell casting ability as soon as I can, because I hate it when a spell doesn't work or a monster saves. I had so many Sacred Flames fail during our first 5e campaign (2014/2015) that I still call it Suck Red Flame. :smallyuk:

The cleric I am playing in my brother's dungeon/campaign is an exception. I had an ASI to max out spell casting but instead took war caster. My focus is on support and concentration spells mostly.

Daphne

2019-10-23, 02:52 PM

I start by picking a race or subclass that I find appealing: either because I really like the flavor or something it does.

Then I choose a subclass for the race / a race for the subclass that fits the aesthetics.

Ex 1: I wanted to play a LG Aasimar, what subclass fits the character I have in mind? Oh, he wants to be a big hero and protect the common folk, so Cavalier.

Ex 2: I wanted to build an Arcane Archer, the obvious race choice was High Elf. So that's what I chose.

After that, I try to think a simple background for the character. Usually, I start from the standard options and change one or two things.

Nikushimi

2019-10-23, 03:13 PM

T.G. Oskar

2019-10-23, 04:51 PM

The sample size of the population for this inquiry is already self selected to favor optimization. That's a decent chunk of what GiTP game discussion for this, and a few other, editions of D&D tend to do.

Considering the data thus far, I'd say the sample size favors not giving a darn about the Stormwind Fallacy. That is: everyone thus far basically says "I tend to optimize around a theme", so it's a bit of both. Where your statement rings true is on the proportion of theme to optimization degree, where the ratio of optimization to theme is slightly larger. To put it simply: people here like their pies crunchy, but aren't shy with their fluff.

I incline towards the same, though I'm one of the guys that goes for a level-by-level rundown. However, with the traits from backgrounds, it helps a lot to develop a theme. For example: the Life Cleric I'm playing is a Hermit, and his discovery is, essentially, that he knows the Burning Hate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)) exists in his world. Of course, it mostly works in certain campaigns: for example, in Greyhawk, Pelor would be either schizophrenic, a complete liar, or perhaps part of a solar trinity (a "good" Pelor, an "evil" Pelor and Pholtus, who's basically neutral); in the Forgotten Realms, Pelor is a growing deity who's basically the evil counterpart of Lathander and Amaunator. My cleric was someone who used his healing powers for greed, and after his deity basically punished him, he went into exile. The Burning Hate sought to change him to his cause, and he was so terrified (he was greedy, but he was a scoundrel, not someone bent on genocide) he refused him. For his efforts, his deity (either Pelor or Lathander) allowed him to return to the flock, and he travels the world basically making amends for his previous actions. In the campaign I'm playing, he's the "faith base representative" of the adventurer's guild he's working for, and he suggested the high priest of Waterdeep to send a mission to Phandelin (the group started by doing LMoP, then switched to Tyranny of Dragons) as the guild has spearheaded its reconstruction after it was destroyed by dragons. He's already planning his retirement once the emergency with Tiamat ends (case in point; he can cast 7th level spells, so he's planning to make a permanent Temple of the Gods dedicated to Lathander in the town), and while he hasn't found a follower of the Burning Hate, there is someone who has made a mention of it. Also: Lathander seems very pleased with him. The character grew organically to be a spiritual counselor, helping the party Paladin strengthen her faith with Tempus, and also is part of the inner circle of the guild. He also loathes Thay and any of its representatives, and even though he refused to teleport towards Thay, after being essentially forced to go there, he was livid; thus, his next plan is to "bring the light of dawn to the dark land of Thay", though he knows that it won't happen by force.

In this case, the seed was creating an optimized build (an efficient healer who could contribute in battle nonetheless), and the theme was built around it. As I played it, the character grew organically, and the build has had to make some changes to compensate (mostly on the spell selection, as I replaced one or two spells I had on the list for others; for one, I had no Xanathar's Guide to Everything as I built it, so I built it mostly from the PHB, but now that I have it, I chose a few spells from it (specifically, the Dawn spell) instead of the ones I had in mind.

Conversely, I have a build specifically for Eberron that's based around a theme: a soldier of House Deneith, born in Karrnath but a devout follower of the Silver Flame, whose loyalties are divided between the three (he's very proud of his nationality and his training in Rekkenmark, but he's also extremely devout to the Silver Flame, and he is loyal to his family). His main conflict is his degree of loyalty between his family, his faith and his country. To reflect that, I chose the Mark of Sentinel (from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, though hopefully it'll reflect in Eberron: Rising of the Last War) to show he belongs to house Deneith, a Paladin as his class (even though his faith doesn't have to deal anything with the way he acquired his powers) and the Oath of the Crown as his subclass (as a show of his loyalty to both house Deneith and Karrnath). This also reflects to some of his choices, such as a battleaxe as a weapon rather than a short sword or longsword (he favors the practicality of an axe in battle). Nevertheless, he's still optimized as a tank, and has the features to show for (such as Tunnel Fighter as his Fighting Style, Sentinel as a feat, and Shield Master for both survivability and the shove effect; Mark of Sentinel eventually offers the Greater Dragonmark feat which grants Warding Bond, and the Oath of the Crown offers both Warding Bond AND Spirit Guardians as Oath spells). However, they were chosen after I had my theme chosen, and I built it to reflect that.

So...it's a bit of both theme and optimization, but in the end, I incline more towards optimization than thematic builds. I just happen to work a suitable theme around it, and then let the campaign define how that character will play. I'd say the proportion thus far has been 2 to 1 in terms of optimization:theme, but I've played more thematic builds than optimized builds (the three times I've actually played 5e instead of DM it, I've played the Life Cleric 2 times and a High Elf LG Necromancer once; that's another good build I'd love to speak about), so YMMV.

Duff

2019-10-23, 04:59 PM

Additional to my above; I don't usually plan more than a level or two in advance except with broad strokes. The exception is where I look at a higher level "thing" (Spell, feat, prestige class, epic destiny) and go "I want to play with that"
In that case it's quite possible that every other decision from the creation of the character will be shaped with that goal.

So I go style over substance having chosen a style which will lead to the substance I want

OldTrees1

2019-10-23, 05:47 PM

I love hearing all of your processes!

And to OldTrees1...I understand that you are trying to break down my questions, but I think by now they are pretty straight forward for anyone reading my later entries. Though I appreciate the effort, and if it helps you or anyone else in understanding what I am asking then awesome!

I hope to hear more from others! I love seeing all the varying degrees of thoughts and ideas on the process of how they go about creating and choosing options. :D

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On another note, I am loving hearing how most of you come to the conclusion of what kind of characters you play!

It seems the majority of you tend to build based on what your party needs and mold your character around that to something you would enjoy playing. Others I see usually choose a theme based off of something. Whether that be an idea or a fantasy character.

I love the explanations and stories people have been telling and hope to continue to get and see more from others!

Keep them coming!

I have 4 (D&D 3.5) stories in mind from shortest to longest:

1) I had a concept of a priest devoted to protecting their allies. So I chose a <random default race> Cleric with typical priestly skills, some 1st level feat, and plans for Touch of Healing as a 3rd level feat and to continue to level spell levels in the future. This took minutes to plan.

2) I had a concept of a Grey Necromancer. A necromancer that would have mastery over death by way of causing, reversing, and preventing death. They were focused more on the perfection of their craft beyond the limits of convention and stereotyping. So I chose a <random default race> Dread Necromancer (at least 8 levels) with typical mage skills + Religion, the feats Arcane Disciple & Touch of Healing to give access to White Necromancy, and plans to eventually become undying. This took hours to plan.

3) I had a concept of a Dungeon Guide. A self employed professional that was providing safe(r) passage through trap riddled dungeons. Knowing this character concept was harder to implement in 3.5 (much easier in 5e now :D), I chose a Dwarf Rogue/Silver Key Prestige Class/Trapsmith Prestige Class with carefully planned skill points and a couple levels of Swordsage. This is a summary was the result of days of planning.

4) I had a concept for a non caster martial bodyguard (already something 3.5 was infamously bad at representing). Someone in charge for preventing their allies from being significantly injured. The end result was a Goliath with levels in Fighter, Barbarian, Swordsage, Warblade, and Warhulk. Their skill points were finely tuned to meet prerequisites (set externally by feats or set internally by what I needed them to be capable of to match their theme). All of their feats (and maneuvers) were planned out. This is a summary of months of planning.

Given these stories I can answer your questions:
I always design with the goal of a character concept rather than power or some other end.
I always have a good idea of who the character is before session 1 rather than as a stranger discovered during play.
I always plan the mechanics important to the mechanical representation of the character concept.
I have varied in how much planning occurs. It depends directly on how hard it is to mechanically represent that character concept. Unneeded choices get delayed, important choices get planned.

CapnWildefyr

2019-10-23, 06:07 PM

I tend to look more at character concept. Once I know what the party needs, I think about the kind of character--race, background, general story. I try to not get too complex with the story if I can help it so it can blend in with whatever the DM wants (although no one ever bothers, right?) Then I try to optimize so the character is good at least at one thing, because getting your but kicked and trying to drain the dregs from everyone's empty healing potions gets old quick.

For example, the party needed a cleric. Im not big on roleplaying clerics usually, just not my thing, but when I saw the 'ravenlofty' haunted one background, i ended up with a tiefling follower of Kelemvor who is haunted by the ghost of an elder one and only keeps sane by keeping to rituals. (And I threw in a skin color change to alabaster white. And yes, was reading too much Lovecraft at the time.) He always makes sure he has 'living wills' for the rest of the party, so he doesn't bring someone back against their will.

Another example, i have a monk who has ended up as the party heavy. Yeah. So i made sure--especially with the crummy way I roll--that he gets a lot of attacks by taking vhuman with sentinel. I wanted Bruce Lee more than a firebender or drunk. Orphan from damara was key for backstory, so monastery of the yellow rose fit. When he got to 3rd I went with the open hand path--fits bruce lee better even though the ranged radiant attack would have been nice. As a quasi-tank I tend to get zeroed since I have to hold the front line, but haven't totally croaked yet.

Laserlight

2019-10-23, 09:17 PM

I tend to start with the build, because I want to do something that is mechanically interesting; then I figure out a personality and backstory that would go with that build.

Not always. Last year I was in CoS with a charismatic, manipulative, polyamorous noblewoman, so for the next campaign I built a shy nerd warlock who was afraid of everything, definitely including women, and really wanted no more excitement than "go to the bookstore and the tea shop", except his Lawful Evil patron had different ideas.

But usually, build comes first.

CNagy

2019-10-23, 09:29 PM

Both. Start with a build that fits the theme as the DM explains it prior to the campaign. If it turns out that we need something (the campaign takes an unexpected turn, or there is a gap in our party composition, whatever) then alter the build by adding optimized chunks of other classes that are compatible with the original class (sharing 1 or both of the multiclass stats.)

firelistener

2019-10-23, 10:58 PM

I very rarely start with a mechanical concept. I can really only think of doing this once, where I specifically chose to make a blind wizard and crafted his build around still being blind and effective. It involved a familiar, staying away from spells that require sight, and going for the Divination subclass to eventually gain different versions of magical sight. I love role playing and characterization though, so I went really hard on crafting a backstory that made those choices seem like a sensible part of the character rather than a hodge-podge of stuff picked just because I wanted to do something mechanically unique.

Most times, I start the opposite direction because it's easier for me. I'm going to insist for myself to make a character have a satisfying backstory and motivations, so I usually make those first and then pick a class and skills that accommodates my platonic ideal.

Jinxed_K

2019-10-24, 01:56 AM

Definitely thematic for me.
Feels like at times I’ve gone for suboptimal game choices just so it wouldn’t ‘break’ character concept.
I would also write backgrounds and start by choosing what asi or feats would start building that character towards the finished product.

I understand people who would want to optimize, but optimized builds just make the character cookie cutter in regards to build and have to work a narrative around it, rather than working the skills around a narrative.

TheDwarvenNerd

2019-10-24, 04:29 AM

When I create a character I go for the optimization route. I like to come up with a concept of a character, then think about how best to bring that concept to life.I'll plan out what stats to have, how many levels of what classes and when to take when, skills, feats and everything. Now with that said I also want the concept to make sense thematically. For example, I recently had some help to come up with a character to be modeled after the god Apollo. Apollo is the god of healing, poetry, light, music, and knowledge I thought how can I make this concept work. I envisioned this character to be a like a religious oracle/adviser, healing people and using divination spells and skills to gather information for the rest of the party. I decided on a half elf Divine Soul 1/Knowledge Cleric 1/Lore Bard 18. I feel this gives me the right combination of skills and abilities for my concept. I took 1 level in Knowledge Cleric to essentially give me expertise in two lore based skills (Arcana and History). Now mechanically I could have taken a level in Rogue to get Expertise in two skills (Arcana and History), but thematically it didn't make sense for my character to take a level in Rouge.

So while I do optimize the character concepts I come up with they have to make sense thematically for me as well.

Witty Username

2019-10-25, 01:46 AM

creating a character is usually me thinking of a concept and trying to make that concept work within the rules, as play goes I tend to shift my character to better fit with the party and such. I guess that is optimized thinking. Favorite pastimes are trying to make character from other media in d&d, trying to make a character off of an image, or messing with expectations and seeing what I can do with it(one character I made back in 3.5 was a LN half-orc rogue to see what I could do with that; the character was flavored as a tax collector)
Oh, there are spells that I make a habit to avoid because of how little they come up or are relentlessly weak.

Garresh

2019-10-25, 04:40 AM

I need both in varying degrees. It depends how strong my theme is though. More to the point, I want my characters to feel like fully fleshed out characters but ALSO feel powerful. I often create builds for funsies, and I have a whole bucket list of character ideas. Combined, I have some character concepts that are more loose mechanically, some that are more mechanically inclined, and some that fit both worlds.

Really, I want a character who is fun to play. If placing restrictions on myself makes a more enjoyable experience for me without ruining everyone else's fun, I'll go that route. I will optimize as much as I can without affecting my roleplay and backstory.

I think the question is a bit narrow though. Some of the most iconic characters in stories are minmaxed, if you think about it. Or they're optimized if you translated them over.

Often, mechanics can serve as inspiration, rather than limitation. I have a TON of character ideas that came about almost entirely from looking at a weird build, and then thinking what would drive someone to do this? I have a fair number of character ideas floating around, waiting for the right game to use them in.