[3.5] Blessed of the Seven Sisters / List of Archons

[Thurbane]

So I recently stumbled across the Blessed of the Seven Sisters feat, which adds a bunch of spells to your class list. With a set list caster (Beguiler etc.) these should be freely available at the relevant level.

My main stumbling block is that most (all?) of the spells are from BoED, and have an Archon component, meaning you need to be an Archon to use them.

I have two questions, which I felt went beyond the scope of the Simple RAW thread:

1.) Is there any workaround or exploit to remove or ignore racial components from spells?

2.) Does this look like a complete list of Archons, and do the ECLs I have here look correct:



NAME
ECL


Archon, Lantern
5


Archon, Hound
11


Justice Archon
11


Archon, Warden
15


Archon, Word
16


Archon, Owl
18


Archon, Sword
20


Archon, Trumpet
20


Archon, Throne
24


Archon, Hammer
-


Sibyllic Guardian
Undefined?



Cheers - T

[Troacctid]

I believe two of them have an archon component and another one has a celestial component. The easiest ways to fulfill it are by taking two levels of celestial mystic or by casting holy transformation beforehand. The former requires a feat tax and losing a level of casting, while the latter requires access to a 7th level spell from the cleric spell list.

[Zaq]

Any way to get them as SLAs, like through archmage or factotum? Might be challenging because of the whole “sanctified spells aren’t really on anyone’s list” thing...

[nedz]

1) Shapechange etc.

Also, Lantern Archon ECL 5 BoED p25

[Thurbane]

Cool, thanks for the feedback and ideas. :smallsmile:

So do Alter Self et. al. let you count as the creature type for purposes like this? I'm wondering about a Tiefling or Aasimar assuming the form of an Archon - but I'm struggling to find one that is the right size and/or 5HD or less...I mean, lanetern Archon works, but it's not an ideal form for casting spells.

[Troacctid]

Cool, thanks for the feedback and ideas. :smallsmile:

So do Alter Self et. al. let you count as the creature type for purposes like this? I'm wondering about a Tiefling or Aasimar assuming the form of an Archon - but I'm struggling to find one that is the right size and/or 5HD or less...I mean, lanetern Archon works, but it's not an ideal form for casting spells.
You need to actually have the type and subtype. That means polymorph will work (if you're already an outsider), but alter self will not.

[Thurbane]

Thanks Troacctid, I always appreciate your rules knowledge.

Now the hard part will be trying to get Polymorph or Holy Transformation onto a Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage build. I guess Wands/Staves and UMD are an option. Phylactery of Change would also work, if I can convince a DM that as a 3.0 item it's not chronically under-priced.

Oops, missed the mention of Celestial Mystic in your first reply: that seems like a pretty straightforward workaround, but the feat reqs are kind of awful.

[Troacctid]

It's pretty easy for a warmage since you can just get polymorph with eclectic learning at level 11.

[nedz]

Arcane Disciple — Transformation Domain

[Troacctid]

Arcane Disciple — Transformation Domain
Doesn't work. Arcane Disciple requires you to choose a deity and then pick one of that deity's domains. There aren't any deities with the Transformation domain.

[Thurbane]

Doesn't work. Arcane Disciple requires you to choose a deity and then pick one of that deity's domains. There aren't any deities with the Transformation domain.

True. I ran into the same brick wall trying to get access to the Necromancy domain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24168287&postcount=368) from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Cruiser1]

I believe two of them have an archon component and another one has a celestial component. The easiest ways to fulfill it are by taking two levels of celestial mystic or by casting holy transformation beforehand.
Another option is level 3 of the Harper Paragon prestige class (PGtF) which explicitly allows you to cast celestial component spells (and Archon component spells if you're LG), and doesn't lose any casting levels.

If you just want to be a celestial and not an Archon, then casting lesser holy transformation will work, which is only a 4th level Cleric spell.

[Anthrowhale]

Doesn't work. Arcane Disciple requires you to choose a deity and then pick one of that deity's domains. There aren't any deities with the Transformation domain.

Yeah, Transformation domain is tricky that way.

But, Arcane Disciple [Spell Domain] could work.

[Thurbane]

Commerce, Renewal and Trickery get PAO; Animal and Scalykind get Shapechange.


Another option is level 3 of the Harper Paragon prestige class (PGtF) which explicitly allows you to cast celestial component spells (and Archon component spells if you're LG), and doesn't lose any casting levels.

If you just want to be a celestial and not an Archon, then casting lesser holy transformation will work, which is only a 4th level Cleric spell.

Awesome - I'll look into that as well. :smallsmile:


But, Arcane Disciple [Spell Domain] could work.

From memory, Anyspell/Greater can only be cast from a domain slot, and I don't think Arcane Disciple gives domain slots.

[Elves]

Doesn't work. Arcane Disciple requires you to choose a deity and then pick one of that deity's domains. There aren't any deities with the Transformation domain.

Deities are just setting-specific fluff. It's unwise to take them as a mechanical limitation.

[Kaleph]

Is there any easy way to qualify for dweomerkeeper?

In addition, rituals from savage species will also work, although most of them are beyond the budget of a lev. 9 PC...

[nedz]

Doesn't work. Arcane Disciple requires you to choose a deity and then pick one of that deity's domains. There aren't any deities with the Transformation domain.

That's a setting dependant question.

You do, literally, have to talk to your DM about their setting.

[Asmotherion]

Deities are just setting-specific fluff. It's unwise to take them as a mechanical limitation.

Both true and untrue. if the character to be generated is based on rules for a specific setting you would not be able to roll one in an other published setting (baring DM discretion). Generally you wouldn't be able to play an Artificer in FR for example.

in a custom setting that has no specified limitations on classes it's generally considered that all setting-specific choices are fair game except if the DM says otherwise.

[Anthrowhale]

From memory, Anyspell/Greater can only be cast from a domain slot, and I don't think Arcane Disciple gives domain slots.

That's right, but the meaning of 'domain slot' for non-clerics is generalized in Complete Divine.

[Telonius]

Thanks Troacctid, I always appreciate your rules knowledge.

Now the hard part will be trying to get Polymorph or Holy Transformation onto a Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage build. I guess Wands/Staves and UMD are an option. Phylactery of Change would also work, if I can convince a DM that as a 3.0 item it's not chronically under-priced.

Oops, missed the mention of Celestial Mystic in your first reply: that seems like a pretty straightforward workaround, but the feat reqs are kind of awful.

Remind me, is it possible to put a Sanctified spell into a scroll, wand, or staff? You could just cast directly from that if you hit the DC 25 UMD check for emulating a race. You would need to find a friendly Exalted character (or possibly a Warlock or Artificer) who's able to put the thing into a scroll to begin with.

[Anthrowhale]

That's right, but the meaning of 'domain slot' for non-clerics is generalized in Complete Divine.
I looked into this a bit further. The text in Complete Divine page 20 isn't needed or relevant since it's about gaining a domain through a prestige class. Instead, you just need to look at the definitions carefully. Anyspell says:
The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot.
"domain spell slot" is not a defined term in the glossary. It's mentioned with a sort-of inline definition in the cleric entry.

A cleric also gets one domain spell [slot] of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains ...

Arcane Disciple has a general statement of capability:

You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain...
So Anyspell can be learned and cast. It then provides some guidance about how that works:

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list...
giving access to Anyspell for a full-list caster. Arcane Disciple also restricts casting however:

Each day, you may ...cast... a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
so Anyspell can be cast at most once per day. The text does not say that the slot used to cast this is a domain spell slot, but that's the easiest way to resolve the general statement of capability.

[Elves]

I looked into this a bit further..

"You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain..." is interesting, but I don't agree with your conclusion. Arcane Disciple doesn't change the spell text, which clearly specifies that "the prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot". You may be able to cast anyspell, but if you don't have a domain slot, you can't benefit from the prepared spell.

Arguably, even if you begin casting it, you couldn't finish casting it, since you can't prepare a spell in a slot you don't have.

Domain wizard bonus slots would probably work, however.

[Anthrowhale]

"You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain..." is interesting, but I don't agree with your conclusion. Arcane Disciple doesn't change the spell text, which clearly specifies that "the prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot". You may be able to cast anyspell, but if you don't have a domain slot, you can't benefit from the prepared spell.

Arguably, even if you begin casting it, you couldn't finish casting it, since you can't prepare a spell in a slot you don't have.

This reminds me about the discussion of known spell here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?595869-3-5-Hathran-Rashemi-Spirit-Magic/page2) where I started out trying to apply the formal definition and eventually became convinced that there are other valid informal definitions as well.

Here it seems even murkier since there is no formal definition of 'domain spell slot' unlike the other 2 objects here (Anyspell and Arcane Disciple). Using an informal definition to negate the effect of the formally defined thing seems shaky.

[Elves]

Domain spell slots aren't formally defined but they're sufficiently demonstrated. They're separately indicated slots that can only be used to prepare spells from your possessed domains.


> Using an informal definition to negate the effect of the formally defined thing seems shaky.

It's no different from a spell with any sort of provisional requirement -- being able to learn and cast that spell doesn't mean you can ignore that requirement, or benefit from the spell in spite of it. Nothing is being negated.

[Anthrowhale]

Domain spell slots aren't formally defined but they're sufficiently demonstrated. They're separately indicated slots that can only be used to prepare spells from your possessed domains.
What do you think happens when an Initiate of Mystra casts Anyspell from a Cleric slot? Twice? What about a wizard who gains the Spell domain via a prestige class? What about a Divine Crusader for the Spell domain?

I may be just using a bigger set of demonstrations in coming up with a definition. The definition which doesn't cause logic bombs across all uses is: "Slots from which domain spells are cast. Clerics have slots set aside for this purpose."

[Elves]

Both true and untrue.
There's also this PHB line: "If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities."

You can choose whatever domains you want.


What do you think happens when an Initiate of Mystra casts Anyspell from a Cleric slot? Twice? What about a wizard who gains the Spell domain via a prestige class? What about a Divine Crusader for the Spell domain?

The definition which doesn't cause logic bombs across all uses is: "Slots from which domain spells are cast. Clerics have slots set aside for this purpose."
Initiate of Mystra spells aren't domain spells ("with this feat, you can cast them as regular cleric spells"), so this definition doesn't simplify that case.

And it's not really a logic bomb in a situation where the Spell domain is actively chosen by the character in question.

What would qualify as a malicious bomb is an arcane casting PRC with no divine casting prereq that grants access to the Spell domain specifically. But I don't think there is one.


Divine crusader is probably the strongest argument. The spells it casts are clearly domain spells. But are slots it casts them with "domain slots", or are those something specific?

And even if they are domain slots, a domain slot might still be one that can only be used for domain spells. Anyspell can't be used to disprove this, since it already entails a specific exception to "When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains."


And per my last post, I don't think Arcane Disciple's "You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain" is evidence here -- so there's no precedence of defined vs undefined.

Basically, it seems unclear.


Edit:
@OP -- Would the Ritual of Association (Savage Species page 148) work? It says "the benefit of this ritual is that the character can use items as if it were a member of that subtype", but it also says that you gain the subtype, so while probable RAI is that you gain the subtype only for that purpose, you could pedantically argue that because of its wording its use isn't restricted to that.

[Anthrowhale]

Initiate of Mystra spells aren't domain spells ("with this feat, you can cast them as regular cleric spells"), so this definition doesn't simplify that case.

It does if you regard Anyspell as both a cleric spell and a domain spell, which it would be in this case. In essence, the stored spell would reside in the same slot as the one used to cast Anyspell. Do you have an alternate definition which is functional?

Another good cornercase is a Spontaneous Cleric with the Spell domain. So we have:

Initiate of Mystra casting Anyspell off of cleric slots. This is explicitly intended to work.
Spontaneous Cleric casting Anyspell. This probably(?) should work.
Divine Crusader casting Anyspell. This probably(?) should work.
Arcane Disciple casting Anyspell. This is under dispute.
Arcane caster who acquires Spell domain from Rainbow Servant + Substitute Domain. This has different rules in Complete Divine page 20 which single out a slot/level.



And per my last post, I don't think Arcane Disciple's "You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain" is evidence here -- so there's no precedence of defined vs undefined.

I don't think it should be entirely discounted, as it's evidence of how things are supposed to work.


Basically, it seems unclear.

I agree it's unclear.

I believe we should generally interpret the rules as being functional. If you run into a possible dysfunction the natural thing to do is to look at the weakest link in the dysfunction. In this case, it seems to be the implicit definition of domain spell slot.

[Elves]

It does if you regard Anyspell as both a cleric spell and a domain spell, which it would be in this case. In essence, the stored spell would reside in the same slot as the one used to cast Anyspell. Do you have an alternate definition which is functional?

The strict RAW reading is that you cast anyspell from a non-domain slot, and the spell you use it to prepare then occupies your 3rd-level domain slot. This isn't a trap as it still provides a versatility boost.

Rereading Initiate of Mystra, there's a permissive "can" phrasing, which could mean that authorial intent was for it to work outside the domain slot, but could also mean nothing of the sort.

But either way, anyspell cast through Initiate is a "regular cleric spell" and not a domain spell, so it doesn't bear on the definition of domain slot.


Another good corner case is a Spontaneous Cleric with the Spell domain.
This is a better example. The rebuttal would be that spontaneous cleric is a UA variant rule and isn't guaranteed to work perfectly with every one of the ~200 domains in existence.

With divine crusader a similar rebuttal applies. Someone who wouldn't be able to utilize anyspell is always free to choose a different domain when they take the class. And theoretically, a character might still take the Spell domain if they can't use anyspell -- for the granted power, for another spell from it, or if they anticipate later gaining domain slots.

(In practice that wouldn't happen, but these are general considerations because divine crusader was not made specifically to work with the Spell domain.)

The real problem would be if it were incompatible with base cleric.


I believe we should generally interpret the rules as being functional. If you run into a possible dysfunction the natural thing to do is to look at the weakest link in the dysfunction. In this case, it seems to be the implicit definition of domain spell slot.

Here are my feelings on the different parts of this.

- Anyspell should not have that funky wording about domain slot. You should simply prepare the spell in the same slot as anyspell.

- If a given definition of domain slot is being formulated mainly to deal with that weird wording in anyspell, it's probably better to just use a less strict-RAW reading of anyspell.

- I lean toward domain slots being a specific thing, but only weakly -- open to the other reading.

- Divine crusader isn't obligated to work perfectly for every domain or character.

- With all that said, the nerf to Initiate of Mystra that would come from a strict RAW reading of anyspell is probably merited.

[Anthrowhale]

The strict RAW reading is that you cast anyspell from a non-domain slot, and the spell you use it to prepare then occupies your 3rd-level domain slot. This isn't a trap as it still provides a versatility boost.

For one definition of "domain spell slot". This is a rather subtle interpretation---it seems unlikely to be the one that the authors had in mind. This interpretation would also not work for a Favored Soul taking Initiate of Mystra.


But either way, anyspell cast through Initiate is a "regular cleric spell" and not a domain spell, so it doesn't bear on the definition of domain slot.

It does in the sense that the spell itself talks about a domain spell slot.


- Anyspell should not have that funky wording about domain slot. You should simply prepare the spell in the same slot as anyspell.

- If a given definition of domain slot is being formulated mainly to deal with that weird wording in anyspell, it's probably better to just use a less strict-RAW reading of anyspell.

- I lean toward domain slots being a specific thing, but only weakly -- open to the other reading.

- Divine crusader isn't obligated to work perfectly for every domain or character.

- With all that said, the nerf to Initiate of Mystra that would come from a strict RAW reading of anyspell is probably merited.
These seem reasonable.